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In the Name of God بسم الله

How do Shias view the Old Testament?

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3 minutes ago, Son of Placid said:

nobody questions Abraham, married to Sarah, right?

^ And..?

4 minutes ago, Son of Placid said:

Genesis happens before the laws are laid out

I believe that is beside the point I raised which rather involves Lot and incest.

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I'm not sure whether I'm asking this question in the right forum but I just wanted your understanding of what Shias in general believe about the Old Testament Bible.

@Son of Placid Do you really want to know what a Shia thinks about old testament !? If you ask this from a Sunni he would only point to the signs of prophet of Islam PBUH. But if you as

Divine origin corrupted by man.

  • Veteran Member
1 minute ago, Darth Vader said:

^ And..?

I believe that is beside the point I raised which rather involves Lot and incest.

And... Abraham was her half brother.

Back in those days, endogamy was the rule. Keeping it in the race wasn't always so easy when the race was small, or divided, and some did end up marrying back into their families for the sake of procreation.

The laws on sexual prohibition were laid out later in Leviticus 18, which means it is difficult to judge someone by a law that didn't exist during their time. That would include Abraham, and Lot.

A while back a Hutterite colony in central Alberta put out a call for good mating partners to be interviewed for their women. The men and women never met face to face, and for a price the father would cut all ties to the child. It had come to the point the "race" was suffering from being inbred for too long. Hard to believe it still happens. I guess everything still happens somewhere.

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30 minutes ago, Darth Vader said:

Not in our religious traditions bro. Its a bad practice also from a scientific point of view.

As humans degenerate it's an even worse practice. I'm just going by what  the OT says. Don't know how your traditions read.

 

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On Wednesday, November 30, 2016 at 8:19 AM, Son of Placid said:

The laws on sexual prohibition were laid out later in Leviticus 18, which means it is difficult to judge someone by a law that didn't exist during their time. That would include Abraham, and Lot.

So if laws change and God authorised the laws in Quran,  OT and NT, many of the God given laws are temporary ones. 

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The Qur'aan only confirms the Torah/Pentateuch, which is the five books of Moses, Psalms and the Gospel. Today we have tafasir and ahadith that overshadow the Qur'aan with meaningless interpretations, when in fact we have clear verses that has no ambiguity. A Brother by the name of Joseph Islam, who is a Qur'aan-centric Muslim clearly says something really true. I asked him a question and he gave an amazing answer which I was humbly satisfied with. Yes, we do disagree on some issues, however, the brother has a deep knowledge of the Qur'aan.

Long time ago, when I accepted the Qur'aan as my only source of guidance, I made a deep study of the Qur'aan and how it relates to the previous scriptures, I also read many tafasir, however these additional books didn't make any sense, since they wrote something that actually contradicted the Qur'aan itself. We have to know that the Qur'aan never generalize people into the same category. When the Qur'aan in 9:29 speaks about the "people of the book" it never means all "people of the book" but some of them who had rejected the message (when the truth become clear to them) and violated the the laws of God.  We can see from the Torah how God dealt with many people, nations were destroyed, slaughtered. No one can ask God why he did that, he can do anything since the heaven and the earth are under his control. Hence when Sunni Muslims say that God in the Torah is a cruel God, a violent God then that means that God is somehow questionable for his actions, however he is not. Christians reject the portions of the Torah or simply says that it's abrogated, since it has violence. I don't!

Brother Joseph wrote this as an answer to my question:

Dear brother IjazAhmad,

As-salamu alaykum

The Quran implicitly ratifies the integrity of the previous scriptures. The verses you have shared clearly indicate that guidance is present in the previous scriptures. There is no ambiguity within those verses. Please see posts below [1] & [2] where I have cited the very same verses you have done underscoring these sentiments.

Dear Duster - You are absolutely correct. There is absolutely no warrant for the assertion or implication that the scriptures that the People of the Book were reading during Prophet Muhammad's ministry were wholly corrupt or were 'lost'. In fact, the Quran makes it absolutely clear that it supports the integrity of the Scriptures in multifaceted ways and often refers to it. However, for believers, the Quran remains the final criterion to judge.


005.043
But why do they come to you for decision, when they have (their own) Torah before them?  therein is the (plain) command of God; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not People of Faith.

005.047
"Let the people of the Gospel judge by what God has revealed in it. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God has revealed, they are those who rebel (Arabic: Fasiquna)."

005.068
"Say: "O People of the Book! you have no ground to stand upon unless you firmly stand by (Arabic: Tuqimu) the Torah, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that comes to you from thy Lord, that increases in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But do not grieve over disbelieving people"

We even have complete canonised Bibles that predate the Quran. The Codex Sinaiticus, the earliest complete Christian Bible circa 350 CE (Approximately 250 years before the revelation of the Quran), is considered one of the best texts in Greek of the New Testament along with the manuscript of the Codex Vaticanus. Alexandrian manuscripts are well known to scholars as representing some of the 'best' manuscripts.

Notwithstanding that certain scriptures were given more emphasis in different congregations and certain traditions were also prevalent, it is not too difficult to determine what kind of scriptures in general would be read by the Jews and Christians during the prophetic ministry as a general canon form was already in situ amongst the People of the Book.

I have discussed this further in articles reference [3] and post reference [4] below.

I hope this helps, God willing
Joseph



REFERENCES:

[1] Studying the Bible as Another Source for Guidance

https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/396647927139007?stream_ref=10
[2] The Two Guides  - The Quran and the Bible      
https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/300599863410481
[3] 'Between his Hands' or 'Before It' (Ma Bayna Yadayhi)
http://quransmessage.com/articles/between%20hands%20or%20before%20it%20FM3.htm
[4] Lambasting the Bible
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=146
[5] Beautiful Psalms
https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/349764368445340

AND HE ALSO WROTE: 

Dear all,

Further to the wise comments made by sister Seraphina, I would also like to present some additional elucidatory comments which may assist with this discussion, God willing.

From a Quranic perspective, it does not matter whether or not we have the original tablets consisting of the instructions (maw'izah) and complete explanations (tafsilan'li'kulli shayin) given to Prophet Moses (7:145)  

It also does not matter whether we physically possess the original Scriptures taken down or possibly copied verbatim by the contemporaries of Prophets Moses and Aaron. 

What matters most from a Quranic perspective at the time of revelation is whether or not the instructions / admonition / exhortation (maw'izah)that the Children of Israel were given (5:46; 7:154) as 'guidance' (huda) was accessible / present with the Jews at the time of the prophetic ministry, regardless of form. In other words, was this guidance lost or not at the time of the Quran's revelation?

The answer from a Quran's perspective appears to be not. In other words, they had the guidance and exhortation with them or at least an ability to discern. That is why the Quran instructed the Children of Israel to go back to their Scriptures (5:43; 5:68).

It would be pointless for the Quran to instruct the Children of Israel to go back and judge from their Torah, if they only had parts, sparse or little or nodiscernible instructions from the Torah given to Prophet Moses.

Furthermore as I have shared in my previous post and accompanying articles, the prophet undoubtedly came face to face with what the Children of Israel were reading from the scriptures (note the word 'liqa' from the verb 'laqiya' in verse 32:23 which means ‘encounter’ or ‘face to face meet’).

032:023
"And certainly We gave Moses the Scripture, so do not be in doubt encountering it / coming face to face with it /  meeting it (Arabic: liqaihi)and We made it a guide for the Children of Israel"

Also the Torah is but one book amongst other books that were given to the prophets after Prophet Moses and further inspired writings. The Tanakh is a canon of the Hebrew Bible consisting of many Books of which the Torah (proper) is a part. Notwithstanding the fact that at times aspects of the Scriptures may have been concealed (akhfa - 5:15), The Children of Israel arguably had access to all these Scriptures with them or at least the main guidance contained originally within them ("...and what was given to the prophets from their Lord..." - 2:136).

As I have already shared with citation of evidential support, we know what the canon Scriptures of the Children of Israel would have looked like in the 7th century. 

Therefore, it is thus futile to demand or imply the importance of acquiring ‘original scriptures’, at least from the perspective of the Quran’s revelation which acted as a guard (muhaymin - 5:48) and criterion (furqan).
 

Edited by IjazLinorAhmad
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No, I do not believe that the previous scriptures are ‘entirely abrogated or corrupted’. In the link below, I humbly share:

“The Quran recognises aspects of the truth that was with the Jews and Christians at the time of Prophet Muhammad's (pbuh) revelation in the late 6th and early 7th century Arabia. It confirms aspects of Biblical thought, expects a contingent of its audience to be familiar with its contents and clearly differs from certain theological interpretations that have resulted and have been 'read' into the text.” [1]

[1] ‘Lambasting the Bible’
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=146.msg370#msg370

The Quran also recognises that the followers of previous scriptures had different ‘laws’ (shariah) prescribed to them.

005.048 (part)
"...To each among you have We prescribed a law (Arabic: Shir-atan) and an open way (Arabic: waminhajan). If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He has given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute”

The religious law binding on believers are to be found in the Quran and not the previous scriptures. Although there will be overlaps (such as the prohibition of swine meat which the Quran confirms), there will also be differences. For example, the Children of Israel were prescribed the ‘Sabbath’ to observe, but it was not prescribed for believers in the Quran. The Children of Israel had more stringent food restrictions. These restrictions were not prescribed for believers.  Specific food restrictions imposed on the People of the Book can be noted in verse 6:146.

Fasting in the whole month of Ramadan is prescribed for believers, but it was not prescribed in the same exact manner for those of previous scriptures. 

Therefore, the Quran stands alone as religious authority and ‘law’ for believers. However, this does not mean that the previous laws such as keeping the Sabbath have been dissolved for the Children of Israel. They must keep their law. The Quran does not intend to abolish the law for the People of the Book. Rather, the Quran instructs them to keep their law otherwise it would amount to 'kufr' (disbelief – 5:44). The Quran even questions why some came to the prophet when they had the Torah before them (5:43), underscoring the fact that they were (and are) expected to keep their law as part of the covenant they had (and have) with God.  (http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1264.0)

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9 hours ago, andres said:

So if laws change and God authorised the laws in Quran,  OT and NT, many of the God given laws are temporary ones. 

There are laws, like the Ten Commandments, and laws based on demographics, and man made god laws for whatever trouble humans could get into, although if you live under a law, and you died under the same law, it wasn't very temporary. Many of the laws contained sanitary habits the people wouldn't totally understand at the time. Now we have showers, and washing machines that have those concerns covered. None of which change the original laws.

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On 12/1/2016 at 3:06 PM, IjazLinorAhmad said:

The Qur'aan only confirms the Torah/Pentateuch, which is the five books of Moses, Psalms and the Gospel. Today we have tafasir and ahadith that overshadow the Qur'aan with meaningless interpretations, when in fact we have clear verses that has no ambiguity. A Brother by the name of Joseph Islam, who is a Qur'aan-centric Muslim clearly says something really true. I asked him a question and he gave an amazing answer which I was humbly satisfied with. Yes, we do disagree on some issues, however, the brother has a deep knowledge of the Qur'aan.

Long time ago, when I accepted the Qur'aan as my only source of guidance, I made a deep study of the Qur'aan and how it relates to the previous scriptures, I also read many tafasir, however these additional books didn't make any sense, since they wrote something that actually contradicted the Qur'aan itself. We have to know that the Qur'aan never generalize people into the same category. When the Qur'aan in 9:29 speaks about the "people of the book" it never means all "people of the book" but some of them who had rejected the message (when the truth become clear to them) and violated the the laws of God.  We can see from the Torah how God dealt with many people, nations were destroyed, slaughtered. No one can ask God why he did that, he can do anything since the heaven and the earth are under his control. Hence when Sunni Muslims say that God in the Torah is a cruel God, a violent God then that means that God is somehow questionable for his actions, however he is not. Christians reject the portions of the Torah or simply says that it's abrogated, since it has violence. I don't!

Brother Joseph wrote this as an answer to my question:

Dear brother IjazAhmad,

As-salamu alaykum

The Quran implicitly ratifies the integrity of the previous scriptures. The verses you have shared clearly indicate that guidance is present in the previous scriptures. There is no ambiguity within those verses. Please see posts below [1] & [2] where I have cited the very same verses you have done underscoring these sentiments.

Dear Duster - You are absolutely correct. There is absolutely no warrant for the assertion or implication that the scriptures that the People of the Book were reading during Prophet Muhammad's ministry were wholly corrupt or were 'lost'. In fact, the Quran makes it absolutely clear that it supports the integrity of the Scriptures in multifaceted ways and often refers to it. However, for believers, the Quran remains the final criterion to judge.


005.043
But why do they come to you for decision, when they have (their own) Torah before them?  therein is the (plain) command of God; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not People of Faith.

005.047
"Let the people of the Gospel judge by what God has revealed in it. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God has revealed, they are those who rebel (Arabic: Fasiquna)."

005.068
"Say: "O People of the Book! you have no ground to stand upon unless you firmly stand by (Arabic: Tuqimu) the Torah, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that comes to you from thy Lord, that increases in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But do not grieve over disbelieving people"

We even have complete canonised Bibles that predate the Quran. The Codex Sinaiticus, the earliest complete Christian Bible circa 350 CE (Approximately 250 years before the revelation of the Quran), is considered one of the best texts in Greek of the New Testament along with the manuscript of the Codex Vaticanus. Alexandrian manuscripts are well known to scholars as representing some of the 'best' manuscripts.

Notwithstanding that certain scriptures were given more emphasis in different congregations and certain traditions were also prevalent, it is not too difficult to determine what kind of scriptures in general would be read by the Jews and Christians during the prophetic ministry as a general canon form was already in situ amongst the People of the Book.

I have discussed this further in articles reference [3] and post reference [4] below.

I hope this helps, God willing
Joseph



REFERENCES:

[1] Studying the Bible as Another Source for Guidance

https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/396647927139007?stream_ref=10
[2] The Two Guides  - The Quran and the Bible      
https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/300599863410481
[3] 'Between his Hands' or 'Before It' (Ma Bayna Yadayhi)
http://quransmessage.com/articles/between%20hands%20or%20before%20it%20FM3.htm
[4] Lambasting the Bible
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=146
[5] Beautiful Psalms
https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/349764368445340

AND HE ALSO WROTE: 

Dear all,

Further to the wise comments made by sister Seraphina, I would also like to present some additional elucidatory comments which may assist with this discussion, God willing.

From a Quranic perspective, it does not matter whether or not we have the original tablets consisting of the instructions (maw'izah) and complete explanations (tafsilan'li'kulli shayin) given to Prophet Moses (7:145)  

It also does not matter whether we physically possess the original Scriptures taken down or possibly copied verbatim by the contemporaries of Prophets Moses and Aaron. 

What matters most from a Quranic perspective at the time of revelation is whether or not the instructions / admonition / exhortation (maw'izah)that the Children of Israel were given (5:46; 7:154) as 'guidance' (huda) was accessible / present with the Jews at the time of the prophetic ministry, regardless of form. In other words, was this guidance lost or not at the time of the Quran's revelation?

The answer from a Quran's perspective appears to be not. In other words, they had the guidance and exhortation with them or at least an ability to discern. That is why the Quran instructed the Children of Israel to go back to their Scriptures (5:43; 5:68).

It would be pointless for the Quran to instruct the Children of Israel to go back and judge from their Torah, if they only had parts, sparse or little or nodiscernible instructions from the Torah given to Prophet Moses.

Furthermore as I have shared in my previous post and accompanying articles, the prophet undoubtedly came face to face with what the Children of Israel were reading from the scriptures (note the word 'liqa' from the verb 'laqiya' in verse 32:23 which means ‘encounter’ or ‘face to face meet’).

032:023
"And certainly We gave Moses the Scripture, so do not be in doubt encountering it / coming face to face with it /  meeting it (Arabic: liqaihi)and We made it a guide for the Children of Israel"

Also the Torah is but one book amongst other books that were given to the prophets after Prophet Moses and further inspired writings. The Tanakh is a canon of the Hebrew Bible consisting of many Books of which the Torah (proper) is a part. Notwithstanding the fact that at times aspects of the Scriptures may have been concealed (akhfa - 5:15), The Children of Israel arguably had access to all these Scriptures with them or at least the main guidance contained originally within them ("...and what was given to the prophets from their Lord..." - 2:136).

As I have already shared with citation of evidential support, we know what the canon Scriptures of the Children of Israel would have looked like in the 7th century. 

Therefore, it is thus futile to demand or imply the importance of acquiring ‘original scriptures’, at least from the perspective of the Quran’s revelation which acted as a guard (muhaymin - 5:48) and criterion (furqan).
 

How can we contact Joseph Islam? Is he a revert from Christianity to Islam?

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On 12/1/2016 at 3:47 PM, andres said:

Hi IjazLinorAhmad

So you beling to a Muslim sect that the Torah and Gospels have not been cortupted? 

If I got that right, you believe God has sent different rules to different poulations. What about Hinduism? 

:salam:

I don't belong to a sect, since the God says that it's prohibited to be in a sect, I believe what God revealed, the only revelation to Muhammad (s.a.w.), a criterion for the mu'minun. The Qur'aan do recognize some corruption, however that doesn't tantamount to wholesale corruption of the Torah and Gospel. Guidance can still be derived from it and God is still telling the Christians and Jews to judge by their own books. The Qur'aan only rebuked some things that got corrupted or interpretations/doctrines read into Torah and Gospel that doesn't exist in these two books, e.g. verse 5:17 &c.

You said: If I got that right, you believe God has sent different rules to different poulations. What about Hinduism? 

 

Quote

 The Quran agrees with much of Biblical thought. However, it also recognises some alteration by scribes et al (2:79), that some of the guidance was concealed / suppressed and where the Quran deems it appropriate to pass over / forgive other areas.

005:015
"O People of the Book, surely there has come to you our Messenger, making clear to you much of what you used to conceal (Arabic: tukh'funa) of the scripture and overlooking / forgiving much (Arabic: wa-ya'fu an kathiran). Surely has come to you from God a light and a clear book"
 
The Arabic word 'tukh'funa' comes from the root KHA-FA-YA which carries the meaning of what is unapparent / has become imperceptible / has become dim to the sight / or suppressed, or obscured to the mind. It also carries the meaning of something which has become 'concealed'.
 
Therefore, the Quran within context of its Arabic usage clearly recognised that certain aspects of the previous scriptures had become gradually concealed and deemed it fit to expound on some of them. It was also not the intention of the Quran to deal with each and every narrative of the Bible hence the term 'wa-yafu an kathiran' (forgive, pardon, pass over, relinquish or remit a whole or part or indeed pardon much).

 

Quote

The Quran also recognises that the followers of previous scriptures had different ‘laws’ (shariah) prescribed to them.

005.048 (part)
"...To each among you have We prescribed a law (Arabic: Shir-atan) and an open way (Arabic: waminhajan). If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He has given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute”

The religious law binding on believers are to be found in the Quran and not the previous scriptures. Although there will be overlaps (such as the prohibition of swine meat which the Quran confirms), there will also be differences. For example, the Children of Israel were prescribed the ‘Sabbath’ to observe, but it was not prescribed for believers in the Quran. The Children of Israel had more stringent food restrictions. These restrictions were not prescribed for believers.  Specific food restrictions imposed on the People of the Book can be noted in verse 6:146.

Fasting in the whole month of Ramadan is prescribed for believers, but it was not prescribed in the same exact manner for those of previous scriptures. 

Therefore, the Quran stands alone as religious authority and ‘law’ for believers. However, this does not mean that the previous laws such as keeping the Sabbath have been dissolved for the Children of Israel. They must keep their law. The Quran does not intend to abolish the law for the People of the Book. Rather, the Quran instructs them to keep their law otherwise it would amount to 'kufr' (disbelief – 5:44). The Quran even questions why some came to the prophet when they had the Torah before them (5:43), underscoring the fact that they were (and are) expected to keep their law as part of the covenant they had (and have) with God.

About hinduism, I'm not sure. The Qur'aan do say that God sent Prophets to different nations. 

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4 hours ago, IjazLinorAhmad said:

:salam:

I don't belong to a sect, since the God says that it's prohibited to be in a sect, I believe what God revealed, the only revelation to Muhammad (s.a.w.), a criterion for the mu'minun. The Qur'aan do recognize some corruption, however that doesn't tantamount to wholesale corruption of the Torah and Gospel. Guidance can still be derived from it and God is still telling the Christians and Jews to judge by their own books. The Qur'aan only rebuked some things that got corrupted or interpretations/doctrines read into Torah and Gospel that doesn't exist in these two books, e.g. verse 5:17 &c.

You said: If I got that right, you believe God has sent different rules to different poulations. What about Hinduism? 

 

 

About hinduism, I'm not sure. The Qur'aan do say that God sent Prophets to different nations. 

Disagreeing on interpretation is very normal, but have the Torah and Gospels been corrupted, the Quran seems unaware of this.

Where does the Quran say that God sent Prophets to different nations? 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, JasmineAila said:

Guys, do you believe that Qur'an which we hold today not been corrupted too?

 

I find little reason to believe that the first edition of the Quran, as it was when compiled after the death of Muhammed, is not the same as the one we have got today. 

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On 12/1/2016 at 4:54 PM, andres said:

Hi SoP

True, but not entirely so. Christians do not stone people in public to death for having worked during the sabbath. Actually modern Jews do not either, thus refusing to follow the command in the Torah. 

Most Christians are Gentiles and not held to the OT laws. Once the Israelites settled down and quit killing all the tribes around them, Gentiles were referred to as the foreigners outside the gates. They were allowed to trade with them, even to sell them the not-kosher parts of their cattle. I guess God was okay with Gentiles eating rump roasts. 

 

14 hours ago, JasmineAila said:

Guys, do you believe that Qur'an which we hold today not been corrupted too?

 

I guess it depends on your definition of corruption. There were a few versions of the Quran recited to the transmitters, and they are not all word for word, but no ideals, nor contexts are changed, so there is no actual corruption between the originals. Considering the Arabic language has not changed, then neither has the Quran since compiled. The corruption I see is in the modern English versions that [add opinion] to the text.

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3 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

 

I guess it depends on your definition of corruption. There were a few versions of the Quran recited to the transmitters, and they are not all word for word, but no ideals, nor contexts are changed, so there is no actual corruption between the originals. Considering the Arabic language has not changed, then neither has the Quran since compiled. The corruption I see is in the modern English versions that [add opinion] to the text.

But languages do change and meaning of words slide. Updating the vocabular is not corruption. It is an improvement. If  this is not done, we will end up with unreadable texts. There are verses in OT that contain words which meaning no longer is known. Modern translatiors admit this and leaves a note, older ones were to proud and just guessed a meaning.

(Is difficulties in understanding the old arabic the reason for the different translations within brackets?)

Edited by andres
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Quran 2:89 - And when there came to them a Book from Allah confirming that which was with them - although before they used to pray for victory against those who disbelieved - but [then] when there came to them that which they recognized, they disbelieved in it; so the curse of Allah will be upon the disbelievers.

Quran 2:91 - And when it is said to them, "Believe in what Allah has revealed," they say, "We believe [only] in what was revealed to us." And they disbelieve in what came after it, WHILE IT IS THE TRUTH CONFIRMING THAT WHICH IS WITH THEM. Say, "Then why did you kill the prophets of Allah before, if you are [indeed] believers?"

Quran 5:43 - But how is it that they come to you for judgement while they have the Torah, in which is the judgement of Allah ? Then they turn away, [even] after that; but those are not [in fact] believers.

Quran 5:44 - Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to Allah ] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah , and they were witnesses thereto. So do not fear the people but fear Me, and do not exchange My verses for a small price. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the disbelievers.

Idk where muslims get the idea that the Torah OR the New Testament has been corrupted when there are no evidences to support that. The Quran only promotes that we have false doctrines but not the scriptures itself. It even tells the people of the book to judge by OUR OWN books rather than the Quran itself.

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4 hours ago, The_Bible said:

Quran 2:89 - And when there came to them a Book from Allah confirming that which was with them - although before they used to pray for victory against those who disbelieved - but [then] when there came to them that which they recognized, they disbelieved in it; so the curse of Allah will be upon the disbelievers.

Quran 2:91 - And when it is said to them, "Believe in what Allah has revealed," they say, "We believe [only] in what was revealed to us." And they disbelieve in what came after it, WHILE IT IS THE TRUTH CONFIRMING THAT WHICH IS WITH THEM. Say, "Then why did you kill the prophets of Allah before, if you are [indeed] believers?"

Quran 5:43 - But how is it that they come to you for judgement while they have the Torah, in which is the judgement of Allah ? Then they turn away, [even] after that; but those are not [in fact] believers.

Quran 5:44 - Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to Allah ] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah , and they were witnesses thereto. So do not fear the people but fear Me, and do not exchange My verses for a small price. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the disbelievers.

Idk where muslims get the idea that the Torah OR the New Testament has been corrupted when there are no evidences to support that. The Quran only promotes that we have false doctrines but not the scriptures itself. It even tells the people of the book to judge by OUR OWN books rather than the Quran itself.

Your avatar is a violation of the Second Commandment.

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5 hours ago, ChristianVisitor said:

Your avatar is a violation of the Second Commandment.

Im not making a image to idolize, i am presentin a image to represent my belief, and the sacrfice Jesus has done for all humanity. 

Galatians 2:21 - I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

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On Monday, December 05, 2016 at 10:15 AM, The_Bible said:

Idk where muslims get the idea that the Torah OR the New Testament has been corrupted when there are no evidences to support that. 

Easy. The Bible and Quran sometimes conteadict each other. If you believe one of them to be the perfect word from God, the other cannot be. So if also from God, it must have been corrupted. 

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2 hours ago, andres said:

Easy. The Bible and Quran sometimes conteadict each other. If you believe one of them to be the perfect word from God, the other cannot be. So if also from God, it must have been corrupted. 

Yes It is true, but the muslims do not consider the Bible as any piece of authoritative information due to their ASSUMPTIONS on it being corrupt. When we were a religion before them, and have prophesied these things to come. It is mostly through their lack of understanding on how God can be three, but holy spirit has been talked about since old testament, and Jesus Christ being God in the flesh.

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23 hours ago, The_Bible said:

Yes It is true, but the muslims do not consider the Bible as any piece of authoritative information due to their ASSUMPTIONS on it being corrupt. 

Does not change the fact that the Quran speaks about the Bible as such.

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1 hour ago, andres said:

We do not agree on all doctrines. Muslims do not on theirs either. 

Doesn't make them right does it? We don't need to agree on all doctrines to be saved, unlike them. All we need is to confess Christ as savior and his resurrection. While they are based on works.

Romans (10:9-10) - That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

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12 hours ago, The_Bible said:

Doesn't make them right does it? We don't need to agree on all doctrines to be saved, unlike them. All we need is to confess Christ as savior and his resurrection. While they are based on works.

Romans (10:9-10) - That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

There are somewhat different interpretations among Christians on how to interpret Paul and yours is rather common. 

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On 12/7/2016 at 5:22 PM, The_Bible said:

Doesn't make them right does it? We don't need to agree on all doctrines to be saved, unlike them. All we need is to confess Christ as savior and his resurrection. While they are based on works.

Romans (10:9-10) - That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

Doesn't make them wrong either. 

One of the reasons that Muslims don't read the NT is because they've heard a Christian tell them what it says first. Their inability to understand the doctrine of trinity is well founded. They've been told the trinity is there so why would they read? To read with a preconceived notion you can't agree with from the start, it may as well be Harry Potter. 

This is the stalemate.

It's just as much blasphemy to reject Jesus as God, as it is to believe He is God. The higher you build this wall...well, that's how high the wall will be. 

The trouble is, I have Muslim brothers who will be in Heaven. However the religions have separated and condemned the other, and the contradictions we consider an impasse, there remains the fact. I have Muslim brothers who will be in Heaven. Two people who would back that up..Billy Graham, and Robert Schueller. 

 

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17 minutes ago, Son of Placid said:

Doesn't make them wrong either. 

One of the reasons that Muslims don't read the NT is because they've heard a Christian tell them what it says first. Their inability to understand the doctrine of trinity is well founded. They've been told the trinity is there so why would they read? To read with a preconceived notion you can't agree with from the start, it may as well be Harry Potter. 

This is the stalemate.

It's just as much blasphemy to reject Jesus as God, as it is to believe He is God. The higher you build this wall...well, that's how high the wall will be. 

The trouble is, I have Muslim brothers who will be in Heaven. However the religions have separated and condemned the other, and the contradictions we consider an impasse, there remains the fact. I have Muslim brothers who will be in Heaven. Two people who would back that up..Billy Graham, and Robert Schueller. 

 

Romans (10:13-14) - For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Muslims do NOT enter heaven by any means no matter what any high preacher has to say. Men are fallible while the word of God isn't. Where is the evidence that muslims enter heaven in the Bible? I challenge you to show me by scriptures. That was also a poor excuse for muslims to not read the NT. A Christian that professes a doctrine that opposes Islam would not allow them to read the word? We do not represent our belief in occult, but rather in light, in truth, and to the world. 

1 John 4:6 - We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. 

 

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10 minutes ago, The_Bible said:

Muslims do NOT enter heaven by any means no matter what any high preacher has to say. Men are fallible while the word of God isn't. Where is the evidence that muslims enter heaven in the Bible? I challenge you to show me by scriptures. That was also a poor excuse for muslims to not read the NT. A Christian that professes a doctrine that opposes Islam would not allow them to read the word? We do not represent our belief in occult, but rather in light, in truth, and to the world. 

1 John 4:6 - We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. 

 

You are assuming the NT would jump ahead and mention Muslims if they were to be saved? You have better high preachers? How many poor excuses do you have not to read the Quran? 

Catholics didn't allow their parish to read the bible much before the early 70's Not saying you would not allow them, would say you would discourage them. Besides, the NT isn't the best place to go looking for a trinity anyway.

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54 minutes ago, Son of Placid said:

You are assuming the NT would jump ahead and mention Muslims if they were to be saved? You have better high preachers? How many poor excuses do you have not to read the Quran? 

Catholics didn't allow their parish to read the bible much before the early 70's Not saying you would not allow them, would say you would discourage them. Besides, the NT isn't the best place to go looking for a trinity anyway.

Acts 4:12 - Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

I am saying the NT would tell us a SPECIFIC way for everybody, as in, all humanity to be saved, and it has. Preachers are good to listen to and all that but men at the end of the day are fallible the word of God isn't. I don't need help to know what the Bible says, now the intepretatin is something else, but WHAT IT SAYS should be something fairly lucid. Where else would one search for the trinity?

Nehemiah 8:8 - So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.        

The problem about Islam and the Quran is that THEY claim Christians and Jews with BOTH are scriptures are corrupted. We do not come and claim the religion prior to us were wrong. We are the fulfillment. That means the burden of proof is on muslims to prove how and when was Christianity corrupted, and I have NEVER gotten a answer to that. Even if they did have a answer it would also have to make logical sense. 

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54 minutes ago, Son of Placid said:

You are assuming the NT would jump ahead and mention Muslims if they were to be saved? You have better high preachers? How many poor excuses do you have not to read the Quran? 

Catholics didn't allow their parish to read the bible much before the early 70's Not saying you would not allow them, would say you would discourage them. Besides, the NT isn't the best place to go looking for a trinity anyway.

Acts 4:12 - Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

I am saying the NT would tell us a SPECIFIC way for everybody, as in, all humanity to be saved, and it has. Preachers are good to listen to and all that but men at the end of the day are fallible the word of God isn't. I don't need help to know what the Bible says, now the intepretatin is something else, but WHAT IT SAYS should be something fairly lucid. Where else would one search for the trinity?

Nehemiah 8:8 - So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.        

The problem about Islam and the Quran is that THEY claim Christians and Jews with BOTH are scriptures are corrupted. We do not come and claim the religion prior to us were wrong. We are the fulfillment. That means the burden of proof is on muslims to prove how and when was Christianity corrupted, and I have NEVER gotten a answer to that. Even if they did have a answer it would also have to make logical sense. 

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