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DigitalUmmah

Wikileaks reveals US/Sayed khomeini links

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21 minutes ago, iraqi_shia said:

I think you said enough here, if you had any decency as a human being you would apologise and leave before you shame your self further.

Am i criticising a ma'sum, that me sharing something which is now global knowledge from a fairly reputable source (especially when it came to exposing saudi arabia) such a sin that I need to apologise?

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1 hour ago, mesbah said:

I have read it several times, and I think you are misreporting it. Where does he talk about American "interests"?

The message completely fits in the context: Americans being stressed out about American lives in Iran, Imam telling them back off to remain safe. It even has a threatening tone. (However, in the long run, they didn't back off, thus endangered American lives in Iran, the hostage situation)

 

Now, upon the hoax created over this news, Ibrahim Yazdi, the one who passed the message to Zimmerman, made some comments in an interview:

https://www.tasnimnews.com/fa/news/1394/08/17/910186/ابراهیم-یزدی-خبر-بی-بی-سی-را-تکذیب-کرد

Main points he made:

1- Aqa (He doesn't refer to him as Imam, he made a split with revolution later) Khomeini never sent a message to Carter first, this message was a response to Carter's earlier message.

2- This is not the first time this message is released, It was first published by Garry Sik in his book Sick, Gary ; All Fall Down. American’s Tragic Encounter With Iran. New York; Random House,1985 , since his version was biased and fragmentary, I (Yazdi) gave my own notes (that I had taken during those days in Paris) to a friend who published the full version in Farsi.

3-This report quotes from Aqa Khomeini "we have no particular animosity with Americans" which in fact and originally was " we have no .... with American people."

And other points.

Edited 1 hour ago by

 

 now that bro is homework which the biased opinion will never find.

Wallahi it is all about that one fatwa and an elitist agenda, which bro spiritual expressed as maybe they love Imam(as) more than me or maybe their acceptance in front of Imam(as) is more,  with regards to himself a wannabe bladed zanjir zan and an actual bladed zanjir zan. 

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Repeating and in addition to what some of our brothers have stated so far:

1. These stories are not new. So using words such as 'leaking' and 'revealing' doesn't make sense here.

2. The exchange of messages between Imam Khomeini and Carter is not a secret thing on behalf of Imam Khomeini. The following is an example of the real and not fabricated messages exchanged between them in which, unlike what some claim, Imam Khomeini warns Carter:

Quote

Statements Date: January 8, 1979  [Dey 18, 1357AHS / Safar 9, 1399 AH]

Place: Neauphle-le-Château, Paris, France

Subject: Opposing the Bakhtiyar government and the consequences of a military coup

Addressees: Two envoys of the French President

[Giscard d'Estaing‟s Envoy: The reason for our meeting is to convey a message we have for the Ayatullah. This message is from President Carter for the Imam. In a telephone conversation with President Giscard d'Estaing, he requested that the message be conveyed to you. In his message, President Carter has demanded that the Ayatullah use all his forces to prevent opposition to Bakhtiyar. Attacking Bakhtiyar will have many dangers and is a gamble, which will lead to great casualties. In President Carter‘s viewpoint, avoidance of any explosion in Iran will be in the interest of all. The exit of the Shah is definite and will take place in the near future. In Carter‘s view it will be appropriate to bring the entire situation under your control to bring about peace. What is necessary to say is that the danger of the army‘s intervention is there and the materialization of this threat will exacerbate the situation. Won‘t it be better to create a period of silence and tranquility? President Carter hopes that this message remains absolutely secret and confidential. A means of direct contact with the Ayatullah should be arranged in order to be regularly informed about the developments; and this will be in the interest of your country, particularly the Ayatullah. The (French) Foreign Minister conveyed that keeping Carter‘s message unveiled will be in the interest of the Imam, for it will make the continuation of this relation possible. I have been asked to say that the message and its content are very logical, and the transfer of power in Iran must be controlled and accompanied with feeling of serious political responsibilities.]

Imam: The message of Mr. Carter had two points: One, agreeing with the current government, that is, the Bakhtiyar government, or at least keeping silent under the present circumstances and maintaining tranquility in this recession; and the second point was about the probability of a military coup or the prediction of a military coup, and the extensive massacre of the people that you are frightening us of happening. With regard to the Bakhtiyar government, you are recommending us to act against our law. Suppose I commit such a mistake, the nation will not be ready to do so. Our nation has endured such great difficulties and made such great sacrifices in order to emancipate itself from the burden of the monarchial regime and the Pahlavi dynasty. Our nation is not ready to waste all those sacrifices and allow the Shah to remain in power, or leave and once again come back worse than before; it is not ready to accept the Royal Council either, for that too is against the constitution that I have frequently explained. With regard to maintaining the tranquility, we have always wanted the country to be tranquil and the people live in peace; but it is not possible to maintain peace with the existence of the Shah; and we cannot restore peace with the existence of the Shah. If Mr. Carter has got goodwill and wants peace and wants to prevent the bloodshed, it will be appropriate to remove the Shah, not support the government [of Bakhtiyar], and not block the materialization of the people‘s will, which is a legitimate will and demand. And about the coup, just now I was informed that a military coup is underway and they intend to commit massive massacres; and they have asked me to boycott the American goods and warn the US that if such a coup happens they will hold you responsible; and if you have goodwill, you must stop it. They have told me and sent messages to me that if the coup takes place; the decree for holy war should be issued. I do not consider the coup in the interest of the nation nor in that of the US; if it (the coup) happens, will we hold you responsible. I don‘t know what the American nation will do in the future? Given that I am a cleric and always take the exigency of mankind and that of my nation into consideration, I advise you to prevent the bloodshed and not allow the bloodshed go on; leave Iran to itself, and if you do so, it will neither have a communist inclination nor will it lean toward other diversionary schools of thought; it will neither surrender to the East nor to the West.

 I emphasize that if you want to maintain peace in Iran, there is no other way than removing the monarchical system, which is illegal and leave the nation to themselves so that I set up a revolutionary council, consisting of pious persons, for the transfer of power to prepare the necessary grounds for the establishment of the government that is to be elected by the people. Otherwise, there will be no hope for peace; and I fear that if a military coup is engineered in Iran; such an explosion will break out that no one will be able to control. The Iranian nation is not afraid of a military coup, for it has already been several months that the military power has been vigorously dealing with the people, but they have not been able to maintain peace. Today, the system and the army have become weaker and shakier, for differences have surfaced within the army and many of them are joining us and will muffle the coup, but with a massacre that I do not like to happen. I recommend you to prevent a coup, for if it happens, the people will hold you responsible for it, and it will be detrimental to you. This is my entire message to Carter. But with regard to the French government, I thank the president who has questioned Carter‘s support for the Shah in this conference and I would like him to advise Carter to stop his support for the Shah and the current regime and government—that are all illegal—and to prevent the military coup so that tranquility is returned to Iran and the economic wheels start moving. Then it will be possible to export oil to the West and anywhere else that there is a customer.

SAHIFEH-YE IMAM (Volume 5), pages 366 to 368

http://en.imam-khomeini.ir/en/c5_3233/Book/English/SAHIFEH-YE_IMAM_Volume_5_

3. Another way for disproving these never proved claims would be using counter-argument. One of these counter-arguments is memories of General Robert E. Huyser. As he has stated in his book "Mission to Tehran", he was sent to Iran to prevent Revolution from happening. Ayatullah Khamenei in one of his speeches mentions this mission Huyser talks about in his book:

Quote

Another assassination like the one on the 17th of Shahrivar took place in Enqelab Square. This event is usually ignored. During this event, the taghuti agents attacked the people. An American general [Robert Huyser] - who on the last days of the former regime had come to Iran to save it from the Revolution - is quoted as saying, "I gathered the Shah's generals and asked them to lower their gun barrels." On many occasions, the Shah's soldiers used to fire into the air in order to scare the people, but this person asked the Shah's generals to lower their gun barrels and to aim at the people. As a result, the soldiers executed the order in Enqelab Square by lowering their gun barrels and aiming at the people. They martyred a large number of the people, but it was not effective because the people did not retreat. They continued their movement.

After that, one of the commanders of the Shah's army - Gharabaghi who was the commander-in-chief of the army at that time - went to Huyser and said to him, "Your order was not effective because it could not make the people move back." In his memoirs, Huyser writes, "What childish analyses they have. What do they mean?" He goes on to say, "Gharabaghi expected the issue to be over with one attempt, but this should continue. They should massacre the people wherever they see them."

This is America.

http://english.khamenei.ir/news/2136/Strong-economy-developing-science-and-revolutionary-spirit

I didn't find an online copy of the book. But here is another relevant part:

Quote

Traditional consensus has it that Carter's purpose in sending Huyser was to sack the Shah. In this volume, the General debunks this idea, asserting that his mission was first to attempt to save the Shah, and only secondarily to arrange for a strong military successor. https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-reviews/robert-e-huyser/mission-to-tehran/

 

4. Another point is that those fabricated messages and letters were denied by many involved individuals. One of these individuals whose name is mentioned in these texts is Ibrahim Yazdi. Everyone who knows him knows that he is not a pro-Islamic Revoultion and has had issues with Islamic Revolution.

5. Many other things can be said in this regard, but all things aside, as it was mentioned; البینه علی المدعی: The proof is up to the claimer, while these people have presented no fact to back their claim up and obviously they don't have any to present.

Also, in the OP, the issue of Iran Contra is used as an evidence for the Op's claim. It's enough to see OP doesn't know what he is talking about.

Edited by kamyar

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3 minutes ago, DigitalUmmah said:

it definitely seems to me that wikileaks has slanted the leaks to make sayed khomeini look in as bad a light as possible, and altered the texts. from the other sources I don't think its as sinister as its initially made out

See that's why dear bro, Surah Hujrat, Ayat 6. always verify before spreading a news when it comes from Fasiqeen. Lest you regret ^^ as Allah swt says it.

You just proved that Surah Hujrat Ayah 6 fits you in this post :).

But as a solace, please do read till at least Surah Hujrat - Ayat 13, all of it sounds so much like all of us. Afte rall its addressing to Shia only.  

Edited by Irfani313

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On ‎12‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 7:23 AM, iraqi_shia said:

You and spiritual are concerned about whether Aytollah Khomenei is working within an Islamic framework?

Perhaps you should get your own houses in order before you start looking at people who have really put their talk into action and put their lives on the line for the love of Ahl Bayt AS.

I think you said enough here, if you had any decency as a human being you would apologise and leave before you shame your self further.

Beautifully said brother, Thank you. Some people are just shameless.

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- وأخبرنا علي بن أحمد البندنيجي، عن عبيد الله بن موسى العلوي، عن علي بن إبراهيم بن هاشم، عن أبيه، عن عبد الله بن المغيرة، عن عبد الله بن مسكان، عن مالك بن أعين الجهني قال: سمعت أبا جعفر الباقر يقول:

كل راية ترفع - أو قال: تخرج - قبل قيام القائم صاحبها طاغوت.

Ali bin Ahmad al-Bandaneeji narrated from Obaydillah bin Musa al-Alawi from Ali bin Ibraheem bin Hisham from his father from Abdullah bin al-Mugheera from Abdullah bin Miskan that Malik bin A’yun al-Juhani had said: “I heard Abu Ja'far al-Baqir (as) saying:

Every banner that is raised-or comes out-before the appearance of al-Qa’im (as) will be of an oppressive arrogant.”

 

وأخبرنا علي بن أحمد، عن عبيد الله بن موسى، عن أحمد بن محمد بن خالد، عن علي بن الحكم، عن أبان بن عثمان، عن الفضيل بن يسار قال: سمعت أبا عبد الله جعفر بن محمد يقول:

مَن خرج يدعو الناس وفيهم مَن هو أفضل منه فهو ضالٌّ مبتدعٌ. ومَن ادّعى الإمامة من الله وليس بإمامٍ فهو كافر.

Ali bin Ahmad narrated from Obaydillah bin Musa from Ahmad bin Muhammad bin Khalid from Ali bin al-Hakam from Abban bin Uthman from al-Fudhayl bin Yasar that Abu Abdullah Ja'far bin Muhammad as-Sadiq (as) had said:

“Whoever invites people to follow him and there is someone better than him among people, is a deviate and heretic and whoever pretends that he is an imam inspired by Allah, is an unbeliever.”

 

حدثنا محمد بن همام قال: حدثنا جعفر بن محمد بن مالك قال: حدثني أحمد بن علي الجعفي، عن محمد بن المثني الحضرمي، عن أبيه، عن عثمان بن زيد عن جابر، عن أبي جعفر محمد بن علي الباقر قال:

مثلُ خروج القائم منّا أهل البيت كخروج رسول الله ، ومثل مَن خرج منا أهل البيت قبل قيام القائم مثل فرخ طار فوقع مِن وكره فتلاعَبت به الصبيان.

Muhammad bin Hammam narrated from Ja'far bin Muhammad bin Malik from Ahmad bin Ali al-Ju’fi from Muhammad bin al-Muthanna al-Hadhrami from his father from Uthman bin Zayd from Jabir that Abu Ja'far al-Baqir (as) had said:

“The advent of al-Qa'im (as) is like the advent of the messenger of Allah (as). If any of us, Ahlul Bayt, rises before the advent of al-Qa'im (as), he will be like a young bird that flies and falls down and then children play with it.”

 

Let me see.

Attempted to ignite Shia masses and engage them in wars worldwide despite hadiths suggests otherwise? Checked. (Khomeini)

Invited people to themselves despite there were/are many scholars who are more qualified than them? Checked. (Khamanei / Khomeini)

Raised flags before the al-Qaim a.s.? Checked.

As a british zionist agent shia who is on a MI6 payroll, I'd like to remind the words of Ahlulbayt a.s. to those who has eyes to see, who has heart to feel, who has mind to understand. Wassalam.

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54 minutes ago, celestial said:

Let me see.

Attempted to ignite Shia masses and engage them in wars worldwide despite hadiths suggests otherwise? Checked. (Khomeini)

Invited people to themselves despite there were/are many scholars who are more qualified than them? Checked. (Khamanei / Khomeini)

Raised flags before the al-Qaim a.s.? Checked.

As a british zionist agent shia who is on a MI6 payroll, I'd like to remind the words of Ahlulbayt a.s. to those who has eyes to see, who has heart to feel, who has mind to understand. Wassalam.

Those hadithes need to be checked by scholars.

I just know if it was not because of revolution of Khomeini and support of this revolution for the oppressed people, nowadays ISIS would have eaten all the Shias in the middle east. 

All the powers are taghuts except those who are trying to pave the way for reappearance of Mahdi and empowering Shia.

No hadith can contradict the verses of Quran whatever it is and from whomever it is:

"""

And prepare against them what force you can and horses tied at the frontier, to frighten thereby the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them, whom you do not know (but) Allah knows them; and whatever thing you will spend in Allah's way, it will be paid back to you fully and you shall not be dealt with unjustly

(Quran 8:60)

"""

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44 minutes ago, maes said:

I just know if it was not because of revolution of Khomeini and support of this revolution for the oppressed people, nowadays ISIS would have eaten all the Shias in the middle east.

LOL. All those umayyad, abbasid, ottoman tyrannies couldn't eat Shias for all the history but some 50.000 cannibals would have eaten the approx. 300.000.000 Shia world?

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9 minutes ago, celestial said:

LOL. All those umayyad, abbasid, ottoman tyrannies couldn't eat Shias for all the history but some 50.000 cannibals would have eaten the approx. 300.000.000 Shia world?

If we were to follow your logic and do nothing, then yes.... they would. According to your logic we should not follow anyone into war. So when Isis attacks the Lebanese or Iraqi borders and sayyed Hassan Nassrallah orders men to defend we shouldn't. What should we do @celestial? Btw I am interested in where your beliefs stem from? Can you share please whose ideals and scholars you follow? 

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4 hours ago, kirtc said:

If we were to follow your logic and do nothing, then yes.... they would. According to your logic we should not follow anyone into war. So when Isis attacks the Lebanese or Iraqi borders and sayyed Hassan Nassrallah orders men to defend we shouldn't. What should we do @celestial? Btw I am interested in where your beliefs stem from? Can you share please whose ideals and scholars you follow? 

Isn't it obvious?

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4 hours ago, celestial said:

x

It's important for everyone to recognise who they are dealing with here brother. Do you still affirm that the Quran has Tahreef and [or] distortions in it, or have you taken back this view?

 

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6 hours ago, celestial said:

As a british zionist agent shia who is on a MI6 payroll, I'd like to remind the words of Ahlulbayt a.s. to those who has eyes to see, who has heart to feel, who has mind to understand. Wassalam.

May Allah raise you among the enemies of Imam Sayyid al-Khomeini (ra) on the day of judgment.

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3 hours ago, mesbah said:

May Allah raise you among the enemies of Imam Sayyid al-Khomeini (ra) on the day of judgment.

As long as Allah raises me as an ally to His Prophets a.s. and Imams a.s., I wouldn't mind.

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On 2016-12-03 at 10:46 AM, celestial said:

As a british zionist agent shia who is on a MI6 payroll, I'd like to remind the words of Ahlulbayt a.s. to those who has eyes to see, who has heart to feel, who has mind to understand.

I know you dislike Iran and Iranians even without the Ayatollahs involved because you think they all dislike Turks, but to make such an accusation, it is not a smal thing to claim.

Be careful of such accusations because they might come back to haunt you in a day of great need.

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On 12/3/2016 at 3:19 PM, kirtc said:

If we were to follow your logic and do nothing, then yes.... they would. According to your logic we should not follow anyone into war. So when Isis attacks the Lebanese or Iraqi borders and sayyed Hassan Nassrallah orders men to defend we shouldn't. What should we do @celestial? Btw I am interested in where your beliefs stem from? Can you share please whose ideals and scholars you follow? 

Your questions and many other questions like them in response to this logic have no answer, since people like you are talking about basic, clear and undeniable rational and Islamic principles. The person who posted those Ahadith was using Islamic contexts to oppose fighting against corrupt regimes like Shah’s and creating a government based on Islamic rules, which are Islamic principles.

"Using Islamic contexts to oppose Islamic principles" is among the weakest and worst things in the world ever. This is a Khavareji approach. When Khawarej wanted to oppose Caliphate of Imam Ali used the verse of Quran which says: “there is no verdict, except Allah’s”. Imam Ali begins his response to them by calling Khawarej using verse of Quran in such an ugly way as “کلمه الحق یراد بها الباطل” (This is a right word for batil (falsehood) purpose).

Now if those Ahadith are authentic, using them here for such a purpose is ”کلمه الحق یراد بها الباطل”.

Moreover, we have ahadith about those people who pave the ground for Imam Mahdi’s reappearance. Also, there are famous ahadith about flag of righteous groups before reappearance like flags of Khorasani and Yemani. So...

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6 hours ago, IbnSina said:

I know you dislike Iran and Iranians even without the Ayatollahs involved because you think they all dislike Turks, but to make such an accusation, it is not a smal thing to claim.

Be careful of such accusations because they might come back to haunt you in a day of great need.

No. Wrong.

I learned some Persian because I loved the language.

My playlist was full of Persian artists when I was listening music, I loved Persian music.

I love Persian culture. I like Persian people. I love Persian elegies.

My marja is Sayed Sistani h.a. who is a Persian.

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On 12/1/2016 at 5:48 AM, DigitalUmmah said:

@A true Sunni you keep talking about the spying in Khandaq and I have re read whatever I could find, but I still fail to see the relevance. 

in khandaq, the holy prophet (S) dispatched spies to find some information, then report back to him. the prophet (S) never went to the kuffar, promised X if they did Y, and then when he got what he wanted said "hahaha lol jk" and went back on his word

As this wasn't expanded upon:

"A man by the name of Naeem bin Masud Ashjai visited the Prophet, and declared he had three days ago become a Muslim, but had concealed the fact from the Quraish and that he was now ready to perform any service the Prophet should require, and if permitted, would create dissension between Quraish and Bani Quraiza.

The Prophet accordingly directed him to go and say what he might think expedient. He then went to Abu Sufyan who knew nothing of his having become a Muslim, and said to him, “You know my friendship for you, and how much I wish that God would favor you with His aid against your enemies. Verily, I have heard that Muhammad has formed a treaty with Jews that, when they are admitted into your ranks, they shall unexpectedly attack you, and thus enable him to overcome you. On condition of this treachery, he has promised them houses and lands taken from Bani Nuzayr and Bani Qinqaa.

My advice is that you don’t permit them to enter your army until they have delivered to you some of their chiefs, to be sent as hostages to Mecca, and thus secure yourselves from their treachery.” Abu Sufyan replied, “May God give you favor and a good reward for your counsel!” After that he came to Bani Quraiza and they were unaware of his conversion. He said: “O Kaab, you know my friendship to you.

Abu Sufyan has decided to drive those Jews from their forts and made them confront Muhammad and if they are victorious, it would be our victory. And if Muhammad wins, only they will be killed as they will be in the forefront and we will run away. And you must not join his forces till you don’t take some hostages from their chiefs so that if Muhammad is not defeated, they should not be allowed to go free.

And till the treaty between you and Muhammad is not fulfilled anew. If Quraish flees without defeating Muhammad, Muhammad will definitely kill all of you.” Kaab said: “You have done me a favor. We will not leave the fort before taking ten hostages from them.” And according to the report of Shaykh Tabarsi he told Abu Sufyan: “I have heard that Bani Quraiza is regretting their violation of treaty and they have sent a message to Muhammad that they will take ten hostages from you and send them to Muhammad so that he can eliminate him.

And that they will support him in the battle to make amends to him.

By thus deceiving both parties, Naeem succeeded in exciting hostility between the Quraish and Bani Quiraiza.

And it is narrated from Imam Muhammad Baqir (a.s.) in Qurbul Asnad that Amirul Momineen (a.s.) said: Whatever I narrate from the Holy Prophet (S) is absolutely correct. Even if I fall down from the sky or if a bird plucks me up, I would prefer it to attribute falsehood to him. If I say anything during a battle, it may be against the facts because the battle depends on deceit and trickery."

[Hayat al-Qulub, Vol.2]

https://www.al-islam.org/hayat-al-qulub-vol-2-allamah-muhammad-baqir-al-majlisi/battle-khandaq

Edited by Shaykh Patience101

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On 12/3/2016 at 3:46 AM, celestial said:

- وأخبرنا علي بن أحمد البندنيجي، عن عبيد الله بن موسى العلوي، عن علي بن إبراهيم بن هاشم، عن أبيه، عن عبد الله بن المغيرة، عن عبد الله بن مسكان، عن مالك بن أعين الجهني قال: سمعت أبا جعفر الباقر يقول:

كل راية ترفع - أو قال: تخرج - قبل قيام القائم صاحبها طاغوت.

Ali bin Ahmad al-Bandaneeji narrated from Obaydillah bin Musa al-Alawi from Ali bin Ibraheem bin Hisham from his father from Abdullah bin al-Mugheera from Abdullah bin Miskan that Malik bin A’yun al-Juhani had said: “I heard Abu Ja'far al-Baqir (as) saying:

Every banner that is raised-or comes out-before the appearance of al-Qa’im (as) will be of an oppressive arrogant.”

 

وأخبرنا علي بن أحمد، عن عبيد الله بن موسى، عن أحمد بن محمد بن خالد، عن علي بن الحكم، عن أبان بن عثمان، عن الفضيل بن يسار قال: سمعت أبا عبد الله جعفر بن محمد يقول:

مَن خرج يدعو الناس وفيهم مَن هو أفضل منه فهو ضالٌّ مبتدعٌ. ومَن ادّعى الإمامة من الله وليس بإمامٍ فهو كافر.

Ali bin Ahmad narrated from Obaydillah bin Musa from Ahmad bin Muhammad bin Khalid from Ali bin al-Hakam from Abban bin Uthman from al-Fudhayl bin Yasar that Abu Abdullah Ja'far bin Muhammad as-Sadiq (as) had said:

“Whoever invites people to follow him and there is someone better than him among people, is a deviate and heretic and whoever pretends that he is an imam inspired by Allah, is an unbeliever.”

 

حدثنا محمد بن همام قال: حدثنا جعفر بن محمد بن مالك قال: حدثني أحمد بن علي الجعفي، عن محمد بن المثني الحضرمي، عن أبيه، عن عثمان بن زيد عن جابر، عن أبي جعفر محمد بن علي الباقر قال:

مثلُ خروج القائم منّا أهل البيت كخروج رسول الله ، ومثل مَن خرج منا أهل البيت قبل قيام القائم مثل فرخ طار فوقع مِن وكره فتلاعَبت به الصبيان.

Muhammad bin Hammam narrated from Ja'far bin Muhammad bin Malik from Ahmad bin Ali al-Ju’fi from Muhammad bin al-Muthanna al-Hadhrami from his father from Uthman bin Zayd from Jabir that Abu Ja'far al-Baqir (as) had said:

“The advent of al-Qa'im (as) is like the advent of the messenger of Allah (as). If any of us, Ahlul Bayt, rises before the advent of al-Qa'im (as), he will be like a young bird that flies and falls down and then children play with it.”

 

Let me see.

Attempted to ignite Shia masses and engage them in wars worldwide despite hadiths suggests otherwise? Checked. (Khomeini)

Invited people to themselves despite there were/are many scholars who are more qualified than them? Checked. (Khamanei / Khomeini)

Raised flags before the al-Qaim a.s.? Checked.

As a british zionist agent shia who is on a MI6 payroll, I'd like to remind the words of Ahlulbayt a.s. to those who has eyes to see, who has heart to feel, who has mind to understand. Wassalam.

Do actually think you can justify your position form shi'i ahadith?

 

1.     Tawqi‘ ash-Sharif [noble signed decree]

"The reply to the letter of Ishaq ibn Ya‘qub written by Haḍrat Wali al-‘Asr, the Imam of the Age (‘a). In the said letter Ishaq ibn Ya‘qub posed questions to the Imam (‘a) one of which is: “What do we have to do in case of occurring social problems [al-hawadith al-waqi‘ah] during the period of occultation?” In reply to this question, the Imam (‘a) said:

وَ أَمَّا ٱلْحَوَادِثُ ٱلْوَاقِعَةِ فَارْجِعُوا فِيهَا إِلىٰ رُوَاةِ حَدِيثُنَا فَإِنَّهُمْ حُجَّتِي عَلَيكُمْ وَ أَنَا حُجَّةُ اللهِ عَلَيهِمْ.

“In case of occurring social problems, refer for guidance to those who relate from us, for they are my argument [hujjah] against you, and I am Allah’s argument against them.” ”

[Ikmāl ad-Dīn wa Itmām an-Ni‘mah by Shaykh aṣ-Ṣadūq , vol. 1, p. 483; al-Shaykh al-Ansari, al-Makasib; al-Tusi, Kitab al-Qayba, p. 290; Shaikh Muhammad Hassan in Jawaher al-Kalam, Volume 15, p. 422; Shaikh Morteza Ansari in al-Aada wa al-Shahadat, p. 46; Shaikh Morteza Haeri in Salat al-Jum’a, p. 154; Kashif al-Qeta in al- Ferdus al-A’la, p. 54]

2.     Maqbulah of ‘Umar ibn Hanzalah

“Imam as-Sadiq (‘a) says:

مَنْ كَانَ مِنْكُمْ قَدْ رَوىٰ حَدِيثُنَا وَ نَظَرَ في حَلاَلِنَا وَ حَرَامِنَا وَ عَرَفَ أَحْكَامَنَا فَلْيَرْضُوا بِهِ حَكَمًا فَإِنّي قَدْ جَعَلْتُهُ عَلَيْكُمْ حَاكِمًا فَإِذَا حَكَمَ بِحُكْمِنَا فَلَمْ يَقْبَلْهُ مِنْهُ فَإِنَّمَا إِسْتَخَفَّ بِحُكْمِ اللهِ وَ عَلَيْنَا رَدَّ وَ الرَّادُّ عَلَيْنَا كَالرَّادَّ عَلىٰ حَدِّ الشِّرْكِ بِاللهِ.

“If there is a person among you who narrates from us, is versed in the lawful and the unlawful, and is well acquainted with our laws and ordinances, accept him as judge and arbiter, for I have appointed him as a ruler over you. So, if he rules according to our law and you reject his ruling, you will belittle Allah’s law and oppose us, and to oppose us means to oppose Allah, and opposing Him is tantamount to associating partners with Him.” ”

[Usul al-Kāfī, vol. 1, p. 67; Wasā’il ash-Shī‘ah, vol. 18, 98; Al-Tusi, Tahzib al- Ahkam , Kitab al-Qada, Volume 6, p. 218, Hadith 514; Shaykh al-Ansari, Kitab al-Qada wa al-Shahadat, p. 48]

3.     The Tradition of Abu Khadija

“Abu Khadija said: I was commanded by the Imam [Ja'far as-Sadiq (pbuh)] to convey the following message to our friends [Shi’a]: 'when enmity and dispute arise among you, or you disagree concerning the receipt or payment of a sum of money, be sure not to refer the matter to one of these malefactors for judgment. Designate as judge and arbiter someone amongst you who is acquainted with our junctions concerning what is permitted and what is prohibited, for I appoint such a man as judge over you. Let none of you take your complaint against another of you to the tyrannical ruling power.’ ”

[Al-Kolayni, Al-Foru’ men al-Kafi, Kitab al-Qada, Volume 7, p. 412; Al-Tusi, Al-Tahzib, Kitab al-Qada, Volume 6, p. 303; Shaikh al-Saduq, Man la Yahzoruhu al-Faqih, Volume 3, p. 2; al-Khomeini; Shaykh Muhammad Hassan, Jawaher al-Kalam, Volume 21, p. 395 and Volume 40, p. 17]

4. 

“Amody transmits a tradition from the Commander of the faithful, Ali (pbuh): ‘The ulema [scholars] are the rulers [hakim] over people.’ ”

[Amodi, Qorar al-Hekam, Volume 1, p. 137, 506]

5.    

“Imam al-Hussain said: “The administration of all affairs of the society is in the hands of men of Divine knowledge, who are faithful custodians of His commandments and instructions about lawful and unlawful matters (Halal) and what is (Haram).” ”

[Tuhaf al-‘Uqal, Harrani Iibn Shobeh, Volume 1, p.238.

6.      

“Concerning the four great fuqaha: Abul Hasan Zurarah Ibn A'yan, Abu Ja'far Muhammad Ibn Muslim, Abu Basir Layth Ibn Al-Bakhtari and Abul Qasim Barid Ibn Mu'awiyah, who were among his students, Imam Al-Sadiq (S) said: "They are the trustees of Allah for the administration of the permissible and forbidden in religion." ”

[The Development of Shi'i Islamic Jurisprudence on Death and Dying from the Fourth/Tenth to the Eighth/Fourteenth Centuries, Hasnain Kassamali]

7.      

“The tenth Imam, Ali Al-Hadi (S) said: "After the occultation of your Qa'im a group of the 'ulemah will call upon people to believe in al-Qa'im's imamah and defend his religion by using proofs sent by Allah, so that they might save the weak minded faithful from either the deceptions of Shaitan or the deceptions of those opposed to Ali." ”

[Al-Ihtijaj, Al-Tabrasi, vol 2, p 260]

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Just now, Shaykh Patience101 said:

Do actually think you can justify your position form shi'i ahadith?

 

1.     Tawqi‘ ash-Sharif [noble signed decree]

"The reply to the letter of Ishaq ibn Ya‘qub written by Haḍrat Wali al-‘Asr, the Imam of the Age (‘a). In the said letter Ishaq ibn Ya‘qub posed questions to the Imam (‘a) one of which is: “What do we have to do in case of occurring social problems [al-hawadith al-waqi‘ah] during the period of occultation?” In reply to this question, the Imam (‘a) said:

وَ أَمَّا ٱلْحَوَادِثُ ٱلْوَاقِعَةِ فَارْجِعُوا فِيهَا إِلىٰ رُوَاةِ حَدِيثُنَا فَإِنَّهُمْ حُجَّتِي عَلَيكُمْ وَ أَنَا حُجَّةُ اللهِ عَلَيهِمْ.

“In case of occurring social problems, refer for guidance to those who relate from us, for they are my argument [hujjah] against you, and I am Allah’s argument against them.” ”

[Ikmāl ad-Dīn wa Itmām an-Ni‘mah by Shaykh aṣ-Ṣadūq , vol. 1, p. 483; al-Shaykh al-Ansari, al-Makasib; al-Tusi, Kitab al-Qayba, p. 290; Shaikh Muhammad Hassan in Jawaher al-Kalam, Volume 15, p. 422; Shaikh Morteza Ansari in al-Aada wa al-Shahadat, p. 46; Shaikh Morteza Haeri in Salat al-Jum’a, p. 154; Kashif al-Qeta in al- Ferdus al-A’la, p. 54]

2.     Maqbulah of ‘Umar ibn Hanzalah

“Imam as-Sadiq (‘a) says:

مَنْ كَانَ مِنْكُمْ قَدْ رَوىٰ حَدِيثُنَا وَ نَظَرَ في حَلاَلِنَا وَ حَرَامِنَا وَ عَرَفَ أَحْكَامَنَا فَلْيَرْضُوا بِهِ حَكَمًا فَإِنّي قَدْ جَعَلْتُهُ عَلَيْكُمْ حَاكِمًا فَإِذَا حَكَمَ بِحُكْمِنَا فَلَمْ يَقْبَلْهُ مِنْهُ فَإِنَّمَا إِسْتَخَفَّ بِحُكْمِ اللهِ وَ عَلَيْنَا رَدَّ وَ الرَّادُّ عَلَيْنَا كَالرَّادَّ عَلىٰ حَدِّ الشِّرْكِ بِاللهِ.

“If there is a person among you who narrates from us, is versed in the lawful and the unlawful, and is well acquainted with our laws and ordinances, accept him as judge and arbiter, for I have appointed him as a ruler over you. So, if he rules according to our law and you reject his ruling, you will belittle Allah’s law and oppose us, and to oppose us means to oppose Allah, and opposing Him is tantamount to associating partners with Him.” ”

[Usul al-Kāfī, vol. 1, p. 67; Wasā’il ash-Shī‘ah, vol. 18, 98; Al-Tusi, Tahzib al- Ahkam , Kitab al-Qada, Volume 6, p. 218, Hadith 514; Shaykh al-Ansari, Kitab al-Qada wa al-Shahadat, p. 48]

3.     The Tradition of Abu Khadija

“Abu Khadija said: I was commanded by the Imam [Ja'far as-Sadiq (pbuh)] to convey the following message to our friends [Shi’a]: 'when enmity and dispute arise among you, or you disagree concerning the receipt or payment of a sum of money, be sure not to refer the matter to one of these malefactors for judgment. Designate as judge and arbiter someone amongst you who is acquainted with our junctions concerning what is permitted and what is prohibited, for I appoint such a man as judge over you. Let none of you take your complaint against another of you to the tyrannical ruling power.’ ”

[Al-Kolayni, Al-Foru’ men al-Kafi, Kitab al-Qada, Volume 7, p. 412; Al-Tusi, Al-Tahzib, Kitab al-Qada, Volume 6, p. 303; Shaikh al-Saduq, Man la Yahzoruhu al-Faqih, Volume 3, p. 2; al-Khomeini; Shaykh Muhammad Hassan, Jawaher al-Kalam, Volume 21, p. 395 and Volume 40, p. 17]

4. 

“Amody transmits a tradition from the Commander of the faithful, Ali (pbuh): ‘The ulema [scholars] are the rulers [hakim] over people.’ ”

[Amodi, Qorar al-Hekam, Volume 1, p. 137, 506]

5.    

“Imam al-Hussain said: “The administration of all affairs of the society is in the hands of men of Divine knowledge, who are faithful custodians of His commandments and instructions about lawful and unlawful matters (Halal) and what is (Haram).” ”

[Tuhaf al-‘Uqal, Harrani Iibn Shobeh, Volume 1, p.238.

6.      

“Concerning the four great fuqaha: Abul Hasan Zurarah Ibn A'yan, Abu Ja'far Muhammad Ibn Muslim, Abu Basir Layth Ibn Al-Bakhtari and Abul Qasim Barid Ibn Mu'awiyah, who were among his students, Imam Al-Sadiq (S) said: "They are the trustees of Allah for the administration of the permissible and forbidden in religion." ”

[The Development of Shi'i Islamic Jurisprudence on Death and Dying from the Fourth/Tenth to the Eighth/Fourteenth Centuries, Hasnain Kassamali]

7.      

“The tenth Imam, Ali Al-Hadi (S) said: "After the occultation of your Qa'im a group of the 'ulemah will call upon people to believe in al-Qa'im's imamah and defend his religion by using proofs sent by Allah, so that they might save the weak minded faithful from either the deceptions of Shaitan or the deceptions of those opposed to Ali." ”

[Al-Ihtijaj, Al-Tabrasi, vol 2, p 260]

Celestial is not speaking about marja'iyya, he is speaking about Wilayat Al-Faqih.

He can correct me if I'm wrong, but he is saying anyone who creates a "Shi'i Islamic Government" is wrong. Or at least having a scholar dictate the law and order. Because he feels that is the Ma'soom's job.

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1 minute ago, E.L King said:

Celestial is not speaking about marja'iyya, he is speaking about Wilayat Al-Faqih.

He can correct me if I'm wrong, but he is saying anyone who creates a "Shi'i Islamic Government" is wrong. Or at least having a scholar dictate the law and order. Because he feels that is the Ma'soom's job.

Many of the traditions I listed specifically appoint a faqeeh as the ruler in the absence of al-Qa'im

Which negates the insinuation that he is trying to make that we should all curl up quietly in our homes till the Imam comes.

Edited by Shaykh Patience101

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1 minute ago, E.L King said:

Celestial is not speaking about marja'iyya, he is speaking about Wilayat Al-Faqih.

He can correct me if I'm wrong, but he is saying anyone who creates a "Shi'i Islamic Government" is wrong. Or at least having a scholar dictate the law and order. Because he feels that is the Ma'soom's job.

Thing is, this point of view is quite the cop out, and absolves the person from any responsibility. Well, the ma'soom isn't here, so we can't do anything! 

Also, how certain are people they will obey a ma'soom in the future? Many didn't in the past, and you wonder what excuses they made up back then? So maybe the prescence of a ma'soom or not is really inconsequential here. 

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5 hours ago, E.L King said:

Celestial is not speaking about marja'iyya, he is speaking about Wilayat Al-Faqih.

He can correct me if I'm wrong, but he is saying anyone who creates a "Shi'i Islamic Government" is wrong. Or at least having a scholar dictate the law and order. Because he feels that is the Ma'soom's job.

Yes that's true, because as I said in earlier posts, whatever Iran does, right or wrong, it is automatically counted as the general Shia behaviour/viewpoint. Think about all the events when the Islamic Revolution happened. Think about all the justice in Iran going on from the beginning of the revolution until today, it is all done in the name of SHIA ISLAM.

So, Shia Islam can't be a tool for dictatorships, can't be a tool for politics, because it is beyond all those, it is sacred.

Many prominent Ayatollahs refused the idea of establishing an Islamic Government when revolution happened, they weren't arrogants, they were aware of these truths.

We don't need a government above us to protect us or dictate what should we do globally. Russia is secular, China is secular, Europe is secular, but still they intervene in middle east so could a secular Iran.

Edited by celestial

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7 minutes ago, celestial said:

Yes that's true, because as I said in earlier posts, whatever Iran does, right or wrong, it is automatically counted as the general Shia behaviour/viewpoint. Think about all the events when the Islamic Revolution happened. Think about all the justice in Iran going on from the beginning of the revolution until today, it is all done in the name of SHIA ISLAM.

So, Shia Islam can't be a tool for dictatorships, can't be a tool for politics, because it is beyond all those, it is sacred.

Many prominent Ayatollahs refused the idea of establishing an Islamic Government when revolution happened, they weren't arrogants, they were aware of these truths.

We don't need a government above us to protect us or dictate what should we do globally. Russia is secular, China is secular, Europe is secular, but still they intervene in middle east so could a secular Iran.

The problem with that is you will hardly ever have a "secular marja". I don't know of any mainstream "secular marja". Another problem is that it is impossible for a Muslim, himself to be secular, by nature, if he follows Islamic Law.

Two of our 10 Furus are: Amr Bil Maroof and Nahi an al Munkar. How can you practice them in a secular environment, at the same time claim their wajib?

http://www.islamic-laws.com/AmrBilMaroof.htm

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1 hour ago, E.L King said:

The problem with that is you will hardly ever have a "secular marja". I don't know of any mainstream "secular marja". Another problem is that it is impossible for a Muslim, himself to be secular, by nature, if he follows Islamic Law.

Two of our 10 Furus are: Amr Bil Maroof and Nahi an al Munkar. How can you practice them in a secular environment, at the same time claim their wajib?

http://www.islamic-laws.com/AmrBilMaroof.htm

What were scholars doing before Iran?

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37 minutes ago, celestial said:

What were scholars doing before Iran?

Same as the scholars in Najaf who lived under Saddam. The reason why they couldn't implement the Sharia was because they couldn't, the central government doesn't allow it. However, Sayyed Al-Khoei for example, is all for implementing it depending on certain circumstances, that were certainly not available under Saddam.

Furthermore you claim you want a secular Iran. I presume you don't mean a Shahi dictatorship, but something like Indonesia. The only reason why the believers under the Shah could not practice Nahi an Al Munkar properly, is that they would be locked up as religious extremists or something. So under your system, how can uou have secularism but also allow people to practice something which is wajib, like Nahi an Al-Munkar? If you say we stop people from practicing it, then you are promoting sin, it would be like stopping people from fasting or praying, where do you draw the line?

Edited by E.L King

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On 12/1/2016 at 11:48 AM, DigitalUmmah said:

 

@A true Sunni you keep

talking about the spying in Khandaq and I have re read whatever I could find, but I still fail to see the relevance. 

in khandaq, the holy prophet (S) dispatched spies to find some information, then report back to him. the prophet (S) never went to the kuffar, promised X if they did Y, and then when he got what he wanted said "hahaha lol jk" and went back on his word

Its in the link you sent me and its about espionage and lying. I hope you aren't going to nit pick.

Pretty clear cut what bit are you disputing

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I know this topic is old but I would also like to add

1.that pretty much anyone can upload to Wikileaks whether it gets accepted or not is a different issue but its completely possible that someone intelligent working for the enemies can fake such documents mentioned by the OP. Main point not everything from wikileaks is 100% true due to the fact that anyone can upload. 

Below is Edward Snowden critcizing Wikileaks for its lack of filtering information, I,e Wikileaks just publishing without filtering and checking it properly.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/30/us/snowden-wikileaks.html

2. Apparently It comes from the US government about Iran common sense says to at least question it.

3. Information comes from secondary sources I.e he said that he said. So its justified to think that such information presented is not completely true. 

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