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beardedbaker

The Day of Hussain - obligations vs innovations

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Ayatullah Kamal Hayderi is going to get a lot of hate , back-stabbing and abuse from people who perform these rituals.

Sadly, culture, ego, family practises have caused some to even instigate major shia-shia divisions and abuse of ulema.

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The Seyed is quite pi**ed off with the current state of commemoration of 'the day of Hussain' (as is traditionally known, as opposed to the day of Karbala or Ashoura), and wanted with this brief lecture to re-iterate the authentic and proper means to remember this day, like any other 'day of Allah', as is quranically known. 

One of the quranic realities is the way in which Allah swt speaks in relation to things that have great importance or honour, like 'My house' or 'My soul' or 'My paradise'- neither of which has a physical manifestation, but in order to give them the high status and honour they deserve, He relates them to Himself. 

Therefore, when we come to the verse: We verily sent Moses with Our revelations, saying: Bring thy people forth from darkness unto light. And remind them of the days of Allah. Lo! therein are revelations for each steadfast, thankful (heart). [14:5] - we see here again that He has specific 'days' to Himself which have a special greatness and honour and meaning. The meaning of this special relationship is that on those days the greatness and magnificence of God is revealed, like the day of judgement for example. 

Another quranic foundation is that the Quran sets the general framework and leaves the specificities (like the physical manifestation of that general rule) to be identified in the narrations. An analogy can be made between the constitution of a country and the specific legislations that are agreed and put forth by various governments. Any laws that are passed cannot go against the general framework of the country's constitution. The same applies to the Quran - any narration that goes against the Quranic framework and general vision is null and void. 

So going back to the verse [14:5], if we can prove that 'the day of Hussain' is one of the 'days of Allah', then quranically speaking shouldn't we 'remind them of the days of Allah' and commemorate this day? We need to go to the widely accepted narrations to find out whether the Holy Prophet and Imams established this correlation or not.   

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38 minutes ago, uponthesunnah said:

Ayatullah Kamal Hayderi is going to get a lot of hate , back-stabbing and abuse from people who perform these rituals.

Sadly, culture, ego, family practises have caused some to even instigate major shia-shia divisions and abuse of ulema.

he's used it and doesn't bother him. the gloves are off this time. the sleeping dead in Najaf and Qom need to wake up and stop this retarded madness.

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والله تعبت وانا اشوف المشادات التي تصير بين الشيعة بخصوص هذا الموضوع. تعبت لسبب واحد: أني ما اعرف من الصح ومن الغلطان. لان في النهاية المنطق ما دايما له مكانه. وسبحان الله اليوم كنت أفكر بيني وبين نفسي: كيف ممكن أتوصل للحقيقة بخصوص هذا الموضوع؟ لان موضوع مهم وضروري نتوصل للحقيقة بغض النظر اني انا شخصيا ما أمارس التطبير لكن ضروري اعرف الحقيقة. وبعد ما شاهدت محاضرة الشيخ كمال احس بإرتياح لان الحقيقة أصبحت واضحة كوضوح الشمس وانا على يقين انه التطبير والسكاكين ما من سنة الأئمة. المشكلة انه حتى له توضع الأدلة أمامهم ما راح يقتنعوا لسببين : أولا كبريائهم ما تسمح انهم يعترفوا انهم غلطانين وثانيا صعب انهم يوقفوا لان الحين أصبحت عادة عندهم وأصبحت راسخة في عاداتهم وتقاليدهم 

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14 minutes ago, Pearl178 said:

والله تعبت وانا اشوف المشادات التي تصير بين الشيعة بخصوص هذا الموضوع. تعبت لسبب واحد: أني ما اعرف من الصح ومن الغلطان. لان في النهاية المنطق ما دايما له مكانه. وسبحان الله اليوم كنت أفكر بيني وبين نفسي: كيف ممكن أتوصل للحقيقة بخصوص هذا الموضوع؟ لان موضوع مهم وضروري نتوصل للحقيقة بغض النظر اني انا شخصيا ما أمارس التطبير لكن ضروري اعرف الحقيقة. وبعد ما شاهدت محاضرة الشيخ كمال احس بإرتياح لان الحقيقة أصبحت واضحة كوضوح الشمس وانا على يقين انه التطبير والسكاكين ما من سنة الأئمة. المشكلة انه حتى له توضع الأدلة أمامهم ما راح يقتنعوا لسببين : أولا كبريائهم ما تسمح انهم يعترفوا انهم غلطانين وثانيا صعب انهم يوقفوا لان الحين أصبحت عادة عندهم وأصبحت راسخة في عاداتهم وتقاليدهم 

بارك الله فيك اختي.خير ان شاء الله. احنا واجبنا انبين الحقيقة للملأ والباقي على الله سبحانه

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27 minutes ago, beardedbaker said:

he's used it and doesn't bother him. the gloves are off this time. the sleeping dead in Najaf and Qom need to wake up and stop this retarded madness.

May Allah bless you for your post explaining the video.

Any idea how long it would take for me to learn Fusah to the level required to directly understand him well?

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30 minutes ago, beardedbaker said:

The Seyed is quite pi**ed off with the current state of commemoration of 'the day of Hussain' (as is traditionally known, as opposed to the day of Karbala or Ashoura), and wanted with this brief lecture to re-iterate the authentic and proper means to remember this day, like any other 'day of Allah', as is quranically known. 

One of the quranic realities is the way in which Allah swt speaks in relation to things that have great importance or honour, like 'My house' or 'My soul' or 'My paradise'- neither of which has a physical manifestation, but in order to give them the high status and honour they deserve, He relates them to Himself. 

Therefore, when we come to the verse: We verily sent Moses with Our revelations, saying: Bring thy people forth from darkness unto light. And remind them of the days of Allah. Lo! therein are revelations for each steadfast, thankful (heart). [14:5] - we see here again that He has specific 'days' to Himself which have a special greatness and honour and meaning. The meaning of this special relationship is that on those days the greatness and magnificence of God is revealed, like the day of judgement for example. 

Another quranic foundation is that the Quran sets the general framework and leaves the specificities (like the physical manifestation of that general rule) to be identified in the narrations. An analogy can be made between the constitution of a country and the specific legislations that are agreed and put forth by various governments. Any laws that are passed cannot go against the general framework of the country's constitution. The same applies to the Quran - any narration that goes against the Quranic framework and general vision is null and void. 

So going back to the verse [14:5], if we can prove that 'the day of Hussain' is one of the 'days of Allah', then quranically speaking shouldn't we 'remind them of the days of Allah' and commemorate this day? We need to go to the widely accepted narrations to find out whether the Holy Prophet and Imams established this correlation or not.   

These narrations can be found in Sunni school's accepted sources of Musnad Ahmad and Musnad Abi Ya'la al Mousali. Do your research if you care enough. The Seyed has also written a book on the rise of Bani Ummaya, in which he has stated these narrations (download pdf here - from pg259 onwards)

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The question is then: are we permitted to add new ways of commemorating this day, over and above that what is mentioned in the widely accepted narrations (crying, beating the chest, etc)?

There are no narrations that permit any of those pathetic and shameful practices that we see (especially) in Iraq. 

It is down to the mujtahid to chose his methodology with regards to the physical manifestations of the general quranic guidelines: one is to follow the approach of limitation of practices as stated in the narrations, like salah. The Quran stated the obligation to pray, but the physical manifestation of what that prayer looked like was left to the Holy Prophet to show. And any innovation in practices is impermissible. The same would apply to the 'day of Hussein', since we consider it an act of worship, therefore the means to perform this act must come from accepted narrations. Therefore, any act that was not performed by the Holy Prophet and the Imams is null and void, an innovation and must be stopped. 

Some might say that we are permitted to chose the way we commemorate this day as we please, the same we we chose to perform some obligatory acts as we please, like the obligation to support your family financially, the specifics of which where not explained. This is a fallacy, since this example is for a personal matter, which has no impact on the wider muslim community and the image of Islam. When it comes to social matters, the rules are different. We need to bear in mind the wider school and the wider consequences when it comes to the day of Hussain. Therefore there are three conditions that must be met in order to establish a specific manifestation of a means to commemorate this day: 

1) it must be consistent and in harmony with the entire religious corpus of the school of Ahlul Bayt

2) it must be consistent and in harmony with the goals and purpose of the Husseini revolution 

3) it must be consistent and in harmony with the wider religious corpus and take into account the social and spatial-temporal aspects in the environment we live in.      

 

   

Edited by beardedbaker

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I'm not going to speak about whether these actions are correct or not, but the fact that people are using qiyas to come up with all sorts of arguments is ridiculous.

Comparing "Salat" to "mourning Al-Husayn".

You find that the same people do not even know the meaning of the word "bid'ah" is according to the Fuqaha. 

Edited by E.L King

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But the so-called 'Day of Husayn' or 'Day of whoever' don't have any really foundations, it just happens that in the lead up to 'Ashura, people tend to related the stories of certain people on certain days, and so days get called 'the day of 'Abbas' for example, but it is just something that people made up. So trying to tie these days to the Qur'an is a bit of a stretch.

It's like when people take this verse, and then say that the sha'a'ir of Husayn are the sha'a'ir of Allah, when in fact there is no basis to make this claim as 99% of these so called sha'a'ir are invented by men.

ذَٰلِكَ وَمَن يُعَظِّمْ شَعَائِرَ اللَّـهِ فَإِنَّهَا مِن تَقْوَى الْقُلُوبِ

That (shall be so); and whoever respects the signs of Allah, this surely is (the outcome) of the piety of hearts. (22:32)

 

 

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8 hours ago, E.L King said:

I'm not going to speak about whether these actions are correct or not, but the fact that people are using qiyas to come up with all sorts of arguments is ridiculous.

Comparing "Salat" to "mourning Al-Husayn".

You find that the same people do not even know the meaning of the word "bid'ah" is according to the Fuqaha. 

What are you talking about ? What qiyas? You obviously didn't understand the translation or original Arabic . Apologies for the confusion . Bai. 

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8 hours ago, Ali_Hussain said:

But the so-called 'Day of Husayn' or 'Day of whoever' don't have any really foundations, it just happens that in the lead up to 'Ashura, people tend to related the stories of certain people on certain days, and so days get called 'the day of 'Abbas' for example, but it is just something that people made up. So trying to tie these days to the Qur'an is a bit of a stretch.

It's like when people take this verse, and then say that the sha'a'ir of Husayn are the sha'a'ir of Allah, when in fact there is no basis to make this claim as 99% of these so called sha'a'ir are invented by men.

ذَٰلِكَ وَمَن يُعَظِّمْ شَعَائِرَ اللَّـهِ فَإِنَّهَا مِن تَقْوَى الْقُلُوبِ

That (shall be so); and whoever respects the signs of Allah, this surely is (the outcome) of the piety of hearts. (22:32)

 

 

You didn't understand either. Did you read the post? Read it again. Also read the narrated sources. 

That's why I don't like translations, it's either all or nothing. 

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1 hour ago, beardedbaker said:

What are you talking about ? What qiyas? You obviously didn't understand the translation or original Arabic . Apologies for the confusion . Bai. 

Lol. Original Arabic? There's no Arabic in this thread. If you're implying the videos, I haven't watched them yet.

Is it gonna be another unorthodox thing Sayyed Kamal says? 

Edited by E.L King

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I have two questions:

1) The three conditions he mentioned, did he come up with them by himself or are they mentioned in the books of the Fuqaha?

2) What does he say about the view of Sayyed Al-Khoei, who even though allowed tatbir, had said it is not a sha3eera?

Edited by E.L King

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13 hours ago, E.L King said:

I have two questions:

1) The three conditions he mentioned, did he come up with them by himself or are they mentioned in the books of the Fuqaha?

2) What does he say about the view of Sayyed Al-Khoei, who even though allowed tatbir, had said it is not a sha3eera?

Did Islamic research and ijtihad end with 'the Fuqaha ' , whoever is meant by them? 

Is he not allowed an opinion? Have you read any of his books? He's a marja you know. A proper one, not a mufti like his contemporaries. 

 

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2 minutes ago, beardedbaker said:

Did Islamic research and ijtihad end with 'the Fuqaha ' , whoever is meant by them? 

Is he not allowed an opinion? Have you read any of his books? He's a marja you know. A proper one, not a mufti like his contemporaries. 

 

I regard Ayatullah Kamal Hayderi as very sharp, very intelligent.

But i do need to look into this more.

What is his view of tatbir and self-flagellation?

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22 hours ago, uponthesunnah said:

I regard Ayatullah Kamal Hayderi as very sharp, very intelligent.

But i do need to look into this more.

What is his view of tatbir and self-flagellation?

If you didn't understand his stance from these videos, then . . .  I doubt you regarding him sharp and intelligent means anything . . . 

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57 minutes ago, beardedbaker said:

If you didn't understand his stance from these videos, then . . .  I doubt you regarding him sharp and intelligent means anything . . . 

Brother, i understand he must probably be against it, but the posts so far allude to that. What i was looking for are some specific statements:

1. Is he against only blood-letting or also chains ? 

I should have been clearer, but seeing he is now a marji, i would have liked some fatwahs.

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