Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
ahlulkhibra

umar ibn al khattab and aisha

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Lover of Ahlulbait (ams) said:

Brother I would like to see if there are any hadith of our Aimma (ams) forbidding from discussing this sensitive issue. 

An issue where you discuss and begin to call Aisha a Kuffar (a Murtad apostate ) and question why the prophet would remain married to a kaffir is not allowed as per a number of our ulema.       Secondly , our aimmah have asked us to refrain from these sorts of discussions, and slandering in this way. All I have to say is , to those who rebuked me , kindly wait until I get the replies from the offices of the ulema , as well as that of several shooyookh. I don't want people to rebel because they may not like me and I said it , so I will bring the replies and bear witness to Allah that I have done my duty. Whoever will reject , rejects.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, uponthesunnah said:

I got the impression it was more "why did the prophet Marry Aisha if the Quran has condemned her (as you allege) of being a Kuffar (Murtad apostate )? And why did the imam allow his daughter to marry a "kuffar"? 

 

okey so with other words A* and U* werent K*, they were muslims who just happened to go a bit astray? and therefore there was no sin from imam ali's (as) side in giving um kulthum (as) to U*? (even though it was by force).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, uponthesunnah said:

An issue where you discuss and begin to call Aisha a Kuffar (a Murtad apostate ) and question why the prophet would remain married to a kaffir is not allowed as per a number of our ulema.       Secondly , our aimmah have asked us to refrain from these sorts of discussions, and slandering in this way. All I have to say is , to those who rebuked me , kindly wait until I get the replies from the offices of the ulema , as well as that of several shooyookh. I don't want people to rebel because they may not like me and I said it , so I will bring the replies and bear witness to Allah that I have done my duty. Whoever will reject , rejects.

noone dislikes you brother, nor are we zionists who have an agenda towards you. 

Edited by ahlulkhibra

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is a sunni hadith regarding Umm Kulthum's marriage to Umar ibn Khattab:

Ahmad ibn Abdul Jabbar narrates from Yunus ibn Bukair, from Khalid ibn Saleh, from Waqid ibn Abdullah ibn Umar, from some of his relatives that Umar ibn Khattab Umar ibn Khattab asked Ali for the hand of his daughter, Umm Kalthum bint Fatima (daughter of the Holy Prophet (S)) in marriage.

Ali said to him, “She has other guardians also, wait until I get their permission. Then Ali (a.s.) went to Fatima‘s sons and informed them about Umar‘s proposal whereupon they said, “Marry her to him.”

Ali called Umm Kulthum, who was then a young girl then, and said to her, “Go to the Commander of the Faithful, and tell him: My father sends you his regards and says that he has fulfilled your wish.”

Upon reaching Umar‘s house, Umm Kulthum conveyed him her father‘s message whereupon Umar grabbed her and held her to his bosom (!!) and said, “I sought Umm Kulthum‘s hand in marriage and her father married her to me.”

They said to Umar, “What do you mean? She is a little girl?!”

Umar said, "Do not disparage me [for marrying a young girl], for I heard the Prophet say, upon him be blessings and peace:

كل سبب ونسب منقطع يوم القيامة إلا سببي ونسبي

‘Every means will be cut off and every lineage severed on the Day of Judgment except my means and lineage.’

I desired to place myself in the Prophet's lineage through this marriage.”

 

And a shia hadith:

It has been narrated in another narration that Imam Sadiq (a.s.) said:

‘When Umar came to make the marriage proposal, the Commander of the Faithful, Ali (a.s.) told him: She is a young girl.

Thereupon, Umar met Abbas and told him: What is wrong with me? Do I have any defect?‖

Abbas said: Why are you saying that?

Umar said: ―I asked your nephew for his daughter‘s hand in marriage, but he has turned me down. I swear by Allah! I will fill the well of Zamzam with earth, I will destroy every honor that you have, and I will set up two witnesses to testify that he stole, that I may cut off his right hand.‘ Abbas thereupon came to Ali and informed him of what had transpired. He asked Ali to put the matter in his hands, and Ali complied.’

It is quite clear that Imam 'Ali (a.s) at first didn't want to marry his daughter to Umar (according to hadiths it is because he wanted to marry her to his one of his older brother Ja'afar's sons) and he told him she was too young. In the Sunni hadiths I read it doesn't say anything about why Amir ul Mo'mineen changed his mind and accepted Umar's request for his daughters hand but in the Shia hadith I provided it basically says that Umar blackmailed 'Abbas that he would accuse 'Ali (a.s) of stealing so he would get his hand cut off as revenge. 

As for the Quran saying that Umar and Aisha were kuffar, which ayah are you talking about ? I haven't seen or heard anything like that, and also I don't think most scholars consider them kuffar, for example Sayyed Sistani has issued a fatwa against this: https://jafrianews.com/2013/10/14/ayatullah-sistani-issues-fatwa-condemning-abuse-against-sunni-sanctities-in-the-light-of-teaching-of-12-imams/

Edited by Nadia.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, uponthesunnah said:

Secondly , our aimmah have asked us to refrain from these sorts of discussions

Mine was simple question. If you're saying Aimma (ams) has asked us to refrain from this discussion then give hadith else stop inserting Aimma (ams) falsely.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Lover of Ahlulbait (ams) said:

Thank you brother. :)

You too are a very good person.

here sayyed kamal haidari compares the 2 wives of the prophet. 

 and the aya where umar and abu bakr raises their voices over the prophet's, didnt that aya condemn, or am i wrong?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Lover of Ahlulbait (ams) said:

Mine was simple question. If you're saying Aimma (ams) has asked us to refrain from this discussion then give hadith else stop inserting Aimma (ams) falsely.

Our imams have been clear in commanding us not to talk about revered symbols of our brothers in this manner.  Our ulema are also clear on this issue.  What good will delving into if or if not a wife was a "Kuffar " (Murtad apostate )?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, uponthesunnah said:

Our imams have been clear in commanding us not to talk about revered symbols of our brothers in this manner.  Our ulema are also clear on this issue.  What good will delving into if or if not a wife was a "Kuffar " (Murtad apostate )?

because i dont wanna pray and fast with a shaky iman. if someone tells me x and y is kafir, and then another one tells me A and B she married x and y, it raises questions which i need to clarify for myself, otherwise i will think everything is made up and subsequently my aqeeda will have a shaky basis.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, uponthesunnah said:

Our imams have been clear in commanding us not to talk about revered symbols of our brothers in this manner.  Our ulema are also clear on this issue.  What good will delving into if or if not a wife was a "Kuffar " (Murtad apostate )?

You still didn't answered a simple question.

Let me tell you a very basic thing related to aqeedah. It is necessary to know about Allah (swt), His prophet (sawa), Aimma (ams), about their friends and their enemies.  Everyone was not friend. There were people who committed acts of oppression against Ahlulbait (ams). Loving and hating (Tawallah and Tabarrah) are part of furu-e-deen (Wajib).

You are quite knowledgeable you know everything. There are people who come here seeing SC as a source of knowledge, let them know what they want, let them question. There are kids growing up, let them know the correct beliefs. No discussion is sensitive and no one here abuses or sends laanah. We'll call a kafir, a kafir. A murderer, a murderer. Truth will be spoken.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, uponthesunnah said:

This thread however, is asking for a deep theological debate on whether she was a Kaffir apostate, which is an entirely different matter, and we have been warned by our ulema and our aimmah a.s not to delve in these discussions.

Debating on the 'kufr' of a wife of the prophet (s) is forbidden according to a number of our ulema.

 

 

Why do u indulge in such debates when u have no reliable information about the maddhab u follow? The scholars of ur cult are very clear on the status of Aisha (ra).

 

قال محمد باقر المجلسي في كتابه ( بحار الأنوار ) (٢٢ / ٢٣٣ ) قوله تعالى : "ضرب الله مثلا "أقول : لا يخفى على الناقد البصير والفطن الخبير ما في تلك الآيات من التعريض بل التصريح بنفاق عايشة وحفصة وكفرهما


Allamah Baqir Majlisi wrote in Biharul Anwar (Volume 22, Page 233): "Allah (swt) says in Qur'an [Allah has cited for the kuffar the example of the wife of NuH and the wife of LuT.] (66:10), I (i.e. Allamah Baqir Majlisi) say: It is not a secret for the discerning critic (reader/observer) and the one who is clever and knowledgeable that what is mentioned in these verses is an exposure, in fact an explicit declaration of the hypocrisy of Ayesha and Hafsah as well as their kufr (disbelief)." 

 

 

يقول شيخ الطائفة أبو جعفر الطوسي في (كتابه الاقتصاد فيما يتعلق في الاعتقاد ص 36):"عائشة كانت مصرة على حربها لعلي، ولم تتب وهذا يدل على كفرها وبقائها عليه
 
Shaikh al Taifa, Abu Ja'far al Tusi, wrote (in his book "al Iqtisad", page 36):"Ayesha was adamant upon waging war against Ali (as), and she did not repent. This proves her kufr and her remaining on it." 
 
 
 
 
كتاب الأربعين - محمد طاهر القمي الشيرازي
 
Kitab al Arba'een by Shaikh Muhammad Tahir al Qumi al Shirazi*
 
الدليل الأربعون [ما ورد في مثالب أعداء أهل البيت عليهم السلام] مما يدل على امامة أئمتنا الاثني عشر، أن عائشة كافرة مستحقة للنار، وهو مستلزم لحقية مذهبنا وحقية أئمتنا الاثني عشر، لأن كل من قال بخلافة الثلاثة اعتقد ايمانها وتعظيمها وتكريمها، وكل من قال بامامة الاثني عشر قال باستحقاقها اللعن والعذاب، فإذا ثبت كونها كذلك ثبت المدعى، لأنه لا قائل بالفصل.
وأما الدليل على كونها مستحقة للعن والعذاب، فإنها حاربت أمير المؤمنين عليه السلام وقد تواتر عن النبي صلى الله عليه وآله (حربك جربي) ولا ريب في أن حرب النبي صلى الله عليه وآله كفر
الصفحة ٦١٥
 
The fortieth proof (what has been reported on the shortcomings of the enemies of ahlulbayt) that evidences upon the imamah of our twelve Imams (as) is that Ayesha is a kafirah deserving of hellfire. It is a necessity of the reality of our religion and the reality of our twelve Imams (as), because all those who profess by the caliphate of the three believes that she was a believer and honors and respects her, while all those who profess by imamate of the twelve Imams (as) profess by her being deserving of la'nah and Allah (swt)'s punishment. So when her being like that is established, the point is proven, because no one claims a separation (of Ayesha from the issue). 
 
As for the evidence of her being deserving of la'nah and Allah (swt)'s punishment, so indeed she waged war against Ali (as) and there are mutawatir ahadith from the Prophet (pbuh) that "one who wars against you (i.e. Ali) wars against me.", and there is no doubt warring against the Prophet (pbuh) is kufr. (page 615)
 
 
 

And HERE is what ur spiritual leader Ruhullah  Khomaini said about Aisha (ra)

 

Allah swt gave Aisha (ra) & other wives the title "Mother of believers" The title makes sense imo. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Invoker said:

 

Why do u indulge in such debates when u have no reliable information about the maddhab u follow? The scholars of ur cult are very clear on the status of Aisha (ra).

 

قال محمد باقر المجلسي في كتابه ( بحار الأنوار ) (٢٢ / ٢٣٣ ) قوله تعالى : "ضرب الله مثلا "أقول : لا يخفى على الناقد البصير والفطن الخبير ما في تلك الآيات من التعريض بل التصريح بنفاق عايشة وحفصة وكفرهما


Allamah Baqir Majlisi wrote in Biharul Anwar (Volume 22, Page 233): "Allah (swt) says in Qur'an [Allah has cited for the kuffar the example of the wife of NuH and the wife of LuT.] (66:10), I (i.e. Allamah Baqir Majlisi) say: It is not a secret for the discerning critic (reader/observer) and the one who is clever and knowledgeable that what is mentioned in these verses is an exposure, in fact an explicit declaration of the hypocrisy of Ayesha and Hafsah as well as their kufr (disbelief)." 

 

 

يقول شيخ الطائفة أبو جعفر الطوسي في (كتابه الاقتصاد فيما يتعلق في الاعتقاد ص 36):"عائشة كانت مصرة على حربها لعلي، ولم تتب وهذا يدل على كفرها وبقائها عليه
 
Shaikh al Taifa, Abu Ja'far al Tusi, wrote (in his book "al Iqtisad", page 36):"Ayesha was adamant upon waging war against Ali (as), and she did not repent. This proves her kufr and her remaining on it." 
 
 
 
 
كتاب الأربعين - محمد طاهر القمي الشيرازي
 
Kitab al Arba'een by Shaikh Muhammad Tahir al Qumi al Shirazi*
 
الدليل الأربعون [ما ورد في مثالب أعداء أهل البيت عليهم السلام] مما يدل على امامة أئمتنا الاثني عشر، أن عائشة كافرة مستحقة للنار، وهو مستلزم لحقية مذهبنا وحقية أئمتنا الاثني عشر، لأن كل من قال بخلافة الثلاثة اعتقد ايمانها وتعظيمها وتكريمها، وكل من قال بامامة الاثني عشر قال باستحقاقها اللعن والعذاب، فإذا ثبت كونها كذلك ثبت المدعى، لأنه لا قائل بالفصل.
وأما الدليل على كونها مستحقة للعن والعذاب، فإنها حاربت أمير المؤمنين عليه السلام وقد تواتر عن النبي صلى الله عليه وآله (حربك جربي) ولا ريب في أن حرب النبي صلى الله عليه وآله كفر
الصفحة ٦١٥
 
The fortieth proof (what has been reported on the shortcomings of the enemies of ahlulbayt) that evidences upon the imamah of our twelve Imams (as) is that Ayesha is a kafirah deserving of hellfire. It is a necessity of the reality of our religion and the reality of our twelve Imams (as), because all those who profess by the caliphate of the three believes that she was a believer and honors and respects her, while all those who profess by imamate of the twelve Imams (as) profess by her being deserving of la'nah and Allah (swt)'s punishment. So when her being like that is established, the point is proven, because no one claims a separation (of Ayesha from the issue). 
 
As for the evidence of her being deserving of la'nah and Allah (swt)'s punishment, so indeed she waged war against Ali (as) and there are mutawatir ahadith from the Prophet (pbuh) that "one who wars against you (i.e. Ali) wars against me.", and there is no doubt warring against the Prophet (pbuh) is kufr. (page 615)
 
 
 

And HERE is what ur spiritual leader Ruhullah  Khomaini said about Aisha (ra)

 

Allah swt gave Aisha (ra) & other wives the title "Mother of believers" The title makes sense imo. 

 

 

you cant marry the wives of rasulallah, hence the title mother of the believers. it would be highly illogical to think that god praised the wives by saying that, when aisha fought against imam ali (as) at battle of jamal resulting in mass destruction of muslims. 

Edited by ahlulkhibra

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...