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mudhorse

Ex-Shia talks about why he left Shi'ism

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28 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

He doesn't really say anything that hasn't been heard before. You would expect an ex-Shia 'researcher' to at least come up with some arguments that don't sound identical to standard Sunni ones.

Thanks for your reply. I am going to list a few of his claims (will update later with more). I would really like to see some arguments with some good solid references.

1. "They believe in 12 Imams who are infallible like Prophets... They are chosen by Allah and his messenger by text from the Quran. So there are 12 men who are clearly infallible, clearly chosen by Quranic text, and they have Knowledge of Unseen (Ilm ul Gaib). It is literally described as their knowledge as Allah's knowledge... The Imam has knowledge about every leaf that drops from a tree and every drop in a ocean. Who is described with this kind of knowledge? Allah."

2. "Shias have filled books claiming that its very clear in the Quran, very clear in the sunnah that the Imam'ah of Ali, Hassan, Hussain... All these evidences are shallow. They are not strong. For example ayah Tatheer (33:33). The first shocking thing is that its not even a complete ayah that they recite. This is not even a complete verse (what they recite), its cut in half. How would you translate this ayah? Certainly Allah wants to remove the impurity from you Ahlul Bayt. Whats this got to do with Imam'ah? This is one of the, if not the, most strongest evidences against the other muslims to say that we are on the truth. Where does it say anywhere in that verse that you've got to follow 12 Imams that are infallible etc? We don't hate any of these 12 personalities. The only thing we disagree with is the same way we disagree with the persona with the version of Jesus in trinity."

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8 minutes ago, mudhorse said:

Thanks for your reply. I am going to list a few of his claims (will update later with more). I would really like to see some arguments with some good solid references.

1. "They believe in 12 Imams who are infallible like Prophets... They are chosen by Allah and his messenger by text from the Quran. So there are 12 men who are clearly infallible, clearly chosen by Quranic text, and they have Knowledge of Unseen (Ilm ul Gaib). It is literally described as their knowledge as Allah's knowledge... The Imam has knowledge about every leaf that drops from a tree and every drop in a ocean. Who is described with this kind of knowledge? Allah."

I don't know any Shia who says that the knowledge of the Imams is identical to Allah's knowledge. Yes, many have exaggerate beliefs about their knowledge, and there are also narrations that reflect that stream of thought within Shi'ism, but still nobody says it reaches Allah's knowledge. Also, there are many narrations that clearly say that the Imams don't have knowledge of the unseen, and instead that their knowledge is inherited from the Prophet (s).

8 minutes ago, mudhorse said:

2. "Shias have filled books claiming that its very clear in the Quran, very clear in the sunnah that the Imam'ah of Ali, Hassan, Hussain... All these evidences are shallow. They are not strong. For example ayah Tatheer (33:33). The first shocking thing is that its not even a complete ayah that they recite. This is not even a complete verse (what they recite), its cut in half. How would you translate this ayah? Certainly Allah wants to remove the impurity from you Ahlul Bayt. Whats this got to do with Imam'ah? This is one of the, if not the, most strongest evidences against the other muslims to say that we are on the truth. Where does it say anywhere in that verse that you've got to follow 12 Imams that are infallible etc? We don't hate any of these 12 personalities. The only thing we disagree with is the same way we disagree with the persona with the version of Jesus in trinity."

This is a strawman argument. Who says that the verse implies that you have to follow 12 Imams that are infallible? All that is said is that it supports the belief that there was special about the Ahlulbayt, and establishes the purification of those individuals. When he speaks of 'the sunnah', what he means is the sunnah as transmitted by Sunnis, but this is fallacious as we don't agree with their line of transmission. It is absurd to expect that people would transmit, and accept as authentic, a set of narrations that would refute their own religion. Having said that, there are still pieces of evidence here and there in Sunni books, such as:

'A'isha reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) went out one norning wearing a striped cloak of the black camel's hair that there came Hasan b. 'Ali. He wrapped hitn under it, then came Husain and he wrapped him under it along with the other one (Hasan). Then came Fatima and he took her under it, then came 'Ali and he also took him under it and then said: Allah only desires to take away any uncleanliness from you, O people of the household, and purify you (thorough purifying) (Sahih Muslim Book 31, Hadith 5955)

Yazid b. Hayyan reported, I went along with Husain b. Sabra and 'Umar b. Muslim to Zaid b. Arqam and, as we sat by his side, Husain said to him: Zaid. you have been able to acquire a great virtue that you saw Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) listened to his talk, fought by his side in (different) battles, offered prayer behind me. Zaid, you have in fact earned a great virtue. Zaid, narrate to us what you heard from Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him). He said: I have grown old and have almost spent my age and I have forgotten some of the things which I remembered in connection with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), so accept whatever I narrate to you, and which I do not narrate do not compel me to do that. He then said: One day Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) stood up to deliver sermon at a watering place known as Khumm situated between Mecca and Medina. He praised Allah, extolled Him and delivered the sermon and. exhorted (us) and said: Now to our purpose. O people, I am a human being. I am about to receive a messenger (the angel of death) from my Lord and I, in response to Allah's call, (would bid good-bye to you), but I am leaving among you two weighty things: the one being the Book of Allah in which there is right guidance and light, so hold fast to the Book of Allah and adhere to it. He exhorted (us) (to hold fast) to the Book of Allah and then said: The second are the members of my household I remind you (of your duties) to the members of my family. He (Husain) said to Zaid: Who are the members of his household? Aren't his wives the members of his family? Thereupon he said: His wives are the members of his family (but here) the members of his family are those for whom acceptance of Zakat is forbidden. And he said: Who are they? Thereupon he said: 'Ali and the offspring of 'Ali, 'Aqil and the offspring of 'Aqil and the offspring of Ja'far and the offspring of 'Abbas. Husain said: These are those for whom the acceptance of Zakat is forbidden. Zaid said: Yes. (Sahih Muslim Book 31, Hadith 5920)

The point of quoting these narrations isn't to 'prove' Shi'ism through Sunni narrations, according to Sunni standards of authenticity, which is something that can't be done for obvious reasons, just as you can't prove Islam from Christian sources through accepting their standards of authenticity. What it does show however is that this section of the verse (which he objects to allegedly being taken out of context) was applied to those we say it was applied to (also keep in mind that the same people were taken for Mubahila, not all his wives, cousins, and nephews. Secondly, it also establishes that the view of the wives of the Prophet were not part of the Ahlulbayt in the special sense we mean it is not something that is unique to us, and was clearly one held by at least some companions.

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1 hour ago, Haydar Husayn said:

I don't know any Shia who says that the knowledge of the Imams is identical to Allah's knowledge. Yes, many have exaggerate beliefs about their knowledge, and there are also narrations that reflect that stream of thought within Shi'ism, but still nobody says it reaches Allah's knowledge. Also, there are many narrations that clearly say that the Imams don't have knowledge of the unseen, and instead that their knowledge is inherited from the Prophet (s).

This is a strawman argument. Who says that the verse implies that you have to follow 12 Imams that are infallible? All that is said is that it supports the belief that there was special about the Ahlulbayt, and establishes the purification of those individuals. When he speaks of 'the sunnah', what he means is the sunnah as transmitted by Sunnis, but this is fallacious as we don't agree with their line of transmission. It is absurd to expect that people would transmit, and accept as authentic, a set of narrations that would refute their own religion. Having said that, there are still pieces of evidence here and there in Sunni books, such as:

'A'isha reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) went out one norning wearing a striped cloak of the black camel's hair that there came Hasan b. 'Ali. He wrapped hitn under it, then came Husain and he wrapped him under it along with the other one (Hasan). Then came Fatima and he took her under it, then came 'Ali and he also took him under it and then said: Allah only desires to take away any uncleanliness from you, O people of the household, and purify you (thorough purifying) (Sahih Muslim Book 31, Hadith 5955)

Yazid b. Hayyan reported, I went along with Husain b. Sabra and 'Umar b. Muslim to Zaid b. Arqam and, as we sat by his side, Husain said to him: Zaid. you have been able to acquire a great virtue that you saw Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) listened to his talk, fought by his side in (different) battles, offered prayer behind me. Zaid, you have in fact earned a great virtue. Zaid, narrate to us what you heard from Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him). He said: I have grown old and have almost spent my age and I have forgotten some of the things which I remembered in connection with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), so accept whatever I narrate to you, and which I do not narrate do not compel me to do that. He then said: One day Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) stood up to deliver sermon at a watering place known as Khumm situated between Mecca and Medina. He praised Allah, extolled Him and delivered the sermon and. exhorted (us) and said: Now to our purpose. O people, I am a human being. I am about to receive a messenger (the angel of death) from my Lord and I, in response to Allah's call, (would bid good-bye to you), but I am leaving among you two weighty things: the one being the Book of Allah in which there is right guidance and light, so hold fast to the Book of Allah and adhere to it. He exhorted (us) (to hold fast) to the Book of Allah and then said: The second are the members of my household I remind you (of your duties) to the members of my family. He (Husain) said to Zaid: Who are the members of his household? Aren't his wives the members of his family? Thereupon he said: His wives are the members of his family (but here) the members of his family are those for whom acceptance of Zakat is forbidden. And he said: Who are they? Thereupon he said: 'Ali and the offspring of 'Ali, 'Aqil and the offspring of 'Aqil and the offspring of Ja'far and the offspring of 'Abbas. Husain said: These are those for whom the acceptance of Zakat is forbidden. Zaid said: Yes. (Sahih Muslim Book 31, Hadith 5920)

The point of quoting these narrations isn't to 'prove' Shi'ism through Sunni narrations, according to Sunni standards of authenticity, which is something that can't be done for obvious reasons, just as you can't prove Islam from Christian sources through accepting their standards of authenticity. What it does show however is that this section of the verse (which he objects to allegedly being taken out of context) was applied to those we say it was applied to (also keep in mind that the same people were taken for Mubahila, not all his wives, cousins, and nephews. Secondly, it also establishes that the view of the wives of the Prophet were not part of the Ahlulbayt in the special sense we mean it is not something that is unique to us, and was clearly one held by at least some companions.

In your opinion, what is the strongest piece of evidence that suggests we should follow Imamah? How would you respond if someone asked you: Where in the Quran does it mention the concept of Imamah that Shias follow today?

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On 11/12/2016 at 8:59 PM, mudhorse said:

In your opinion, what is the strongest piece of evidence that suggests we should follow Imamah? How would you respond if someone asked you: Where in the Quran does it mention the concept of Imamah that Shias follow today?

For the concept of Imamah in the Qur'an, I would point to something like this: 

If they start asking about the twelve Imams being specifically named, then I would ask on what basis they think that is necessary.

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14 minutes ago, mudhorse said:

In your opinion, what is the strongest piece of evidence that suggests we should follow Imamah? How would you respond if someone asked you: Where in the Quran does it mention the concept of Imamah that Shias follow today?

Another good explanation here too:

 

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25 minutes ago, mudhorse said:

In your opinion, what is the strongest piece of evidence that suggests we should follow Imamah? How would you respond if someone asked you: Where in the Quran does it mention the concept of Imamah that Shias follow today?

 

It really depends. There is no universal stronger proof. For people who are more poetic and like to see patterns, "Peace be upon the family of Yaseen" might be an awakener. To those who can analyze literature, see the flow, contrast, and comparison all leading up to a climax, the verse leading up to Ulil-Amr are huge and the verses after.

People who think inductively, the "Twelve Captains" with "by the name of God is it's sailing" will appeal to them. Those OCD people who can never leave a number to be random but must have meaning, they will say why did he mention twelve, and then look at the whole Surahs in which those numbers are mentioned and the flow.   Their might people who like verses (and many Christians and Jews can be guided through these type of verse) that talk about the past to prove the present and future. A past that almost all of humanity agrees over all structure to. So for example, a huge appeal would be Suratal Sajda, and suratal Baqara.

For people who are in search of truth, and are not easily swayed to follow without knowledge, but are looking for leadership, Suratal Yonus and Suratal Araaf are huge indications.

For people who need verification in ahadith, Ayat Tatheer is huge.

For people who constant reminder and teasing of a subject appeals to them, the wage verses are huge.

Then there is the whole message of Quran that compliments each verse in itself and the verses are all interlinked and woven together.

There is also for people who love literal allusions verified by ahadith, the place of Harun, and the various paraphrasing of Moses prayer, with Suratal Inshirah.

I don't even know what gives me more faith. They all reinforce me with the message.

Also, a huge verse for mystics is the parable of light, and then saying "Men who neither...", so who are these men who are the light of the universe?  

Who is the blessed tree of light in this age?

 

 

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He is talking of Shias 'cut' and 'cut' but he is the one who ignores to fully translate or discuss stuffs, example: Ayat tathir on this clip, even the guy presses him a few times, but he kind of jumps here and there and does not finish a full sentence with a clear point. And the 12 caliphs which is a Sahi hadith and he kind of ignores it by making his own judgment 'oh he just said there will be or if will be 12 caliphs' and 'it is just a number game that Shias should stop to play'? What? Mr. Sunni researches I did not get your explanation from Sunnis point of view on  Quranic verses and on Sahi hadith.

Good for him for his research, I just wasted a good '20 minutes' of mine and listening to 'mumbling'  of the disputable topics between Shias and Sunnis, the best way to describe this video clip. I have no idea what was his main finding in his research to make him leave Shia Islam and enter these Takfiri club.

 

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The irony is the early muslims, say the companions and the first few generations did not understand calipha/imama as this sunni is saying. They had a view of calipha that is much more similar to the shia of today. They had the view that rejecting those in authority is apostasy, hence the ridda wars, and that there must be a leader, and going against the leader is a serious crime. 

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=2QKBUwBUWWkC&pg=PA54&lpg=PA54&dq=abu+bakr+allegiance+as+prophet&source=bl&ots=ePNPqV1CcD&sig=2PTpjVBmCj5-XyUHXsf4qZ8qghM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiv_qqI_6XQAhXrKcAKHVseCfA4ChDoAQg_MAk#v=onepage&q=abu bakr allegiance as prophet&f=false

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On 11/12/2016 at 0:22 PM, mudhorse said:

Thoughts?

And When Any News Comes To You

Surely, we live in difficult times, full of trials and tribulations. And one of the ways that we are tried by Allaah Subhaanahu wa Ta’ala is by testing us with rumors and how we react to them. We are bombarded with all sorts of information every day, be it directly from a person, on television, or via email. And many good-hearted people may just accept them, assuming this piece of news as indisputable facts coming from trustworthy sources. However, as a Muslim, what is our role towards such sayings and claims?
What does the Sharee’ah say about such information?

Allaah says:

“Behold, you received it on your tongues, and said out of your mouths things which you had no knowledge of; and you thought it to be a light matter, while it was most serious in the sight of Allaah” (Surah Nur: 15)

So before we accept what anyone and everyone says, there are certain points to keep in mind, as we all have to stand in front of Allaah one day.

1) VERIFY the news
We have to verify the information and ascertain, to the best of our ability, the truthfulness and authenticity of the news that reaches us. WHY? ……
Because Allaah orders you and me to be JUST

“Verily! Allâh commands that you should render back the trusts to those, to whom they are due; and that when you judge between men, you judge with justice. Verily, how excellent is the teaching which He gives you! Truly, Allâh is Ever All­Hearer, All­Seer.” (Surah Nisaa’:58)

2) Deliberate on the information
Think about what is being said, who is saying it and about whom is he saying it, before believing it.

“O you who believe! If a Faasiq (evil person) comes to you with any news, verify it, lest you should harm people in ignorance, and afterwards you become regretful for what you have done” [al-Hujuraat 49:6]

The Prophet (SAWW) said:

“Deliberation is from Allaah and haste is from the Shaytaan.” (al-Silsilah al-Saheehah)

3) Examine the circumstances
Sometimes something may appear or sound true on the surface but, you may not know the full circumstances behind the statement or the report may be taken out of context.
Al-Hasan al-Basri said: “The believer reserves judgment until the matter is proven.”

4) Look for PROOF
Anyone who claims a statement or levels an accusation against another person must provide proof:

“Say (O Muhammad), Produce your proof if you are truthful” [al-Baqarah:111]

And if they fail to produce any solid proof for what they claim……

“Since they produce not witnesses, they are the liars in the sight of Allaah” [al-Noor 24:13]

5)Ask the people in charge
The people in charge can explain the facts of the matter and remove any confusion or doubts a person may have,

“When there comes to them some matter touching (public) safety or fear, they make it known (among the people); if only they had referred it to the Messenger or to those charged with authority among them, the proper investigators would have understood it from them (directly). Had it not been for the Grace and Mercy of Allaah upon you, you would have followed Shaytaan (Satan), save a few of you” [al-Nisaa’ :83]

6) Stand up for the Truth
Search for and stand up for the Truth, and do not accept any false statements from anyone, even if it is from someone you love or hold close to your heart.

“O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allâh, even though it be against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, be he rich or poor, Allâh is a Better Protector to both (than you). So follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you may avoid justice, and if you distort your witness or refuse to give it, verily, Allâh is Ever Well­Acquainted with what you do.”(Surah Nisaa’:135)

7) Beware that it may be a LIE
The Sharee’ah issues a stern warning against passing on all that one hears.

The Messenger of Allaah (Sal Allaahu Alaiyhi wa Sallam) said:

“It is enough lying for a man to speak of everything that he hears.” (Muslim)

Al-Nawawi said: “Usually a person hears truth and lies, so if he speaks of everything that he hears, he is lying by telling of things that did not happen, and lying by speaking of something other than the way it happened….”

(8) Beware that it may be SLANDER
Many people just believe any news they hear and pass it on without even stopping to think that it may not be true. In that case it is a slander against the person that the news is about. And slander is a major sin.

“Woe to every backbiter, slanderer.” (Surah Humazah: 1)

And the Prophet (Sal Allaahu Alaiyhi wa Sallam) said:
‘No man accuses another of an immoral deed or kufr, but it will come back on him, if the person he accuses is not as he says he is.'” (Bukhari).

“No (Muslim) man will desert a man who is a Muslim in a place where his respect may be violated and his honor aspersed without Allah deserting him in a place where he wishes help.” (Abu Dawood -authenticated by Sheikh al-Albani)

9) Be careful of what you say

“Not a word is said except that there is a watcher by him ready to record it.” – [Surah Qaf :18]

The Prophet (Sal Allaahu Alaiyhi wa Sallam) said,

” Indeed a servant may say a word from which Allah’s displeasure is gained and he does not realize it. Allah will put him in Jahannam due to it.” (Bukhaari)

“O you who believe! Be afraid of Allaah, and be with those who are true (in words and deeds)” [al-Tawbah 9:119]

And why did you not, when you heard it, say?

“It is not right of us to speak of this: Glory to Allaah, this is a most serious slander” (Surah Nur:16)

May Allaah guide us and enable us to stand up for the Truth, wherever it may be. Ameen.

https://www.farhathashmi.com/articles-section/belief-and-introspection/and-when-any-news/

Edited by skamran110

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On 11/12/2016 at 6:52 PM, mudhorse said:

(33:33).

bismillah.gif

3+3+3+3 = 12! 

On 11/12/2016 at 6:52 PM, mudhorse said:

Sahih International

And abide in your houses and do not display yourselves as [was] the display of the former times of ignorance. And establish prayer and give zakah and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity [of sin], O people of the [Prophet's] household, and to purify you with [extensive] purification.

How can you get more clear than this and people still argue and not believe in Imamate??

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Guest Frogster

All of this is ridiculous. Determining who's  illogical argument is more logical is just absurd. Nobody is perfect. Those who say  they are,  are  arrogant liars. 

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