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In the Name of God بسم الله

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Salam to everyone out there!

I urge everyone to read this post CAREFULLY.

Being a sunni myself I find many sunni beliefs to be absolutely strange. I am born into a sunni family and have been practicing sunni Islam for decades. However, sunnis' blind belief in bukhari narrations have shocked me. It wasn't until I read bukhari myself. I found many ridiculous things in that book. In fact, many things found in bukhari are total non-sense and it looks like someone deliberately tried to corrupt this collection by adding false things in it. For example, bukhari contains a narration that states that monkey used to stone and kill each other for committing adultery. I find it strange that how can Sunnis believe in such a book that narrates such things. I asked a question about authenticity of bukhari from a strict bukhari believer some time ago. I told him that I don't believe in some narrations of bukhari, and he became furious and angry. He started to say things like "You are infected with believe that not all narrations in bukhari are authentic". The aim of this post is to investigate some claims sunnis put forward to make the case of bukhari strong. Here are some reasons for why sunnis believe in bukhari, and I want shia perspective on this.

Reason #1. Sound chain of Narrators in Bukhari's collection

Sunnis claim that bukhari's collection contain narrations that are extremely sound. It is very unlikely that bukhari's collection might contain fabricated narrations.

Reason #2 Reliable Narrators

Secondly, Sunnis also state that Bukharis collection is authentic because all the narrators in bukhari's collection are authentic, according to sunni Islam.

Reason #3 Bukhari's criteria of hadith selection

This third reason is also put forward by most sunnis. They claim that bukhari's criteria of selecting hadith was very strict. He never included anything in his collection until or unless he investigated and thoroughly examined narrations himself. So he cannot include fabricated narrations in his collection.

Reason #4 Bukhari was a hadith expert

Sunnis and many followers of bukhari also state that Bukhari was a hadith expert. He was a learned scholar who had great knowledge of hadith. Therefore, he should be trusted.

My main question is: what is shia perspective on these reasons sunnis give for authenticity of bukhari?

I think that the shia view is completely different from Sunni view of hadith. Shias believe that there is no such thing as "Sahih collection of hadith" because hadith collectors were fallible men. In fact, shias don't even consider their own hadith books as "100% authentic". I personally think that shias are RIGHT on this subject. I endorse this shia belief. However, I am not considering conversion to shia sect because of some issues associated with shia sect (I will create a new post about these issues later). However, can a sunni remain a sunni if he doesn't believe in SOME narrations of bukhari?

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:bismillah:

:salam:

 

15 minutes ago, Yousuf said:

Reason #1. Sound chain of Narrators in Bukhari's collection

Sunnis claim that bukhari's collection contain narrations that are extremely sound. It is very unlikely that bukhari's collection might contain fabricated narrations.

 

Our sunni brothers and sisters believe that according to their Rijal, i.e their beliefs about the trustworthiness of narrators, the good memory of narrators, the piety, the narrators in Bukhari are almost all to be trusted. Additionally, Bukhari had another condition whereby he stated that the narrators ought to have met one another, for him to take it.

This doesn't mean anything however, because in order to believe the above, you would have to also believe the same for those that are claimed to be trustworthy narrators.  

15 minutes ago, Yousuf said:

Reason #3 Bukhari's criteria of hadith selection

This third reason is also put forward by most sunnis. They claim that bukhari's criteria of selecting hadith was very strict. He never included anything in his collection until or unless he investigated and thoroughly examined narrations himself. So he cannot include fabricated narrations in his collection.

This is true. Bukhari's book of ahadith contains what he 'pre-screened' to be reliable and authentic by sunni rijal standards. Our problem is not the criteria Bukhari used, or that he was strict in what kinds of ahadith he added in, but the problem goes much deeper than that.

How do we know, the narrators he deemed to be reliable are actually reliable? How do we not know they had corrupted aqeedah [leading them to narrate absurd things]? 

Even if the narrators in the chain are deemed to  be trustworthy, truthful, have a good memory, according to the sunni view, this itself means little. The core of the issue is, we do not agree that some of the narrators only told the truth, were trustworthy and so on. So while Bukhari was strict this was by his standards, and by our standards, we would deem him to include many weak ahadith that we would never at all even consider.

While we personally deem Bukhari as someone who probably honestly and sincerely compiled those hadith, because many of them are also found in books of compiled by Imam Muslim, Imam Tirmidhi, Ni'sai, Abudawud, Ibn Majah et al, our issue is that we believe sunni hadith science is flawed in deeming unreliable people reliable, and reliable people unreliable.

It is very important here to note, we shia's can accept a lot of what is in Bukhari. However, there are fundamental narrations fabricated and ones we do not believe in - compare Bukhari , with Al Kafi, on the subject of Tawheed, the most important of all:

 

Contention one: Can we see Allah swt, comprehend him or limit him in our knowledge?

 

Bukhari

9.530:

The Prophet said, "You will definitely see your Lord with your own eyes."

9.531:

Allah’s Apostle came out to us on the night of the full moon and said, "You will see your Lord on the Day of Resurrection as you see this (full moon) and you will have no difficulty in seeing Him."

 

Al Kafi

H 261, Ch. 9, h 10- Graded SAHIH by Alama Majlisi

"I asked Imam abul Hassan al-Rida (a.s.), about Allah if He can be described (defined in words). The Imam (a.s.) said, "Have you not read the Quran?" I replied, "Yes, I do read the Quran." He then said, "Have you not read the words of Allah, the Most High, "No mortal eyes can see Him, but He can see all eyes. He is All-kind and All-aware." (6:103) I replied, "Yes, I have read them." The Imam (a.s.) said, "Do they know the meaning of the eyes?" I replied, "Yes, they do." The Imam (a.s.) said, "What is it?" I replied, " It means seeing with the eyes." Then the Imam said, the Awham(mentioned above) of the heart is far greater comprehensive in knowledge than eye-witnessing. It is not able to comprehend Him but He comprehends all things.

 

(One paragraph taken from the hadith) H 253, Ch. 9, h 2  Graded SAHIH by Alama Majlisi

The Imam said, "How can a person who brought such messages to all creatures and told them

that he has brought such messages from Allah and called them to Allah by His commands and said, "The eyes can not comprehend Him." (6:103) "They can not limit Him through their knowledge." (20:110) "There is nothing similar to Him." (42:11), then he would say, "I saw Him with my own eyes? I did limit Him in my knowledge and that He is similar to a man? Should you not be ashamed of yourselves? Even the atheist have not said that the Prophet first brought one thing from Allah and then announced from Him other things contrary to the first."

 

 

 

 

 

 

Contention two- Does Allah change states, or undergo change?

 

Bukhari:

"...What keeps you here when all the people have gone?' They will say, 'We parted with them (in the world) when we were in greater need of them than we are today, we heard the call of one proclaiming, 'Let every nation follow what they used to worship,' and now we are waiting for our Lord.' Then the Almighty will come to them in a shape other than the one which they saw the first time, and He will say, 'I am your Lord,' and they will say, 'You are not our Lord.' And none will speak: to Him then but the Prophets, and then it will be said to them, 'Do you know any sign by which you can recognize Him?' They will say. 'The Shin,' and so Allah will then uncover His Shin whereupon every believer will prostrate before Him and there will remain those who used to prostrate before Him just for showing off and for gaining good reputation..."

 

Al Kafi

H 313, Ch. 16, h 4 – Graded Sahih by Alama Majlisi

The Imam said, "There is nothing in the universe, but that is subject to annihilation, alteration, change, decay, transition from one color to another, from one shape to another and from one quality to another.They increase, decrease and change from decrease to increase, except He, Who is the Lord of the worlds. He alone is eternal and in one state. He is the first, before every thing and the last eternally. His attributes and names do not change as they do in the case of others. A man at one time is dust, at other time flesh and blood, then turns into decaying bones and finally becomes dust. A piece of date  at one time is raw, at another time ripe, mature and then it dries up. With every change, the names and attributes also change. Allah, the Majestic, the Glorious is different from all such things."

 

 

 

 

 

 

Contention three: Does Allah swt have a form?

 

Bukhari:

"...What keeps you here when all the people have gone?' They will say, 'We parted with them (in the world) when we were in greater need of them than we are today, we heard the call of one proclaiming, 'Let every nation follow what they used to worship,' and now we are waiting for our Lord.' Then the Almighty will come to them in a shape other than the one which they saw the first time, and He will say, 'I am your Lord,' and they will say, 'You are not our Lord.' And none will speak: to Him then but the Prophets, and then it will be said to them, 'Do you know any sign by which you can recognize Him?' They will say. 'The Shin,' and so Allah will then uncover His Shin whereupon every believer will prostrate before Him and there will remain those who used to prostrate before Him just for showing off and for gaining good reputation..."

 

 

Al Kafi:
Graded Muwathaq
He said: I said to Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام: I heard Hisham b. al-Hakam narrate from you that Allah has a body, supported by light, His recognition is necessary and He bestows this [knowledge] upon whom He wills from the creation. So he عليه السلام said: Glorified be He, whom no one knows how He is except Himself. There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the Hearing, the Seeing. He cannot be limited, nor can He be felt, nor can He be moved, nor can He be comprehended [by sight, nor by] the senses, nor can He be contained in anything, nor does He have a body, nor does He have a form, nor a figure, nor a confine. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith278)

 

 

 

 

Contention : Does Allah swt move position?

 

Bukhari:

1145( Abu Hurairah)

“The Lord (Allah swt) descends every night to the lowest heaven when one-third of the night remains and says: ‘Who will call upon Me, that I may answer Him? Who will ask of Me, that I may give him? Who will seek My forgiveness, that I may forgive him?’”

 

Man Lā Yaḥḍuruh al-Faqīh, Graded sahih by alama majlisi

 ‘O son of the Messenger of Allāh, what do you say about the ḥadīth which the people narrate from the Messenger of Allāh, that he said: ‘Allāh descends in every night of Friday (i.e. Thursday night) to the earth’s heavens’’.

He said: ‘May Allāh curse (la`na) those who distort the words from its place, by Allāh, the Messenger of Allāh has not said that! Verily, he said: ‘Allāh) sends down an angel to the earth’s heavens in the last third of every night, and the first part of the night of Friday (i.e. Thursday night). And He commands him to call, ‘Are there any (who) asks, so that I can grant him?’; ‘Are there any repenters that I should forgive him?’;..."

Edited by uponthesunnah

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Salam op 

Mm waiting to know ur reasonsywhat is stopping u to tryst Shiism 

And we also see chain of narrations

If its from other 3 khalifs we don't believe coz we believe islam divine religion gods religion can only be taught by lords men divine  whim Allah had sent for that purpose so if chain of narration includes some unreliable ppl we don't consider it authentic

   And  honestly m glad to know that their are ppl who ponder into books and meaning and try out themselves to know reality coz ppl generally bar their thinking up to ancestors ideology and philosophy so keep it up

May Allah guide u and all of us to the right path 

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12 hours ago, uponthesunnah said:

This is true. Bukhari's book of ahadith contains what he 'pre-screened' to be reliable and authentic by sunni rijal standards. Our problem is not the criteria Bukhari used, or that he was strict in what kinds of ahadith he added in, but the problem goes much deeper than that.

How do we know, the narrators he deemed to be reliable are actually reliable?

How do we not know they had corrupted aqeedah [leading them to narrate absurd things]? 

@Yousuf @Pearl3112

We know that primarily through books of tawarikh/seerah etc (that were written before the books of ahadith) which record the biographies of those individuals. Some of those books like those from ibn Saad, ibn hisham, Ibn Qutaybah (Ibn Ishaq, or by Ibn munabbah [their works survive in other books]) were already written before al Bukhari.

There are also books which give details on individuals written close to the time of al-Bukhari or al Muslim like Al Bidayah wan Nihaya etc.

Books on asma ar rijal were also compiled by muhadditheen and if we had not known if a narrator was reliable or not through written records then we could also not classify/categorize ahadith.

12 hours ago, uponthesunnah said:

Even if the narrators in the chain are deemed to  be trustworthy, truthful, have a good memory, according to the sunni view, this itself means little. The core of the issue is, we do not agree that some of the narrators only told the truth, were trustworthy and so on. So while Bukhari was strict this was by his standards, and by our standards, we would deem him to include many weak ahadith that we would never at all even consider.

It is one of the most important factors in the grading of ahadith and therefore it means alot in Sunni science of hadith.

 

12 hours ago, uponthesunnah said:

While we personally deem Bukhari as someone who probably honestly and sincerely compiled those hadith, because many of them are also found in books of compiled by Imam Muslim, Imam Tirmidhi, Ni'sai, Abudawud, Ibn Majah et al, our issue is that we believe sunni hadith science is flawed in deeming unreliable people reliable, and reliable people unreliable.

It is very important here to note, we shia's can accept a lot of what is in Bukhari. However, there are fundamental narrations fabricated and ones we do not believe in - compare Bukhari , with Al Kafi, on the subject of Tawheed, the most important of all:

 

Contention one: Can we see Allah swt, comprehend him or limit him in our knowledge?

This accusation is so repetitive on shiachat and misleading too that i would request you to discuss it over here before spreading the post elsewhere. 

Ahlus Sunnah has a simple and plain aqeedah "We (humans or just any creature) can neither comprehend Him, nor can limit Him in our knowledge."

Imam Ibn Habban:

He is seen on the day of Judgment, and the visions do not encompass Him when it sees Him, for Al-Idrak is encompassment, and Ru’yah is looking, and Allah is seen and not encompassed.” Sahih Ibn Habban (d354 hijri) 

For further proof, i will present aqeedah of Ahlus Sunnah from the famous and accepted book of Imam Thawai (b. 239 hijri):

38. He is beyond having limits placed on Him, or being restricted, or having parts or limbs. Nor is He contained by the six directions as all created things are.

35. The Seeing of Allah by the People of the Garden is true, without their vision being all-encompassing and without the manner of their vision being known. As the Book of our Lord has expressed it: "Faces on that Day radiant, looking at their Lord." (al-Qiyama 75:22-3) The explanation of this is as Allah knows and wills. Everything that has come down to us about this from the Messenger, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, in authentic traditions, is as he said and means what he intended. We do not delve into that, trying to interpret it according to our own opinions or letting our imaginations have free rein. No one is safe in his religion unless he surrenders himself completely to Allah, the Exalted and Glorified and to His Messenger, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, and leaves the knowledge of things that are ambiguous to the one who knows them.

37. Belief of a man in the seeing of Allah by the People of the Garden is not correct if he imagines what it is like or interprets it according to his own understanding, since the interpretation of this seeing or indeed, the meaning of any of the subtle phenomena which are in the realm of Lordship, is by avoiding its interpretation and strictly adhering to the submission. This is the religion of Muslims. Anyone who does not guard himself against negating the attributes of Allah, or likening Allah to something else, has gone astray and has failed to understand Allah's glory, because our Lord, the Glorified and the Exalted, can only possibly be described in terms of oneness and absolute singularity and no creation is in any way like Him.

12 hours ago, uponthesunnah said:

Contention two- Does Allah change states, or undergo change?

 

Bukhari:

"...What keeps you here when all the people have gone?' They will say, 'We parted with them (in the world) when we were in greater need of them than we are today, we heard the call of one proclaiming, 'Let every nation follow what they used to worship,' and now we are waiting for our Lord.' Then the Almighty will come to them in a shape other than the one which they saw the first time, and He will say, 'I am your Lord,' and they will say, 'You are not our Lord.' And none will speak: to Him then but the Prophets, and then it will be said to them, 'Do you know any sign by which you can recognize Him?' They will say. 'The Shin,' and so Allah will then uncover His Shin whereupon every believer will prostrate before Him and there will remain those who used to prostrate before Him just for showing off and for gaining good reputation..."

 

Al Kafi

H 313, Ch. 16, h 4 – Graded Sahih by Alama Majlisi

The Imam said, "There is nothing in the universe, but that is subject to annihilation, alteration, change, decay, transition from one color to another, from one shape to another and from one quality to another.They increase, decrease and change from decrease to increase, except He, Who is the Lord of the worlds. He alone is eternal and in one state. He is the first, before every thing and the last eternally. His attributes and names do not change as they do in the case of others. A man at one time is dust, at other time flesh and blood, then turns into decaying bones and finally becomes dust. A piece of date  at one time is raw, at another time ripe, mature and then it dries up. With every change, the names and attributes also change. Allah, the Majestic, the Glorious is different from all such things."

 

 

Contention three: Does Allah swt have a form?

 

Bukhari:

"...What keeps you here when all the people have gone?' They will say, 'We parted with them (in the world) when we were in greater need of them than we are today, we heard the call of one proclaiming, 'Let every nation follow what they used to worship,' and now we are waiting for our Lord.' Then the Almighty will come to them in a shape other than the one which they saw the first time, and He will say, 'I am your Lord,' and they will say, 'You are not our Lord.' And none will speak: to Him then but the Prophets, and then it will be said to them, 'Do you know any sign by which you can recognize Him?' They will say. 'The Shin,' and so Allah will then uncover His Shin whereupon every believer will prostrate before Him and there will remain those who used to prostrate before Him just for showing off and for gaining good reputation..."

 

 

Al Kafi:
Graded Muwathaq
He said: I said to Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام: I heard Hisham b. al-Hakam narrate from you that Allah has a body, supported by light, His recognition is necessary and He bestows this [knowledge] upon whom He wills from the creation. So he عليه السلام said: Glorified be He, whom no one knows how He is except Himself. There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the Hearing, the Seeing. He cannot be limited, nor can He be felt, nor can He be moved, nor can He be comprehended [by sight, nor by] the senses, nor can He be contained in anything, nor does He have a body, nor does He have a form, nor a figure, nor a confine. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith278)

 

Contention two- Does Allah change states, or undergo change?

Contention three: Does Allah swt have a form?

The shin is not the shin that we usually know. It may be a sign or an event for people for getting ready for further events or judgment and is a as part of yaum ul qiyamah and as promised by Allah.

According to a hadith in Sahih Muslim and as per the understanding of ulemas... the uncovering of shin means a great/serious event that is unveiled "That will be the Day which will make children hoary-headed men because of its terror and that will be the Day when the Shin will be uncovered." Sahih Muslim

It is argued that Arabs used to uncover their shins before wars as a sign of getting ready for the trouble of the war. 

Regarding "Contentions":

#37 Anyone who does not guard himself against negating the attributes of Allah, or likening Allah to something else, has gone astray and has failed to understand Allah's glory, because our Lord, the Glorified and the Exalted, can only possibly be described in terms of oneness and absolute singularity and no creation is in any way like Him.

When we say that He is beyond comprehension, then how can we say something with surety about His form? 

To me THOSE who either claim that Allah has a form and THOSE who deny that saying He does not... both are trying to claim that they know more and comprehend more about Allah and both are trying to explain how He is like.

12 hours ago, uponthesunnah said:

Contention : Does Allah swt move position?

 

Bukhari:

1145( Abu Hurairah)

“The Lord (Allah swt) descends every night to the lowest heaven when one-third of the night remains and says: ‘Who will call upon Me, that I may answer Him? Who will ask of Me, that I may give him? Who will seek My forgiveness, that I may forgive him?’”

 

Man Lā Yaḥḍuruh al-Faqīh, Graded sahih by alama majlisi

 ‘O son of the Messenger of Allāh, what do you say about the ḥadīth which the people narrate from the Messenger of Allāh, that he said: ‘Allāh descends in every night of Friday (i.e. Thursday night) to the earth’s heavens’’.

He said: ‘May Allāh curse (la`na) those who distort the words from its place, by Allāh, the Messenger of Allāh has not said that! Verily, he said: ‘Allāh) sends down an angel to the earth’s heavens in the last third of every night, and the first part of the night of Friday (i.e. Thursday night). And He commands him to call, ‘Are there any (who) asks, so that I can grant him?’; ‘Are there any repenters that I should forgive him?’;..."

Contention : Does Allah swt move position?

I can show you similar narrations from shia text but what you actually need to see and understand is the explanation  and not to go on the zahir of the wordings all the time... as even in Quran you will find Allah saying 38:75 [ Allah ] said, "O Iblees, what prevented you from prostrating to that which I created with My hands?

6:158 Do they [then] wait for anything except that the angels should come to them or your Lord should come or that there come some of the signs of your Lord? The Day that some of the signs of your Lord will come no soul will benefit from its faith as long as it had not believed before or had earned through its faith some good. Say, "Wait. Indeed, we [also] are waiting."

Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani states the following about the hadith of nuzul: “The creed of salaf and khalaf scholars of Ahl as-Sunnah is as follows: Allah is free and away from moving, traveling and entering something, There is nothing similar to Him.” (Ibn Hajar, Fathu’l-Bari, 7/124)

According to Ahlus Sunnah, Allah does not come down to the sky of the earth in person; He comes down with His knowledge and power.

Edited by Bukhari8k

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In this thread I saw many different names I don't know them having imam word before it like ppl are addresses with imam word

Y is it ??

I mean I haven't heard any of other names except 12 imam are ppl laqab of 12 imams as

And if not  they y are they addressed like that  

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And honestly if really i wish to know Allah I would only ponder in nehjul balagah 

Becz its the way maula as described explained Allah and he was closest to prophet pbuh 

So sorry but no one else no other book then nehjul balagah in matter of tawheed or related to god d

Coz Ali as taught what he got from prophet

I don't know my post goes with op's topic or not 

But I like it

Bcz prophet on n number of occasions gave chances to everybody to preach and make one believe in tawheed and all time it was only my maula who successfully did it 

Without using swords

He is  prophets successor who else can be better then him 

Sorry this is not about bukhari so op continue with bukhari 

 

 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Pearl3112 said:

In this thread I saw many different names I don't know them having imam word before it like ppl are addresses with imam word

Y is it ??

I mean I haven't heard any of other names except 12 imam are ppl laqab of 12 imams as

And if not  they y are they addressed like that  

Imam is an arabic word which means leader and can be used in different ways for example one who leads prayer is also called imam. 

6 minutes ago, Pearl3112 said:

And honestly if really i wish to know Allah I would only ponder in nehjul balagah 

You should first try Quran itself. Although, Sheikh Radi did a good job by collecting letters and sermons related to Ali al Murtadha (ra) in nehj ul balagha from different sources (from sunni too) for the benefit of the readers however the author and the book gives lesser information and importance to recording sources or authenticity of the text making it not a very reliable book even in the eyes of ahle tashi ulemas.

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28 minutes ago, Pearl3112 said:

And honestly if really i wish to know Allah I would only ponder in nehjul balagah 

Becz its the way maula as described explained Allah and he was closest to prophet pbuh 

So sorry but no one else no other book then nehjul balagah in matter of tawheed or related to god d

Coz Ali as taught what he got from prophet

I don't know my post goes with op's topic or not 

But I like it

Bcz prophet on n number of occasions gave chances to everybody to preach and make one believe in tawheed and all time it was only my maula who successfully did it 

Without using swords

He is  prophets successor who else can be better then him 

Sorry this is not about bukhari so op continue with bukhari 

 

 

 

 

Sister, you need to read the Qur'an as well, for it is the word of Allah (swt). Nahjul Balagha is a nice collection of letters, sure but some of the letters may not be authentic and thus Nahjul Balagha isn't a reliable source. The Qur'an, on the hand, is from Allah (swt) Himself and  far more reliable than Nahjul Balagha. 

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3 hours ago, Bukhari8k said:

 

It is one of the most important factors in the grading of ahadith and therefore it means alot in Sunni science of hadith.

 

It also means a lot in shia ilm al rijal. What i was saying is, even if Bukhari was strict, and so on, the criteria he used to compile was flawed i.e with respect, his view of who was reliable and the official sunni position on it.

It's the same as you would assert for us, there are more 'saheeh' narrations in Al Kafi without repetition than there are in Bukhari. But you would argue our criteria of rijal is flawed, and so it means nothing. 

With regards to the attributes of Allah azwj - are you an ashari brother? My post was mostly targeted to the salafi's, and i feel the ahadith are so problematic, even the ashari's who have tried to be more logical about it must, in my eyes, acknowledge the ahadith are the source of the massive division in the ummah on such a fundamental aqeedah issue of Tawheed. [Ashari vs athari/ahlul-hadith/salafi]. 

Edited by uponthesunnah

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Well I mentioned nehjul balagah bcz we were discussing books other then Quran like bukhari offcrse I follow Quran read it first

And yes imam Ali has also described Quran very well I mean its fazilat 

But other than Quran the only book which has most importance in world is nehjul balagah

And I would like to add 

One can never understand Qur'an and hold it and unless u don't hook up with ahlulbait as

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4 hours ago, Bukhari8k said:

@Yousuf @Pearl3112

We know that primarily through books of tawarikh/seerah etc (that were written before the books of ahadith) which record the biographies of those individuals. Some of those books like those from ibn Saad, ibn hisham, Ibn Qutaybah (Ibn Ishaq, or by Ibn munabbah [their works survive in other books]) were already written before al Bukhari.

There are also books which give details on individuals written close to the time of al-Bukhari or al Muslim like Al Bidayah wan Nihaya etc.

Books on asma ar rijal were also compiled by muhadditheen and if we had not known if a narrator was reliable or not through written records then we could also not classify/categorize ahadith.

It is one of the most important factors in the grading of ahadith and therefore it means alot in Sunni science of hadith.

 

This accusation is so repetitive on shiachat and misleading too that i would request you to discuss it over here before spreading the post elsewhere. 

Ahlus Sunnah has a simple and plain aqeedah "We (humans or just any creature) can neither comprehend Him, nor can limit Him in our knowledge."

Imam Ibn Habban:

He is seen on the day of Judgment, and the visions do not encompass Him when it sees Him, for Al-Idrak is encompassment, and Ru’yah is looking, and Allah is seen and not encompassed.” Sahih Ibn Habban (d354 hijri) 

For further proof, i will present aqeedah of Ahlus Sunnah from the famous and accepted book of Imam Thawai (b. 239 hijri):

38. He is beyond having limits placed on Him, or being restricted, or having parts or limbs. Nor is He contained by the six directions as all created things are.

35. The Seeing of Allah by the People of the Garden is true, without their vision being all-encompassing and without the manner of their vision being known. As the Book of our Lord has expressed it: "Faces on that Day radiant, looking at their Lord." (al-Qiyama 75:22-3) The explanation of this is as Allah knows and wills. Everything that has come down to us about this from the Messenger, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, in authentic traditions, is as he said and means what he intended. We do not delve into that, trying to interpret it according to our own opinions or letting our imaginations have free rein. No one is safe in his religion unless he surrenders himself completely to Allah, the Exalted and Glorified and to His Messenger, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, and leaves the knowledge of things that are ambiguous to the one who knows them.

37. Belief of a man in the seeing of Allah by the People of the Garden is not correct if he imagines what it is like or interprets it according to his own understanding, since the interpretation of this seeing or indeed, the meaning of any of the subtle phenomena which are in the realm of Lordship, is by avoiding its interpretation and strictly adhering to the submission. This is the religion of Muslims. Anyone who does not guard himself against negating the attributes of Allah, or likening Allah to something else, has gone astray and has failed to understand Allah's glory, because our Lord, the Glorified and the Exalted, can only possibly be described in terms of oneness and absolute singularity and no creation is in any way like Him.

The shin is not the shin that we usually know. It may be a sign or an event for people for getting ready for further events or judgment and is a as part of yaum ul qiyamah and as promised by Allah.

According to a hadith in Sahih Muslim and as per the understanding of ulemas... the uncovering of shin means a great/serious event that is unveiled "That will be the Day which will make children hoary-headed men because of its terror and that will be the Day when the Shin will be uncovered." Sahih Muslim

It is argued that Arabs used to uncover their shins before wars as a sign of getting ready for the trouble of the war. 

Regarding "Contentions":

#37 Anyone who does not guard himself against negating the attributes of Allah, or likening Allah to something else, has gone astray and has failed to understand Allah's glory, because our Lord, the Glorified and the Exalted, can only possibly be described in terms of oneness and absolute singularity and no creation is in any way like Him.

When we say that He is beyond comprehension, then how can we say something with surety about His form? 

To me THOSE who either claim that Allah has a form and THOSE who deny that saying He does not... both are trying to claim that they know more and comprehend more about Allah and both are trying to explain how He is like.

I can show you similar narrations from shia text but what you actually need to see and understand is the explanation  and not to go on the zahir of the wordings all the time... as even in Quran you will find Allah saying 38:75 [ Allah ] said, "O Iblees, what prevented you from prostrating to that which I created with My hands?

6:158 Do they [then] wait for anything except that the angels should come to them or your Lord should come or that there come some of the signs of your Lord? The Day that some of the signs of your Lord will come no soul will benefit from its faith as long as it had not believed before or had earned through its faith some good. Say, "Wait. Indeed, we [also] are waiting."

Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani states the following about the hadith of nuzul: “The creed of salaf and khalaf scholars of Ahl as-Sunnah is as follows: Allah is free and away from moving, traveling and entering something, There is nothing similar to Him.” (Ibn Hajar, Fathu’l-Bari, 7/124)

According to Ahlus Sunnah, Allah does not come down to the sky of the earth in person; He comes down with His knowledge and power.

but do the sunni scholars say that? do they clarify that it is indeed His knowledge and power that comes down.They It is Allah  And what does His knowledge and Power come down mean anyway.

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11 minutes ago, sidnaq said:

but do the sunni scholars say that? do they clarify that it is indeed His knowledge and power that comes down.They It is Allah

As earlier, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani:  The creed of salaf and khalaf scholars of Ahl as-Sunnah is as follows: Allah is free and away from moving, traveling and entering something, There is nothing similar to Him.” (Fathu’l-Bari, 7/124)

Ibn Rajab: “That is, Allah's coming down to the sky of the earth is not like the coming down of creatures. On the contrary, His coming down takes place in a way that is appropriate for His power, majesty and knowledge, which surrounds everything." Fath al-Bari bi Sharh Sahih al-Bukhari

4 hours ago, sidnaq said:

 And what does His knowledge and Power come down mean anyway.

Well there may be possible explanations out there but we don't deem it's explanation necessary, neither do we agree with anyone who explains such things in detail with full conviction.. as we don't have idrak of Allah or any of his attributes.

1 hour ago, Pearl3112 said:

But other than Quran the only book which has most importance in world is nehjul balagah

and why is that sister?

1 hour ago, uponthesunnah said:

It also means a lot in shia ilm al rijal. What i was saying is, even if Bukhari was strict, and so on, the criteria he used to compile was flawed i.e with respect, his view of who was reliable and the official sunni position on it.

The Sunni consensus is that (1) they agree on all those marfu ahadith quoting words or actions of Rasool Allah (saw) are saheeh in both al Bukhari and al Muslim (2) but still they are not like Quranic ayahs as the words are the words of human beings (3) and Allah has not promised its protection like Quran (4) and there is still margin of error in minute details (5) but otherwise the accounts related to Rasool Allah (saw) is correct.

As far as accounts related to other personalities are concerned or hadiths not prophetic, then there is some ikhtilaf and i will give u an example. When you say that his choice of people was flawed, then although i am not sure which person you are pointing towards but in my example the personality is the principal narrator and he is someone like Marwan.... then al Bukhari is relying on Imam Zain ul Abideen (ra) the second in chain. for example if Marwan says "something" and Imam Zain ul Abideen after hearing him says that Marwan said "so and so" then Marwan certainly said "so and so" but it would not mean that that "so and so" also needs to be true. So here ahlus Sunnah will not go on to defend the matn by Marwan but what has been related about him.

1 hour ago, uponthesunnah said:

It's the same as you would assert for us, there are more 'saheeh' narrations in Al Kafi without repetition than there are in Bukhari. But you would argue our criteria of rijal is flawed, and so it means nothing. 

those writers must have taken great pain to pen down riwayahs. i think that al bukhari or sihah sittah should be compared to al kafi or asha arba'a in another topic on another day.

4 hours ago, uponthesunnah said:

With regards to the attributes of Allah azwj - are you an ashari brother? My post was mostly targeted to the salafi's, and i feel the ahadith are so problematic, even the ashari's who have tried to be more logical about it must, in my eyes, acknowledge the ahadith are the source of the massive division in the ummah on such a fundamental aqeedah issue of Tawheed. [Ashari vs athari/ahlul-hadith/salafi]. 

I am ashari like overwhelming majority of Ahlus Sunnah and in faru or fiqah i follow Abu Hanifah. As i said that hadith are not problematic but the way you interpret it can be. As we can also find certain verses in quran (a couple i just mentioned) which if taken literally would be problematic. I am not sure what standard salafi aqeedah is on this question but you can quote their stance.

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