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Shia becomes an atheist?

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On 12/6/2016 at 0:50 AM, The_Bible said:

I did not get to acknowledge your post bc i had just finished replying to the other one. And I understand you're trying to give me philosophical talks, but to simplify it you're stating that we cannot be sure of ANYTHING related to religion bc it will all be, at the end of the day, open for interpretation. Then you do not realize that you are making ABSOLUTE truth a illusion bc we are limited to not knowing anything related to God or the here-after?

Now shall your philosophy exceed your religious beliefs? You are basically saying that God was not able to give us a simple understanding on how & who goes to heaven or not. Then how does that apply to your bible when it says that God will give you UNDERSTANDING, and not frosake you in gudaince?

2 Timothy 3:15 - And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

James 1:5 - If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all [men] liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

1 John 5:20 - And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

The thing is, there is a difference in recognizing what beliefs we have, versus what is actually known.  Someone can believe wholeheartedly in the power and word of Christ while still recognizing that how He operates as a whole, is still mysterious in nature and that we ultimately lack a great deal of knowledge of Him.  To be fair.

Really this discussion comes down to being able to distinguish between what it is we believe versus what it is that we are actually aware of.

Without a doubt, even with belief that I/we are guided, I would not take this to mean that I have a full understanding of things such as, say, who goes to hell and who does not. I have my personal ideas and beliefs, but of course I have no true experience with such a thing, so I of course wouldnt truly know.

Even if a blind man, read scripture with his hands, and it said "the sky is blue", the blind man could never really know in life without being able to see it for himself, regardless of if it were true or not.  The same goes for scripture.  I feel confident in the message of Christ and it is truth to me, but to be fair, without the experience of observing people going to heaven or hell, my ideas are purely just ideas, within my own mind.  I would not claim them to be objective reality, and i certainly wouldnt go so far, as to say for example, that any demographic of people, such as all muslims, would suffer eternal damnation.

These claims, X group is going to hell, is such a bold statement and means so much.  Imagine the suffering of people in Syria.  Or beyond that, take the suffering of people all over the world and multiply it indefinitely and you wouldnt approach the horror of suffering in hell.  So, to make a bold claim that an entire religion and all its adherents are going to hell, it is a pretty horrific statement and is extraordinary. And thus, of course a bit more than a personal idea, i think would be warranted for the claim.

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^ I was waiting for another one of your "XYZ is going to hell" posts.  Explain to me this, if heaven or hell is so cut and dry, black and white, why the need for barzakh, or even Qiyamat? Just pu

@E.L King Better not to judge and assume anything about anyone when it is Allah (swt) that knows who is truly going to heaven and not mere mortals like you. And as for hadiths, please cite t

It is natural human nature to try and live a moral life. it is human nature for example, if we see a car accident, to stop and run to help, no matter what the race or background or religion of the vic

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And for the Bible, I think this in some regards, is what makes ISIS such a horrible and ignorant organization.  They take their personal ideology/belief, and have taken that belief to the next level.  They support it with the same bold attitude as those who claim X group is going to hell.  But they take it further in literally killing people who do not convert. Its sort of an exclusionist, elitist, sort of others are not worthy, kind of view.

They have lost their ability to distinguish between belief and knowledge, and this has transformed them into a complete mess in which they take staunch, literal and sort of plain sighted views of Islamic scripture.

 

But as we know Christ always turned toward the outcasts and reached out to them, He turned toward even His enemies and reached out to them with His love. So, I think its worth being careful when judging when God is going to love and when He is going to start calling people snakes.

Personally, I think every human being, even non believers, have a chance to experience Christ and to find heaven. Maybe not necessarily in a form of purgatory, but I think that, even those who lived life as non believers, may come to know Christ, even after life. Because He came to save us from our sins, and I think He continues to fight for us, for our salvation, relentlessly.

But anyway, its all just our personal views. Without really experiencing these things, they are really just thoughts.

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1 hour ago, iCambrian said:

The thing is, there is a difference in recognizing what beliefs we have, versus what is actually known.  Someone can believe wholeheartedly in the power and word of Christ while still recognizing that how He operates as a whole, is still mysterious in nature and that we ultimately lack a great deal of knowledge of Him.  To be fair.

Really this discussion comes down to being able to distinguish between what it is we believe versus what it is that we are actually aware of.

Without a doubt, even with belief that I/we are guided, I would not take this to mean that I have a full understanding of things such as, say, who goes to hell and who does not. I have my personal ideas and beliefs, but of course I have no true experience with such a thing, so I of course wouldnt truly know.

I would not claim them to be objective reality, and i certainly wouldnt go so far, as to say for example, that any demographic of people, such as all muslims, would suffer eternal damnation.

These claims, X group is going to hell, is such a bold statement and means so much.  Imagine the suffering of people in Syria.  Or beyond that, take the suffering of people all over the world and multiply it indefinitely and you wouldnt approach the horror of suffering in hell.  So, to make a bold claim that an entire religion and all its adherents are going to hell, it is a pretty horrific statement and is extraordinary. And thus, of course a bit more than a personal idea, i think would be warranted for the claim.

What is the point in believing in something just to doubt it at the end? If one truly believes the Bible is the infallible word of God there is no need to say "well I never been through the afterlife to know for sure the consequences". With that logic one can easily become a agnostic/athisst bc he has NEVER seen God. One who believss in God in the 1st place should have retain faith that his God shall not forsake him.

Once in a while, it happens to everyone, where they ponder if the existance of their God is real, but that doesn't mean that it makes God or what their scriptures claim false. You are put in this world for a purpose, and if one decides to stay in a mindstate where they give up by admitting they will never know a answer to something, then the purpose of that person is limited by his own views on not trying to put faith in something.

Now the topic here is about God so that would mean that when a individual starts to read scriptures about God being almighty, omnipotent, omnipresent, ABOVE ALL, and giving us SPECIFIC GUIDANCE to follow. One would will feel responsible of applying their God aka their beleifs unto reality. If you believe the Bible says only so and so goes to heaveny, why would you cherry pick what to believe?

That itself is limiting God by saying God only means half of his words when we all know Christians believe the Bible is the word of God.

Acts (4:10-12) - Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

 

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@iCambrian

You cannot tell a religious person that he needs to change his religious views from having FAITH in God to only going by what they know. Most ISIS simply follow their Quran and their dominantly sunni hadiths. If their book tells them to do that then that is what they will do you shouldn't fault the people, but rather the texts of their scriptures.

That's like with me you are contradicting your own biblical beliefs and adding philosophy, that goes against what your bible teaches. That would make you a hypocrite, but is my book telling you to kill you? Ofc not, but if THEY feel that they should, you shouldn't blame them but their scriptures who are against ours.

Bible claims we only have one life and we are here to serve our purpose those who don't get the chance to confess Christ are not going to a happy place. 

Proverbs 16:25 - There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Proverbs (3:5-6) - Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

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@Laayla

Sadly sister, he is absolutely incorrect, and he has been incorrect many times just like he was incorrect about the raj'a of the Imams (AS). See here:

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235024048-doubts-regarding-rajah/

How can he go against the consensus of all our major scholars from thousands of years ago till today?

I respect him as a preacher and I believe he is great to listen to, but quite frankly, some of the stuff he says are outside of the 'norm'. I have presented on this thread the sayings of our major scholars.

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Bismehe Ta3ala,

Assalam Alikum Brother E.L King,

Thank you for watching akhi.  God bless you and always striving to find haq. 

From what you heard and understood, where did he fall short or what did he say wrong?  Just so you know the context.  He was speaking to the MYC youth in Dearborn, MI.  What was inaccurate akhi? 

So you find him just speaking his opinion and what he says in not supported by Quran and Ahulbayt?  I won't ask you to list all the examples, but just for the sake of discussion, only one please where he is speaking an inaccuracy?

Thank you for your time.

M3 Salamah, FE AMIN Allah

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Shaykh Al-Mufid said in Awa'il Al-Maqalat:

"And the Imamiyya has agreed that whosoever denied the Imamate of one the Imams (AS) and rejected what Allah (SWT) obligated from the command of obedience then he is an unbeliever and a deviant deserving of eternally remaining in the Fire"

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5 hours ago, E.L King said:

Shaykh Al-Mufid said in Awa'il Al-Maqalat:

"And the Imamiyya has agreed that whosoever denied the Imamate of one the Imams (AS) and rejected what Allah (SWT) obligated from the command of obedience then he is an unbeliever and a deviant deserving of eternally remaining in the Fire"

The thing about this topic is that, if you view God in a way in which the majority of Gods creation / mankind, is "eternally remaining in fire", then it brings into question the morality of the God being worshiped.  As much as people like to say that God operates by His own morality that is beyond human understanding, its unreasonable to turn a blind eye toward countless people eternally burning in hellfire.

God implanted a form of morality within us.  Based on the morality God has given us, I think its fair to be a skeptic of belief in a God that allegedly tortures most of His beloved mankind for eternity.

I've been burned before by an iron.  It hurts. But hellfire is this eternal, skin peeling, nerve scorching, eye incinerating environment that exists indefinitely that continuously cooks its inhabitants.  A God who would send billions upon billions of people to this place, in my opinion, sounds like more of a monster, than God.

But, perhaps that is not what is being implied by Shaykh Al Mufid.

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8 hours ago, E.L King said:

Most Christians also believe non-Christians are unsaved. So why is this an issue?

Ultimately it's a pretty subjective topic. Of the various churches I've attended I'd say it's more 50/50 as to what people believe will happen to say, Muslims or other non christians.

personally, and I wouldn't use names, but I'm in general agreement with pastors I've had in that there is a chance Muslims too could find or experience or come to know God and be saved, despite being Muslim in they're worldly life.

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In a general sense, in Christianity, God so loved the world that he sent Jesus. He was sent for every saint and sinner. His love permeates the darkest shadows and deepest waters. He came for our salvation and fights for us, even for non believers. And this fight for our salvation has no limits. 

So what you believe beyond this is up to you. You have scripture but you also know that scripture can be interpreted in various ways and that scripture has passed through a flawed and imperfect hand or hands of mankind.

thus a modern western Christian viewpoint that is common.

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@E.L King

You certainly seem to enjoy condemning people to hell. It's strange that you speak on these matters as if you have certain knowledge, when that is something you just can't have on this matter. Some hadiths here and there don't allow you to say with confidence who will and won't be saved.

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Yes. Only the ignorant non-Shi'a can go to Heaven. Those who are not ignorant and have heard about Islam or Tashayyu but followed their own religions/sects, too bad for them. They will see the wrath of Allah.

What does 'heard about Islam or Tashayyu' mean? If you hear about it through a bunch of people cutting their heads open with knives while supplicating to members of the Ahlulbayt (a), does that count in your view?

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Actually she will not be allowed in Heaven. And many Verses of the Holy Qur'an explain why:

Indeed, those who disbelieve and die while they are disbelievers - upon them will be the curse of Allah and of the angels and the people, all together, Abiding eternally therein. The punishment will not be lightened for them, nor will they be reprieved. (Al-Baqarah)

Indeed, those who disbelieve and die while they are disbelievers - never would the [whole] capacity of the earth in gold be accepted from one of them if he would [seek to] ransom himself with it. For those there will be a painful punishment, and they will have no helpers. (Al-Imran)

And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers. (Al-Imran)

 

In order to disbelieve in something, you need to know what it is first. Similarly, in order to desire another religion than Islam, it's implied that you know what Islam is. So we come back to the problem of what it means to know about Islam. What if the person who first tells you about it is an ISIS sympathiser? Are you then culpable for not believing in it?

 

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It's good to use Qur'anic Verses without knowing their tafsir. Shaykh Nasir Makarem Al-Shirazi said some of the misguiders have attempted to use this Ayah to make a case that good deeds are accepted no matter what religion you are. He refutes this belief here:

http://www.hodaalquran.com/getdetails.php?sec=0&id=1996

Anyone wishing to use this verse to claim that it doesn't matter which religion you follow would certainly be misguided, but there doesn't seem to be any issue in believing that a Christian or Jew who has never had Islam presented to them properly could go to heaven if they do good deeds. This doesn't contradict the fact that anyone who seeks another religion than Islam would be damned, because then they are explicitly disbelieving in it. The interpretation that Shaykh Makarem Shirazi appears to be giving is a fairly common one, but it's a little strange, because why would Allah repeat at least three times something in the Qur'an that is obvious? Of course those Jews and Christians who did good deeds before the Prophet came would be saved. Otherwise what would be the point of previous revelations?

 

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As for the sects, the Hadith tells us the Ummah will split into 73 sects, only one will survive. The rest are in the Fire.

Saying a sect is in the fire isn't necessarily the same thing as saying that everyone in that sect will be in the fire. It could simply mean that only one sect is on the truth.

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And the Sahih Hadith says without Wilaya your deeds are not accepted by Allah. And the Sahih Hadith says whoever dies without an Imam dies the death of Jahilliya, basically the death of kufr.

You don't find it even the slightest bit odd that this isn't mentioned in the Qur'an at all? What's the point of the Qur'an telling people to do good deeds while never mentioning what it is you need to believe in order for those deeds to count? It's these kinds of interpretations that really start to make Shi'ism look completely divorced from the Qur'an.

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That's not the point though, the point is many millions of people in this world have rejected Islam knowingly. Now - will some kuffar go to Heaven? Yes, like I said, only the ignorant who haven't heard of Islam (due to extreme ignorance) or are not allowed to hear of it, like living under some Communist Regimes.

Otherwise people are not excused if they could have searched for the truth but chose not to.

 

I agree that people who rejected Islam knowingly will go to hell (unless Allah decides to have Mercy on them), but I don't think I share your view of how easy it is to simply 'search for the truth'. People will be judged by their intention and level of knowledge. They may well have searched for the truth, but never came across a proper presentation of Islam. That's not exactly hard in this day and age.

Instead of constantly talking about the non-Shia going to hell, why not look a bit closer to home at all those that have access to the truth, but commit kufr and shirk? You know, the stuff Allah says pretty explicitly in the Qur'an not to do and will send you to hell? I notice that you are far less eager to call that out for what it is. It's always easy to say that anyone who doesn't follow one's own sect is destined to hell, but it's a little harder to look around and realise that many of those within the 'saved' sect may not be all that holy after all. I would seriously question how anyone can look at what the Qur'an talks about in terms of how to be a good Muslim and how to attain salvation, and then look at mainstream Shi'ism (which is for 99.99999% of the world's population the best representation they are going to get of the truth), and then say that the two match up. Because personally, I just don't see it.

When you read all the verses in the Qur'an on the Mercy of Allah, do you really think they only apply to those who have a particular belief that isn't even mentioned in the Qur'an? 

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8 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

@E.L King

You certainly seem to enjoy condemning people to hell. It's strange that you speak on these matters as if you have certain knowledge, when that is something you just can't have on this matter. Some hadiths here and there don't allow you to say with confidence who will and won't be saved.

Indeed, because I am mainly repeating the Orthodox position of our sect. Hint: Look at what I posted from Shaykh Al-Mufid above.

8 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

What does 'heard about Islam or Tashayyu' mean? If you hear about it through a bunch of people cutting their heads open with knives while supplicating to members of the Ahlulbayt (a), does that count in your view?

In order to disbelieve in something, you need to know what it is first. Similarly, in order to desire another religion than Islam, it's implied that you know what Islam is. So we come back to the problem of what it means to know about Islam. What if the person who first tells you about it is an ISIS sympathiser? Are you then culpable for not believing in it?

No you're not cuplable for not believing it, you're culpable for not searching for the truth. If you die while searching for the truth even if you are not a believer Allah (SWT) may be merciful towards you on the Day of Judgement - but if you look at some ISIS images on TV and simply not use your brain and say "that's Islam" without researching, yeah you are culpable. 

8 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

@E.L KingAnyone wishing to use this verse to claim that it doesn't matter which religion you follow would certainly be misguided, but there doesn't seem to be any issue in believing that a Christian or Jew who has never had Islam presented to them properly could go to heaven if they do good deeds. This doesn't contradict the fact that anyone who seeks another religion than Islam would be damned, because then they are explicitly disbelieving in it. The interpretation that Shaykh Makarem Shirazi appears to be giving is a fairly common one, but it's a little strange, because why would Allah repeat at least three times something in the Qur'an that is obvious? Of course those Jews and Christians who did good deeds before the Prophet came would be saved. Otherwise what would be the point of previous revelations?

Yea they can go to Heaven, as long as they're not mustad'af. 

10 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Saying a sect is in the fire isn't necessarily the same thing as saying that everyone in that sect will be in the fire. It could simply mean that only one sect is on the truth.

Basically saying all the other sects are deviant, and if they ignore Tashayyu after it is presented to them then their place is in Hell.

12 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

@E.L KingYou don't find it even the slightest bit odd that this isn't mentioned in the Qur'an at all? What's the point of the Qur'an telling people to do good deeds while never mentioning what it is you need to believe in order for those deeds to count? It's these kinds of interpretations that really start to make Shi'ism look completely divorced from the Qur'an.

Say what? Where in the Holy Qur'an does it promote works without faith in regards to the Afterlife?

In fact I found this:

And We will regard what they have done of deeds and make them as dust dispersed. [Al-Furqan, 23]

Those who denied Our signs and the meeting of the Hereafter - their deeds have become worthless. Are they recompensed except for what they used to do? [Al-Araaf, 147]

And what do you mean Shi'ism? This is something both Sunnis and Shi'a agree, that faith is necessary for good deeds to be accepted.

25 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Instead of constantly talking about the non-Shia going to hell, why not look a bit closer to home at all those that have access to the truth, but commit kufr and shirk? You know, the stuff Allah says pretty explicitly in the Qur'an not to do and will send you to hell? I notice that you are far less eager to call that out for what it is. It's always easy to say that anyone who doesn't follow one's own sect is destined to hell, but it's a little harder to look around and realise that many of those within the 'saved' sect may not be all that holy after all. I would seriously question how anyone can look at what the Qur'an talks about in terms of how to be a good Muslim and how to attain salvation, and then look at mainstream Shi'ism (which is for 99.99999% of the world's population the best representation they are going to get of the truth), and then say that the two match up. Because personally, I just don't see it.

This is a whole next topic I don't want to get into atm.

29 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

When you read all the verses in the Qur'an on the Mercy of Allah, do you really think they only apply to those who have a particular belief that isn't even mentioned in the Qur'an? 

They do apply to the mustad'afeen. Not to those who reject the truth after hearing it, or refuse to search for the truth.

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5 minutes ago, E.L King said:

Indeed, because I am mainly repeating the Orthodox position of our sect. Hint: Look at what I posted from Shaykh Al-Mufid above.

What you are saying and what you have quoted from Shaykh Mufid are not necessarily the same thing, because once against rejecting one of the Imams implies having a certain level of knowledge to reject in the first place.

5 minutes ago, E.L King said:

No you're not cuplable for not believing it, you're culpable for not searching for the truth. If you die while searching for the truth even if you are not a believer Allah (SWT) may be merciful towards you on the Day of Judgement - but if you look at some ISIS images on TV and simply not use your brain and say "that's Islam" without researching, yeah you are culpable. 

How are you culpable if the majority of Shias practice and believe things that don't have any basis in the Qur'an in the first place? So let's say your heart desires monotheism, and you are searching for the truth, and you come across members of the 'saved sect' who tell you about how you are too low to ask anything of Allah directly, and instead need to supplicate to the Imams. And then you keep asking different members of this saved sect, and they all give you similar answers, with the only variation being that you maybe don't have to supplicate to the Imams, but it is better, then you are culpable for rejecting this as the true religion because you didn't keep researching, and instead moved on to another religion? Now, I'm not saying that there is no culpability on the part of that person, because ultimately I believe that Allah will guide those who want to be guided, but at the same time I think it's way too simplistic to simply say they are all in hell. Only Allah knows what evidence people had, and what their intentions were, so I leave it to Him to decide who is and isn't saved. I also don't know who the Prophet (s), or previous prophets may intercede for on the Day of Judgement.

What I would say is that if anyone knowingly rejects Islam, then they are damned, but in most cases it's very hard for us to make that judgement.

5 minutes ago, E.L King said:

Yea they can go to Heaven, as long as they're not mustad'af. 

Basically saying all the other sects are deviant, and if they ignore Tashayyu after it is presented to them then their place is in Hell.

Say what? Where in the Holy Qur'an does it promote works without faith in regards to the Afterlife?

In fact I found this:

And We will regard what they have done of deeds and make them as dust dispersed. [Al-Furqan, 23]

Those who denied Our signs and the meeting of the Hereafter - their deeds have become worthless. Are they recompensed except for what they used to do? [Al-Araaf, 147]

And what do you mean Shi'ism? This is something both Sunnis and Shi'a agree, that faith is necessary for good deeds to be accepted.

I don't disagree that faith is required, but the question is what you need to have faith in. The Qur'an mostly speaks of belief in Allah and the Afterlife. I'm not aware of any great emphasis on wilayah in the narrow sense of believing in the twelve Imams.

5 minutes ago, E.L King said:

This is a whole next topic I don't want to get into atm.

You don't want to get into that topic, which is more clear-cut, but instead want to endlessly go on about how only Shias will go to heaven? My view is that we should focus on ourselves, and let Allah decide who goes to heaven and hell. Of course, I reject any attempt to suggest that it doesn't really matter which religion someone follows, and that they are in some way all equal. This is nonsense, and clearly if for example someone knew Islam was the right path, but decided it was too difficult to follow, so followed some other religion instead (there are such people), then that person would at face value be setting themselves up for hellfire. Or if someone clearly states that even if there was a God, then they wouldn't worship Him (as many atheists do), then they would also appear to be headed straight for Hell. But definitive judgements about specific people can't be made by us, because we don't know what was in their heart when they died.

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15 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

What you are saying and what you have quoted from Shaykh Mufid are not necessarily the same thing, because once against rejecting one of the Imams implies having a certain level of knowledge to reject in the first place.

Yes. What have I said which contradicts that?

15 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

How are you culpable if the majority of Shias practice and believe things that don't have any basis in the Qur'an in the first place? So let's say your heart desires monotheism, and you are searching for the truth, and you come across members of the 'saved sect' who tell you about how you are too low to ask anything of Allah directly, and instead need to supplicate to the Imams. And then you keep asking different members of this saved sect, and they all give you similar answers, with the only variation being that you maybe don't have to supplicate to the Imams, but it is better, then you are culpable for rejecting this as the true religion because you didn't keep researching, and instead moved on to another religion? Now, I'm not saying that there is no culpability on the part of that person, because ultimately I believe that Allah will guide those who want to be guided, but at the same time I think it's way too simplistic to simply say they are all in hell. Only Allah knows what evidence people had, and what their intentions were, so I leave it to Him to decide who is and isn't saved. I also don't know who the Prophet (s), or previous prophets may intercede for on the Day of Judgement.

You are culpable to the extent of your ignorance. In your example, someone is searching for the truth, as long as they are searching for the truth they are under the Mercy of Allah (SWT) - and not simply reject Tashayyu without giving it much thought. Yes, if only a distorted version of Tashayyu is being promoted, then that is problematic. It would be like living in an island in the ocean, with one TV, with one anti-Islamic channel, such a situation is not clear cut. As long as the truth is being searched for, that man's situation isn't clear cut, but by rejecting Tashayyu simply due to laziness and without proper research, then yes this person is accountable.

Because there is a difference between Jahil Taqsiri, and a Jahil Muqassir, not only in Fiqh but also in theology.

22 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

I don't disagree that faith is required, but the question is what you need to have faith in. The Qur'an mostly speaks of belief in Allah and the Afterlife. I'm not aware of any great emphasis on wilayah in the narrow sense of believing in the twelve Imams.

There is no Verse in the Holy Qur'an which says "You must believe in 12 Imams after the Prophet", it doesn't exist. Give a man a Qur'an for a year and put him in an island, he is not cuplable if he doesn't believe in 12 Imams. However, one is cuplable for rejecting something which he knows the Holy Prophet revealed. Rejecting just one thing the Prophet has revealed is like rejecting his entire Message, it is kufr. So like rejecting Salat, for example. Now, most Sunnis don't "know" that the Prophet revealed Wilaya, but Sunnis will be cuplable for not "searching for the truth". If they are contempt with what they have because a distorted version of Tashayyu is the only one available, or the only one being promoted, these people might be under the Mercy of Allah.

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On 12/12/2016 at 3:20 AM, E.L King said:

@Laayla

When he said most humans will be going to Heaven, making it seem like choosing religions other than Islam is also an option that can take you to Heaven.

It seems like you didn't understand Hassanain properly. Heaven was not only made for Muslims, it was made for anyone that struggles to find the truth. All non-Muslims (whether they are, Christian, Jew, Hindu, Atheists) are potential candidates for heaven subject to the intentions of how willing they are to submit the the truth. Hell is not exclusively made for non-Muslims, but for people that reject the truth and good. Anyone that submits to the truth, or struggles to find the truth is considered a believer to God.

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23 minutes ago, Hassan Y said:

It seems like you didn't understand Hassanain properly. Heaven was not only made for Muslims, it was made for anyone that struggles to find the truth. All non-Muslims (whether they are, Christian, Jew, Hindu, Atheists) are potential candidates for heaven subject to the intentions of how willing they are to submit the the truth. Hell is not exclusively made for non-Muslims, but for people that reject the truth and good. Anyone that submits to the truth, or struggles to find the truth is considered a believer to God.

No. Heaven was made for the believers, and Hell was made for the unbelievers.

Specific cases of non-believers going to Heaven due to ignorance or due to being oppressed does not change that it is a reward for the believers, or that Hell is the abode for the kuffar. 

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1 minute ago, E.L King said:

No. Heaven was made for the believers, and Hell was made for the unbelievers.

Specific cases of non-believers going to Heaven due to ignorance or due to being oppressed does not change that it is a reward for the believers, or that Hell is the abode for the kuffar. 

No heaven was not just made for the believers, it was also made for people that struggle to find the truth. An atheist who is morally good and thinks rationally could go to heaven if all his life he/she struggled to find the truth but couldn't find it.

By the way, did you say ignorant people go to heaven? How does that make sense?

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56 minutes ago, E.L King said:

Yes. What have I said which contradicts that?

You are culpable to the extent of your ignorance. In your example, someone is searching for the truth, as long as they are searching for the truth they are under the Mercy of Allah (SWT) - and not simply reject Tashayyu without giving it much thought. Yes, if only a distorted version of Tashayyu is being promoted, then that is problematic. It would be like living in an island in the ocean, with one TV, with one anti-Islamic channel, such a situation is not clear cut. As long as the truth is being searched for, that man's situation isn't clear cut, but by rejecting Tashayyu simply due to laziness and without proper research, then yes this person is accountable.

What is proper research? Learning Arabic and reading the primary texts of yourself?

56 minutes ago, E.L King said:

There is no Verse in the Holy Qur'an which says "You must believe in 12 Imams after the Prophet", it doesn't exist. Give a man a Qur'an for a year and put him in an island, he is not cuplable if he doesn't believe in 12 Imams. However, one is cuplable for rejecting something which he knows the Holy Prophet revealed. Rejecting just one thing the Prophet has revealed is like rejecting his entire Message, it is kufr. So like rejecting Salat, for example. Now, most Sunnis don't "know" that the Prophet revealed Wilaya, but Sunnis will be cuplable for not "searching for the truth". If they are contempt with what they have because a distorted version of Tashayyu is the only one available, or the only one being promoted, these people might be under the Mercy of Allah.

You think it makes sense for the Qur'an to not itself mention something that is the very key to salvation? Take yourself out of this ultra-orthodox sectarian box you've put yourself in for a second, and really think about that. It essentially means that everything the Qur'an talks about it worthless unless you have this one belief that the Qur'an doesn't even mention. To me, there is a real problem if a belief that comes from sources outside of the Qur'an becomes more important than the beliefs that are actually in the Qur'an.

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4 hours ago, Hassan Y said:

No heaven was not just made for the believers, it was also made for people that struggle to find the truth. An atheist who is morally good and thinks rationally could go to heaven if all his life he/she struggled to find the truth but couldn't find it.

By the way, did you say ignorant people go to heaven? How does that make sense?

Ignorant meaning jahil. Someone who lives in Morrocco and works as a farmer, never seen the city in his life, poor man, barely gets by, and can't read. This guy is not the same as a guy living infront of a computer with all the knowledge and proof in front of his eyes.

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4 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

What is proper research? Learning Arabic and reading the primary texts of yourself?

You think it makes sense for the Qur'an to not itself mention something that is the very key to salvation? Take yourself out of this ultra-orthodox sectarian box you've put yourself in for a second, and really think about that. It essentially means that everything the Qur'an talks about it worthless unless you have this one belief that the Qur'an doesn't even mention. To me, there is a real problem if a belief that comes from sources outside of the Qur'an becomes more important than the beliefs that are actually in the Qur'an.

So you don't think Wilaya is key to salvation? So those who rejected Ghadir are okay? They haven't apostated? 

I believe the Holy Qur'an has mentioned Wilaya, such as in the Verse of Wilaya. The Holy Qur'an has mentioned the concept, the Sunnah explained it in detail (who are the Awliya). I believe someone that is a Sunni, and has all the proof of Wilaya infront of him, but rejects it, is going to Hell. Do you believe that or not? Or do you think Wilaya is just a "good thing to believe in" but not "key to salvation".

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5 hours ago, E.L King said:

So you don't think Wilaya is key to salvation? So those who rejected Ghadir are okay? They haven't apostated? 

No, I don't think those who rejected Ghadir are ok, because they rejected a direct command of the Prophet (s). Nobody today is in that position though.

5 hours ago, E.L King said:

I believe the Holy Qur'an has mentioned Wilaya, such as in the Verse of Wilaya. The Holy Qur'an has mentioned the concept, the Sunnah explained it in detail (who are the Awliya). I believe someone that is a Sunni, and has all the proof of Wilaya infront of him, but rejects it, is going to Hell. Do you believe that or not? Or do you think Wilaya is just a "good thing to believe in" but not "key to salvation".

I don't believe whether or not someone is going to hell is simply a matter of he proof in front of them, it's about their ability to understand the proof and their intentions. If they recognised this was the truth, but rejected it, then they may go to hell (although I don't discount Allah showing them mercy of the Prophet (s) interceding for them). But there are plenty of reasons why someone might not recognise that it is the truth. If you are brought up as a Sunni, and you are very knowledgeable about your religion, then there are plenty of reasons that could be found to not accept Shi'ism, even if you were able to see some of the flaws in Sunnism.

I think the problem here is there is a danger of losing sight of what the religion is about. It's about worshipping Allah. Now, the best way of worshipping Him is through the teachings of the Prophet (s), and the Imams are the ones who properly preserved those teachings. But ultimately the focus is still on Allah. When instead you put all the focus on believing in the Imams, then they become the focus rather than Allah. This is why the cause of so many of the problems within the Shia world, where the centre of most of the devotion is the Imams.

The concept of wilayah is in the Qur'an, but where does it say that if you don't believe in it you will go to hell? You don't think that is something worth mentioning? Why instead put so much emphasis on not committing shirk, when even if you don't commit shirk you would still be going to hell anyway if you don't have wilayah, while if you have wilayah then apparently shirk isn't that big of a deal anyway (judging by the attitudes of many Shias, even those who don't fell comfortable with a lot of what they see).

The analogy with salah really doesn't work, because if someone went on a desert island for a year with the Qur'an even if he wouldn't be able to figure out how to pray, he would be in no doubt about its importance. This is true of any other essential Islamic belief as well. Can you say this is the case with wilayah? That's not to say it's not important, but more important than everything else put together? No. To believe that makes a mockery of the Qur'an, because most of it then just becomes empty words. And again, historically a certain strand within Shi'ism, generally the one that has tended more towards extremism in their beliefs about the Imams, have had a 'difficult' relationship with the Qur'an. Presumably because the focus of their religion and the focus in the Qur'an just don't seem to match up at all. Even in recent times, scholars such as Sayyid Khamenei or Kamal al-Haydari have said that the Qur'an has been neglected in the hawza. It's not difficult to see why.

If you can give me a good explanation as to why it makes sense for Allah to neglect to emphasise the most important part of His religion in His final message to us, then I'd be happy to go along with it. It's not like I'm treating to be difficult for the sake of it, but I just can't see any good explanation myself.

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41 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

No, I don't think those who rejected Ghadir are ok, because they rejected a direct command of the Prophet (s). Nobody today is in that position though.

I don't believe whether or not someone is going to hell is simply a matter of he proof in front of them, it's about their ability to understand the proof and their intentions. If they recognised this was the truth, but rejected it, then they may go to hell (although I don't discount Allah showing them mercy of the Prophet (s) interceding for them). But there are plenty of reasons why someone might not recognise that it is the truth. If you are brought up as a Sunni, and you are very knowledgeable about your religion, then there are plenty of reasons that could be found to not accept Shi'ism, even if you were able to see some of the flaws in Sunnism.

I think the problem here is there is a danger of losing sight of what the religion is about. It's about worshipping Allah. Now, the best way of worshipping Him is through the teachings of the Prophet (s), and the Imams are the ones who properly preserved those teachings. But ultimately the focus is still on Allah. When instead you put all the focus on believing in the Imams, then they become the focus rather than Allah. This is why the cause of so many of the problems within the Shia world, where the centre of most of the devotion is the Imams.

The concept of wilayah is in the Qur'an, but where does it say that if you don't believe in it you will go to hell? You don't think that is something worth mentioning? Why instead put so much emphasis on not committing shirk, when even if you don't commit shirk you would still be going to hell anyway if you don't have wilayah, while if you have wilayah then apparently shirk isn't that big of a deal anyway (judging by the attitudes of many Shias, even those who don't fell comfortable with a lot of what they see).

The analogy with salah really doesn't work, because if someone went on a desert island for a year with the Qur'an even if he wouldn't be able to figure out how to pray, he would be in no doubt about its importance. This is true of any other essential Islamic belief as well. Can you say this is the case with wilayah? That's not to say it's not important, but more important than everything else put together? No. To believe that makes a mockery of the Qur'an, because most of it then just becomes empty words. And again, historically a certain strand within Shi'ism, generally the one that has tended more towards extremism in their beliefs about the Imams, have had a 'difficult' relationship with the Qur'an. Presumably because the focus of their religion and the focus in the Qur'an just don't seem to match up at all. Even in recent times, scholars such as Sayyid Khamenei or Kamal al-Haydari have said that the Qur'an has been neglected in the hawza. It's not difficult to see why.

If you can give me a good explanation as to why it makes sense for Allah to neglect to emphasise the most important part of His religion in His final message to us, then I'd be happy to go along with it. It's not like I'm treating to be difficult for the sake of it, but I just can't see any good explanation myself.

The problem is you are struggling to condemn anyone to Hell, and it seems you (and I don't want to misquote you) have a difficulty in believing numerous sahih hadiths and the consensus of the sect regarding this issue. 

You said this religion is all about worshipping Allah, and that is true. The essence of Islam is submission to Him and Him alone. But then you somehow connected that to believing in the Imams (AS) and that this has become the main focus. So let me tell you, someone believes in Allah (say an Orthodox Jew) - and he is completely monotheistic in his belief, but he rejects the Prophet. What do you say now? Is believing that the belief in Prophethood as a key to salvation also wrong? Same analogy, different person, and another one of the five "Usool al-Deen".

You just contradicted yourself. You just said that the belief in Wilayah is in the Holy Qur'an, and then you said where does it say that rejecting it takes one to Hell. Do you not realise how contradictory this statement is? Because rejecting even one single Ayah of the Lord is like rejecting the entire Message of the Qur'an. You just rejected a Revelation, that is kufr. And yes shirk is a big deal, because it doesn't just take someone out of Wilaya, it takes someone out of Islam as a whole, and so such a person is going to Hell.

The analogy does work with regards to normal everyday people. It does not work in the specific scenario that you outlined with regards to someone in the desert, but it does work with average everyday Sunnis living in the West. Because the proof is all there, and the condition to searching for the truth are all there. 

I never said Wilayah is more important than anything else, I don't think it is as important as Tawheed for example. Someone who loves the Imams (AS) but is a mushrik, his deeds are in vain, he is cursed, and he will go to Hell forever. So for example, the ghulat. 

Actually the importance of Wilayah has been made clear in the Holy Qur'an, see:

O Messenger, announce that which has been revealed to you from your Lord, and if you do not, then you have not conveyed His message. And Allah will protect you from the people. Indeed, Allah does not guide the disbelieving people.[5:67]

I don't think you are understanding that rejecting one part of the Revelation is like rejecting all of it, especially if it is an essential like Wilayah. Or is Wilayah not essential? Do you believe that religious pluralism with rejects to the other deviant sects of Islam? Do you believe that the deviants are as much saved as the Mu'mins? 

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On 19/12/2016 at 4:30 PM, E.L King said:

The problem is you are struggling to condemn anyone to Hell, and it seems you (and I don't want to misquote you) have a difficulty in believing numerous sahih hadiths and the consensus of the sect regarding this issue. 

No, I think plenty of people are going to hell, because plenty of people will have either rejected the truth when thy recognised it, or will have done other bad things that deserve hell. What I'm careful about doing is condemning specific people to hell, when I don't know their level of knowledge or intentions. I leave that to Allah, and I think it's better to err on the side of caution, rather than pretend I'm comfortably installed in heaven and I can say who is and isn't going to hell. I don't see the benefit of this anyway.

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You said this religion is all about worshipping Allah, and that is true. The essence of Islam is submission to Him and Him alone. But then you somehow connected that to believing in the Imams (AS) and that this has become the main focus. So let me tell you, someone believes in Allah (say an Orthodox Jew) - and he is completely monotheistic in his belief, but he rejects the Prophet. What do you say now? Is believing that the belief in Prophethood as a key to salvation also wrong? Same analogy, different person, and another one of the five "Usool al-Deen".

Are you seriously denying that the Imams have become the main focus in much of mainstream Shi'ism?

As for your analogy, it all depends on what you mean by 'reject'. If some Orthodox Jew doesn't know anything about Islam in any significant sense and is busy worshipping Allah, then I don't see why he would necessarily go to hell. It's all very well to say he should research, but why should he assume that he needs to research in the first place? How many Muslims do any research into their own religion, let alone any of the others?

If, on the other hand, this person recognised that Prophet (s) was who he said he was, but rejected him because he wasn't Jewish (for example), then yeah, he would be deserving of hell. But again, I don't put absolutes on these things, because I don't get to make these decisions. If on judgement day Allah allows into heaven someone you think deserves to go to hell are you going to complain? So we need to be careful about saying people are definitely going to hell unless we have very strong proof.

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You just contradicted yourself. You just said that the belief in Wilayah is in the Holy Qur'an, and then you said where does it say that rejecting it takes one to Hell. Do you not realise how contradictory this statement is? Because rejecting even one single Ayah of the Lord is like rejecting the entire Message of the Qur'an. You just rejected a Revelation, that is kufr. And yes shirk is a big deal, because it doesn't just take someone out of Wilaya, it takes someone out of Islam as a whole, and so such a person is going to Hell.

Yes, if you knowingly reject it. But I don't see where there is any indication that all your deeds are useless unless you believe in it, in the sense that a twelver Shi'i would understand it. Again, my issue here isn't whether we need to believe in it or not. Rather it's the level of importance associated to a very specific understanding of it, and the relative level of evidence for that position.

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The analogy does work with regards to normal everyday people. It does not work in the specific scenario that you outlined with regards to someone in the desert, but it does work with average everyday Sunnis living in the West. Because the proof is all there, and the condition to searching for the truth are all there. 

This is incredibly simplistic. You are acting is if there are absolutely no counter arguments to this proof, and no means of causing doubts. Not to mention the biggest factor, which is the behaviour of Shias themselves. Why would anyone assume that these are the people of the truth? It doesn't seem evident to me, and I'm one of them!

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I never said Wilayah is more important than anything else, I don't think it is as important as Tawheed for example. Someone who loves the Imams (AS) but is a mushrik, his deeds are in vain, he is cursed, and he will go to Hell forever. So for example, the ghulat. 

Actually the importance of Wilayah has been made clear in the Holy Qur'an, see:

O Messenger, announce that which has been revealed to you from your Lord, and if you do not, then you have not conveyed His message. And Allah will protect you from the people. Indeed, Allah does not guide the disbelieving people.[5:67]

It's only made clear if you use external sources to interpret this verse. Can you explain why there is no clear and unambiguous verse in the same way as there is for everything else that is regarded as essential for salvation?

We have plenty of verses in the Qur'an that talk about the things that will land people in hell. For example:

In gardens, they shall ask each other about the guilty: What has brought you into hell? They shall say: We were not of those who prayed; And we used not to feed the poor; And we used to enter into vain discourse with those who entered into vain discourses. And we used to call the day of judgment a lie; Till death overtook us. So the intercession of intercessors shall not avail them.[74:40-48]

Why are these other things mentioned but not wilayah? Again, that's not to say that purposely not believing won't condemn you to hell, but the level of importance that some would like to attach to it doesn't seem to line up with the importance given in the Qur'an. I'd welcome being corrected, but you are going to need to bring some clear unambiguous verses, just like the one I quoted above.

 

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I don't think you are understanding that rejecting one part of the Revelation is like rejecting all of it, especially if it is an essential like Wilayah.

Of course I understand that rejecting one part of the religion is like rejecting all of it. That's not where our difference lies. Our difference is in our understanding of what constitutes 'rejection'. You seem to think that due to the internet pretty much anyone who has access to a computer is either guilty of rejecting the truth or at best not searching for it. I just find this incredibly simplistic, and a little too easy for someone to say when they themselves have been born into the religion.

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Or is Wilayah not essential? Do you believe that religious pluralism with rejects to the other deviant sects of Islam? Do you believe that the deviants are as much saved as the Mu'mins? 

I believe there is only one true religion, which is the one brought by the Prophet (s) and taught by the Imams (a). Therefore by necessity I believe that all other religions, including other Muslims sects, are deviated to some degree or another. I don't put them all in the same boat though. A Sunni is not the same as a follower of the Agha Khan, who has abandoned pretty much all he essentials of the religion. And of course a deviant is not as much saved as a mu'min, but it's not always so clear cut who the mu'min is, and who the deviant is.

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16 hours ago, E.L King said:

Also, another fact: All the Mu'mins will go to Heaven eventually. Every single Mu'min. Mu'min meaning someone who believes in all the essentials of Islam, including Wilayah. And this is the consensus of our sect.

Does that include those who commit shirk?

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6 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Does that include those who commit shirk?

Someone who commits shirk has either apostated from the madhab (those who believe in tafweedh) or from the religion (straight out Ali is an incarnation of Allah), and needs to return to Islam/Iman. Punishment for apostasy is also bound.

And before you say that is going easy on the ghulat who believe in Tafweedh this is simply a Fiqh law with regards to tahara and what not. In the Afterlife they are going to be considered straight out kuffar.

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7 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

No, I think plenty of people are going to hell, because plenty of people will have either rejected the truth when thy recognised it, or will have done other bad things that deserve hell. What I'm careful about doing is condemning specific people to hell, when I don't know their level of knowledge or intentions. I leave that to Allah, and I think it's better to err on the side of caution, rather than pretend I'm comfortably installed in heaven and I can say who is and isn't going to hell. I don't see the benefit of this anyway.

Are you seriously denying that the Imams have become the main focus in much of mainstream Shi'ism?

I never condemned specific people to Hell who I do not know their environments. And I never said I will be comfortably installed in Heaven, clearly if I don't do my obligations I can end up in Hell with the kuffar or if I become a fasiq, may Allah keep me and you safe from that, I can end up in Hell as well. 

This has nothing to do with what mainstream Tashayyu says about the Imams (AS). What I have been posting are the views of the classical scholars, and I will do more of that later too insha Allah, and you will see how they agree with me that the people of innovation who reject the Wilayah are all deserving of Hell.

7 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

As for your analogy, it all depends on what you mean by 'reject'. If some Orthodox Jew doesn't know anything about Islam in any significant sense and is busy worshipping Allah, then I don't see why he would necessarily go to hell. It's all very well to say he should research, but why should he assume that he needs to research in the first place? How many Muslims do any research into their own religion, let alone any of the others?

If, on the other hand, this person recognised that Prophet (s) was who he said he was, but rejected him because he wasn't Jewish (for example), then yeah, he would be deserving of hell. But again, I don't put absolutes on these things, because I don't get to make these decisions. If on judgement day Allah allows into heaven someone you think deserves to go to hell are you going to complain? So we need to be careful about saying people are definitely going to hell unless we have very strong proof.

This is where me and you disagree. Because the people that can be excused are the mustad'afeen. This is clear from the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah. I have not seen an indication that other than the mustad'afeen from the kuffar/mukhalifeen, others can go to Heaven. Yes, I have seen some Ulama say the Jahil Taqsiris can go to Heaven. But in that specific analogy we are talking about a guy who has specifically heard about a religion other than his, or heard about it and rejected it on the spot. And now you tell me why should he research, because there's another religion out there, and by simply ignoring it he isn't using his aql, and that in itself is worthy of Hell, being called to Islam but putting your thumb in your ear (I don't want to listen, I am contempt with what I have). That's madness.

7 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Yes, if you knowingly reject it. But I don't see where there is any indication that all your deeds are useless unless you believe in it, in the sense that a twelver Shi'i would understand it. Again, my issue here isn't whether we need to believe in it or not. Rather it's the level of importance associated to a very specific understanding of it, and the relative level of evidence for that position.

This is incredibly simplistic. You are acting is if there are absolutely no counter arguments to this proof, and no means of causing doubts. Not to mention the biggest factor, which is the behaviour of Shias themselves. Why would anyone assume that these are the people of the truth? It doesn't seem evident to me, and I'm one of them!

If you're asking about proof in the Sunnah, well the proof is mutawatir but it seems you will probably dismiss it.

Tell me, if someone doesn't believe in the Sunnah at all, and simply does what the Holy Qur'an tells him to do (prays but not like how we pray), and goes to Hajj (but not like us, without all the details) - does his deeds count? Is it all about the intention? Because he clearly believes in the concepts of Salat and Hajj, but simply dismisses the Sunnah as the one which explains it.

And the same analogy is there for Wilayah. The Wilayah is memtioned clearly in Ayat Al-Wilayah, that there is a Wilayah to a third person, just as Salat is mentioned in other Verses. Can I simply believe in something without the correct details and not be punished for it? The Wilayah is just another Faridha of Allah, same as Salat and Fasting. Tell me do you believe Wilayah is a Pillar of Islam? Do you believe it is from the Usool Al-Deen?

You are speaking as if Iman itself is not a condition for the correctness of deed of a person. This is all new and no one has said it before.

In fact this same analogy can be used for Tawheed. What if you believe in the Holy Qur'an literally without external sources, and end up believing in Allah with a foot sitting on a throne? Still won't be held accountable?

I already answered that if the only form of Tashayyu and Islam is available is a distorted version, then many people may be excused for not believing in it.

7 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

It's only made clear if you use external sources to interpret this verse. Can you explain why there is no clear and unambiguous verse in the same way as there is for everything else that is regarded as essential for salvation?

We have plenty of verses in the Qur'an that talk about the things that will land people in hell. For example:

In gardens, they shall ask each other about the guilty: What has brought you into hell? They shall say: We were not of those who prayed; And we used not to feed the poor; And we used to enter into vain discourse with those who entered into vain discourses. And we used to call the day of judgment a lie; Till death overtook us. So the intercession of intercessors shall not avail them.[74:40-48]

Why are these other things mentioned but not wilayah? Again, that's not to say that purposely not believing won't condemn you to hell, but the level of importance that some would like to attach to it doesn't seem to line up with the importance given in the Qur'an. I'd welcome being corrected, but you are going to need to bring some clear unambiguous verses, just like the one I quoted above.

I only posted that Verse to show Revelation is incomplete without Wilayah. But if you want a clear Verse of Wilayah, here:

Your ally is none but Allah and [therefore] His Messenger and those who have believed - those who establish prayer and give zakah, and they bow [in worship]. [5:55]

Clearly there is a Wilayah to a third 'thing' (I didn't want to say 'person' because I don't want to call Allah a person). This is clear from the Holy Qur'an, a third Wilayah. If you say the details are not there, I say that's not the defintion of unambigious. There is no Verse in the Holy Qur'an specifying # of rak'aat for prayers. None. This is the same logic used here.

In fact the Imam (AS) replies to this argument the same way I have:

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A man asked Imam Ja`far as-Sadiq [a] about the verse, "Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you" (4:59). The Imam replied, "This was revealed regarding `Ali b. Abi Talib, al-Hasan, and a-Husayn." The man said, "The people say, 'Then why weren't `Ali and his Ahl al-Bayt mentioned by name in the Book of Allah?'" The Imam replied, "Say to them: The command for prayer was revealed to the Messenger of Allah (s), but Allah did not specifically mention [in the Quran] three or four units. It was the Messenger of Allah (s) who detailed that for them. The command to give alms was revealed to him, but He did not mention that it was applied to 1/40 dirhams. It was the Messenger of Allah (s) who detailed for them. The command for Hajj was revealed, but He does not say, 'Circle [the Ka`ba] seven times'. It was the Messenger of Allah (s) detailed that for them. He revealed, 'Obey Allah and obey the Messenger those in authority among you' (4:59), and it was revealed regarding `Ali, al-Hasan, and al-Husayn. The Messenger of Allah (s) said, regarding `Ali, 'Whoever takes me as a Master, then `Ali is his Master.' And he (s) said, 'I leave you with the Book of Allah and my Ahl al-Bayt, so I asked Allah to never separate them from one another until they return to me at the Pond [of Paradise], and He granted my prayer.' And he said, 'Do not lecture them, for they are more knowledgeable than you.' And he said, 'They will not lead you away from the gate of guidance, and they will not make you enter the gate of misguidance.' Had the Messenger of Allah (s) kept quiet, it would not be clear who his Ahl al-Bayt would be, and the dynasties would have claimed it (that title). But Allah revealed it in in a Book, clarifying it to His Prophet (s). 'Surely, Allah wishes to remove uncleanliness from you, Ahl al-Bayt, and purify you with a thorough purification.'

Hadith is sahih, translation by @Qa'im

 

Edited by E.L King
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7 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

I believe there is only one true religion, which is the one brought by the Prophet (s) and taught by the Imams (a). Therefore by necessity I believe that all other religions, including other Muslims sects, are deviated to some degree or another. I don't put them all in the same boat though. A Sunni is not the same as a follower of the Agha Khan, who has abandoned pretty much all he essentials of the religion. And of course a deviant is not as much saved as a mu'min, but it's not always so clear cut who the mu'min is, and who the deviant is.

And this is where me and you disagree. I believe all the people of innovated sects are in the same boat in the Afterlife, the only difference is today's ulama, and not just today's ulama to be fair, tell us that they are atleast Muslims in this life. Or atleast outwardly Muslim. 

Like Al-Khoei said: "Muslims in this life, kafirs in the Afterlife".

Also sorry for cutting the post into two, was a mistake.

Edited by E.L King
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Sorry to interject, but I've heard often that going to hell is an active process, as in the motions are set by ones conscious and deliberate actions. These actions are against proper God consciousness in our inbuilt fitrah. If we believe that ones fitrah is naturally towards seeking the truth (and heaven seeking by default), then one will use their free will and accept the truth if it was properly presented to them (and other Shaytani obstructions were pushed aside). This is a hypothetical scenario, since we don't know what people would really do. 

Fitrah dictates certain anti-human acts (cheating, stealing, lying, murdering) are regressive, accepted by believer or atheist alike. Nobody needs a direct external commandment from a divine source to understand this, so this is where the level playing field lies between those who are aware of divine scripture and those who aren't. I would think on those terms, if one actively pursued such activities, ignorance cannot be claimed. 

The mere claiming of beliefs is not sufficient, so born Muslims have minimal advantages, other than some clearer practices and understandings. In the end, wouldn't you feel born Muslims would be tested by the same things as others, which is the will of ones inclinations, rather than official titles and declarations? Aren't the universal things stated above tripping up more Muslims today than anything else? Yet I feel like we dismiss these so casually, and feel snug and secure in our position, as if being a Shia Muslim already places us on third base right from the start, and all we have is one last glorious sprint "home". All the while we think others are far behind us, because they havent heard our majlis or heard of the hottest topics on SC. 

Edited by magma
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