Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله

Does Allah have a throne?

Rate this topic


Recommended Posts

Arsh is the true nature of the universe, it's where everything exists in it's truest form and nature to God's sight, or at least, it's as close as it get's to God's vision. But what does Quran say about that, it says "everything we have encompassed in manifest leader", and other places "in a manifest book". 

That reality is we are words of God written in a living book, we live in God's book, and that book is the manifest leader and guide. 

The Angles play a role in how our deeds ascend to the Arsh, and are brought down, remember when Mohammad when on Meraaj, he went beyond where Angels can do, what can physically exist and take what an Angel cannot? It's the reality of Mohammad. 

This is why it's essential to recognize the Imam is the heart of humanity, and there is no choosing, but between Satan and Imam. 

Of course, Satan never presents himself in full image, what he wants us to be cafeteria pickers of the light and at the same through our desire pick from the darkness and uncleanness.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, Jimmy Boy said:

Does Allah have a throne like in Sunniism?Or is the concept of Arsh understood methaphorically in Shiaism,if it exists at all?

:bismillah:

Our Sunni brothers and sisters differ in terms of their beliefs on this issue.

However, there is a dominant belief by those in the west, and in saudi-arabia and some gulf states, that Allah azwj has a throne, but it isn't like a grand throne a queen sits on. However, they believe he is literally above his throne, and so, he has direction. They also believe he has two feet, which are below the throne, and above the qursi [foot-stool], but the two feet are not like our own two feet.

You can read this here: https://islamqa.info/en/166843

We, the shia', say, Allah azwj does not have two feet, hands, fingers, a shin. Allah is one, in his absolute unity and oneness, and can not be divided into constituent components, nor does he require 'hands' - even if you affirm they are not like ours.

We, the ones accused sometimes of having no concept of Tawheed, believe Allah existed before a 'where', and so, you can not describe him by means of direction, or claim  he is 'above' or ' below ' anything.

All praise be to Allah, who has made the path of Muhammed wa ale Muhammed asws so clear on the issue of Tawheed. We only need to press the issue of Tawheed again and again and in my eyes, very few can handle such a discussion. The truth and piercing light of our madhab is so clear, i have myself noticed many going out of their way to avoid a debate on this issue.

 

Check out some of these threads:

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, Jimmy Boy said:

Does Allah have a throne like in Sunniism?Or is the concept of Arsh understood methaphorically in Shiaism,if it exists at all?

The Arsh/Kursi[according to reliable shia ahadith]

http://www.imamiyya.com/hadith/usul-kafi/book-3/chapter-20

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Forum Administrators

في كتاب التوحيد حدثنا علي بن أحمد بن محمد بن عمران الدقاق رحمه الله قال: حدثنا محمد بن أبي عبد الله الكوفي عن محمد بن إسماعيل البرمكي: قال: حدثنا جذعان بن نصر أبو نصر الكندي قال: حدثنا سهل بن زياد الادمي عن الحسن بن محبوب عن عبد الله بن كثير عن داود الرقي قال: سألت أبا عبد الله عليه السلام عن قول الله عز وجل: " وكان عرشه على الماء " فقال لي: ما يقولون؟قلت: يقولون إن العرش كان على الماء والرب فوقه، فقال: كذبوا، من زعم هذا فقد صير الله محمولا ووصفه بصفة المخلوقين ولزمه ان الشئ الذي يحمله أقوى منه، قلت: بين لي جعلت فداك، فقال: ان الله عز وجل حمل علمه ودينه الماء قبل أن يكون سماء أو ارض أو انس أو جن أو شمس أو قمر فلما أراد ان يخلق الخلق نثرهم بين يديه فقال لهم: من ربكم؟فكان أول من نطق رسول الله وأمير المؤمنين والأئمة صلوات الله عليهم، فقالوا: أنت ربنا فحملهم العلم والدين، ثم قال للملائكة: هؤلاء حملة علمي وديني وأمنائي في خلقي وهم المسؤولون، ثم قيل لبني آدم: أقروا لله بالربوبية ولهؤلاء النفر بالطاعة فقالوا: نعم ربنا أقررنا فقال للملائكة: اشهدوا، فقالت الملائكة: " شهدنا على أن لا يقولوا انا كنا عن هذا غافلين * أو يقولوا انما أشرك آبائنا من قبل وكنا ذرية من بعدهم أفتهلكنا بما فعل المبطلون " ان ولايتنا مؤكدة عليهم في الميثاق.

A man asked Imam Ja`far as-Sadiq [a] about the verse, "It is He who created the heavens and the earth in six days - and His Throne had been upon water." (11:7)

The Imam asked the man, "What do the people say?"

The man said, "They say that the Throne is upon water and the Lord is on top of it."

The Imam said, "They have lied. Whoever alleges this has made Allah a carried thing, and described Him in the way that the creation is described, saying that He needs something stronger than Him to carry Him."

The man said, "Clarify it for me - may I be your sacrifice."

So he [a] said, "Allah had set His knowledge and His religion upon water before there was a heaven or Earth, or human or jinn, or sun or moon.

When He decided to create the creation, He brought them forth and said to them, 'Who is your Lord?' So the first to speak was the Messenger of Allah, the Commander of the Faithful, and the Imams. They said, 'You are our Lord.' So He set the knowledge and the religion upon them, then He said to the angels, 'These are My trustees and the holders of My knowledge and My religion in My creation. They are the ones responsible.'

Then, He said to the children of Adam, 'Acknowledge the Lordship of Allah and the obedience of this group.' So they said, 'Yes, we acknowledge it.'" (Kitab al-Tawhid)

 

أحمد بن إدريس، عن محمد بن عبد الجبار، عن صفوان بن يحيى قال: سألني أبو قرة المحدث أن ادخله على أبي الحسن الرضا عليه السلام فأستأذنته فأذن لي، فدخل فسأله عن الحلال والحرام ثم قال له: أفتقر أن الله محمول؟ فقال أبو الحسن عليه السلام: كل محمول مفعول به مضاف إلى غيره محتاج، والمحمول اسم نقص في اللفظ والحامل فاعل وهو في اللفظ مدحة وكذلك قول القائل: فوق وتحت وأعلا وأسفل وقد قال الله: " وله الأسماء الحسنى فادعوه بها " ولم يقل في كتبه، إنه المحمول بل قال: إنه الحامل في البر والبحر والممسك السماوات والارض أن تزولا والمحمول ما سوى الله ولم يسمع أحد آمن بالله وعظمته قط قال في دعائه: يا محمول، قال أبو قرة، فإنه قال: " ويحمل عرش ربك فوقهم يومئذ ثمانية " وقال: " الذين يحملون العرش " فقال أبو الحسن عليه السلام: العرشى ليس هو الله والعرش اسم علم وقدرة، وعرش فيه كل شئ ثم أضاف الحمل إلى غيره: خلق من خلقه، لانه استعبد خلقه بحمل عرشه وهم حملة علمه وخلقا يسبحون حول عرشه وهم يعملون بعلمه وملائكة يكتبون أعمال عباده؟ واستعبد أهل الارض بالطواف حول بيته والله على العرش استوى كما قال والعرش ومن يحمله ومن حول العرش والله الحامل لهم، الحافظ لهم، الممسك القائم على كل نفس وفوق كل شئ وعلى كل شئ ولا يقال: محمول ولا أسفل، قولا مفردا لا يوصل بشئ فيفسد اللفظ والمعنى، قال أبو قرة: فتكذب بالرواية التي جاءت أن الله إذا غضب إنما يعرف غضبه أن الملائكة الذين يحملون العرش يجدون ثقله على كواهلهم، فيخرون سجدا، فإذا ذهب الغضب خف ورجعوا إلى مواقفهم؟ فقال أبو الحسن عليه السلام: أخبرني عن الله تبارك وتعالى منذ لعن إبليس إلى يومك هذا هو غضبان عليه، فمتى رضي؟ وهو في صفتك لم يزل غضبان عليه وعلى أوليائه وعلى أتباعه كيف تجترئ أن تصف ربك بالتغيير من حال إلى حال وأنه يجري عليه ما يجري على المخلوقين؟! سبحانه وتعالى، لم يزل مع الزائلين ولم يتغير مع المتغيرين ولم يتبدل مع المتبدلين، ومن دونه يده وتدبيره، وكلهم إليه محتاج وهو غني عمن سواه.


Ahmad b. Idris from Muhammad b. `Abd al-Jabbar from Safwan b. Yahya.


He said: Abu Qurra, the narrator of ahadith asked me to admit him into the presence of Abu’l Hasan ar-Rida عليه السلام, so I asked for his permission in that and he accepted it from me. So he entered upon him and asked him about the permissible and the forbidden, until he said to him: Do you affirm that Allah is carried? So Abu’l Hasan عليه السلام said: Everything that is carried is an object [of the carrier], additional to what is besides it, and dependent. And ‘carried’ is the name for a defect in an expression, while the carrier is a subject and is [meant to indicate] praise in an expression. And that is the expression of one who says, “Highest and lowest; uppermost and lowermost”. And Allah says, “And for Him are the best names, so call Him by them” (7:180), and He does not say in His Book that He is carried. Rather, He said that He is the carrier in the sea and on the land, and the preserver of the heavens and the Earth from falter. A carried thing is [that which is] other than Allah. The supplication “O carried one!” is never heard from one who believes in Allah and His greatness.Abu Qurra said: But He says, “… and eight will uphold the throne of their Lord that day, above them” (69:17), and He says, “those who uphold the throne…” (40:7). So Abu’l Hasan عليه السلام said: The throne (`arsh) is not Allah, rather it is a name for knowledge and power. In the throne is everything. He ascribed ‘carrying’ to other than Himself – [it is ascribed] to creatures from His creation, because He has made His creatures worship Him by carrying His throne; and they are carrying [a portion of] His knowledge. And there are creatures who glorify [Him] around the throne and act by His knowledge. And the angels write the deeds of His servants. He has made the people of the Earth circumambulate His house (i.e. the Ka`ba). And Allah is established upon His throne, just as He has said. Allah carries the throne, those who uphold it, and those who surround the throne. He preserves them, and He is the sustainer and guardian over every person, and He is above every thing, and He is upon every thing. He cannot be called a carrier or a foundation; this saying is solitary and does not reach a thing, so it corrupts its pronunciation and its meaning. Abu Qurra said: So do you belie the narration that has come [that says], “When Allah becomes angry, His anger becomes known to the angels that hold the throne. They feel the weight of His anger on their shoulders, so they fall down in prostration. And when the anger goes, it (i.e. the throne) lightens and they return to their places”? So Abu’l Hasan عليه السلام said: Inform me about Allah تبارك وتعالى: from when He cursed Iblees till your time, He has been angry with him. So when was He pleased [during that time]? And in your dogma, His anger with him and with his supporters and with his followers is persistent. How dare you describe your Lord with changes from state to state, and [say] that He experiences what the creatures experience?! May He be glorified and exalted. He does not perish with those who perish, nor does He change with those who change, nor does He replace with those who are replaced and those who are under His hand and His management. All of them require Him, and He is independent from others. (al-Kafi, Volume 1 hadith 332)

(sahih) (صحيح)
 

 

محمد بن اسماعيل، عن الفضل بن شاذان، عن حماد بن عيسى، عن ربعي ابن عبد الله، عن الفضيل بن يسار قال: سألت أبا عبد الله عليه السلام عن قول الله جل وعز: " وسع كرسيه السماوات والارض " فقال: يا فضيل كل شئ في الكرسي، السماوات والارض وكل شئ في الكرسي.


Muhammad b. Isma`il from al-Fadl b. Shadhan from Hamad b. `Isa from Rab`I b. `Abdillah from al-Fudayl b. Yasar.


He said: I asked Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام about the saying of Allah جل وعز, “His kursi overspreads the heavens and the Earth” (2:255). So he said: O Fudayl, everything is in the kursi – the heavens and the Earth and every thing is in the kursi. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 333)

(ka‘s-sahih)

 

محمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى، عن الحجال، عن ثعلبة [ بن ميمون ] عن زرارة بن أعين قال: سألت أبا عبد الله عليه السلام عن قول الله جل وعز: " وسع كرسيه السماوات والارض " السماوات والارض وسعن الكرسي أم الكرسي وسع السماوات والارض؟ فقال: بل الكرسي وسع السماوات والارض والعرش، وكل شئ وسع الكرسي.


Muhammad b. Yahya from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. `Isa from al-Hajjal from Tha`laba b. Maymun from Zurara b. A`yan.


He said: I asked Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام about the saying of Allah جل وعز, “His kursi overspreads the heavens and the Earth” (2:255) – do the heavens and the Earth overspread the kursi, or does the kursi overspread the heavens and the Earth? So he said: The kursi overspreads the heavens, the Earth, and the throne (`arsh); and all things overspread the kursi. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 334)

(sahih) (صحيح)

 

محمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن الحسين بن سعيد، عن فضالة بن أيوب، عن عبد الله بن بكير، عن زرارة بن أعين قال: سألت أبا عبد الله عليه السلام عن قول الله عز وجل: " وسع كرسيه السماوات والارض " السماوات والارض وسعن الكرسي أو الكرسي وسع السماوات والارض؟ فقال: إن كل شئ في الكرسي.

 

Muhammad b. Yahya from Ahmad b. Muhammad from al-Husayn b. Sa`eed from Fudala b. Ayyub from `Abdillah b. Bukayr from Zurara b. A`yan.


He said: I asked Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام about the saying of Allah عز وجل, “His kursi overspreads the heavens and the Earth” (2:255) – do the heavens and the Earth overspread the kursi, or does the kursi overspread the heavens and the Earth? So he said: Everything is in the kursi. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 335)

(muwathaq kal-sahih) (موثق كالصحيح)

 

في تفسير على بن ابراهيم حدثنى أبى عن القاسم بن محمد عن سليمان بن داود المنقرى عن حماد عن أبى عبد الله عليه السلام أنه سئل: الملائكة أكثر أم بنو آدم ؟ فقال: والذى نفسي بيده لملائكة الله في السموات أكثر من عدد التراب في الارض، وما في السماء موضع قدم الا وفيه ملك يسبحه ويقدسه، ولا في الارض شجرة ولا مدرة الا وفيها ملك موكل بها يأتي الله كل يوم بعملها، والله أعلم بها، وما منهم أحد الا و يتقرب كل يوم إلى الله بولايتنا أهل البيت ويستغفر لمحبنا ويلعن أعدائنا، ويسال الله عزوجل أن يرسل عليهم العذاب إرسالا، وقوله: (الذين يحملون العرش) يعنى رسول الله صلى الله عليه واله والاوصياء من بعده يحملون علم الله (ومن حوله) يعنى الملائكة (يسبحون بحمد ربهم ويستغفرون للذين آمنوا) يعنى شيعة آل محمد (ربنا وسعت كل شئ رحمة وعلما فاغفر للذين تابوا) من ولاية فلان وفلان وبنى امية (واتبعوا سبيلك) أي ولاية ولى الله (وقهم عذاب الجحيم) إلى قوله (الحكيم) يعنى من تولى عليا عليه السلام، فذلك صلاحهم (وقهم السيئات ومن تق السيئات يومئذ فقد رحمته) يعنى يوم القيامة (وذلك هو الفوز العظيم) لمن نجاه الله من هؤلاء يعنى ولاية فلان وفلان وفلان.

"Those who uphold the throne and those around it glorify in the praise of their Lord and seek forgiveness for those who believe [saying:] 'Our Lord, You have encompassed all things in mercy and knowledge, so forgive those who have repented and have followed Your way and protect them from the punishment of Hellfire. Our Lord, admit them to gardens of perpetual residence which You have promised them and whoever was righteous among their fathers, their spouses, and their offspring. Surely, it is You who is the exalted in Might, the Wise. And protect them from sins. He whom You protect from sins that Day, you will have given him mercy, that is the great victory.'" (40:7-9)

A man asked Imam Ja`far b. Muhammad [a], “Are there more angels than humans?”

The Imam replied, “By the One who has my soul in His hands, the angels of Allah in the heavens are greater in number than the amount of grains of dirt in the Earth. There is not a place in the heavens except that there is an angel that glorifies and sanctifies Him, and there is not a tree or a lump in the Earth except that there is a guardian angel whose actions are observed by Allah – and Allah knows best about it. There is not one from them except that it gets closer to Allah everyday through our wilaya, the Ahl al-Bayt. They seek forgiveness for our lovers, and they curse our enemies and ask Him to send His punishment to them. And His saying, ‘Those who uphold the throne’ – meaning, the Messenger of Allah and the deputies after him who uphold the [revealed] knowledge of Allah – ‘and those around it’ – meaning, the angels – ‘glorify in the praise of their Lord and seek forgiveness for those who believe’ – meaning, the followers of the Family of Muhammad – ‘[saying:] Our Lord, You have encompassed all things in mercy and knowledge, so forgive those who have repented’ – from the allegiance of so-and-so and so-and-so and Bani Umayya – ‘and have followed Your way’ – this is the wilaya of the Vicegerent of Allah – ‘and protect them from the punishment of Hellfire. Our Lord, admit them to gardens of perpetual residence which You have promised them and whoever was righteous among their fathers, their spouses, and their offspring. Surely, it is You who is the exalted in Might, the Wise.’ – meaning, those who aligned with `Ali [a], for that is their deliverance – ‘and protect them from sins. He whom You protect from sins that Day, you will have given him mercy,’ – meaning, on the Day of Resurrection – ‘that is the great victory.’ (40:7-9) – meaning, whomever Allah delivers from these (so-and-so, so-and-so, and so-and so).”

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Jimmy Boy said:

Many thanks for your answers,guys!From the link of uponthesunnah it seems to me that Shias view the throne metaphorically as it is called ' a name for knowledge and power';and do not consider it a physical object present somewhere;just as God does not have a physical body either.Am I right?

 

You have to be careful though, God always had knowledge, so if means his own knowledge, then what does it mean he created in 6 days and then mounted on his own knowledge or gained knowledge of all things? Like Imam Khomeini interpreted, it must mean the heart of the perfect human. 

Knowledge also requires a living object, so if you read the hadiths that Qaim put, put in mind that. It cannot refer to some computer code on water with all knowledge or anything like that.

There is also other hadiths about this subject.

On key one is the Meraaj hadith, and Mohammad going beyond all Angels, and reaching a station past them.

And we also read in Du'as to bless Imam Al-Zaman or family of Mohammad, with all blessing found in the adornment of the throne, and all that God's book encompasses.

True life is vision, it's consciousness, it's light, luminosity, it's knowledge.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Jimmy Boy said:

Many thanks for your answers,guys!From the link of uponthesunnah it seems to me that Shias view the throne metaphorically as it is called ' a name for knowledge and power';and do not consider it a physical object present somewhere;just as God does not have a physical body either.Am I right?

The best person to ask would be Q'aim. I pretty much think this is the case, but i don't want to mislead. 

He has painstakingly translated the entire Kitab Al Tawhid and included graded ahadith and reliable ones from that book.

The piercing logic and beauty of the shia understanding of Tawheed never, ever loses its lustre: http://www.imamiyya.com/hadith/usul-kafi/book-3

Edited by uponthesunnah
Link to post
Share on other sites

There is this noble Du'a from Imam Ali:

 

In the name of Allah the All Merciful the All Compassionate

O Allah I beseech You by that name which is preserved in the hidden treasurers, 
which is the greatest and the most important, Proof, Truth, Protector, Pure, which is light and is from light. 
It's light is with the light, and that light is above all lights, light filled with lights, brightness in brightness. 
That light by which all the darkness was illuminated/shined, which destroyed all the compellers which could not be controlled  by the Heavens or the Earth. 
O He through whom the fear of a fearful can be averted, the magic of the magician be cast away, 
the conspiracy of consipiror can be void, the jealousy of every jealous be finished, the rebellion of every rebel is stopped, 
in Presence of His Greatness the mountain the dryness, the wetness split open 
and if spoken then the Angels protect and if written on a ship and left then the stormy waves cannot reach it, 
with it every transgressor and enemy and disobedient devil is controlled and it is Your Majestic and Greatest name which You have used for Yourself, 
by which You are on the Holy Throne and on Your Exalted chair. 
O Allah who is Greater and the Greatest, 
O Allah the honoured light unparalled Greater of the Heavens and the Earth. 
O Lord of Majesty and Generosity I beseech You by Your Honour and Your Majesty and Your Power and Your Abundance and by the Position of Mohammad and his pure progeny (s.a.w.a.). 
I supplicate to You by You and by Mohammad and his progeny
that send blessings on Mohammad and his progeny and free me, 
and my parents and the believing men and the believing women from the fire of Hell 
and send blessings on Mohammad and his progeny. 
Surely You are the Praised the Glorious.

 

 

 

The hadiths showing the face of God/Name of God is Ahlulbayt are many aswell and verified in Quran.

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, uponthesunnah said:

The best person to ask would be Q'aim. I pretty much think this is the case, but i don't want to mislead. 

He has painstakingly translated the entire Kitab Al Tawhid and included graded ahadith and reliable ones from that book.

The piercing logic and beauty of the shia understanding of Tawheed never, ever loses its lustre: http://www.imamiyya.com/hadith/usul-kafi/book-3

 

You have to read hadiths holistically and with other hadiths, and also keeping in mind the verses of Quran are trying to awakening humanity to something, and it has to make sense with the explicit words of Quran as well.

Link to post
Share on other sites

So it's HIS NAME by which he upon the throne....

This is also true we see when God says "God is the light of the heavens and earth", the hadiths talk about his name giving light to all things.

So God is the light and heavens of the earth through his NAME.

The above Du'a is taken from Saheefa Alawiya.  The Name is the most emphasized teaching of Ahlulbayt, the face of God is beyond just important, it's the position of Ahlulbayt to humanity.

 

Edited by LinkZelda
Link to post
Share on other sites
59 minutes ago, Qa'im said:


A man asked Imam Ja`far b. Muhammad [a], “Are there more angels than humans?”

The Imam replied, “By the One who has my soul in His hands, the angels of Allah in the heavens are greater in number than the amount of grains of dirt in the Earth. There is not a place in the heavens except that there is an angel that glorifies and sanctifies Him, and there is not a tree or a lump in the Earth except that there is a guardian angel whose actions are observed by Allah – and Allah knows best about it. There is not one from them except that it gets closer to Allah everyday through our wilaya, the Ahl al-Bayt. They seek forgiveness for our lovers, and they curse our enemies and ask Him to send His punishment to them. And His saying, ‘Those who uphold the throne’ – meaning, the Messenger of Allah and the deputies after him who uphold the [revealed] knowledge of Allah – ‘and those around it’ – meaning, the angels – ‘glorify in the praise of their Lord and seek forgiveness for those who believe’ – meaning, the followers of the Family of Muhammad – ‘[saying:] Our Lord, You have encompassed all things in mercy and knowledge, so forgive those who have repented’ – from the allegiance of so-and-so and so-and-so and Bani Umayya – ‘and have followed Your way’ – this is the wilaya of the Vicegerent of Allah – ‘and protect them from the punishment of Hellfire. Our Lord, admit them to gardens of perpetual residence which You have promised them and whoever was righteous among their fathers, their spouses, and their offspring. Surely, it is You who is the exalted in Might, the Wise.’ – meaning, those who aligned with `Ali [a], for that is their deliverance – ‘and protect them from sins. He whom You protect from sins that Day, you will have given him mercy,’ – meaning, on the Day of Resurrection – ‘that is the great victory.’ (40:7-9) – meaning, whomever Allah delivers from these (so-and-so, so-and-so, and so-and so).”

a

5

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...