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In the Name of God بسم الله

Cosmology in Islam

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Peace !

 

Does anyone have knowledge or tafaseer about about this verse? There are other verses i would like to ask about too - maybe later if people are interested. 

This following verse talks about how Allah created earth, and then (thuma ثُمَّ in Arabic) he set up the 7 heavens. 

  

 

2:29 هُوَ الَّذِي خَلَقَ لَكُم مَّا فِي الأَرْضِ جَمِيعاً ثُمَّ اسْتَوَى إِلَى السَّمَاء فَسَوَّاهُنَّ سَبْعَ سَمَاوَاتٍ وَهُوَ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ

 

It is He who created for you all of that which is on the earth. Then He directed Himself to the heaven, and made them seven heavens, and He is Knowing of all things. 2:29

 

many thanks,

Peace to you

 

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Interesting enough, there are hadiths I found concerning this while cruising Al-Kafi Volume 8:

 

H 14564 – Ibn Mahboub, from Abu Ja’far Al-Howl, from Sallaam Bin Al-Mustaneer, who has narrated the following: 

 

Abu Ja’far said: ‘Allah Created the Paradise before He Created the Fire, and Created the obedience before He Created the disobedience, and Created the Mercy before the Anger, and Created the good before the evil, and Created the earth before the sky ( al 'ard qabl al same' ), and Created the life before the death, and Created the sun before the moon, and Created the ‘al Nour’ (the Divine Light) before the darkness’. 

 

 

H 14515 – From him, from Ahmad Bin Muhammad, from Al-Husayn Bin Saeed, from Muhammad Bin Dawood from Muhammad Bin Atiyya who said: 

 

" ‘A man from the scholars of the people of Syria (Al-Shaam) came up to Abu Ja’far .. He Existed when there was nothing other than Him. And He Created the thing from which are all things, and it is the water from which He Created the things. So He Lineage everything to the water and did not Make a lineage for the water to which it can be ascribed. And He Created the wind from the water, then Made the wind to overcome the water. So the wind sent down into the body of the water until foam swirled from the water in accordance with what He so Desired it to swirl. So He Created from that foam, pure white land with no crack in it, nor any holes, neither ascending nor descending, and no tree. Then He Folded it, so He Placed it on top of the water. Then Allah Created the fire from the water, so the fire bust out of the body of the water until smoke arose from the water in accordance with Allah so Desired it to rise. So He Created from that smoke, clear and pure sky in which there were no cracks nor any holes, and that is His Statement: “[79:27] Are you the harder to create or the heaven? He made it. [79:28] He raised high its height, then put it into a right good state. [79:29] And He made dark its night and brought out its light”. He said: ‘And there was no sun, and no moon, and no stars and no clouds. Then He Folded it and Placed it upon the earth, then Established two creations. Then He Raised the sky before the earth, so that is His Statement, Mighty is His Mention: “[79:30] And the earth, He expanded it after that”. He Said that He Spread it out’. ..."

 

Discussion:

Both these hadiths go in line with the Quranic verse that shows us that Allah created the earth before organizing organizing the sky ( samawat / heaven(s) ) -  

If this is the case, then it would be impossible for the earth to supposedly rotate around a heavenly object such as the sun.

 

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Would be a good idea to ask a renowned astronomer.

Well in this case it would have to be an astronomer who is well-versed in the Islamic texts relating to the cosmos and creation evolution.

here another interesting hadith comparing the Earth to a ring in a desert, also from al-Kafi Volume 8 ..

Quote

 

H 14591 – Muhammad Bin Yahya, from Ahmad Bin Muhammad, from Abdul Rahmaan Bin Abu Najraan, from Safwaan, from Halaf Bin Hammaad, from Al-Husayn Bin Zayd Al-Hashimy, who has narrated the following: 

 

Abu Abdullah said: ‘Zaynab the perfume seller came to the wives and the daughters of the Prophet, and she used to sell the perfume to them. The Prophet came over whilst she was among them. So hes said: ‘You bring aroma to our house’. She said, ‘Your house is better in aroma due to your fragrance, O Rasool Allah!’ He said: ‘When you sell, do it well and do not cheat, for it would be more pious and protective of the wealth’. She said, ‘O Rasool Allah, I did not come to sell anything, but rather I came to ask you about the Magnificence of Allah Mighty and Majestic’. So he said: ‘Majestic is the Majesty of Allah. I shall tell you about some of that’. Then he said: ‘This Earth with what is upon it, compared to that which is below it, is like a ring thrown in the desert, and these two with what is within them and what is upon them, compared to what is beneath them is like a ring thrown in the desert, and the third one, until it ends with the seventh’. And he recited this Verse: “[65:12] Allah is He Who created seven Firmaments and of the Earth a similar number”. The seven earths (firmaments) along with all that is contained within it and what is on it are upon the back of the rooster, like a ring thrown in the desert. And the rooster has two wings to it – a wing in the east and a wing in the west, and its legs are on the fringes of it, and the seven (firmaments) and the rooster and all that is contained with these and whatever is on it, are upon a rock, like a ring thrown in the desert. And the rock along with all that it contains, and all that is on it, are upon the back of the whale like a ring thrown in the desert. And the seven (firmaments), and the rooster, and the rock, and the whale along with that they contain and what is on them are upon the dark ocean like a ring thrown in the desert. And the seven (firmaments), 

and the rooster, and the rock, and the whale, and the dark ocean are upon the outgoing air like a ring thrown in the desert. And the seven (firmaments), and the rooster, and the rock, and the whale, and the dark ocean, and the air are upon the soil (Al-Sarayy) like a ring thrown in the desert’. Then he recited this Verse: “[20:6] To Him belongs what is in the heavens and on Earth, and all between them, and all beneath the soil”. Then the information about the soil (Al-Sarayy) is terminated. And the seven (firmaments), and the rooster, and the rock, and the whale, and the dark ocean, and the air, and the soil (Al-Sarayy) along with all that these contain and whatever is on it, compared to the first sky is like a ring thrown in the desert. And all of this, and the sky of the world along with what is on it and what is contained within it, compared to that which is above it, is like a ring thrown in the desert. And these two skies and whatever these two contain, and what is on them, compared to what is above these two, are like a ring thrown in the desert. And these three, along with what is contained within them and whatever is on them, compared to the fourth, are like a ring thrown in the desert, (and it is like this) until it ends with the seventh. And these and all that is contained within them and whatever is on them, compared to the ocean hidden from the people of the Earth, is like a ring thrown in the desert. And these seven, and the hidden ocean, compared to the cold mountain are like a ring thrown in the desert’. And he recited this Verse: “[24:43] And He sends down of the clouds that are (like) mountains wherein is hail”. And these seven, and the hidden ocean, and the cold mountain, compared to the air which the hearts are confused about, are like a ring thrown in the desert. And these seven, and the hidden ocean, and the cold mountain, and the air, compared to veils of the light are like a ring thrown in the desert. 

And these seven, and the hidden ocean, and the cold mountain, and the air, and the veils of the light, compared to the Chair (Al-Kursy) are like a ring thrown in the desert’. And he recited this Verse: “[2:255] His Throne (Chair) includes the heavens and the Earth, and He is never weary of preserving them. He is the Sublime, the Tremendous”. And these seven, and the hidden ocean, and the cold mountain, and the air, and veils of the light, and the Chair, compared to the Throne are like a ring thrown in the desert’. And he recite this Verse: “[20:5] The 

Beneficent One, Who is established on the Throne”. (And in the report of Al- Hassan) – ‘The veils before the air about which the hearts are confused’.

 

To study cosmology from an Islamic point of view, we would need a different set of paradigms and points of views. 

What does this rooster stand for? 

Quote

H 14854 – Al-Husayn Bin Muhammad, from Moalla Bin Muhammad, from Al-Washa, from Muhammad Bin Al-Fazeyl, who has narrated the following: 

Abu Ja’far having said that: ‘Allah has a Rooster. Its feet are in the seventh Earth, and its neck is fixed underneath the Throne, and its wings are in the atmosphere. When it is the middle of the night, or two thirds from the end of the night. Its flaps its wings and shouts: ‘Glorious, Holy is our Lord, Allah, the True Proven King. So there is no God other than Him, the Lord of the Angels and the Spirit’. Thus the Rooster flaps its wing and crows’. 

What does the whale stand for in the previous hadith? What about the rock, the ocean etc.? 

The words used in Qur'an to describe the "spreading" of Earth, we have three distinct words used. And all three are more resonating with spreading, or leveling, rather than kneading into a ball.

Then we have in the Qur'an expressions of our Earth as:

"And We have placed on the Earth firm mountains, lest it should shake with them", and in the bible:

"1 Chronicles 16:30: “He has fixed the Earth firm, immovable.”

"Psalm 93:1: “Thou hast fixed the Earth immovable and firm ...”

Anyway, looking at things from an Islamic point of view redefines a lot of things, and also gives clues to reality. For me anyway, wa alhamdulilah

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The Qur'an says otherwise:

أأنتم أشد خلقا أم السماء بناها رفع سمكها فسواها وأغطش ليلها وأخرج ضحاها والأرض بعد ذلك دحاها

That is very interesting thanks!

Why would you say does it appear to contradict the verse above? That basically a ceiling was created before Earth? Although in your verses the words bana' and rafe3 are used, while the verse I posted uses the word sawaha into 7 heavens, which are kind of different. What is your expert opinion?

 

for some reason whenever I copy paste the Arabic text of the hadiths, they come out looking weird here. Maybe you can have better luck transferring them to here in their original language?

 

But the clearest one above says "khalaq al 'ard qabl al sama'"

And it is in line with the other ones that talk about the evolution being basically

1- water

2- wind

3- foam

4- land

5- fire

6- smoke

7- sky

8- ashes to land (again somehow?)

 

I am sure you can find the hadiths online in the numbering above.

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وَالْأَرْضَ فَرَشْنَاهَا فَنِعْمَ الْمَاهِدُونَ

وَالْأَرْضَ مَدَدْنَاهَا وَأَلْقَيْنَا فِيهَا رَوَاسِيَ وَأَنبَتْنَا فِيهَا مِن كُلِّ شَيْءٍ مَّوْزُونٍ

وَإِلَى الْأَرْضِ كَيْفَ سُطِحَتْ

Your Arabic seems to be very good, so tell me please if any of these expressions resonate with another other than flatness. From my limited Arabic knowledge and access to Arabs that I have discussed this with, it seems to us it is rather like "spread" or "level", etc. What do you think? 

Thank you very much

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2 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

 

Well in this case it would have to be an astronomer who is well-versed in the Islamic texts relating to the cosmos and creation evolution.

 

here another interesting hadith comparing the earth to a ring in a desert, also from al-Kafi Volume 8 ..

 

To study cosmology from an Islamic point of view, we would need a different set of paradigms and points of views. 

 

What does this rooster stand for? 

 

 

What does the whale stand for in the previous hadith? What about the rock, the ocean etc.? 

 

The words used in Quran to describe the "spreading" of earth, we have three distinct words used. And all three are more resonating with spreading, or leveling, rather than kneading into a ball.

 

Then we have in the Quran expressions of our earth as:

"And We have placed on the earth firm mountains, lest it should shake with them", and in the bible:

 

"1 Chronicles 16:30: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable.”

"Psalm 93:1: “Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ...”

 

Anyway, looking at things from an Islamic point of view redefines a lot of things, and also gives clues to reality. For me anyway, wa alhamdulilah

 

 

I believe some of these animals refer to constellations or galaxies, this was discussed before, I will try and find the references.

 

 

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What the... are you serious you believe the earth is flat?:confused:

Look at the live stream of the earth from the ISS, you can see for yourself. 

https://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/iss_ustream.html

I didn't know flat earthers still existed in 2017.

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All life began in the sea.وجعلنا من الماء كل شيئ حي

The land was not yet habitable until it was made stable and flat. فرش٬ مدد٬ سطح
Until the land was not prepared, there was no habitat for mammals. والارض بعد ذلك ضحاها
The scriptures seem to focus on the blessings of our habitat, not describing how the Earth appears from outer space.

Hence, the conclusion that the Earth is flat entirely or that the universe revolves around the Earth seems a premature conclusion, as well as it contradicts everything we know from Modern Astronomy.
 

Furthermore, a khabr wahid cannot overrule what we can determine by Science as a fact.

 

Life is created from "water" and not "sea", الماء, which is described as being the first thing ever, upon which God's Throne was upon.

 

You didn't really give me the answer I was looking for, which is a confirmation of all translations on Earth that the words used by Allah to describe the shaping of Earth are rather flat in nature . I think I understand what you are saying, which is that even if the flattening or spreading of the Earth appears to be describing Earth as flat, it does not have to be actually flat on a bigger scale. There are further description of the Earth and sky being folded, which again shows rather a 2 dimensional Earth.

 

Anyway, there is a whole field of alternative science that explains everything in terms of flat Earth that is in tune with bible and Qur'an, as well as ahadeeth. Personally I was convinced by the scientific evidence before approaching the quranic one, but that's just me. Thanks anyway dear brother, and if you can think of further explanations please don't hesitate. All the best! Peace

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Explained already:

When Allah talks about how he created the Earth with words that show rather spreading and leveling, rather than kneading into a sphere, it is cosmological. Just like it is is cosmological when the sun and moon are described as swimming, while Earth is described as not moving with pegs of mountains. To me it is this way, and if you have any evidence please don't hesitate. All the best! Peace to you in Australia I guess .. 

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2 hours ago, iraqi_shia said:

I believe some of these animals refer to constellations or galaxies, this was discussed before, I will try and find the references.

 

 

thank you i love it when people say they will try to get references. I am sure we are not the first ones who ask these questions.

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3 hours ago, Hassan Y said:

What the... are you serious you believe the earth is flat?:confused:

Look at the live stream of the earth from the ISS, you can see for yourself. 

https://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/iss_ustream.html

I didn't know flat earthers still existed in 2017.

yup i wouldn't believe it either if i told myself a year ago that i'd believe that! it sounds crazy i know, and i stumbled by mere chance upon those two videos on an unrelated news thread somewhere. And i decided to give it a chance and ended up looking at the entire video. Half way into it I was convinced, much like I was convinced of shia Islam after reading a hadith or two from the perspective of ahlulbayt. It's as if a light went on, and even though i can never believe anything 100%, i definitely more inclined to think that the old traditional way of seeing the earth holds truth.

 

Here are the videos that convinced me, and ironically one is of the ISS :)

the first video is really long, but i didn't get bored 

 

 

 

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You seem to be relying more on the narrations than the Qur'an.

The Qur'an neither affirms nor describes the shape of the Earth, it simply describes the land.
If the narration is true, then:

If this is the case, then we should be able to find the Earth resting on a rooster via:

Please enlighten us of this science.

It is possible to fake and deceive people on a large scale. With computer animations they can even make you think that you are looking at much more complicated things than a supposed global landscape. 

I am not really relying more on the hadiths than the Qur'an, which is the reason why I started with a Qur'an verse, and you will find more arguments there that you can look at.

Please forgive me for being too fast and hasty, I want to discuss as much as possible hadith-hadith, verse-verse .. instead of cramming in too many arguments at once and getting lost. So from now on I will try my best to do that. From a scientific point of view there is plenty of material showing that the Earth is flat as described in the Qur'an, that it is spread and leveled, rather than kneaded into a sphere. I posted above two videos that convinced me personally, but there are endless videos and articles about this. There are even forums dedicated by people of all faiths discussing this. The only way I can quickly copy the Arabic hadiths is via screenshots, and that will take too long. So maybe in the near future I will try to find it online somewhere and copy paste it for you. but that one hadith is clear about Allah creating the Earth before the sky. What exactly the rooster, whale, desert and rings mean, I don't know. But the way it starts is interesting: That the Earth is like a ring in a desert. 

Please take your time and sorry for the cluttering and being too fast for smooth conversation. my bad! 

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Thank you, trying to follow what you're saying and verifying each point, so yes, step by step please.
Now you want us to watch and verify a 2:40 mins of videos ... takes time...

brother take your time, I don't mind waiting for months. Sorry again for cluttering, I have this bad habit and need to work on it. One argument at a time would be best. Hopefully we won't die in the super-near future, so we hopefully have enough time to cover each point and give it its due respect. (even if it takes days/weeks/months - with lots of space and break in between if we wish .. so no stress)

Many thanks! 

Peace!

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@313 Seeker

why are you accepting what they say in the video?

you do not know the author of the videos, as far as we know, they are not experts or reliable. What they claim goes against not just recognised experts, but rational thought.

You seem quite vulnerable, and you need to work on your reasoning and logic.

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21 hours ago, iraqi_shia said:

@313 Seeker

why are you accepting what they say in the video?

you do not know the author of the videos, as far as we know, they are not experts or reliable. What they claim goes against not just recognised experts, but rational thought.

 

You seem quite vulnerable, and you need to work on your reasoning and logic.

 

Did you watch the video? I just watched it again and the guy keeps saying that we should do our own research and verify everything he says. They are organized into 10 "clues" that are his own proofs. There are millions of other videos about this (or at least thousands), forums, and on this thread I am actually focusing on the Islamic perspective, aka Quran and Ahadeeth. 

 

You seem quite pre-judgmental to me, and feel free to join the discussion, especially from an Islamic point of view. You need to work on your open mindedness, listening skills and rational thinking. Just like you give me advice I am giving you advice as well.

 

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What they claim goes against not just recognised experts, but rational thought.

did you even look at what they claim? 

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Brother we did not decide what starting point we will have. What do you think if we start with the first aya that says Allah made Earth and then "sawahuna" the 7 heavens ... vs. أأنتم أشد خلقا أم السماء بناها رفع سمكها فسواها وأغطش ليلها وأخرج ضحاها والأرض بعد ذلك دحاها

?

How would you explain them in context to each other?

Or feel free to discuss any other point first if you wish. Take your time dear brother, no stress, no hurry and let's enjoy this.  Many thanks wasalaam.

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@313 Seeker السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Please give me a few days before we continue. Insha Allah, will definitely continue, I'm going through the premises.

walaikum salaam warahmatulah wabarakatuh

take you time dear brother,

Yours' faithfully

Peace

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On 2/17/2017 at 4:05 PM, 313 Seeker said:

Did you watch the video? I just watched it again and the guy keeps saying that we should do our own research and verify everything he says. They are organized into 10 "clues" that are his own proofs. There are millions of other videos about this (or at least thousands), forums, and on this thread I am actually focusing on the Islamic perspective, aka Qur'an and Ahadeeth. 

You seem quite pre-judgmental to me, and feel free to join the discussion, especially from an Islamic point of view. You need to work on your open mindedness, listening skills and rational thinking. Just like you give me advice I am giving you advice as well.

did you even look at what they claim? 

So lets be clear, you think the Earth is flat like a piece of paper?

May I ask how old you are?

I think the Earth is a giant banana shape,a guy said it to me and he had a diagram and everything.

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salam alaikum dear brother,

I told you before, and I will say this again in public: You are a gem! and it is my pleasure + honor to speak to you and have discussions on such a high level. God must love me!

Shiachat is lucky to have you and I hope that everybody here uses you and benefits from your talents masha Allah!

My comment would be that from the study of creationism from the ahadeeth I read, there seems to be Earth in two states, as you mentioned.

1 - when water combined with wind for form foam (before sky / samawat )

2 - after fire came out of the water to make smoke (sky) and then settled ashes ( Earth in state # 2 ). Scientifically this is quite logically imaginable. There are people who made water combustion engines, showing that fire can be made from water. And anyway, everything came from water supposedly.

My question is: what does 'dahw' mean to you? 

One other point I did not think about is the ramification of people living far away from the qibla, and the wrong direction they must be facing if the Earth is truly flat.

What would be interesting, would be to see if any of the Islamic scholars who later claimed Earth to be spherical or egg shaped, can show their evidence or reasoning behind their conclusions. 

many thanks and I won't be able to compensate you the way you deserve, so the best I can say here is may Allah compensate you million-fold ASAP,

wasalaam 

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مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى عَنْ سَلَمَةَ بْنِ الْخَطَّابِ وَ عِدَّةٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِنَا عَنْ سَهْلِ بْنِ زِيَادٍ جَمِيعاً عَنْ عَلِيِّ بْنِ حَسَّانَ عَنْ
عَلِيِّ بْنِ عَطِيَّةَ الزَّيَّاتِ عَنْ مُعَلَّى بْنِ خُنَيْسٍ قَالَ سَأَلْتُ أَبَا عَبْدِ اللَّهِ (عليه السلام) عَنِ النُّجُومِ أَ حَقٌّ هِيَ فَقَالَ نَعَمْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَزَّ
وَ جَلَّ بَعَثَ الْمُشْتَرِيَ إِلَى الْأَرْضِ فِي صُورَةِ رَجُلٍ فَأَخَذَ رَجُلًا مِنَ الْعَجَمِ فَعَلَّمَهُ النُّجُومَ حَتَّى ظَنَّ أَنَّهُ قَدْ بَلَغَ ثُمَّ قَالَ لَهُ انْظُرْ
أَيْنَ الْمُشْتَرِي فَقَالَ مَا أَرَاهُ فِي الْفَلَكِ وَ مَا أَدْرِي أَيْنَ هُوَ


H 14955 – Muhammad Bin Yahya, from Salmat Bin Al-Khataab and a number of our companions, from Sahl Bin Ziyad together, from Ali Bin Hassaan, from Ali Bin Atiyya Al-Zayyaat, from Moala Bin  Khuneys who said: 
I asked Abu Abdullah about the stars (astrology), is it true?’ So heasws said; ‘Yes.  Allah sent Jupiter to the earth in the image of a man. So he took a man from the  non-Arabs and taught him the stars (Astrology) until he thought that he understood it. 
Then he said to him, ‘Look around. Where is the Jupiter?’ So he said, ‘I cannot see it in the sky and I do not know where it is’.

 
قَالَ فَنَحَّاهُ وَ أَخَذَ بِيَدِ رَجُلٍ مِنَ الْهِنْدِ فَعَلَّمَهُ حَتَّى ظَنَّ أَنَّهُ قَدْ بَلَغَ وَ قَالَ انْظُرْ إِلَى الْمُشْتَرِي أَيْنَ هُوَ فَقَالَ إِنَّ حِسَابِي لَيَدُلُّ عَلَى
أَنَّكَ أَنْتَ الْمُشْتَرِي قَالَ وَ شَهَقَ شَهْقَةً فَمَاتَ وَ وَرِثَ عِلْمَهُ أَهْلُهُ فَالْعِلْمُ هُنَاكَ.

He said; ‘He left him and grabbed the hand of a man from India. So he taught him until he thought he had understood it, and said, ‘Look at Jupiter, where is it?’ So he said, ‘My calculation evidences to me that you are the Jupiter’. He said: ‘He gasped a cry and died, and his people inherited his knowledge, so the knowledge is over there (in India)’.

 
14956 -عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنِ ابْنِ أَبِي عُمَيْرٍ عَنْ جَمِيلِ بْنِ صَالِحٍ عَمَّنْ أَخْبَرَهُ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ (عليه السلام) 
قَالَ سُئِلَ عَنِ النُّجُومِ قَالَ مَا يَعْلَمُهَا إِلَّا أَهْلُ بَيْتٍ مِنَ الْعَرَبِ وَ أَهْلُ بَيْتٍ مِنَ الْهِنْدِ.


H 14956 – Ali Bin Ibrahim, from his father, from Ibn Abu Umeyr, from Jameel Bin Salih, from the one who informed him, the following: 
I asked about the stars (Astrology) from Abu Abdullah. The Imam replied: ‘No  one knows it except for a People of a household from the Arabs, and a people of a  household from India’. 

 
H 14503 – Muhammad, from Ahmad, from Ibn Mahboub, from Jameel Bin Saleh, from Abaan Bin Taghlud has narrated the following:  Abu Abdullah said, ‘I asked him about the earth, which thing does it rest upon? He said: ‘It is upon the whale’. I said, ‘So the whale, which thing does it rest upon?’ He said: ‘Upon the water’. I said, ‘So the water, upon which thing does is rest upon?’ He said: ‘Upon a rock’. I said, ‘So upon which thing does the rock rest upon?’ He said: ‘Upon the horns of a bull’ I said, ‘So upon which thing does the bull rest upon?’ He said: ‘Upon the mist’. I said, ‘So upon which thing does the mist rest upon?’ He said: ‘This is how far knowledge of scholars is permitted (to reveal) and beyond this is straying’.

H 14504 – Ali Bin Ibrahim, from his father, from Ibn Abu Umeyr, from Jameel Bin Darraaj, from 
Zarara has narrated the following: 
One of them (Fifth or Sixth Imam) having said: ‘Allah Mighty and Majestic Created the earth, then Sent to it the salty water for forty mornings, and the sweet water for forty mornings until they met and got mixed. Then He took by His Hand a handful and Stirred it intensely together, then Separated it into two  separations. So from each one of these two came out particles like the particles of powder. So He took a (group of) particles to the Paradise, and a (group of) particles to the Fire’.

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I wonder how people following the modern model of cosmology can explain this verse.

---...... - - - - - 

 

AL Hijr (15) : 16, 17, 18

وَلَقَدْ زَيَّنَّا ٱلسَّمَآءَ ٱلدُّنْيَا بِمَصَـٰبِيحَ وَجَعَلْنَـٰهَا رُجُومًا لِّلشَّيَـٰطِينِ ۖ وَأَعْتَدْنَا لَهُمْ عَذَابَ ٱلسَّعِيرِ

And we have, adorned the lowest heaven with Lamps, and We have made such (Lamps) (عليه السلام) missiles to drive away the Evil Ones, and have prepared for them the Penalty of the Blazing Fire.— Yusuf Ali

.... - - - -....... 

So there is a lower - or 'dunyawy' heaven - where the "lamps" are having purpose of beautifying as well as attacking devils. 

How can the light bodies in our sky be used as missiles against devils? 

... - - - - -...... 

 

وَلَقَدْ جَعَلْنَا فِى ٱلسَّمَآءِ بُرُوجًا وَزَيَّنَّـٰهَا لِلنَّـٰظِرِينَ

It is We Who have set out the zodiacal signs in the heavens, and made them fair-seeming to (all) beholders;

— Yusuf Ali

 

وَحَفِظْنَـٰهَا مِن كُلِّ شَيْطَـٰنٍ رَّجِيمٍ

And (moreover) We have guarded them from every cursed devil:

— Yusuf Ali

 

إِلَّا مَنِ ٱسْتَرَقَ ٱلسَّمْعَ فَأَتْبَعَهُۥ شِهَابٌ مُّبِينٌ

But any that gains a hearing by stealth, is pursued by a flaming fire, bright (to see).

— Yusuf Ali

... - - - -..... 

 

What hearing? Where exactly? What devils? How and what exactly pursues them? 

 

... - - - - -..... 

 

AL Saffat (37) 6, 7, 8, 9, 10

 

إِنَّا زَيَّنَّا ٱلسَّمَآءَ ٱلدُّنْيَا بِزِينَةٍ ٱلْكَوَاكِبِ

We have indeed decked the lower heaven with beauty (in) the stars (word used is kawkab, which is usually seen as planet nowadays) ,-

— Yusuf Ali

 

وَحِفْظًا مِّن كُلِّ شَيْطَـٰنٍ مَّارِدٍ

And as protection against every rebellious devil

— Saheeh International

 

لَّا يَسَّمَّعُونَ إِلَى ٱلْمَلَإِ ٱلْأَعْلَىٰ وَيُقْذَفُونَ مِن كُلِّ جَانِبٍ

(So) they should not strain their ears in the direction of the Exalted Assembly but be cast away from every side,

— Yusuf Ali

 

دُحُورًا ۖ وَلَهُمْ عَذَابٌ وَاصِبٌ

Repelled; and for them is a constant punishment,

— Saheeh International

 

إِلَّا مَنْ خَطِفَ ٱلْخَطْفَةَ فَأَتْبَعَهُۥ شِهَابٌ ثَاقِبٌ

Except such as snatch away something by stealth, and they are pursued by a flaming fire, of piercing brightness.

— Yusuf Ali

..... - - - - -....... 

 

What are the lower heavens? 

What is kawkab vs nejm? 

Why is there only talk about lights in lower heaven? 

How are the plants/stars protection against devils? 

What is the exalted or highest assembly/leadership? 

How, where and when do devils go listen to it?

What is discussed there in general? 

I heard it is about the future events. 

How can they snatch information, and what is the reality and mechanism of the shehab (commonly referred to as shooting star), in being directed and targeting devils in UFO's or what? 

What punishment do they receive and how is it constant? 

 

..... - - - - -...... 

Jinn (72): 8, 9, 10

وَأَنَّا لَمَسْنَا ٱلسَّمَآءَ فَوَجَدْنَـٰهَا مُلِئَتْ حَرَسًا شَدِيدًا وَشُهُبًا

And we have sought the heaven but found it filled with powerful guards and burning flames.

— Saheeh International

 

وَأَنَّا كُنَّا نَقْعُدُ مِنْهَا مَقَـٰعِدَ لِلسَّمْعِ ۖ فَمَن يَسْتَمِعِ ٱلْـَٔانَ يَجِدْ لَهُۥ شِهَابًا رَّصَدًا

We used, indeed, to sit there in stations, to a hearing; but any who listen now will find a flaming fire watching him in ambush.

— Yusuf Ali

 

وَأَنَّا لَا نَدْرِىٓ أَشَرٌّ أُرِيدَ بِمَن فِى ٱلْأَرْضِ أَمْ أَرَادَ بِهِمْ رَبُّهُمْ رَشَدًا

And we understand not whether ill is intended to those on earth, or whether their Lord (really) intends to guide them to right conduct.

— Yusuf Ali

 

....... - - - - - - -....... 

 

Again who are those guards? 

There is a place/seat where one can listen to important things. Where is that place exactly? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Lately I found a verse in the Quran that I believe shows us the creation process in its earliest stages (beginning of time and space) , which are describing the pre-elemental steps, which are the 8 most basic building blocks of the universe. 

Those building blocks resonate with things we know, but they are probably unimaginable in their pure most basic state, as it is probably too basic to imagine. 

So I found that this verse confirms the Taoist model, which is used to visualize and improve our lives on this earth. To be a master of the universe, one better understand the true most basic elements. 

This isn't the periodic table we know from science class, but the periodic table of Islam, and the likes of Taoism. 

So from the little limited basic knowledge I've been able to accumulate from hadiths that are available on this thread (Kafi Volume 8), those 8 elements in Islam are :

 

Water

Wind

Foam

Fire

Smoke

Ash

Heaven 

Earth

 

Those correspond to the following daoist ones

 

Water

Wind

Marsh

Fire

Thunder 

Mountain

Heaven 

Earth. 

 

 

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People think I'm weird because I believe flat earthers have a point. If that is weird, then what do you say about these things? (AL Kafi Volume 8)

Again proof the earth was created before the sky (also according to Quran). How is that possible in today's model? 

Quote

H 14564 – Ibn Mahboub, from Abu Ja’far Al-Howl, from Sallaam Bin Al-Mustaneer, who has narrated the following: 

Abu Ja’far said: ‘Allah Created the Paradise before He Created the Fire, and Created the obedience before He Created the disobedience, and Created the Mercy before the Anger, and Created the good before the evil, and Created the earth 
before the sky, and Created the life before the death, and Created the sun before the 
moon, and Created he Divine Light.

 

Sunday and Monday two earths earths (?) were created, then Wednesday was the sky produced:

Quote

H 14565 – From him, from Abdullah Bin Sinan who said: 

I heard Abu Abdullah saying that: ‘Allah Created the good on the day of Sunday, and He did not Create the evil before the good. And during the day of Sunday and the Monday Created the firmament (Arabic word used is 'ardayn, which is two earths) and created their sustenance during the day of Tuesday, and Created the Skies on the day of Wednesday and thursday, and created their sustenance on the day of Friday, and that is the Statement of the Mighty and Majestic; “[32:4] Allah it is Who created the heavens and the earth, and that which is between them, in six Days”.

 

Here another cosmological creation squence, that has basically a power struggle at its core. 

Started with an ocean feeling invincible, then earth was created so it is on top of it, then mountains dominated the earth and stopped it from moving around, then God created Iron to subdue the mountains ego, so fire was created to melt the iron that felt invincible. Then water was created to extinguish the proud fire. Then wind was created to humble the water through currents and waves, then to humble the wind, mankind was created who could hide from it in buildings. Finally death was created to humble mankind, and when death got arrogant it was told that it will be slaughtered eventually and never returned. 

But the nice thing is the associating the same way of thinking with mercy vs anger, and so on. 

Quote

H 14577 – And by this chain: 
He said:

 ‘The Prophets said: ‘Allah Mighty and Majestic did not Create a creature except that He Commanded another one to overcome it, and that Allah Blessed and High, when He created the deeper ocean, it prided itself and moved its waves and said, ‘Which thing can overcome me?’ So He created the earth, so it (ocean) surfaced upon its back, and so it became submissive.
Then he said; ‘The earth prided itself and said, ‘Which thing can overcome me?’ 
So He created the mountains and established them as pegs upon its back, so stop it from swaying due to what is upon her. So the earth became submissive and stabilised. Then the mountain prided itself over the earth, so it became bigger and taller, and said, ‘Which thing can overcome me?’ So He created the iron which cut it, and so the mountain calmed down and became submissive. Then the iron prided itself over the mountain and said, ‘Which thing can overcome me?’ So He created the Fire which melted it, and so the iron became submissive.
Then the fire exhaled and gasped (blazed), and prided itself and said, ‘Which thing can overcome me?’ So He created the water which extinguished it, and so it became submissive. Then the water prided itself and overflowed and said, ‘Which thing can overcome me?’ So He Created the wind which moved its waves and raised what was in its bottom, and restrained it from its direction, and so the water became submissive. Then the wind prided itself, raged and loosened its tails and said, ‘Which thing can overcome me?’ So He Created the human being who built shelters and tricked the wind by veiling himself from it and other, so the wind became humble. 
Then the human being rebelled and said, ‘Who is stronger than me?’ So He created the death for him, which defeated him, and so he became submissive. Then the death prided itself so Allah Mighty and Majestic Said: “Do not be proud, for I will Slaughter you in between the two sects – the people of the Paradise and the people of the Fire, then I will not revive you ever, whether you return (repent) or you fear”. 
And he also said: ‘And the forbearance overcomes the anger, and the mercy  overcomes the harshness, and the charity overcomes the sins’. Then Abu Abdullah said: ‘There is more like this where one thing overcomes the other’.

 

Quote

H 14596 – Ali Bin Ibrahim, and a number of our companions, from Sahl Bin ziyad altogether, from Muhammad Bin Isa, from Yunus, from Abu Al-Sabbah Al-Kanany, from Al-Asbagh Bin Nabata who said: 

Amir-ul-Momineen said: ‘For the sun there are three hundred constellations. Each of the constellations from these is like an island from the islands of Arabia. So it descends upon a constellation from these each day. So when it disappears, it ends up to the limits beneath the Throne. It does not stop prostrating until the next day. Then it returns to the place of its rising, and with it are two Angels who hail with it and turn its face towards the people of the sky reversing it from the people of the earth. And had it faced the people of the earth, it would have burnt down the earth and the ones upon it due to the intensity of its heat. And the meaning of its prostration is what the Glorious and the High has Said: “[22:18] Do you not see that to Allah bow down in worship all things that are in the heavens and on earth, the sun, the moon, the stars; the hills, the trees, the animals; and a great number among mankind? 

 

Here apparently earth quakes are caused by a smaller marine animal entering the breathing apparatus of the bigger one, that our earth is on :

Quote

H 14813 – From him, from Salih, from one of his companions, from Abdul Samad Bin Basher, who has reported the following: 

Abu Abdullah has said that: ‘The whale which is carrying the earth secretly said to itself that it is carrying the earth by its own strength. So Allah the High sent to it a fish smaller than a palm’s length, and larger than a finger. So it entered in its gills and shocked it. It remained like that for forty days. Then Allah raised it and was merciful to it, and took it out. So whenever Allah Intends the earth to be in a quake, He Sends that (small) fish (in Arabic Hout) to that (big) fish. So when it sees it, it becomes restless, so the earth gets engulfed by the earthquake’.

 

The backbone of the creations is in the shape of a rooster. The 7th earth all the way up to the throne of God:

Quote

 
14854 -الْحُسَيْنُ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنْ مُعَلَّى بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنِ الْوَشَّاءِ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ الْفُضَيْلِ عَنْ أَبِي جَعْفَرٍ (عليه السلام) قَالَ إِنَّ لِلَّهِ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ دِيكاً رِجْلَاهُ فِي الْأَرْضِ السَّابِعَةِ وَ عُنُقُهُ مُثْبَتَةٌ تَحْتَ الْعَرْشِ وَ جَنَاحَاهُ فِي الْهَوَى إِذَا آَانَ فِي نِصْفِ اللَّيْلِ أَوِ الثُّلُثِ الثَّانِي مِنْ آخِرِ اللَّيْلِ ضَرَبَ بِجَنَاحَيْهِ وَ صَاحَ سُبُّوحٌ قُدُّوسٌ رَبُّنَا اللَّهُ الْمَلِكُ الْحَقُّ الْمُبِينُ فَلَا إِلَهَ غَيْرُهُ رَبُّ الْمَلَائِكَةِ وَ الرُّوحِ فَتَضْرِبُ الدِّيَكَةُ بِأَجْنِحَتِهَا وَ تَصِيح

H 14854 – Al-Husayn Bin Muhammad, from Moalla Bin Muhammad, from Al-Washa, from Muhammad Bin Al-Fazeyl, who has narrated the following: 

Abu Ja’far having said that: ‘Allah has a Rooster. Its feet are in the seventh earth, and its neck is fixed underneath the Throne, and its wings are in the atmosphere. When it is the middle of the night, or two thirds from the end of the night it flaps its wings and shouts: ‘Glorious, Holy is our Lord, Allah, the True Proven King. So there is no god other than Him, the Lord of the Angels and the Spirit’. Thus the Rooster flaps its wing and crows’.

 

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