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Jafar moh

Anybodys take on this argument against Q- 33:33?

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specifically starting at 7:45 and onwards

This debate is fairly civil especially in that type of environment, so if members can take a look, what kind of defense can we use to facilitate our argument that this verse helps us in our idea of Imamat as Usool Al'deen and thus obligatory? The sunni man uses the idea of context between ayah 33:32 and 33:34 in order to use his idea, which for the most part is fair; what can we say about this? Is there something the shia man is missing or forgetting to say?

Sunnis and Shia's welcome

Salam

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First thing in 11.72 - The wife calls the husband aka Hz Ibrahim (Ale) so Allah does not call the wive the Ahle.

What the shia person was arguing is that the Allah addresses 2 groups of people in verses 28-35 namely the wives and the AhlulBayt.

If one pays attention to the tone of the verses. apart from the last section of verse 33, everything else is said in a fairly stern voice from 28-35 almost in a rebuking tone. So it seems like 2 different groups are being spoken to.

Also in 33.28, 33.30, 33.32 - they are continuously addressed as wives so one can't say that wives and AhlulBayt are being used interchangeably.

Lastly, even if one is to accept that wives are part of the AhlulBayt, there status would still be lower than that of Ali, Fatima Hassan, Hussain (as on all) because they are AhlulBayt by birth and the wives only become AhlulBayt after marriage to the Prophet. Allah uses the present tense in the verses "desires to keep to clean". This implies perpetuity and there is no way that the wives were free from 'rijs' prior to their marriage to the Prophet. As a matter of fact, it almost negates the 'clean from rijs' verse if applied to the wives.

Hope this helps.

Edited by shiaman14

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17 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

First thing in 11.72 - The wife calls the husband aka Hz Ibrahim (Ale) so Allah does not call the wive the Ahle.

What the shia person was arguing is that the Allah addresses 2 groups of people in verses 28-35 namely the wives and the AhlulBayt.

If one pays attention to the tone of the verses. apart from the last section of verse 33, everything else is said in a fairly stern voice from 28-35 almost in a rebuking tone. So it seems like 2 different groups are being spoken to.

Also in 33.28, 33.30, 33.32 - they are continuously addressed as wives so one can't say that wives and AhlulBayt are being used interchangeably.

Lastly, even if one is to accept that wives are part of the AhlulBayt, there status would still be lower than that of Ali, Fatima Hassan, Hussain (as on all) because they are AhlulBayt by birth and the wives only become AhlulBayt after marriage to the Prophet. Allah uses the present tense in the verses "desires to keep to clean". This implies perpetuity and there is no way that the wives were free from 'rijs' prior to their marriage to the Prophet. As a matter of fact, it almost negates the 'clean from rijs' verse if applied to the wives.

Hope this helps.

brother, I add the following:

The narrations by the wives of the prophets saww clarify that the Ahlul kissa are covered only in the verse of purification last part of 33;33 and no wife is included in it.

So the matter has been decided by Allah swt and the Prophet saww that no one can be included in the scope of the verse of purification except the progeny of the prophet saww. The verse 33;36 provides the evidence that :

And it behoves not a believing man and a believing woman that they should have any choice in their matter when Allah and His Apostle have decided a matter; and whoever disobeys Allah and His Apostle, he surely strays off a manifest straying.  (33:36)

so on the basis of all quoted above the claims that wives are covered in the scope of verses of purification are rejected.

 

 

Edited by skamran110

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On 08/05/2010 at 4:08 AM, zainabia said:

Difference between "Normal Ahl-e-Bait" and "Ahlebait-e-Taharah" (also known as Ahlebait-e-Nabuwah)

I don't know why Shia brothers fight with Sunni brothers upon the world "Ahlebait"? According to Arabic Language, even the cat of house is also known as member of Ahlebait. Therefore, it is very wrong approach from Shia brothers to make Discussion about the word "Ahlebait" which indeed could include wives in it.

No, the dispute is not upon the word "Ahlebait", but the dispute is this that:

 

 

1. Either Wives are part of those Ahlebait, who were Promised by

Allah

to be made "Perfectly Purified"?

 

2. Or it were only the FIVE who came under the Blanket, and Rasool (saw) prayed for them and then

Allah

(saw) sent this Verse of "Perfect Purification" only and only for these 5 members of Ahlebait. Thus, they were known as "Ahlebait-e-Taharah" or the "Ahlebait-e-Nabuwah".

 

Therefore, correct Shia Aqeedah is this that:

 

 

1. Wives were only "Ahlebait-e-Muhammad"

 

2. But they were not "Ahlebait-e-Taharah/Nabuwah". This "Perfect Purification" is reserved by

Allah

(swt) only & only for these Five.

 

 

Challenge to Sunnies

Please bring a Single Sahih Tradition, where any of wife of Rasool (saw) ever claimed that she is part of Ahlebait-e-Taharah and has been "Perfectly Purified" in light of this Verse of Quran?

For the last 1400 years, you have not brought any such Tradition. But how strange is this that still you people claim that Wives are included in this Verse of "Perfect Purification".

Conclusion:

 

More than Sunnies, it is our Shia Community who needs to understand the REAL Issue. The Issue is not of wives being Ahlebait or Not, but the Issue is if wives are included in Ahlebait-e-Taharah or not, the Issue is if this Promise of being "Perfectly Purified" extends to "WHOLE Ahlebait of Muhammad" or this "Perfect Taharah" is limited only to these 5 special members of Ahlebait (as)".

First our own Shia community needs to understand this Issue and then Sunni brothers will follow. There is no Sunni (except for Nasibies like 'Ikramah, the slave of Ibn abbas) who claims that this verse of "Perfect Purification" is not revealed for these 5, but for wives.

Remember, Salman Farsi (alaihis Salam) was also part of Ahlebait of Muhammad as wives were, but he was also not included in "Ahlebait-e-Taharah" which was reserved only for those 5.

Two Different "Historical Events" in one Verse (according to Sunni Sahih Hadith)

Sunni brothers have only one argument (better to say "Conjecture"): "First part of Verse 33:33 refers to wives, therefore this 2nd part of Verse is also talking about wives"

But this argument is refuted by none other but "SAHIH" Sunni Ahadith themselves. These Sahih Sunni Ahadith themselves testify that:

 

 

1. There were "
Two
" Historical Events.

 

2. Both of them happened at "
Two
" different "
Timings
"

 

3. And both of them have no "
Connection
" with each other.

 

First Historical Incident (till first part of verse 33:33): In this incident, wives of Rasool (saw) made severe mistake and Allah (swt) threatening them. Quran telling us about this incident:

 

 

[
Shakir
33:28
]
O Prophet! say to your wives: If you desire this world's life and its adornment, then come, I will give you a provision and allow you to depart a goodly departing

 

[
Shakir
33:29
]
And if you desire

Allah

and His Messenger and the latter abode, then surely

Allah

has prepared for the doers of good among you a mighty reward.

 

[
Shakir
33:30
]
O wives of the prophet! whoever of you commits an open indecency, the punishment shall be increased to her doubly; and this IS easy to

Allah

.

 

[
Shakir
33:31
]
And whoever of you is obedient to

Allah

and His Messenger and does good, We will give to her her reward doubly, and We have prepared for her an honorable sustenance.

 

[
Shakir
33:32
]
O wives of the Prophet! you are not like any other of the women; If you will be on your guard, then be not soft in (your) speech, lest he in whose heart is a disease yearn; and speak a good word.

 

[
Shakir
33:33
(only First Part)
]
And stay in your houses and do not display your finery like the displaying of the ignorance of yore; and keep up prayer, and pay the poor-rate, and obey

Allah

and His Messenger.

 

There are many Sunni Ahadith which are telling about this Incident when these verses of Quran were revealed, which happened at certain "Time" when wives of Rasool (saw) demanded more Money and comfort of life.

2nd Historical Event (described in 2nd part of Verse 33:33): Sahih Sunni Hadith telling us that this is another "Historical Event", which happened at "another Time" and it has "No Connection" with the first Historical Event.

 

 

[
Shakir
33:33
(only Second Part)
]
....

Allah

only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying.

 

Here is the testimony of Sahih Sunni Hadith that this 2nd Part of Verse has nothing to do with the 1st part of Verse as both Parts are referring to TWO different Incidents, which happened at TWO different times and these TWO have no connections with each other.

 

 

Narrated Aisha:

 

 

One day the Prophet (PBUH&HF) came out afternoon wearing a black cloak (upper garment or gown; long coat), then al-Hasan Ibn Ali came and the Prophet accommodated him under the cloak, then al-Husain came and entered the cloak, then Fatimah came and the Prophet entered her under the cloak, then Ali came and the Prophet entered him to the cloak as well. Then the Prophet recited: "Verily

Allah

intends to keep off from you every kind of uncleanness O' People of the House (Ahlul-Bayt), and purify you a perfect purification (the last sentence of Verse 33:33)."

Sunni reference:

 

  • Sahih Muslim, Chapter of virtues of companions, section of the virtues of the Ahlul-Bayt of the Prophet (PBUH&HF), 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, Arabic version, v4, p1883, Tradition #61.

 

Challenges to Sunnies:

 

 

* Prove us that these are not TWO Different Historical Incidents, which did not happen at TWO different Times?

 

 

And if you accept the existence of these 2 Different Historical Incidents, then:

 

 

* Prove us (any Sahih Sunni Hadith) that 2nd Part of Verse 33:33 was revealed for Wives?

 

And if you could not prove it, then tell us how in world you are bringing this Argument (/Conjecture) for the last 14 Centuries that Wives are the Part of this 2nd Part of Verse and have been "Perfectly Purified" by Allah?

 

 

* Your own so called "Sahih Ahadith" are telling that both these Parts of same one Verse 33:33 were revealed for Two Different Incidents.

 

* Your own so called "Sahih Ahadith" are telling that from Verses 33:28 till 1st Part of Verse 33:33 were revealed for wives, where

Allah

(swt) threatening them for demanding worldly life.

 

*And then your own so called other "Sahih Hadith" are telling that 2nd Part of Verse 33:33 was revealed at Different Occasion, at Different Time, for Different Incident where 5 Special ones were collected under that Blanket and for them this 2nd part of Verse 33:33 was revealed.

 

 

So, either you stop claiming that 2nd part of verse 33:33 is revealed for wives. Or you should first DENY your so called "Sahih Ahadith" which are proving the opposite.

It is really funny and show the "Double Standards" that neither you deny your so called "Sahih Ahadith" nor you stop claiming that thing which is totally against your own "Sahih Ahadith".

one of the best posts on the subject by the sister

 

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7 hours ago, skamran110 said:

brother, I add the following:

The narrations by the wives of the prophets saww clarify that the Ahlul kissa are covered only in the verse of purification last part of 33;33 and no wife is included in it.

So the matter has been decided by Allah swt and the Prophet saww that no one can be included in the scope of the verse of purification except the progeny of the prophet saww. The verse 33;36 provides the evidence that :

And it behoves not a believing man and a believing woman that they should have any choice in their matter when Allah and His Apostle have decided a matter; and whoever disobeys Allah and His Apostle, he surely strays off a manifest straying.  (33:36)

so on the basis of all quoted above the claims that wives are covered in the scope of verses of purification are rejected.

 

 

I agree with this. I was avoiding using the hadith narrations because the new strategy is "only Quran". I guess they believe in "hasbona kitaballah".

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12 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

I agree with this. I was avoiding using the hadith narrations because the new strategy is "only Quran". I guess they believe in "hasbona kitaballah".

There has been another sea change other than the 'Quranists only' camp(too small to even talk about) and that is that the salafis especially now want authentication verified for ahadith from their books.

This destroys the notion of the sahah if you understand what it means, not that they did not have rijal and maani authentication before but that was the reserve of the very highly educated limited circle. 

So for debates and discussions on shiachat the ahadith are a must otherwise you only have one part of the thaqalain. Just do not become a prey to any ones false narrative. 

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