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In the Name of God بسم الله

Fatimah & Laylat ul Qadr

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I would like reliable narrations proving this , because big claims like this need big evidence.

I think what we need to be clear on, whether this is or is not true is, Laylatul Qadr first and foremost, is what it is as is known by its most common meaning and understanding.

If there are also additional meanings, thats fine, but just bring evidence. [I am not saying x is false or true, but rather, no-one should feel threatened if one asks for evidence]

This post is not aimed at you OP, nor is it aimed at disproving what you have said, and if someone can bring forth reliable evidence, i would be happy to submit to it.

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True value/worth is veiled and we will come to know it's truth more closely to the day of judgment.

The reality we are all connected to which is the value of all beings in the universe from atoms to Angels etc, all together,  which is a spirit from that contains all affairs, and is the book that God records all things, and the manifest leader by which all those who gain light gain light by, is veiled, right now.

If we knew it as clear as day, none of us would sin, all of us would do our utmost to do good deeds, and Satan would not be able to misguide a single person. But God has veiled the hour, and the reality of it, well almost has, it is still manifest in a subtle way.

HaMeem refers to Mohammad. The greatest veil of Islam lies in the worth and potential of women, and hence, the most veiled is Fatima.  And the manifest book refers to Ali. This is what Ahlulbayt told us. 

The night in Ramadan is suppose to emphasize, that God decides the worth of all things, and only through him can you recognize the true leader and guide. For example, without Quran, without hadiths, without Ahlulbayt expaining to us about 23rd night, none of us would be able to even guess there is such a thing as a night that is worth more then a thousand months. But God is saying, he knows the true value of all things.

It's either the literal actual night and Fatima is likened to it, and is hidden meaning or Fatima is the actual meaning, and the night in Ramadan is a parable to her and the Imams, and Mohammad.

It can be the night in which there is a great closeness from God to Imams or his chosen ones, in this case, it's their highest state they have. In this case, the real greatness would be the state Mohammad and family of Mohammad have in that moment, which is closer to their reality, while in other times, they have to be more engaged with guiding creation.

But if you ponder over "what will make you know what the night of Qadr is...", the description of then is something that happens to Ahlulbayt all the time, per other ahadith. Therefore the literal meaning being Fatima, while the night of Qadr in Ramadan used to emphasize that God is the one who recognizes the value of his servants and is to choose the path for humanity, and religion for humanity, and is aware of their potential and those who reached it's fullest perfection.

Think about the issue,  and think about how no one can assign value themselves, it's through God who we have to come to know what value of our deeds are, and what moment is worth more then another.... he knows the secret, and this is a reminder we depend on the objective perceiver to our soul.

What all supports this is that when we bless Mohammad and the family of Mohammad, we always bless them with a blessing that unites all blessings in creation, and they reach a much higher stage and are blessed intensely. This shows that the night of Qadr blessings are received by them constantly, every second, every moment, constant blessings from God, Angels, Prophets, and believers upon them.

Their true worth cannot be known, and out of all veils of the status of value, it's Fatima, due to the misconceptions of what a woman should be and ought to be in all humanity, and the belitted nature in all cultures in all times towards women.

So the greater veil of value is upon Fatima. The night of Qadr is saying Qadr which is the sun of the world, it's value, it's worth, it's light, is veiled, and not even Mohammad truly knows his own worth, but he sure knows it better then the rest of us blind people chasing the dunya and not loving the family of Mohammad and Ali as we should!

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The author (may Allah have mercy upon him), quoting Shaykh Abu Ja'far at-Tūsī, from his men, from 'Abdullāh ibn 'Ajlān as-Sakūnī, said: “I heard Abu Ja'far ('a) say: The house of 'Alī and Fātimah is the room of the Messenger of Allah (s), and the roof of their house is the 'Arsh of the Lord of the worlds. And at the bottom of their house there is an uncovered opening to the 'Arsh, the mi'rāj of revelation; and the angels bring down revelation upon them in the morning and in the evening and every hour and twinkle of an eye.

The angels are in ceaseless groups, some descending and some ascending. And Allah, the Blessed and Exalted, disclosed to Ibrāhīm the heavens till he saw the 'Arsh and He increased his seeing power. And Allah increased the seeing power of Muhammad, 'Alī, Fātimah, al-Hasan and al-Husayn ('a). They used to see the 'Arsh and they found no roof over their houses except the 'Arsh. Their houses were roofed with the 'Arsh of the Beneficent, and the ascensions of the angels and the Spirit in them, with the permission of their Lord, for every affair in peace. 'I said: “for every affair'.” He said: 'In every affair.' I said: 'Is that revelation?' He said: 'Yes'.”

Al-Burhān Exegesis, vol. 4, ”Surah al-Qadr,” hadīth 25, p. 487

Source - Adab al-Salat -- Chapter on Surah Qadr

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On 11/12/2016 at 8:31 PM, MuslimahAK said:

Salamu Alaikum!

I just found out that Fatimah is Laylat ul Qadr. I am still having a hard time understanding it. We mention Ahlul Bayt during salat, but don't pray to them AND Fatimah is an intercessor.

I would love some help on thus.

Shukran.

wa 'alaykum assalam,

Just a few brief points about this narration, it is not found in any of the principal books of hadith (not even al-Kafi which has a lot of these supernatural type narrations), it is found in a book called Tafsir Furat al-Kufi, who's author's madhhab is uncertain, tafsir compilations such as Nur al-Thaqalayn and even Tafsir al-Burhan - which includes Sunni narrations - did not include narrations from Furat al-Kufi.

Personally, I'm not sure how people can pull an odd narration from a lesser book of tafsir that isn't free from problems and then claim it as a fact - not to mention that it contradicts other narrations about Laylat al-Qadr that are found in more important books.

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On 11/13/2016 at 2:30 AM, silasun said:

The author (may Allah have mercy upon him), quoting Shaykh Abu Ja'far at-Tūsī, from his men, from 'Abdullāh ibn 'Ajlān as-Sakūnī, said: “I heard Abu Ja'far ('a) say: The house of 'Alī and Fātimah is the room of the Messenger of Allah (s), and the roof of their house is the 'Arsh of the Lord of the worlds. And at the bottom of their house there is an uncovered opening to the 'Arsh, the mi'rāj of revelation; and the angels bring down revelation upon them in the morning and in the evening and every hour and twinkle of an eye.

The angels are in ceaseless groups, some descending and some ascending. And Allah, the Blessed and Exalted, disclosed to Ibrāhīm the heavens till he saw the 'Arsh and He increased his seeing power. And Allah increased the seeing power of Muhammad, 'Alī, Fātimah, al-Hasan and al-Husayn ('a). They used to see the 'Arsh and they found no roof over their houses except the 'Arsh. Their houses were roofed with the 'Arsh of the Beneficent, and the ascensions of the angels and the Spirit in them, with the permission of their Lord, for every affair in peace. 'I said: “for every affair'.” He said: 'In every affair.' I said: 'Is that revelation?' He said: 'Yes'.”

Al-Burhān Exegesis, vol. 4, ”Surah al-Qadr,” hadīth 25, p. 487

Source - Adab al-Salat -- Chapter on Surah Qadr

Grading of this hadith? 

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On 11/13/2016 at 6:38 AM, Ali_Hussain said:

Just a few brief points about this narration,

There isn't just one narration. For example, we have other ahadith that verify it:

Muhammad ibn Ya'qūb, on the authority of Abū 'Abdullāh [as-Sādiq] ('a), concerning the performance of the Messenger of Allah (s) his salāt in the heaven, in the hadīth of al-Isrā', said: “…Then Allah, the Most High, revealed to him: Read, O Muhammad, the lineage [nisbat] of your Lord, the Blessed and Most High: 'He is Allah, the One. He is besought by all. He begets not, nor is He begotten. And none is comparable to Him.' This is in the first rak'ah. Then, Allah, the Exalted and Most High, revealed to him: Read: 'All praise is for Allah.' He read it as he did first. Then Allah revealed to him: Read: 'We revealed it' which is your lineage [nisbat] and your offspring's till the Day of Resurrection.”

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12 minutes ago, LinkZelda said:

There isn't just one narration. For example, we have other ahadith that verify it:

Muhammad ibn Ya'qūb, on the authority of Abū 'Abdullāh [as-Sādiq] ('a), concerning the performance of the Messenger of Allah (s) his salāt in the heaven, in the hadīth of al-Isrā', said: “…Then Allah, the Most High, revealed to him: Read, O Muhammad, the lineage [nisbat] of your Lord, the Blessed and Most High: 'He is Allah, the One. He is besought by all. He begets not, nor is He begotten. And none is comparable to Him.' This is in the first rak'ah. Then, Allah, the Exalted and Most High, revealed to him: Read: 'All praise is for Allah.' He read it as he did first. Then Allah revealed to him: Read: 'We revealed it' which is your lineage [nisbat] and your offspring's till the Day of Resurrection.”

The narration that you quoted says that the "it" is referring to the lineage of the Prophet, but "it" isn't laylat al-Qadr, so I don't really understand your point.

Even if this narration was referring to laylat al-Qadr,  it still wouldn't say what you are trying to make it say as it clearly isn't limiting the meaning to sayeda Fatima [a].

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On 11/13/2016 at 10:40 AM, Ali_Hussain said:

The narration that you quoted says that the "it" is referring to the lineage of the Prophet, but "it" isn't laylat al-Qadr, so I don't really understand your point.

Even if this narration was referring to laylat al-Qadr,  it still wouldn't say what you are trying to make it say as it clearly isn't limiting the meaning to sayeda Fatima [a].

The Imams when they say the straight path is Ali, they don't mean to limit it to Ali. You have to understand the way they speak.

This Surah as well Suratal Tawheed, I personally believe, are among the most delicate philosophical Surahs in Quran. The issue of what is value, if you read the hadith that says it's Fatima, it says that the "value/worth" is God.

But what can true value be, other than God? 

The other thing is how do we determine a value of a time, a moment, or person?  In this verse it's stating that this single night is worth a thousand months. And this only makes sense it's referring to a thousand months without laylatal qadr.

So how do we know that moment is better then all? How would we objectively measure a moment, scale it?

Think about the issue, and think about how we measure ourselves. How we value ourselves. The hadith says the true value is Allah. How many of us measure our worth with our relationship to God as opposed to vain worthless things?

I mean humanity is totally averse to themselves and the name of God that is with them and gives light to them. They cherry pick what they want of it, not recognize it's potential.

They are veiled and this is a fact. All this stays true no matter what. The potential actualized and fully reached is Ahlulbayt, but the greatest veil on potential is what a woman can and should be. This is why it makes sense all though it's in general about Ahlulbayt, as well as humanity, it refers specifically to Fatima.

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This thread reminded me of a typical lecture I hear in my community. 'Islam is a religion of justice. Justice doesn't mean the western concept of justice. Justice means keeping everything at its place'. This argument can be used to justify racism, misogyny, and any kind of oppression. Because white people can argue, they are just keeping black people at their rightful place. 

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On 11/13/2016 at 2:38 PM, rkazmi33 said:

This thread reminded me of a typical lecture I hear in my community. 'Islam is a religion of justice. Justice doesn't mean the western concept of justice. Justice means keeping everything at its place'. This argument can be used to justify racism, misogyny, and any kind of oppression. Because white people can argue, they are just keeping black people at their rightful place. 

That is why our Imams defining it as a name of God and that Quran says we ask one another rights through God, and that we peace and justice are names of God he has entrusted on creation, is superior then that circular definition. 

So to recognize justice, you have to recognize the VALUE of God in each soul, and the rights of his creation through God's light, but our eyes are blind and our scent is cut off, and so that is not possible except through awakening to God's light and that is not possible except through the leaders and guides he appoints.

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On 11/13/2016 at 2:30 AM, silasun said:

The author (may Allah have mercy upon him), quoting Shaykh Abu Ja'far at-Tūsī, from his men, from 'Abdullāh ibn 'Ajlān as-Sakūnī, said: “I heard Abu Ja'far ('a) say: The house of 'Alī and Fātimah is the room of the Messenger of Allah (s), and the roof of their house is the 'Arsh of the Lord of the worlds. And at the bottom of their house there is an uncovered opening to the 'Arsh, the mi'rāj of revelation; and the angels bring down revelation upon them in the morning and in the evening and every hour and twinkle of an eye.

The angels are in ceaseless groups, some descending and some ascending. And Allah, the Blessed and Exalted, disclosed to Ibrāhīm the heavens till he saw the 'Arsh and He increased his seeing power. And Allah increased the seeing power of Muhammad, 'Alī, Fātimah, al-Hasan and al-Husayn ('a). They used to see the 'Arsh and they found no roof over their houses except the 'Arsh. Their houses were roofed with the 'Arsh of the Beneficent, and the ascensions of the angels and the Spirit in them, with the permission of their Lord, for every affair in peace. 'I said: “for every affair'.” He said: 'In every affair.' I said: 'Is that revelation?' He said: 'Yes'.”

Al-Burhān Exegesis, vol. 4, ”Surah al-Qadr,” hadīth 25, p. 487

Source - Adab al-Salat -- Chapter on Surah Qadr

Does Allah have a throne in Shia Islam?I have Always heard it's Sunnis who believe He ha a body and sits on a throne,while Shias believe He is immaterial....

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On 11/13/2016 at 5:42 PM, Jimmy Boy said:

Does Allah have a throne in Shia Islam?I have Always heard it's Sunnis who believe He ha a body and sits on a throne,while Shias believe He is immaterial....

The Quran mentions throne. And so our hadiths obviously have it.  The sky in Quran refers to Mohammad often, see our ahadiths. It's his true station, but as everything has been created from him, so is God's earth, so are it's fruits and food, so are it's stabilzing mountains, they all been created from his reality, it's how God created his divine names in creation, and brought down the balance and set up the balance of his names. For example, when water descended from the sky and gave tranquility to believers in batttle, the sky was Mohammad and the water is said to be love of Ali in our hadiths.

We know that water and light are used together, one to manifest the nourishing pure nature of blessings, and the latter to manifest it's illumination. 

There is the following from misbahal shariah as well which is illuminating to much of Quran:

The Commander of the Faithful said, 'Love of Allah is a fire which does not pass by anything without burning it up; the light of Allah does not come over something without illuminating it.
 
The skies of Allah do not cause a cloud to appear without it covering whatever is beneath it; the wind of Allah does not blow on something without it moving. Allah's water gives life to everything, and from Allah's earth everything grows. Whoever loves Allah is given every possession and authority.'
 
The Holy Prophet said, 'When Allah loves a slave in my community, He casts love of him into the hearts of His friends, the spirits of the angels and the keepers of His throne, so that they love him.’
 
That lover truly has an abundance of bliss, and will be able to intercede with Allah on the Day of Resurrection.'

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On 11/13/2016 at 5:59 PM, LinkZelda said:

The Quran mentions throne. And so our hadiths obviously have it.  The sky in Quran refers to Mohammad often, see our ahadiths. It's his true station, but as everything has been created from him, so is God's earth, so are it's fruits and food, so are it's stabilzing mountains, they all been created from his reality, it's how God created his divine names in creation, and brought down the balance and set up the balance of his names. For example, when water descended from the sky and gave tranquility to believers in batttle, the sky was Mohammad and the water is said to be love of Ali in our hadiths.

We know that water and light are used together, one to manifest the nourishing pure nature of blessings, and the latter to manifest it's illumination. 

There is the following from misbahal shariah as well which is illuminating to much of Quran:

The Commander of the Faithful said, 'Love of Allah is a fire which does not pass by anything without burning it up; the light of Allah does not come over something without illuminating it.
 
The skies of Allah do not cause a cloud to appear without it covering whatever is beneath it; the wind of Allah does not blow on something without it moving. Allah's water gives life to everything, and from Allah's earth everything grows. Whoever loves Allah is given every possession and authority.'
 
The Holy Prophet said, 'When Allah loves a slave in my community, He casts love of him into the hearts of His friends, the spirits of the angels and the keepers of His throne, so that they love him.’
 
That lover truly has an abundance of bliss, and will be able to intercede with Allah on the Day of Resurrection.'

Many thaks!I've started a thread about the concept of the throne of God;you might want to add your two cents!

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On 11/13/2016 at 6:38 AM, Ali_Hussain said:

wa 'alaykum assalam,

Just a few brief points about this narration, it is not found in any of the principal books of hadith (not even al-Kafi which has a lot of these supernatural type narrations), it is found in a book called Tafsir Furat al-Kufi, who's author's madhhab is uncertain, tafsir compilations such as Nur al-Thaqalayn and even Tafsir al-Burhan - which includes Sunni narrations - did not include narrations from Furat al-Kufi.

Personally, I'm not sure how people can pull an odd narration from a lesser book of tafsir that isn't free from problems and then claim it as a fact - not to mention that it contradicts other narrations about Laylat al-Qadr that are found in more important books.

I've found another narration with similar wording:

ليلة القدر خير من الف شهر يعني فاطمة سلام الله عليها

روي عن محمد بن جمهور عن موسى بن بكر عن زرارة عن حمران

The Night of Ordainment is better than a thousand months meaning Fatima, Allah's peace be upon her.

Narrated from Muhammad bin Jumhur, from Musa bin Bakr from Zurara from Humran

Ta'wil al-Ayat, v.2, p.818

Regarding Muhammad bin Jumhur, al-Tusi says:

  الطوسي: (الرجال: 364)، في أصحاب الرضا: محمّد بن جمهور العمي، عربي، بصري، غال

From the companions of al-Ridha: Muhammad bin Jumhur al-'Ami, Arab, Basri, Extremist.

Rijal al-Tusi #364

al-Najashi says

النجاشي: (محمد بن جمهور، أبو عبد الله، العمي، ضعيف في الحديث، فاسد المذهب، وقيل فيه أشياء الله أعلم بها من عظمها، روى عن الرضا، وله كتب: كتاب الملاحم الكبير، كتاب نوادر الحج، كتاب أدب العلم) (رجال النجاشي: 337)

Muhammad bin Jumhur, Abu 'Abd Allah, al-'Ami, weak in hadith, (of) corrupt doctrine, and things have been said regarding him, Allah knows best about their enormity (?), he narrated from al-Ridha, he has books: Kitab al-Malahim al-Kabir, Kitab Nawadir al-Hajj, Kitab Adab al-'Ilm.

Rijal al-Najashi #901 (p.322)

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In Volume forty-three of the book Bihar-al-Anwar Hazrat Imam Sadiq (a.s.) said in a tradition recorded in the commentary of “Forat-bin-Ibrahim” speaking of the meaning of the Quranic verse:

English Interpretation: “The night of (Qadr), i.e. Divine Decrees is Fatimah (s.a.), therefore whoever knows Fatimah (s.a.) well has understood the Night of Divine Decrees, and the reason for Fatimah being named Fatimah (it is from the root word (فطم) originally meaning “weaning from milk” and in the appropriate choice of this name for the lady Islam, reasons have been mentioned, including the above meaning.) is that mankind has been “Prevented from obtaining” her acquaintance!” (Bihar-al-Anwar; vol. 43 pg. 65; tradition 58)

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