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amberzahra

Why do shia hit themselves with chain

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Without doubt, weeping over the Imam Husain (a.s.) the Chief of Martyrs (a.s.) has exemplary effects and blessings.  But Blood matam in its present form does not have a rational or religious basis. It is a clear instance of deviation. At least, in the present day it causes Shi’ism to be questioned. Activities that do not have any relation to the goals of Imam Husayn (as) are razors, blades and locks. Striking the head with a blade is the same. This is a mistake. Some people take blades and strike their heads and back making blood flow  for what? This action is not mourning.

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Well, sister... some people love to harm themselves. It's a fetish. Some do ma'tam humanly, having limitations, albeit some love to do it differently, by shedding their own blood. Furthermore, these people don't have pain receptors. If they thought that they'd pain receptors, then they'd not do it to their own innocent children. 

3296044269_160c1e4ef5_b.jpg

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20 minutes ago, IjazLinorAhmad said:

Well, sister... some people love to harm themselves. It's a fetish. Some do ma'tam humanly, having limitations, albeit some love to do it differently, by shedding their own blood. Furthermore, these people don't have pain receptors. If they thought that they'd pain receptors, then they'd not do it to their own innocent children. 

3296044269_160c1e4ef5_b.jpg

Omg.

I dislike it. I think it's a display of needless self violence that has little genuine emotion or purpose to it. When did the prophet or any of the Imams perform such barbaric acts for no reason other that to what? Show they are tougher/more dedicated than others? I feel it goes against what Islam and their message stands for.

Feeling sadness over Karbala, even shedding tears of genuine emotion, contemplating the events, their repercussions, gaining understanding over the real life lessons learned... those are all things we should aim for and bring good to our character.

Beating oneself bloody with a chain/sword/whatever brings nothing good.

 

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13 minutes ago, amberzahra said:

You can simply ignore . duh!!

I wish it was that simple. There are numerous posts on shiachat regarding bloodletting, tatbeer and etc, so you better check those posts to find your andwer instead of starting a new debate which will lead to no where. My intention was not to offend you.

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@zeesh_ali110 This is what i like to mention. Once kids will get into youth age they will ask , and that is why Ayatollah Khamenei said " youth are ready to accept religion which shows them logic , and its duty of scholars to express things properly " these are not exact words what he said but the impression is towards it. Letter to youth of west have many more content realted to these issues.

And that is why it is required for Middle Generation to make link proper so that they can connect properly to Islam and not get deviated. And for sure Taghoot will work to deviate them from right track.

I hope you understand now , why i am in favour of these discussion. But some people love to abuse and that makes these discussions bad. Otherwise these are healthy debates unless someone not start forcing there intention on other's intention.

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17 minutes ago, Engineer73 said:

Why there is a need to ask same question again and again for which we have almost 7-8 locked threads present here?

You should have scoll down a bit and should have choosed the answer satisfying your intellect.

Cracked Pipe :)

 

Ty for telling. I didn't know . :/

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Salam. You seem confused so I'll explain them to you simply one by one and the reasons behind them. So, lets start with chest beating. Dr Sayed Ammar Nakshawani thoroughly explains that chest beating is a part of our religion. It is in our books of Ahlul Sunnah, that the method of grief used by the family of Rasul Allah and the wives of Rasul Allah was to beat themselves on their chest and to slap their cheeks. Aisha narrated that she and the women in her home started to beat their chests and slap their cheeks when they heard Rasul Allah died. It was a natural expression of grief. Also, Bebe Zainab on the night of the tenth of Muharram, started beating her chest and slapping her cheek when she found Imam Hussains (A.S) body on the ground in the battle of Karbala due to his chest being trampled by the enemies horses. So when we beat our chests we are remembering Imam Hussain (A.S). Now, slapping ourselves with a chain, what does this remind us of and why do we do it? This reminds us of the granddaughters of Rasul Allah and how they were whipped with sharp chains after Karbala, so much that when they were buried they had blue marks on their face and under their eyes and became ill due to the hard lashes on their backs. So when we hit our backs with chains we are remembering the chains on the backs of Rasul Allah's granddaughters. So it is a cultural expression of remembrance of Karbala. Now, what about slashing our heads with the swords. That is to remember how Imam Ali Ibn Abi Talib (A.S) was killed in the Mosque of Kufa in Iraq with a sword that struck his head, so some people decide to strike their head with a sword. However, getting the children involved against their will is disgusting and not a part of the Shia Islam Doctrine or the Islamic religion as a whole. So most of us Shia, do not participate in that and try to refrain from it as much as we can. 

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14 minutes ago, Jafar Almaali said:

Salam. You seem confused so I'll explain them to you simply one by one and the reasons behind them. So, lets start with chest beating. Dr Sayed Ammar Nakshawani thoroughly explains that chest beating is a part of our religion.

 

Sayed Ammar has said that chest beating is cultural , but it does not go against the religion.

Ofcourse, i am not talking about the indo-pak topless heavy bruising two-handed and extreme chest beating [that i have grown up with]

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16 minutes ago, Jafar Almaali said:

chest beating is a part of our religion.

Is it reaĺly? Where is its command in Quran?

18 minutes ago, Jafar Almaali said:

It was a natural expression of grief.

Yes , means this is one of thw way of expressing emotions related with grief. 

So this is not part of religion in anyway.

 

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Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 286:

لَا يُكَلِّفُ اللَّهُ نَفْسًا إِلَّا وُسْعَهَا لَهَا مَا كَسَبَتْ وَعَلَيْهَا مَا اكْتَسَبَتْ رَبَّنَا لَا تُؤَاخِذْنَا إِن نَّسِينَا أَوْ أَخْطَأْنَا رَبَّنَا وَلَا تَحْمِلْ عَلَيْنَا إِصْرًا كَمَا حَمَلْتَهُ عَلَى الَّذِينَ مِن قَبْلِنَا رَبَّنَا وَلَا تُحَمِّلْنَا مَا لَا طَاقَةَ لَنَا بِهِ وَاعْفُ عَنَّا وَاغْفِرْ لَنَا وَارْحَمْنَا أَنتَ مَوْلَانَا فَانصُرْنَا عَلَى الْقَوْمِ الْكَافِرِينَ

Allah does not impose upon any soul a duty but to the extent of its ability; for it is (the benefit of) what it has earned and upon it (the evil of) what it has wrought: Our Lord! do not punish us if we forget or make a mistake; Our Lord! do not lay on us a burden as Thou didst lay on those before us, Our Lord do not impose upon us that which we have not the strength to bear; and pardon us and grant us protection and have mercy on us, Thou art our Patron, so help us against the unbelieving people.

(English - Shakir)

Question is that, can we give our self enough pain which is within the capacity to bear? Are we the "malik" of our bodies to some extant? Do we keep the "rights to use" our body as we wish?

Find out the answers of these questions and you will get the answer of your question In Sha Allah.

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Blood transfusion sounds much more logical and relevant today than do harm to ourselves. It will helps many people tho. I know (n I ve seen with my own eyes) many of em do such this charity. 

Hope sunni - shia (susi) hold hands together in commemorating Asyura, since Hussein is a grandson of Muhammad (pbuh) and a symbol of justice. 

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52 minutes ago, Engineer73 said:

Is it reaĺly? Where is its command in Quran?

Yes , means this is one of thw way of expressing emotions related with grief. 

So this is not part of religion in anyway.

 

Depends what you mean by part of religion? We have examples of grief and mourning in the Quran. Don't forget Jacob grief over the loss of his son Joseph. 

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Just now, repenter said:

Depends what you mean by part of religion? We have examples of grief and mourning in the Quran. Don't forget Jacob grief over the loss of his son Joseph. 

Yes there is mentioned in chapter 53 that "He it is Who makes laugh & makes weep". This is the zikr of creation of emotions. Similarly grief of Jacob is mentioned as emotion, he was not commanded to cry or weep. So how can you say it is a part of religion?

Surah An-Najm, Verse 43:

وَأَنَّهُ هُوَ أَضْحَكَ وَأَبْكَىٰ

And that He it is Who makes (men) laugh and makes (them) weep;

(English - Shakir)

Surah Ar-Room, Verse 21:

وَمِنْ آيَاتِهِ أَنْ خَلَقَ لَكُم مِّنْ أَنفُسِكُمْ أَزْوَاجًا لِّتَسْكُنُوا إِلَيْهَا وَجَعَلَ بَيْنَكُم مَّوَدَّةً وَرَحْمَةً إِنَّ فِي ذَٰلِكَ لَآيَاتٍ لِّقَوْمٍ يَتَفَكَّرُونَ

And one of His signs is that He created mates for you from yourselves that you may find rest in them, and He put between you love and compassion; most surely there are signs in this for a people who reflect.

(English - Shakir)

Love is another emotion & is mentioned in 30:21, it is in our nature. We love & we hate, we laugh & we cry. 

 

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If anyone want to make Islamic understanding of blood matam, he should look this matter in the light of following questions:

1. Are we the Malik of our bodies? To some extent

2. Do we keeps the "right to use" our body as we wish?

3. Can we give our bodies enough pain which is within the capacity or which we can bear?

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When i was a kid people taught me at school that they are hitting themselves because they abandoned the grandson of prophet Mohamed. Then the story was told about how the followers of Hussein abandoned him on the battlefield after promising him to show up at the appointment.

Then i came here and got insight into people claiming that hitting yourself is a way of expressing love. The first thought that came to my head was that if hitting myself is an expression of love, then i would chop my own head off. 

Anyway, this peculiar practice is a mystery to me, and lately i have been inclined to think that what i was taught earlier might be true: maybe the rojua (return) of shias via reincarnation and descendants makes them innately feel guilty for what they or their ancestors have done, so they flog themselves or do even worse.

Kind of reminds me of Lord of the Rings, where you have a dead army of cursed souls who are waiting to do what is right for the sake of the "king". And till then they are scolding themselves and living in misery. Allah knows best.

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1 hour ago, saas said:

What concerns me more is the involuntary relationship formed between Islam (Shiasm) and blood spurred self-flagellation. Those who claim it's a personal mourning ritual and understand it has nothing to do with our Aqeedah then fall short in personalising the Act behind close doors. In a time where everything is recorded and placed on the internet for the world to see, it demands greater caution to better manifest the determination of the commemorated. Unfortunately there are some who hijack these crucial times to serve themselves alone and fail to lend hand to those who equally deserve the message in the best and most dignified approach.

I too have taken chained knives bolted on a wooden handle and struck my back. That was a very long time ago. Unfortunately, I did this following a handful and not the majority at a time when I knew very little of our beloved Imam. The more I learned of Hussain (as) the less inclined i was to such rituals and eventually made a conscious choice to put an end to it. If blood letting is not religion, has no real benefit to the purpose of Muharram, does not help to propagate truth or inject positives for revivalism - then it's very safe for one to choose to disagree without instigating trouble. Unfortunately, for those who may agree with the practices, from my experience, fight their corner as if their life depends on it without offering anything concrete for the admission.

For those who are offended with the above - my purpose is simple, these articles/posts are accessible by anyone and everyone whether its on SC or on universal search engines like google, bing, etc. It is important for non-shias or non-muslims, as well as our young Shia brothers and sisters to differentiate between Shia practices and the minority blood keen mourning rituals.

subhanAllah, may Allah greatly reward you 

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3 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

When i was a kid people taught me at school that they are hitting themselves because they abandoned the grandson of prophet Mohamed. Then the story was told about how the followers of Hussein abandoned him on the battlefield after promising him to show up at the appointment.

Then i came here and got insight into people claiming that hitting yourself is a way of expressing love. The first thought that came to my head was that if hitting myself is an expression of love, then i would chop my own head off. 

Anyway, this peculiar practice is a mystery to me, and lately i have been inclined to think that what i was taught earlier might be true: maybe the rojua (return) of shias via reincarnation and descendants makes them innately feel guilty for what they or their ancestors have done, so they flog themselves or do even worse.

Kind of reminds me of Lord of the Rings, where you have a dead army of cursed souls who are waiting to do what is right for the sake of the "king". And till then they are scolding themselves and living in misery. Allah knows best.

One shouldn't dramatize a story of what they have heard without reliable sources. one shouldn't undervalue and overgeneralize all shiite do harm to theirselves on rituals etc etc. we do respect the rights of expression and freedom of religion alas it doesn't hurt anyone else.

Edited by JasmineAila

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9 minutes ago, JasmineAila said:

Ones shouldn't dramatize a story of what they have heard without reliable sources. and ones shouldn't undervalue and overgeneralize all shiite do harm to theirselves on rituals etc etc. we do respect the rights of expression and freedom of religion alas it doesn't hurt anyone else.

 

Not sure i understand what you mean, except the last part about not hurting anyone else. Bad image and innovations do hurt other shias by having others look at them as retarded, and it also hurts others by stopping non shias from entering into the fold of ahlulbayt.

To non shias this looks very unattractive, and Islam is supposed to be beautiful and inviting.

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7 hours ago, IjazLinorAhmad said:

Well, sister... some people love to harm themselves. It's a fetish. Some do ma'tam humanly, having limitations, albeit some love to do it differently, by shedding their own blood. Furthermore, these people don't have pain receptors. If they thought that they'd pain receptors, then they'd not do it to their own innocent children. 

3296044269_160c1e4ef5_b.jpg

Welcome to what has become the image of the madhab of Jaffer as Sadiq a.s. Congratulations on the silent majority of 'good' people who did little to speak out [from the 1800's onwards]. I know many of our scholars were frightened of speaking out because the layman and ignorants would have cursed and abused them and accused them of 'hating azadari'. All i know is, we will all answer in our graves as to what we did with the book of Allah, and his Ahlulbayt asws.

 

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5 minutes ago, uponthesunnah said:

I know many of our scholars were frightened of speaking out because the layman and ignorants would have cursed and abused them and accused them of 'hating azadari'.

right. maraji are terrified of laymen so either make the haram into halal, or refuse to do naiy hanil munkar instead of revealing the truth. sounds legit. 

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21 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

 

Not sure i understand what you mean, except the last part about not hurting anyone else. Bad image and innovations do hurt other shias by having others look at them as retarded, and it also hurts others by stopping non shias from entering into the fold of ahlulbayt.

To non shias this looks very unattractive, and Islam is supposed to be beautiful and inviting.

*one , I mean someone here. referring to you. sorry..

Btw when we talk about sunni shia, it just reminds me of catholic and advent. It's hard for catholic to accept advent as Christian n vice versa. 

Edited by JasmineAila

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2 minutes ago, JasmineAila said:

*one , I mean someone here. referring to you. sorry..

Btw when we talk about sunni shia, it just reminds me of catholic and advent. It's hard for catholic to accept advent as Christian n vise versa. 

yes it is very similar and they had many nasty wars, including the 30 year war that my ancestors were fighting in hundreds of years ago. Today we have a sect called the Opus Dei who also self flagellate and whip themselves, and most people make fun of them. But they do it in private behind closed doors in order to get rid of their sins supposedly. 

Just like in the various Suni and Shia sects, each one has its strengths and weaknesses. I am actually good friends with Opus Dei leaders, but I'm not sure if my priest buddy flagellates himself tbh

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On 04/12/2016 at 9:55 PM, DigitalUmmah said:

right. maraji are terrified of laymen so either make the haram into halal, or refuse to do naiy hanil munkar instead of revealing the truth. sounds legit. 

my bro not terrified but aware of the resultants with regards to the situation and circumstances. 

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1 hour ago, haideriam said:

my bro not terrified but aware of the resultants with regards to the situation and circumstances. 

You dont know what you are talking about.

It is *haram* for a scholar to not do amr bil maroof and naiy hanil munkar. it is absolutely unthinkable that they would remain silent and allow sin to spread.

Just admit that some scholars are ok with it, and some are not. it wont kill you. 

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