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In the Name of God بسم الله
Zamestaneh

Which Sunnis are considered Murtadeen/Munafiqeen?

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If a Sunni ______, is he a Murtad or a Munafiq, or is he still Muslim?

1. Believes in Sunni Islam but is ignorant of Shi'ism

2. Believes in Sunni Islam and rejects Shi'ism with knowledge

3. Believes in Sunni Islam and rejects Shi'ism with knowledge and speaks out against Shia

4. Believes in Sunni Islam and rejects Shi'ism but is ignorant of it yet he speaks out against Shia

Can a Sunni ever be a Mu'min?

To clarify: in this discussion, Salafis come under the Sunni banner.

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11 minutes ago, Zamestaneh said:

If a Sunni ______, is he a Murtad or a Munafiq, or is he still Muslim?

1. Believes in Sunni Islam but is ignorant of Shi'ism

2. Believes in Sunni Islam and rejects Shi'ism with knowledge

3. Believes in Sunni Islam and rejects Shi'ism with knowledge and speaks out against Shia

4. Believes in Sunni Islam and rejects Shi'ism but is ignorant of it yet he speaks out against Shia

Can a Sunni ever be a Mu'min?

To clarify: in this discussion, Salafis come under the Sunni banner.

First we must make it clear, the term "mu'min" is only given to the Shi'i Twelver.

Secondly, Sunnis are 100% Muslims in this life. However, if they reject wilayah knowing fully well it is the truth, due to stubborness for example, some scholars might consider them kafir.

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:bismillah:

You are essentially asking this on an open forum, where people of all ages, including those not qualified, can give their opinions. Furthermore, you may get some people who are extreme and revile some of our own ulema, who give replies. Keep that in mind.

I don't want to answer this directly, because i am not sure. But i do want to state the following[to help clarify the status of sunni's in our madhab]:

1. We do not perform blanket takfir on the ulema ahlus-sunnah as kuffar. A number of salafi sheikhs have performed mass takfir on all of our ulema, regarding the layman [meaning us] as muslims only on account of our ignorance.

2. It is permissible to pray behind a sunni. Whatever stipulations or conditions are given, the fact remains, we are allowed to pray behind them. Conversely, it is forbidden among some salafi-groups to even be friends with, let alone pray behind a shia.

3. It it permissible, according to the majority of our ulema, to marry sunni's. Again, according to salafi's, marriage to shia's is forbidden. 

4. It is highly encouraged to befriend, be cordial, be respectful, visit, and honour sunni's. While it is also encouraged to be kind and respectful to shia's in the salafi-creed, being good friends with them is highly frowned upon, and deep association discouraged among many circles.

 

Any answers given must take into account the above.

 

Edited by uponthesunnah

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21 minutes ago, Zamestaneh said:

If a Sunni ______, is he a Murtad or a Munafiq, or is he still Muslim?

1. Believes in Sunni Islam but is ignorant of Shi'ism

2. Believes in Sunni Islam and rejects Shi'ism with knowledge

3. Believes in Sunni Islam and rejects Shi'ism with knowledge and speaks out against Shia

4. Believes in Sunni Islam and rejects Shi'ism but is ignorant of it yet he speaks out against Shia

Can a Sunni ever be a Mu'min?

To clarify: in this discussion, Salafis come under the Sunni banner.

Interestingly, you use the term 'shi'sim' for shias, but 'islam' for sunni's, implying what exactly? If i have read too much into it, please forgive me.

We actually regard sunni's to follow 'sunni islam', and we regard the hanbali, shafi' , hanafi', maliki's as 'madhabs' and not cults. I would say 'sunni islam', rather than 'sunnism'.

 

Edited by uponthesunnah

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17 minutes ago, Zamestaneh said:

If a Sunni ______, is he a Murtad or a Munafiq, or is he still Muslim?

1. Believes in Sunni Islam but is ignorant of Shi'ism

2. Believes in Sunni Islam and rejects Shi'ism with knowledge

3. Believes in Sunni Islam and rejects Shi'ism with knowledge and speaks out against Shia

4. Believes in Sunni Islam and rejects Shi'ism but is ignorant of it yet he speaks out against Shia

Can a Sunni ever be a Mu'min?

To clarify: in this discussion, Salafis come under the Sunni banner.

What is this ___________ for?  If a Sunni ___________________? means what??

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12 minutes ago, E.L King said:

Secondly, Sunnis are 100% Muslims in this life. However, if they reject wilayah knowing fully well it is the truth, due to stubborness for example, some scholars might consider them kafir.

We do not make blanket takfir on their scholars either. Salafi-leaning clerics have called ayatullah sistani, khomeini, khamanei, mutahari,khoi', i.e our greatest and well respected leaders, as Kuffar. 

 

Edited by uponthesunnah

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12 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Munafiqeen are to be treated as Muslims unless they explicitly revoke their Shahada. Besides, we wouldn't know if they were or not, we would see only their outward behaviour which could be based on nifaq or ignorance.

[1] [4] Astray

[2] Murtad* with extreme emphasis on 'with knowledge'

[3] Kafir* with extreme emphasis on 'with knowledge'

* Though I say this as clear as day, it is very difficult to actually implement the ruling of 2 and 3 , since  only Allah alone knows how much knowledge one has. Hence, in almost EVERY practical case we can only go as far as #1, cases #2 and #3 are rules in theory. Anyone who issues ruling #2 and #3 will have to account for it on Yaumul Hisaab.

I would like this part to be emphasized. Remember, brother Ozzy said the judgement is left to Allah azwj in almost every practical case. 

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Honestly, I consider some sunnis to be very similar to us. I know some of my sunni friends who weep in the month of muharram and even attend majlis. I think it is wrong to consider them as kafir even though their views might vary slightly(such as not believing twelve imam etc.)

We have to learn to respect others and being a shia I believe this is what is gonna cause shia-sunni unity. I know some extremist sunni scholars that say stuff like praying with a shias is equivalent of not praying at all. So we shias have to not be the same as some misleaded sunnis and have to learn to treat them as our muslim brothers.

Salafis/wahabis is a complete different story and they are the ones that have very falwed views.

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1 hour ago, uponthesunnah said:

Interestingly, you use the term 'shi'sim' for shias, but 'islam' for sunni's, implying what exactly? If i have read too much into it, please forgive me.

We actually regard sunni's to follow 'sunni islam', and we regard the hanbali, shafi' , hanafi', maliki's as 'madhabs' and not cults. I would say 'sunni islam', rather than 'sunnism'.

 

There is no intention behind it - it's just how I typed it without any conscious attempt to make nuances between sect.

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3 hours ago, Zamestaneh said:

If a Sunni ______, is he a Murtad or a Munafiq, or is he still Muslim?

1. Believes in Sunni Islam but is ignorant of Shi'ism

2. Believes in Sunni Islam and rejects Shi'ism with knowledge

3. Believes in Sunni Islam and rejects Shi'ism with knowledge and speaks out against Shia

4. Believes in Sunni Islam and rejects Shi'ism but is ignorant of it yet he speaks out against Shia

Can a Sunni ever be a Mu'min?

To clarify: in this discussion, Salafis come under the Sunni banner.

bismillah.gif

What are you trying to accomplish with these questions?? I don't think you can accomplish anything good  except fitna, because you know there are some Shia extremists that will call our Sunni brothers as kuffars and that will divide us instead of uniting us. And the Sunni extremists, specially the Wahabis/Salafis will use this against us in recruiting more terrorists to kill our Shia brothers and sisters around the world.

May Allah swt curse those who create  fitna between Sunnis and Shias intentionally, whether they claim to be Sunnis or Shia, Aameen Ya Rabbul Aalameen!

Edited by Endtimes

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3 hours ago, uponthesunnah said:

Interestingly, you use the term 'shi'sim' for shias, but 'islam' for sunni's, implying what exactly? If i have read too much into it, please forgive me.

We actually regard sunni's to follow 'sunni islam', and we regard the hanbali, shafi' , hanafi', maliki's as 'madhabs' and not cults. I would say 'sunni islam', rather than 'sunnism'.

 

bismillah.gif

Obviously he is not a Shia! I cant call him a Sunni because a Sunni brother would never pose questions that can lead to fitna between two brothers. I would put him between Wahabi/Salafi and Nasibi... Allah o Aalam.

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3 hours ago, uponthesunnah said:

:bismillah:

You are essentially asking this on an open forum, where people of all ages, including those not qualified, can give their opinions. Furthermore, you may get some people who are extreme and revile some of our own ulema, who give replies. Keep that in mind.

I don't want to answer this directly, because i am not sure. But i do want to state the following[to help clarify the status of sunni's in our madhab]:

1. We do not perform blanket takfir on the ulema ahlus-sunnah as kuffar. A number of salafi sheikhs have performed mass takfir on all of our ulema, regarding the layman [meaning us] as muslims only on account of our ignorance.

2. It is permissible to pray behind a sunni. Whatever stipulations or conditions are given, the fact remains, we are allowed to pray behind them. Conversely, it is forbidden among some salafi-groups to even be friends with, let alone pray behind a shia.

3. It it permissible, according to the majority of our ulema, to marry sunni's. Again, according to salafi's, marriage to shia's is forbidden. 

4. It is highly encouraged to befriend, be cordial, be respectful, visit, and honour sunni's. While it is also encouraged to be kind and respectful to shia's in the salafi-creed, being good friends with them is highly frowned upon, and deep association discouraged among many circles.

 

Any answers given must take into account the above.

 

I am aware there are differing shades of Shi'ism much like how we have differing shades of Sunnism, so I don't take for granted that people may give conflicting opinions; nonetheless I still wish to see what the scholastic opinions out there are describing the fundamental status of Sunnis, and not just read the 'unity' rhetoric which is normally stated publically.

One thing I disagree with in your posts (which you unfortunately do a lot) is try to make a distinction between Sunni and Salafi as if they are very very different, which may perhaps be due to a lack of understanding, or perhaps the you think the difference on Athaari and Ashari theology or the issue of Istigatha means most bits of Fiqh are different also, or perhaps it's because you wish to vilify Salafis; I will not make presumptions on your intentions, but I am just saying how it appears. On the contrary, Sunni Fiqh positions (defined by the four Madhabs) is often similar if not the same as Salafis in many cases, as you will see:

1. Non-Salafis believe Shia are deviant (not upon a 'difference of opinion'), and they are on varying levels of Kufr - if one holds certain beliefs, it is sufficient in their eyes to take one out of the fold of Islam. This is the same position of the Salafis; I have not read a non-Salafi Fatwa regarding the Shia ullema specifically, but that is an issue which some Salafi sheyukh have gone further to speak about as you know.

2. Non-Salafis consider it impermissible to pray behind a Shia if it is known that they believe in Kufr (from the Sunni perspective), and examples of Kufr include denying the companionship of Abu Bakr or Umar, believing various Sahabah to be apostates, and many other things; believing Ali should have been caliph does not constitute Kufr. If it is not known what the Shia individual leading prayer believes, then it is Mukhrooh to pray behind them and avoided if possible.

3. Non-Salafis (like above) consider it impermissible to marry Shia if it is known they believe in Kufr (again as defined by Sunni belief), and if their belief is unknown (and all one knows is that they are Shia), then it is still impermissible to marry them. It is only permissible to marry them if one is certain of their opinions, and even then that is Mukhrooh. Marriage with Zaydi Shia is more permissible and not disliked as they do not have disparaging views of various Sahabah. This is a view the Salafis agree with, although obviously what Salafis believe to constitute Kufr may be broader.

4. Non-Salafis believe that being cordial with the Shia is fine; being close friends is not - they apply the same ruling to non-Muslims. Any association with Shia is an opportunity to give Dawah. Salafis agree with this view; some are indeed stricter and say that association is impermissible - it hinges upon how one defines association and friendship.

I am sure you could perhaps find the odd quote here and there from the odd Mufti or Hamza Yusuf or someone which might go against what I said above, but these Sunni non-Salafi views are representative of the general view. 

For further reading, check Islamqa.org; Islamqa.info is the Salafi Fatwa site, whereas the former is non-Salafi.

Edited by Zamestaneh

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1 hour ago, Endtimes said:

bismillah.gif

Obviously he is not a Shia! I cant call him a Sunni because a Sunni brother would never pose questions that can lead to fitna between two brothers. I would put him between Wahabi/Salafi and Nasibi... Allah o Aalam.

I am a cheeky little Salafi Umari Bakri Sunni ;) Jokes aside, all Salafis are Sunnis; I am perplexed why so many Shia believe otherwise - do they even understand what a Sunni even is??

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2 hours ago, Endtimes said:

bismillah.gif

What are you trying to accomplish with these questions?? I don't think you can accomplish anything good  except fitna, because you know there are some Shia extremists that will call our Sunni brothers as kuffars and that will divide us instead of uniting us. And the Sunni extremists, specially the Wahabis/Salafis will use this against us in recruiting more terrorists to kill our Shia brothers and sisters around the world.

May Allah swt curse those who create  fitna between Sunnis and Shias intentionally, whether they claim to be Sunnis or Shia, Aameen Ya Rabbul Aalameen!

To seek to understand Shi'ism truly is to remove all the sugar coating, concealing of beliefs etc - if one believes they are closer to the Haq InshaAllah, they should not shy away from expressing it. It's hard to trust those who are evasive of talking about what they truly believe, so I seek to understand Shi'isn as it fundamentally is.

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9 minutes ago, Zamestaneh said:

To seek to understand Shi'ism truly is to remove all the sugar coating, concealing of beliefs etc - if one believes they are closer to the Haq InshaAllah, they should not shy away from expressing it. It's hard to trust those who are evasive of talking about what they truly believe, so I seek to understand Shi'isn as it fundamentally is.

One can not seek the truth when one already made up their mind, even when the truth hit them on their face.

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40 minutes ago, Endtimes said:

You proved me right! Look around you, time to repent and come to Islam...Allah is very Kind and very Merciful.

The Quran is sufficient as a judge between us. Christian monks and the Jinn did not need the Ahlul Bayt nor the Sahaba to call them to Islam, nor the Tafsir of the Ahlul Bayt, hearing the Quran was sufficient, so it is enough for us to understand fundamentally what Allah wants...

And having read the Quran cover to cover I see nothing affirming what Shia say about Imamate - a pillar of 'Islam' is missing, habibi - guide me please, Idk why our fundamental Aqeedah isn't in the Quran :(

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19 minutes ago, Endtimes said:

One can not seek the truth when one already made up their mind, even when the truth hit them on their face.

I agree :) If people read the Quran first before they were factory fed their belief from the pulpits like children learning complex sentence structures before their ABC, then perhaps they'd be able to understand better - similarly I read the Quran before looking into Shi'ism and Sunnism.

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27 minutes ago, Zamestaneh said:

The Quran is sufficient as a judge between us. Christian monks and the Jinn did not need the Ahlul Bayt nor the Sahaba to call them to Islam, nor the Tafsir of the Ahlul Bayt, hearing the Quran was sufficient, so it is enough for us to understand fundamentally what Allah wants...

And having read the Quran cover to cover I see nothing affirming what Shia say about Imamate - a pillar of 'Islam' is missing, habibi - guide me please, Idk why our fundamental Aqeedah isn't in the Quran :(

bismillah.gif

Surah Al-Kafiroun (The Unbeliever)

4qul

About JW Player 6.12.4945...
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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” Bismillahir-Rahmanir-Raheem
Qul ya ayyuhal-Kafiroun
La ‘a-budu ma ta’-bu-doun
Wa la antum ‘abidouna ma ‘a-bud
Wa la ana ‘abidum-ma ‘abadttum
Wa la antum ‘abiduna ma ‘a-bud
Lakum deenukum wa li-ya deen “

“ Say : O Al-Kafiroun ( disbelievers in Allah , in His Oneness , in His Angels , in His Books , in His Messengers , in the Day of Resurrection , and in Al-Qadar , etc )! I worship not that whch you worship, Nor will you worship that which I worship. And I shall not worship that which you are worshipping. Nor will you worship that which I worship. To you be your religion, and to me my religion (Islamic Monotheism).

 

Edited by Endtimes

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7 hours ago, uponthesunnah said:

 

1. We do not perform blanket takfir on the ulema ahlus-sunnah as kuffar. A number of salafi sheikhs have performed mass takfir on all of our ulema, regarding the layman [meaning us] as muslims only on account of our ignorance.

 

Your ulema are not superior than ur imams. According to ur imams ALL sunnis are nasibis & in ur cult a nasibi is regarded worst than a kafir. So the opinion of ur scholars have no worth.

 

Your renowned scholar Ni`matullah al-Jaza’iri says about a “Nasibi” in al-Anwar al-Nu`maniyya:

 

It was narrated from the Prophet(saw) that the sign of the Nawasib is favoring other than Ali over him (i.e. a Nasibi is anyone that favors anyone over Ali, be it Abu Bakr, Umar, or Uthman) …

 

& of course how can majlisi remain silent when it comes to hating sunnis, here is what he has to say in Haqq ul yaqeen:

 

It was asked from Imam Ali Naqi that what else we need to know besides that Nasibis give higher status to First Munafiq and Second Munafiq on Amir ul Momineen (i.e Ali) and that they believe in their imamate. He said “Whoever believes like that is a Nasibi” 

 

I am pretty sure that u r aware of what he means by first munafiq & second munafiq. 

 

 

 

Quote

2. It is permissible to pray behind a sunni. Whatever stipulations or conditions are given, the fact remains, we are allowed to pray behind them. Conversely, it is forbidden among some salafi-groups to even be friends with, let alone pray behind a shia.

 

Your scholars forbid their followers to pray behind sunni imams. Its is only allowed in when practicing taqqiya.

 

 

علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن حماد، عن حريز، عن زرارة قال: قلت لابي جعفر (عليه السلام): إن اناسا رووا عن أمير المؤمنين صلوات الله عليه أنه صلى أربع ركعات بعد الجمعة لم يفصل بينهن بتسليم؟ فقال: يازرارة إن أمير المؤمنين (عليه السلام) صلى خلف فاسق فلما سلم وانصرف قام أمير المؤمنين صلوات الله عليه فصلى أربع ركعات لم يفصل بينهن بتسليم فقال له رجل جنبه: ياأبا الحسن صليت أربع ركعات لم تفصل بينهن؟ فقال: إنها أربع ركعات مشبهات وسكت

فوالله ما عقل ما قال له

 

 

Ali bin Ibrahim from his father (Ibrahim bin Hashim) from Hamad (bin Isa) from Hariz (bin Abdillah) from Zurara (bin A'yan) who said :

I said to Abi Ja'far (a.s) :

The people narrate about the commander of the faithful - Ali (a.s) that he prayed four 'rakaat' (units) of prayer after friday (congregational) prayers without partitioning between them with the 'tasleem' (salutations of peace whilst sitting at the end of a prayer) in between (as one does in between two different, two-unit 'mustahhab' (recommended) prayers)

So He (a.s) said :

O! Zurara, indeed the commander of the faithful had prayed (the friday prayers) behind a fasiq (corrupted individual), so when he (the corrupted individual) completed that (leading the prayer) and left, the commander of the faithful stood up and prayed four 'rakaat' (units) of prayers without partitioning between them with the 'tasleem' (i.e He (a.s) prayed a complete 'Salatul Dhuhr'), so a man who was by his side (in the row) asked him : O Abal Hassan! you have prayed four units of prayer without partitioning between them? so He (a.s) said : They were four ambiguous (of doubtful nature) 'rakaat' (units) and remained silent;

So (Abi Ja'far (a.s) says) : I swear by Allah (s.w.t) he the man (who had asked the question) did not understand what was said to him (by Ali (a.s)).

Al Kafi باب الصلاة خلف من لا يقتدى به

Hasan Hadith according to Allamah Majlisi (r.a).

 

So u see, according to ur Imam the namaz of ur Ali ibn abi talib was doubtful & he prayed separately afterwards

 

Quote

3. It it permissible, according to the majority of our ulema, to marry sunni's. Again, according to salafi's, marriage to shia's is forbidden. 

 

You people have no idea who the real sunnis are. Even ur scholars fail to elaborate on this issue. Tbh there is no point discussing this matter as its is clear that all sunnis are nasibis according to  imami narrations.

 

Quote

4. It is highly encouraged to befriend, be cordial, be respectful, visit, and honour sunni's. While it is also encouraged to be kind and respectful to shia's in the salafi-creed, being good friends with them is highly frowned upon, and deep association discouraged among many circles.

 

Any answers given must take into account the above.

 

 

Salafis are the real Ahlus sunnah. Its the poor shi'ite education which youngsters like u get from their elders & make u think otherwise & by time it only gets worse. The term Wahabi used by ur cult is absolute nonsense. Because the differences were not started by the advent of Mohd bin Abdul Wahab. It were there 1400 years ago & at the time of the Rashidun caliphate there were no sufis or barelvis whom u consider the real sunnis (LOL)

Edited by Invoker

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Salam

Still there is a difference between someone who knowingly rejects the Imams A.S Wilayah and someone who does that out of ignorance or because he believed that what he was doing / believing in was the right...

It does not give you the right to go and believe each and every non-shia muslim is a disbeliever, this is what goes against the teachings of our Imams A.S (and not the view @Invoker is trying to "prove"):

 

“Muhammad Ibn Muslim, Abul Khaťťāb, and I were together in one place. Abul Khaťťāb asked, “What is your belief regarding one who doesn’t know the affair of Imāmate?” I said, “In my view he or she is a unbeliever.” Abul Khaťťāb said, “As long as the evidence is not complete for him or her, he or she is not a unbeliever; if the evidence is complete and still he or she doesn’t recognize it, then he or she is a unbeliever.” Muhammad Ibn Muslim said, “Glory be to God! If he or she doesn’t recognize the Imām and doesn’t show obstinacy or denial, how can he or she be considered an unbeliever? No, one who doesn’t know, if he doesn’t show denial, is not an unbeliever.” Thus, the three of us had three opposing beliefs.
“When the Ĥajj season came, I went for Ĥajj and went to Imām as-Ŝādiq (as). I told him of the discussion between the three of us and asked the Imam his view. The Imām replied, “I will reply to this question when the other two are also present. I and the three of you shall meet tonight in Minā near the middle Jamarah.” “That night, the three of us went there. The Imām, leaning on a cushion, began questioning us.”
What do you say about the servants, womenfolk, and members of your own families? Do they not bear witness to the unity of God?
I replied, “Yes.”
“Do they not bear witness to the prophecy of the Messenger?”
“Yes.” “Do they recognize the Imāmate and wilāyah (Divinely-appointed authority) like yourselves?”
“No.”
“So what is their position in your view?”
My view is that whoever does not recognize the Imām is an unbeliever.
“Glory be to God! Haven’t you seen the people of the streets and markets? Haven’t you seen the water-bearers?”
“Yes, I have seen and I see them.”
Do they not pray? Do they not fast? Do they not perform Ĥajj? Do they not bear witness to the unity of God and the prophethood of the Messenger?
“Yes.”
“Well, do they recognize the Imām as you do?”
“No.”
“So what is their condition?”
“My view is that whoever doesn’t recognize the Imām is a unbeliever.”
“Glory be to God! Do you not see the state of the Ka’bah and the circumambulation of these people? Don’t you see how the people of Yemen cling to the curtains of the Ka’bah?”
“Yes.”
“Don’t they profess monotheism and believe in the Messenger? Don’t they pray, fast, and perform Ĥajj?”
“Yes.”
“Well, do they recognize the Imām as you do?”
“No.”
“What is your belief about them?”
“In my view, whoever doesn’t recognize the Imām is an unbeliever.”
“Glory be to God! This belief is the belief of the Khārijites.
At that point the Imām said, “Now, do you wish me to inform you of the truth?”
Hāshim, who in the words of the late Faydh al-Kāshānī , knew that the Imām’s view was in opposition to his own belief, said, “No.”
The Imām said, “It is very bad for you to say something of your own accord that you have not heard from us.”
Hāshim later said to the others: “I presumed that the Imām affirmed the view of Muhammad Ibn Muslim and wished to bring us to his view.”

 

Another hadith:

 

I asked, ‘Is it not the case that she is either a believer or an unbeliever?’ The Imam said, ‘One who fasts, performs prayer, is pious before Allah and does not know what is your cause.’ I said, ‘Allah, the Most Majestic, the Most Holy, has said, ‘It is He Who has created you. Among you there are believer and unbelievers,’ (64:2) no, by Allah, there is no one in the people who is not a believer or an unbeliever.’ “The narrator has said that abu Ja’far, recipient of divine supreme covenant, then said, ‘The words of Allah are truer than your words, O Zurara. Have you not considered the words of Allah, the Most Majestic, the Most Holy, ‘ . . . they have mixed virtuous deeds with sinful ones. Perhaps Allah will forgive them. Allah is All-forgiving and All-merciful.’ (9:102) Why has Allah said, “perhaps”?’ I said, ‘They are either believing people or unbelievers.’ “The narrator has said that the Imam then asked, ‘What do you think of the words of Allah, the Most Majestic, the Most Holy, ‘As for the really weak and oppressed men, women, and children who were not able to find any means of obtaining their freedom or of having the right guidance, . . . ’ (4:98) guidance to belief?’ I said, ‘They are either believers or unbelievers.’ The Imam said, ‘By Allah they are not believing people nor unbelievers.’ Then the Imam turned to me and asked, ‘What do you think of the people of ‘A’raf?’ I said, ‘They are none other than either believers or unbelievers. If they enter paradise they are believers and if they go in the fire, they are unbelievers.’ The Imam said, ‘By Allah, they are not believers nor are they unbelievers. Were they believers they would have entered paradise like the other believing people. Were they unbelievers they would have gone in the fire like the other unbelievers. In fact, they are people whose good and bad deeds were equal. They had shortages of deeds. They will be as Allah, the Most Majestic, the Most Holy, has said.’ I asked, ‘Are they of the people of paradise or of the people of the fire?’ The Imam said, ‘Leave them alone as Allah has done.’ I asked, ‘Do you leave their affairs in postponement?’ The Imam said, ‘Yes, I do as Allah has done. If Allah wills He will send them to paradise through his favor, and if He wills He will drive them to the fire for their sins without being unjust to them.’ I said, ‘Will unbelievers go to paradise?’ The Imam said, ‘No.’ I asked, ‘Will anyone other than unbelievers go in the fire?’ “The narrator has said that the Imam said, ‘No, except what Allah will wish. O Zurara, I say, ‘What Allah wills and you do not say what Allah wills. When you will grow up you will turn around and your knots ease up (on your opponents).’”

Source: Usool Al-Kafi, Volume 2, Chapter, Hadiths #1 and #2

http://purifiedhousehold.com/salvation-of-non-shias/

 

May Allah SWT guide us all on the true path

Wsalam

 

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26 minutes ago, Zamestaneh said:

You will not worship what I worship? I worship Allah alone, without partner, and upon Him alone I call; don't you want to believe and call upon Allah alone too? :(:(:(

I do accept Allah alone, and He ordained the Imamate for us at Ghadir Khumm when Muhammad (saws) anointed Ali (as) as mawla and successor. However, you'll probably never accept this because you reject the hadiths as a source of information about Islamic history  because some guy thought that hadiths were unreliable and that Islam needs reform. That, to me is truly sad. 

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20 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

I do accept Allah alone, and He ordained the Imamate for us at Ghadir Khumm when Muhammad (saws) anointed Ali (as) as mawla and successor. However, you'll probably never accept this because you reject the hadiths as a source of information about Islamic history  because some guy thought that hadiths were unreliable and that Islam needs reform. That, to me is truly sad. 

I don't reject Hadiths, I just reject the conclusions Shia have reached from them :)

I still haven't been told why the Imamate is a pillar of Islam but it isn't in the Quran.

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7 minutes ago, Zamestaneh said:

I don't reject Hadiths, I just reject the conclusions Shia have reached from them :)

I still haven't been told why the Imamate is a pillar of Islam but it isn't in the Quran.

Ah, sorry, I thought you were a Qur'anist but exactly is your problem with the Jafari madhab, I might be able to help if you are interested but if not, I won't bother you. 

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2 hours ago, Zamestaneh said:

You will not worship what I worship? I worship Allah alone, without partner, and upon Him alone I call; don't you want to believe and call upon Allah alone too? :(:(:(

I do not worship the same God as you, your god can be seen, My God can never be seen! Your god has a long white  beard, your god has feet and sits on a throne... I do not worship that god that your sect has described, Big difference.

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1 minute ago, Endtimes said:

I do not worship the same God as you,

 

Yes very true, We worship Allah swt & call him for help instead of saying Ya Ali madad (nauzubillah) & attributing the sifaat of Allah to a human being. Learn the difference bw both.

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18 minutes ago, Invoker said:

 

Yes very true, We worship Allah swt & call him for help instead of saying Ya Ali madad (nauzubillah) & attributing the sifaat of Allah to a human being. Learn the difference bw both.

bismillah.gif

Yes, I can see how you are seeking help by blowing yourselves up Masjids, killing innocent Muslims and Christians! You are not a Sunni, you are a Wahabi/salafi/Nasibi just like other account(   Zamestaneh) whom admitted that you are a Salafi! Please make me and the rest of us Muslim Ummah understand on  how do you get 72 "virgins" in Heaven after  blowing innocent people up??

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23 minutes ago, Endtimes said:

bismillah.gif

Yes, I can see how you are seeking help by blowing yourselves up Masjids, killing innocent Muslims and Christians! You are not a Sunni, you are a Wahabi/salafi/Nasibi just like other account(   Zamestaneh) whom admitted that you are a Salafi! Please make me and the rest of us Muslim Ummah understand on  how do you get 72 "virgins" in Heaven after  blowing innocent people up??

 

We talking about worshipping Allah & u bring me this crap? Is this the best u can do? Suicide bombing in middle east was started by ur hezbollah faction & ur mullahs like Ayatollah Mohammad Taghi Mesbah Yazdi when he said

 

For sure, when protecting Islam and the Muslim `Ummah depends on martyrdom operations, it not only is allowed, but even is an obligation (wajib) as many of the Shi'ah great scholars and Maraje', including Ayatullah Safi Golpayegani and Ayatullah Fazel Lankarani, have clearly announced in their fatwas. Consider the rewayah from the prophet of Allah (SA) who said: "Whoever is killed in defence of his belongings, he/she is Shahid." (Wasa'il al-Shi'ah, v.15, p.121) Source : HERE

 

The Grand mufti of Saudia Arabia has made it clear on several occasions that killing innocent people in any way is haram. Is it so difficult for u to digest it or r u a 12 year old trying to battle loneliness & having complex issues?

As for u calling me a salafi, i call myself a muslim. Its just  for the satisfaction of retards like u i have to make it clear what my beliefs are.Yes, i follow the salaf. I reject polytheism in all regards. There is no forgiveness for shirk committed in any form. 

& its a shame ur cult always bring this petty topic of suicide bombing & relates it to the Salafis just to hide their evil & flawed doctrines.

Edited by Invoker

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19 minutes ago, Invoker said:

 

We talking about worshipping Allah & u bring me this crap? Is this the best u can do? Suicide bombing in middle east was started by ur hezbollah faction & ur mullahs like Ayatollah Mohammad Taghi Mesbah Yazdi when he said

 

For sure, when protecting Islam and the Muslim `Ummah depends on martyrdom operations, it not only is allowed, but even is an obligation (wajib) as many of the Shi'ah great scholars and Maraje', including Ayatullah Safi Golpayegani and Ayatullah Fazel Lankarani, have clearly announced in their fatwas. Consider the rewayah from the prophet of Allah (SA) who said: "Whoever is killed in defence of his belongings, he/she is Shahid." (Wasa'il al-Shi'ah, v.15, p.121) Source : HERE

 

The Grand mufti of Saudia Arabia has made it clear on several occasions that killing innocent people in any way is haram. Is it so difficult for u to digest it or r u a 12 year old trying to battle loneliness & having complex issues?

As for u calling me a salafi, i call myself a muslim. Its just  for the satisfaction of retards like u i have to make it clear what my beliefs are.Yes, i follow the salaf. I reject polytheism in all regards. There is no forgiveness for shirk committed in any form. 

& its a shame ur cult always bring this petty topic of suicide bombing & relates it to the Salafis just to hide their evil & flawed doctrines.

bismillah.gif

Suicide bombing started at your Saudi Arabia funded "Madrasas" in Pakistan where you got your education from son! So you follow your Rabbis  from  Saudi Arabia where you get your monthly check from??  You talk tough from behind a computer, such a brave man, I have seen videos of you head chopping  terrorists getting caught and  cry like women to spare your lives in Iraq and Syria. I wouldn't even call you terrorists Wahabi/Salafis anymore, you are nothing but Satan worshipers, just look at the picture of your god Satan on your profile!

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38 minutes ago, Endtimes said:

bismillah.gif

Suicide bombing started at your Saudi Arabia funded "Madrasas" in Pakistan where you got your education from son! So you follow your Rabbis  from  Saudi Arabia where you get your monthly check from??  You talk tough from behind a computer, such a brave man, I have seen videos of you head chopping  terrorists getting caught and  cry like women to spare your lives in Iraq and Syria. I wouldn't even call you terrorists Wahabi/Salafis anymore, you are nothing but Satan worshipers, just look at the picture of your god Satan on your profile!

 

I got my education from a school. Never went to a madrassah. There are no rabbis in Saudia Arabia but there are many in Iran. Man u people are really cowards, combine prayers, sit at home, practice mutah, abandon jihad, Gather once in a year & scream ya hussain, ya hussain!  Wallah u people bring shame to Islam. Such a disgrace.

5 mins mutah doesnt  bother people like u & u trash talk about other people's faith. Shame on u dude. I wouldnt call u son. That would be degrade ME. 

I have seen people like u practicing evil rituals like tatbir & blood letting & all that funny drama like here, & here

Funny that u people brought transgenders in this business as well like here :clap:

So tell me ya rafidhi what kind of religion is this? Did ur Imams pratice these rituals?

 

Edited by Invoker

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19 minutes ago, Invoker said:

 

I got my education from a school. Never went to a madrassah. There are no rabbis in Saudia Arabia but there are many in Iran. Man u people are really cowards, combine prayers, sit at home, practice mutah, abandon jihad, Gather once in a year & scream ya hussain, ya hussain!  Wallah u people bring shame to Islam. Such a disgrace.

5 mins mutah doesnt  bother people like u & u trash talk about other people's faith. Shame on u dude. I wouldnt call u son. That would be degrade ME. 

I have seen people like u practicing evil rituals like tatbir & blood letting & all that funny drama like here, & here

Funny that u people brought transgenders in this business as well like here :clap:

So tell me ya rafidhi what kind of religion is this? Did ur Imams pratice these rituals?

 

bismillah.gif

That's right, I still say YA HUSSAIN!  YA ALI! That's what burn you satan worshipers because no matter how many of us you satan worshipers kill, our number MASHALLAH still grows! By the way, does the Saudi Embassy still pay you $100.00 a month for you to grow a beard and $100.00 for your wife to wear a veil since they are running OUT OF MONEY?? Like I said before, you show yourself as a tough man from behind a computer, this is how you head choppers act when you get caught! Your END IS VERY NEAR INSHALLAH!

 

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3 hours ago, Zamestaneh said:

I don't reject Hadiths, I just reject the conclusions Shia have reached from them :)

I still haven't been told why the Imamate is a pillar of Islam but it isn't in the Quran.

A man asked Imam Ja`far as-Sadiq [a] about the verse, "Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you" (4:59). The Imam replied, "This was revealed regarding `Ali b. Abi Talib, al-Hasan, and a-Husayn." The man said, "The people say, 'Then why weren't `Ali and his Ahl al-Bayt mentioned by name in the Book of Allah?'" The Imam replied, "Say to them: The command for prayer was revealed to the Messenger of Allah (s), but Allah did not specifically mention [in the Quran] three or four units. It was the Messenger of Allah (s) who detailed that for them. The command to give alms was revealed to him, but He did not mention that it was applied to 1/40 dirhams. It was the Messenger of Allah (s) who detailed for them. The command for Hajj was revealed, but He does not say, 'Circle [the Ka`ba] seven times'. It was the Messenger of Allah (s) detailed that for them. He revealed, 'Obey Allah and obey the Messenger those in authority among you' (4:59), and it was revealed regarding `Ali, al-Hasan, and al-Husayn. The Messenger of Allah (s) said, regarding `Ali, 'Whoever takes me as a Master, then `Ali is his Master.' And he (s) said, 'I leave you with the Book of Allah and my Ahl al-Bayt, so I asked Allah to never separate them from one another until they return to me at the Pond [of Paradise], and He granted my prayer.' And he said, 'Do not lecture them, for they are more knowledgeable than you.' And he said, 'They will not lead you away from the gate of guidance, and they will not make you enter the gate of misguidance.' Had the Messenger of Allah (s) kept quiet, it would not be clear who his Ahl al-Bayt would be, and the dynasties would have claimed it (that title). But Allah revealed it in in a Book, clarifying it to His Prophet (s). 'Surely, Allah wishes to remove uncleanliness from you, Ahl al-Bayt, and purify you with a thorough purification.' (33:33)"  ( علي بن إبراهيم، عن محمد بن عيسى، عن يونس وعلي بن محمد، عن سهل ابن زياد أبي سعيد، عن محمد بن عيسى، عن يونس، عن ابن مسكان، عن أبي بصير قال سألت أبا عبد الله عليه السلام عن قول الله عز وجل: " أطيعوا الله وأطيعوا الرسول وأولي الامر منكم (2) " فقال: نزلت في علي بن أبي طالب والحسن والحسين عليهم السلام: فقلت له: إن الناس يقولون: فما له لم يسم عليا وأهل بيته عليهم السلام في كتاب الله عز و جل؟ قال: فقال: قولوا لهم: إن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله نزلت عليه الصلاة ولم يسم الله لهم ثلاثا ولا أربعا، حتى كان رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله هو الذي فسر ذلك لهم، ونزلت عليه الزكاة ولم يسم لهم من كل أربعين درهما درهم، حتى كان رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله هو الذي فسر ذلك لهم، ونزل الحج فلم يقل لهم: طوفوا اسبوعا حتى كان رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله هو الذي فسر ذلك لهم، ونزلت " أطيعوا الله وأطيعوا الرسول واولي الامر منكم " - ونزلت في علي والحسن والحسين - فقال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله: في علي: من كنت مولاه، فعلي مولاه، وقال صلى الله عليه وآله اوصيكم بكتاب الله وأهل بيتي، فإني سألت الله عز وجل أن لا يفرق بينهما حتى يوردهما علي الحوض، فأعطاني ذلك وقال: لا تعلموهم فهم أعلم منكم، وقال: إنهم لن يخرجوكم من باب هدى، ولن يدخلوكم في باب ضلالة، فلو سكت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله فلم يبين من أهل بيته، لادعاها آل فلان وآل فلان، لكن الله عز وجل أنزله في كتابة تصديقا لنبيه صلى الله عليه وآله " إنما يريد الله ليذهب عنكم الرجس أهل البيت ويطهركم تطهيرا (1) " )

 

 

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13 minutes ago, E.L King said:

A man asked Imam Ja`far as-Sadiq [a] about the verse, "Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you" (4:59). The Imam replied, "This was revealed regarding `Ali b. Abi Talib, al-Hasan, and a-Husayn." The man said, "The people say, 'Then why weren't `Ali and his Ahl al-Bayt mentioned by name in the Book of Allah?'" The Imam replied, "Say to them: The command for prayer was revealed to the Messenger of Allah (s), but Allah did not specifically mention [in the Quran] three or four units. It was the Messenger of Allah (s) who detailed that for them. The command to give alms was revealed to him, but He did not mention that it was applied to 1/40 dirhams. It was the Messenger of Allah (s) who detailed for them. The command for Hajj was revealed, but He does not say, 'Circle [the Ka`ba] seven times'. It was the Messenger of Allah (s) detailed that for them. He revealed, 'Obey Allah and obey the Messenger those in authority among you' (4:59), and it was revealed regarding `Ali, al-Hasan, and al-Husayn. The Messenger of Allah (s) said, regarding `Ali, 'Whoever takes me as a Master, then `Ali is his Master.' And he (s) said, 'I leave you with the Book of Allah and my Ahl al-Bayt, so I asked Allah to never separate them from one another until they return to me at the Pond [of Paradise], and He granted my prayer.' And he said, 'Do not lecture them, for they are more knowledgeable than you.' And he said, 'They will not lead you away from the gate of guidance, and they will not make you enter the gate of misguidance.' Had the Messenger of Allah (s) kept quiet, it would not be clear who his Ahl al-Bayt would be, and the dynasties would have claimed it (that title). But Allah revealed it in in a Book, clarifying it to His Prophet (s). 'Surely, Allah wishes to remove uncleanliness from you, Ahl al-Bayt, and purify you with a thorough purification.' (33:33)"  ( علي بن إبراهيم، عن محمد بن عيسى، عن يونس وعلي بن محمد، عن سهل ابن زياد أبي سعيد، عن محمد بن عيسى، عن يونس، عن ابن مسكان، عن أبي بصير قال سألت أبا عبد الله عليه السلام عن قول الله عز وجل: " أطيعوا الله وأطيعوا الرسول وأولي الامر منكم (2) " فقال: نزلت في علي بن أبي طالب والحسن والحسين عليهم السلام: فقلت له: إن الناس يقولون: فما له لم يسم عليا وأهل بيته عليهم السلام في كتاب الله عز و جل؟ قال: فقال: قولوا لهم: إن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله نزلت عليه الصلاة ولم يسم الله لهم ثلاثا ولا أربعا، حتى كان رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله هو الذي فسر ذلك لهم، ونزلت عليه الزكاة ولم يسم لهم من كل أربعين درهما درهم، حتى كان رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله هو الذي فسر ذلك لهم، ونزل الحج فلم يقل لهم: طوفوا اسبوعا حتى كان رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله هو الذي فسر ذلك لهم، ونزلت " أطيعوا الله وأطيعوا الرسول واولي الامر منكم " - ونزلت في علي والحسن والحسين - فقال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله: في علي: من كنت مولاه، فعلي مولاه، وقال صلى الله عليه وآله اوصيكم بكتاب الله وأهل بيتي، فإني سألت الله عز وجل أن لا يفرق بينهما حتى يوردهما علي الحوض، فأعطاني ذلك وقال: لا تعلموهم فهم أعلم منكم، وقال: إنهم لن يخرجوكم من باب هدى، ولن يدخلوكم في باب ضلالة، فلو سكت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله فلم يبين من أهل بيته، لادعاها آل فلان وآل فلان، لكن الله عز وجل أنزله في كتابة تصديقا لنبيه صلى الله عليه وآله " إنما يريد الله ليذهب عنكم الرجس أهل البيت ويطهركم تطهيرا (1) " )

 

 

bismillah.gif

Stop trying to convince these Satan worshipers, aka Wahabi/salafi head chopping terrorists,  their god is Satan! They wont listen to anything else, that's their nature.

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5 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Ah, sorry, I thought you were a Qur'anist but exactly is your problem with the Jafari madhab, I might be able to help if you are interested but if not, I won't bother you. 

No problem lol

Yes, if you could help me, I would be grateful. Ignoring my tone in response to the other user, I would legit like the understand why the belief in the Imamate/Wilayah is fundamental Aqeedah in Shi'ism, and it is considered a pillar of Islam - like Salaat, Zakat, Sawm, Hajj and Shahadah - but all of these appear explicitly and without ambiguity the Quran apart from Imamate/Wilayah. In this discussiom, it doesn't matter about Ghadeer Khum, as that is a matter of Hadith, whereas my question pertains to the pillars of Islam which are underpinned by the Quran, not Hadith. Just as a preliminary point, believing in the Caliphate system is not a pillar of Islam whereas Imamate is (from the Shia perspective), so one needn't mention that.

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