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Guest silasun

Muslims and the normalisation of homosexuality

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Guest silasun

Bismillah

Homosexuality is a sin. A grave sin. Today we see the gradual contamination of Islamic teachings on this sin to the point where I would fathom that the large majority of Shia Muslims in the West are "tolerant" (because compassion is in seeing your fellow servant of God build hell with his own actions, obviously) on this issue and see no need or have any will to stand up to the gradual assimilation of secular values into the belief system of Western Muslims.

Why is this? Why are we so silent on the issue of homosexuality and so afraid to stand up for our own beliefs? Heck, I personally know of a decent Shia family who "practice all the outward aspects of the faith" but when it comes to preparing their kids for the ideological war that is going on they didn't do a jot and now their kids are kafirs. They would do the easy things of faith like congregational prayers, have hijab, have latmiyat and majalis playing 24/7 but when it came to defending the beliefs of their children, all that happened was they were sent to public schools whilst the parents shut their ears and eyes to the gradual brainwashing that happened.

Why is it that whenever a person speaks out on the issue the holier-than-thou brigade (armed with their abundance of misquoted and de-contextualised hadiths and verses) throw the book at you - "don't judge", "no compulsion in religion" (it's impressive what people will come out with) and "you aren't better than them" - that's right, I cannot say that I am better than anybody who commits sodomy but what I will say is that my faith commands us to acquire Allah's attribute of ar-Rauf (ﺮﺅﻭﻑ) which means that we know that His mercy can reach even some of the worst and most deviated of sinners and that we pray hard for everybody.

At the end of the day, the punishment for homosexual acts in Islam is death. There is no such thing as "gay rights" in Islam - it is an insult that basic rights for women and the civil rights movement are coupled with an evil ideology which is so intrinsically against human nature that God describes it as a crime that "nobody has committed before you" when describing the people of Lot. There are basic human rights, there are rights for non-Muslims living under protection of Islam but there is no part of Islamic cannon where God commanded us to give x,y,z rights to the LGBT (and some more letters as demanded) community.

If we don't start standing up on this issue and become brave about our faith, understand the reasons WHY Islam takes such a stance against this great sin and stand up to the ideological invasion against Western Muslim minds then have no doubt that there will be no such thing as Shia Islam existing in the West within a few decades. There are so few young people who really believe in Islam and the problem is not going to go away by just burying our heads in the sand and thinking that having a few majalis every year is going to satiate the minds of a generation who, from infancy, are being taught that a disgraceful act which God destroyed an entire nation for is acceptable and a lifestyle choice that should be tolerated "since they are a minority just like us". Heck, I even recently saw one of the absolutely most famous English speaking female Shia lectures post about how awful it was that Hillary lost since she "stood up for the rights of the LGBTQWERTY community" - is it really acceptable that such figures are able to spread their bile to an impressionable audience who, despite taking all the precautions in the academic world, will simply absorb the information given by any religious lecturer (regardless of qualification or piety)?

We are all obligated to stand against all sins. If we see a sin and don't try and change the situation then we are culpable for that sin. I will end simply by quoting a few hadiths:

It has been reported that the most Noble Messenger (s) said: “My nation will always be with goodness as long as its people enjoin good and forbid evil and assist one another in piety. If they do not do that, then blessings will be taken away from them and some of them will impose their rule over others, and there will be no helper for them on the earth or in the sky” 

(Mustadruk al-wasail wa Mustanbat al masail vol 12 pg.181). 

2– The Prophet (SAWA) said, ‘The Prophet (SAWA) said, ‘Verily Allah, Mighty and Exalted, despises the weak believer who has no religion [i.e. has no devotion to his religion].’ When asked who a believer with no religion is, he replied, ‘He who does not prohibit wrong.’

[al-Kafi, v. 5, p. 59, no. 15]

7– Imam al-Husayn (AS) said, ‘It is not permissible for a believing eye to watch Allah being disobeyed and close without first changing the situation.’

[Tanbih alKhawatir, v. 2, p. 179]


Sources of translations: 1. 2.

Edited by silasun

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Good thread. I also want to add, if there is anybody who believes sodomy to be halal, some scholars would consider that person a kafir. Especially if the proof of its haram nature has been shown (through the Qur'an and the Hadiths).

So this is a disaster, especially for these "liberal Muslims" - and sadly, even the "Shi'a" ones, in terms of their akhira.

And also, sometimes judging is good. May Allah bless good judging. Judging is not saying you are better than "x", judging is telling a person that they are a sinner and need to repent, which is our duty. 

We need to judge, the most obvious example is you shouldn't pray behind someone who isn't adil in Salat Al-Jama'ah.

Edited by E.L King

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I dont hate on gays the same way i dont hate on those who drink alcohol around me or fornicators or my kuffar neighbours.

Doesnt involve or affect me so i mind my own business. No gay guy ever called me a paki. 

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Living in the west means respecting the Laws of the west, I live in Sydney and every day I see gays, drunks and other types of people that are considered haram in our religion. 

We as Muslims cannot go out in the streets and put down gays or the selling of alcohol or the closing of strip clubs.

We as Muslims can only teach people what is right from what is wrong in a civil manner, the Prophet pbuh did not force people to covert to Islam and allowed Jews and Christians to live near him even thou there food and drink was not halal and some even had alcohol.

We as Muslims need to show the world what a peaceful religion we are and how tolerant we are to people of all walks of life.

Anyone who cannot handle the laws of the west can pack there bags and leave, it is as easy as that bro, because at the end of the day who are you or I or anyone else to judge a fellow human being?

ONLY Allah SWT can Judge us.

Imam Ali a.s  has said : “A person is either your brother in faith, or your equal in humanity”

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We cannot judge or think we are superior to someone, but we can say that Allah(s.w.a), the Creator of the heavens and the earth, hates the homosexual act. This is clear from Quran and hadith, and in fact, this is in the books that Christians call the Bible as well as the book which the Jews call the Torah. 

And for someone to be proud of the fact that they do an act which Allah(s.w.a) hates, well that is something very ugly which we should not accept, whether it is legal or not under Western law. 

I classify people who do the homosexual act into two categories. The first is those who do this act but know that it is wrong, and try to stop and seek forgiveness from Allah(s.w.a). Those people are sinners, and maybe Allah(s.w.a) will forgive them. We all have things in our past or our present that we are not proud of and, as it says in the Quran, 'If Allah(s.w.a) were to hold men fully accountable for their actions, there would not be one single creature left on earth(that Allah(s.w.a) did not destroy because of their wrong acts)."

The other category are those who are proud of the fact that they do this act, and attempt to promote this act and this 'lifestyle' in society or those who call themselves 'muslim' and yet advocate for this lifestyle and this act. Those are the kuffar, and, as per the Holy Quran, we know where they will end up. So for those people. I feel no need to do anything to them, whether to preach to them or punish them.  In fact, my wish is to have no interaction with them at all. Whatever happens to them in this world, whether good or bad, is very trivial and inconsequential compared to the punishment they will get in the next life, unless they repent and attempt to make amends for their actions. 

 

Edited by Abu Hadi

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I haven't seen any Shia who is religious and who is justifying these acts.

As far as hating, yes we should despise the act and the actors of it, for their actions, but also love them as humans and pray for their guidance.

As far as the principal of being against the act because Allah swt despises it, Take a firm line, for example at work, I've this stance, "I do not approve of it because personally and my religion does not approve of it" and "I also do not approve of declaring my or anyone's sexual orientation". Also that, "as a straight man, my sexual preference does not define me, neither should yours gay sexual preference should define you". And, "why are you telling everybody at office party that you are gay?, do you see telling me everybody that I'm straight, or that I'm Muslim, or that I love Biryani, or that I would rather be at a majlis right now".

I teach my kids to have certain of these lines (news bites) as well because our nation's intellect has been dumbed down to this, and its easy to shut people up with a few carefully worded words as opposed to give them a lecture.

As far as dawah, those who don't understand Allah, Rasool, Imam, Quran, and general human decency, won't know what I'm talking about anyway.

Additionally, I personally despise that self loathing, giving food to razeel people against my beautiful faith of Shia Islam by saying that some Shia support it. Its one of the most scandalous statement and we should stop mentioning it. No sane human, let alone any sensible Shia supports it. Those who do are Shia ot Shaytan and have no association with the rest of us.

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1 hour ago, DigitalUmmah said:

I dont hate on gays the same way i dont hate on those who drink alcohol around me or fornicators or my kuffar neighbours.

Doesnt involve or affect me so i mind my own business. No gay guy ever called me a paki. 

 

Nobody asked you to hate them.

 

Generally speaking, we are meant to hate sin, not sinners. Otherwise we can be vulnerable to riya and conceit.

 

The exception to this is when certain individuals are so consumed in sin, open sin, and promotion of sin that they become a shaytan. These people should be hated.

 

Either way, there is a difference between respecting local laws and going wayyyy out of one's way to appease his so called movement. If for example, you are attacked by a skinhead, and you are interviewed by the news, what is the need to express solidarity with the LGBT? (I am not using this example for you personally, rather this is an example from the news). 

 

Furthermore, although zina and alcohol consumption are related to the issue of homosexuality, this does not mean all of these sins are equal. 

 

I may be uninformed but to the best of my knowledge, no nation has been destroyed for the sin of alcohol consumption or zina.

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20 minutes ago, baradar_jackson said:

I may be uninformed but to the best of my knowledge, no nation has been destroyed for the sin of alcohol consumption or zina.

Yes, good point. Just look at the hadiths which talk about how huge this disgusting sin is. Obviously some sins are worse than others, at least in terms of their affect on society, and how they spiritually destroy nations.

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The Qu'ran states that if you catch them doing the deed, you kill the one its done to and the one doing it.   It also says you give them a chance to repent and then forgive them.

IF you live in a state that enacts or claims to enforce Shariah, by all means invoke it.  If you live in a Land that is not founded in religion (US for example), and separates (or tries to) religion from state, then you don't have an obligation to carry out the Qu'ranic law.  Sure you should say God disapproves, but we're not aggressors.  Quran says we don't instigate or be aggressors either, so we don't impose these laws on these people in a land that isn't Islamic.

This is concerning the act of homosexuality.

Keep in mind, it doesn't say we go on a gay killing spree, it just says if we catch them in public doing it.

Edited by wmehar2

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3 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

The Qu'ran states that if you catch them doing the deed, you kill the one its done to and the one doing it.   It also says you give them a chance to repent and then forgive them.

The hadiths state this, but Quran doesn't directly state so.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, LinkZelda said:

The hadiths state this, but Quran doesn't directly state so.

 

 

Ah, not Kill thank you for the correction.

If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone   4:16

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Guest silasun

I am on a break and I wanted to take the opportunity to quote a passage from the book Greater Sins by Ayatollah Dastgheib Shirazi. It is important that although it is a great sin, Allah's mercy is always available to whoever turns back in repentance and that any Muslims attracted to this sin have our full support and compassion:

 

As in the case of adultery, the guilt of sodomy is also proved in one of two ways. The first is that both the participants, or one of them confesses four times before a Judge. If he confesses less than four times the legal penalty cannot be issued. He is only warned and severely rebuked so that he may never repeat it. Some Mujtahids believe that the four confessions should be on four different occasions. It is also required that the accused be major, sane, free and independent. Even if he confesses four times, a minor person can only be reprimanded for the act so that he never does it again. The same applies for the slave and the insane person. Apart from this, if someone is forced into such a crime and is unable to avoid it, there is no penalty for him.

The second method of proving the crime of sodomy is that four just witnesses see it being committed with their own eyes and testify in consonance. If the witnesses are less than four, the testimony is not accepted and the penalty for sodomy is withheld. If less than four people have seen this act, they should not testify. If they do so, they shall themselves become liable for the penalty of “qazaf”. This clause shall be elaborated later. If the guilty repents before the four witnesses testify, the penalty is not imposed and he is not killed. The confession or the testimony should be with regard to the penetration of the anus with the penis, only then the capital punishment is carried out. But if the two men cause ejaculation without penetrating the anus (by pressing the sexual organ between the thighs of another man or by rubbing with the buttocks), then the punishment is a hundred lashes for them.

Why is Sodomy Punishable With Death?
People, who have abandoned shame and decency so as to commit such a revolting and loathsome act of sexual perversion in the presence of other people, are like cancer for the society. If they are left alive, they will spread their shamelessness till it engulfs the entire society. This was the fate of the people of Lut (a.s.). First, Satan led one person to commit this indecency and later he invited others to the same evil. Finally, the crime reached such a gigantic proportion that among the people of Lut (a.s.), it was common to see a man mount upon another and perform sodomy right before the eyes of the onlookers. Women also had sexual relations among themselves. Allah (S.w.T.) cursed these people and destroyed them.

Homosexuality is such a hideous crime that if one does not repent and pray for forgiveness, he becomes like the one who has disbelieved in Allah (S.w.T.). He becomes liable for eternal punishment like the Kafirs. Hence, there is no better way than to kill this person and burn the corpse.

We have already noted in the chapter on adultery that punishment in Islam for acts of indecency are severe but tempered with Allah (S.w.T.)’s Mercy and Compassion. We have also discussed that Islam has formulated strict laws not just to punish the wrong doers but rather to act as a detriment for the negligent. Although capital punishment is prescribed for sodomy, it can only be administered after four just witnesses have testified to the sin being committed in their presence. The extreme degree of leniency in Islamic laws is apparent here. If an individual shows just enough decency as not to commit a filthy act in public and that too for fear of being put to death, Islam does not allow his fellow-beings to punish him. Further, if the sinner repents before the four witnesses have testified, he cannot be put to death. But if the testimony is complete, penalty cannot be reduced and the guilty has to be killed.

As far as confession of the crime is concerned, the same regulations hold as in the case of adultery. The guilty must confess four times. He must confess in clear unambiguous words and must not speak in an elusive way. The Judge must make sure that the person is sane. Also, that he is not joking and confessing to something he has not really done. All these stipulations and concessions are given to the guilty by the Almighty so that the sinner has an opportunity to save himself. If, finally the guilty is found deserving a death sentence, his death will be a lesson for others. The aim of Islam in designing these laws is not merely to punish the offenders but to reform society. Islam aims at creating a sound environment for us where we can get the best of the world and the hereafter.

A person who is guilty, he confesses and undergoes the penalty for it in this world, and thus he will have atoned for his sins and will not be subjected to the torture of the hereafter. Even so, it is better if he refrains from revealing his secrets and submits his case only before the Almighty. He should repent, weep and beg for forgiveness from Allah (S.w.T.). Insha’Allah, Allah (S.w.T.) will forgive him. However, a person should not be complacent after seeking forgiveness. While he is hopeful of Allah (S.w.T.)’s Mercy, he should be in dread of Allah (S.w.T.)’s retribution and must continue to implore Allah (S.w.T.) to forgive him. In this way, he will attain a degree of piety and emerge a far better human being than he ever was.

In the end we quote a tradition from Amir ul-Mu’minīn ‘Ali (a.s.): “If anybody deserves to be stoned to death twice, it is the homosexual.”

All the revealed religions are unanimous that sodomy must be dealt with strictly. Not only is the human race inflicted with spiritual degradation and physical illness and disabilities, it also runs the risk of extinction. The boy who is sexually assaulted, loses his manliness. Sodomy takes the society to the depths of depravity. It is therefore incumbent on men and women to marry and satisfy their sexual urge in a healthy manner, the way Nature has designed. This will ensure the continuity and the well-being of the human race.

Fire Did Not Burn the Repentant!
There is a tradition from Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq (a.s.) in the book al-Kāfi (Section on Penal Code), that:

One day ‘Ali (a.s.) was sitting with his companions when a man approached and said “O Chief of the Believers, I have committed sodomy with a boy, please purify me (impose legal penalty upon me) ‘Ali (a.s.) told him, “Go home, you may have had some misunderstanding.”

The next day the man returned and repeated his confession and requested for penalty. ‘Ali (a.s.) said,

“Go home, you may not be in your sense right now.”

He went away only to return the third time and repeat his confession and again asked for punishment.

At last when he came for the fourth time, ‘Ali (a.s.) said,

“The Holy Prophet (S) has prescribed Three methods of dealing with the situation, you may choose any one of the three deaths - by having the arms and feet tied and thrown from the cliff, being beheaded or being burnt alive.”

He said, “O, ‘Ali (a.s.) which is the worst of these methods?” Imam replied, “Burning alive.” “Then I choose this death.” said the man. By permission of ‘Ali (a.s.), he stood and prayed two rakāt prayer and then said, “O Allah ! A sin was committed by me of which You are well aware. Then I had the fear of this sin, I came to the Successor of your Prophet and requested him to purify me. He gave me a choice of three deaths. I chose the most dreadful death. I pray to you to consider this penalty as the expiation of my sin and do not burn me in the fire of Hell which is ignited by you.”

Then he got up weeping and jumped into the pit into which the fire had been lit. He sat in the fire and the fire engulfed him from all the sides. ‘Ali (a.s.) began to weep, upon seeing this condition and the other companions were also in tears.

‘Ali (a.s.) said, “Arise, the one who has caused the angels of the earth and the sky to weep. Allah has certainly accepted your repentance. Get up but never approach the sin that you have committed.”

It so happened that the man came out of the fire unscathed. The fire could not burn the one who repented.

Edited by silasun

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