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Qa'im

Imamate in the Quran

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Salam excellent article!

I use to always believe Talut [as] was not a Messenger, and would bring the same point, but recently having read ahadith about him, it seems he became a Prophet.  This is also perhaps stated in Quran when it says "These Messengers that we recite to you about...." after the mentioning Samuel, Talut, and Dawood....

This doesn't change it bring a proof of Imammate.

Edited by LinkZelda

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"I asked Abu 'AbdAllaah (as-Sadiq) (عليه السلام) about the words of Allaah (عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ): 'Believers, obey Allah, His Messenger, and your leaders (who possess Divine Authority). . . .' (4:59) "
 
The Imam said, 'This was sent from the heavens about `Ali ibn Abi Taalib, Al-Hasan and Al-Hussain (عليه السلام).' I then said, 'People say, "Why did He not specify Ali and his family by their names in the Book of Allaah (عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ)?'
 
"The Imam said, 'Say to them, "The command for prayer came to the Messenger of Allah but He has not specified (the number of the Rak'ats) for them as being three or four. It, in fact, was the Messenger of Allah who explained to them this matter. The command for Zakat (a form of income tax) came to the Messenger of Allah and there was no specific taxable number such as one Dirham on every forty Dirham. It was the Messenger of Allah who explained it for them. The command for Hajj came to the Messenger of Allah. It did not say walk seven times around the Ka'ba. It was the Messenger of Allah who explained it for them...."

Source: al-Kulayni in his al-Kafi, volume 1, pages 286–288, hadeeth #1

Grading: al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is SaHeeH (authentic) in his Mir'aat Al-`Uqool, volume 3, page 213

[Translation taken from former ShiaChat threads]

Edited by E.L King

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On 11/4/2016 at 6:19 PM, Qa'im said:

The Imam's authority is divinely mandated

"O you who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger and those of you who are in authority (ulil amri minkum); and if you have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to Allah and the messenger if you are (in truth) believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more seemly in the end." (4:59)

Notice how both the Messenger and the Wali al-Amr share the same "obey" (obey the messenger and those in authority). This expression means that the obedience we give to the Wali al-Amr must be the same as that which we give to the Messenger (s). The Messenger has more rights over us than we have over ourselves (33:6), so someone with that same authority over the Umma cannot simply be a ruler, or a scholar. Allah would not make us follow something unless it was failsafe, and always on His path, much like the Prophet (s). This leader would be the universal leader of the Umma, just as the Prophet was.

Assalam O Alaikum brother.

But this was not the belief, concept and point of view of Imam Ali  a.s.

Nahjul Balagha. Letter 53. An order to Malik al-Ashtar

وَارْدُدْ إِلَى الله وَرَسُولِهِ مَا يُضْلِعُكَ مِنَ الْخُطُوبِ، وَيَشْتَبِهُ عَلَيْكَ مِنَ الاْمُورِ، فَقَدْ قَالَ اللهُ سبحانه لِقَوْم أَحَبَّ إِرْشَادَهُمْ: (يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الاْمْرِ مِنْكُمْ فَإنْ تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْء  فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللهِ وَالرَّسُولِ)، فَالرَّدُّ إِلَى اللهِ: الاْخْذُ بِمُحْكَمِ كِتَابِهِ، وَالرَّدُّ إِلَى الرَّسُولِ: الاْخْذُ بِسُنَّتِهِ الْجَامِعةِ غَيْرِ الْمُفَرِّقَةِ.

Refer to Allah and His Prophet the affairs which worry you and matters  which appear confusing to you, because, addressing the people whom  Allah the Sublime, wishes to guide, He said:

O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Prophet and those vested  with authority from among you: and then if you quarrel about anything  refer it to Allah and the Prophet if you believe in Allah and in the  Last Day (of Judgement). . . (Qur'an, 4:59)

Referring to Allah means to act according to what is clear in His Book  and referring to the Prophet means to follow his unanimously agreed  Sunnah in regard to which there are no differences.


Imam Ali a.s could have said in case of any dispute refer to divinely appointed Imam that is to me. But he a.s did not say anything like this. Here Imam Ali a.s appointed Malik ashtar over egpyt so he was the ulil amr (authority over people of egypt) in this case and advice him to refer to Allah and to His Prophet s.a.w.w whenever you face any dispute.

You highlighted and emphasized only first part of ayah while ignored the other. Full, correct and practical explanation is there in Letter 53 of nahjul balagha.

May Allah guide all of us to true path of ahlebait. Ameen

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On 1/3/2017 at 8:07 AM, Fahad Sani said:

Assalam O Alaikum brother.

But this was not the belief, concept and point of view of Imam Ali  a.s.

Nahjul Balagha. Letter 53. An order to Malik al-Ashtar

وَارْدُدْ إِلَى الله وَرَسُولِهِ مَا يُضْلِعُكَ مِنَ الْخُطُوبِ، وَيَشْتَبِهُ عَلَيْكَ مِنَ الاْمُورِ، فَقَدْ قَالَ اللهُ سبحانه لِقَوْم أَحَبَّ إِرْشَادَهُمْ: (يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الاْمْرِ مِنْكُمْ فَإنْ تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْء  فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللهِ وَالرَّسُولِ)، فَالرَّدُّ إِلَى اللهِ: الاْخْذُ بِمُحْكَمِ كِتَابِهِ، وَالرَّدُّ إِلَى الرَّسُولِ: الاْخْذُ بِسُنَّتِهِ الْجَامِعةِ غَيْرِ الْمُفَرِّقَةِ.

Refer to Allah and His Prophet the affairs which worry you and matters  which appear confusing to you, because, addressing the people whom  Allah the Sublime, wishes to guide, He said:

O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Prophet and those vested  with authority from among you: and then if you quarrel about anything  refer it to Allah and the Prophet if you believe in Allah and in the  Last Day (of Judgement). . . (Qur'an, 4:59)

Referring to Allah means to act according to what is clear in His Book  and referring to the Prophet means to follow his unanimously agreed  Sunnah in regard to which there are no differences.


Imam Ali a.s could have said in case of any dispute refer to divinely appointed Imam that is to me. But he a.s did not say anything like this. Here Imam Ali a.s appointed Malik ashtar over egpyt so he was the ulil amr (authority over people of egypt) in this case and advice him to refer to Allah and to His Prophet s.a.w.w whenever you face any dispute.

You highlighted and emphasized only first part of ayah while ignored the other. Full, correct and practical explanation is there in Letter 53 of nahjul balagha.

May Allah guide all of us to true path of ahlebait. Ameen

Ulil amr would logically have authority over "All People" As does Allah swt and Rasulillah (pbuh@hf) have authority over all people, Furthermore, Malik ashter was still under Imam Ali (as) authority, if Malik ashter came across any disputes then he would had to refer back to Imam Ali (as) as he had authority over all people.

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On 1/3/2017 at 10:03 AM, power said:

Ulil amr would logically have authority over "All People" As does Allah swt and Rasulillah (pbuh@hf) have authority over all people, Furthermore, Malik ashter was still under Imam Ali (as) authority, if Malik ashter came across any disputes then he would had to refer back to Imam Ali (as) as he had authority over all people.

Right. Malik Akhtar was under authority of Imam Ali a.s. As all  governors are under the post of caliph. And Malik Ashtar being the  governor of egypt had authority over the people of egypt. In other words  we can say Imam Ali a.s was ulil  amr for Malik ashtar and Malik  ashtar was ulil amr for people of egypt. As per Nisa 59 ulil amr  minkum (those in authority amongst you over you).

But Imam Ali a.s didnt say this to Malik Ashtar. Indeed Imam Ali a.s  said in case of any dispute refer to Allah and to His Prophet s.a.w.w,  not to him. Exactly what is mentioned in Nisa 59.

Assumption is not a substitute of what is not clearly mentioned neither in Quran nor in letter 53. In this way anyone can assume anything.

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21 hours ago, Qa'im said:

There is no contradiction between what Nahj al-Balagha and Imam as-Sadiq have said about the verse. They are focusing on two different aspects of the verse. (1) The verse establishes the binding leadership of the wali al-amr, and (2) The verse establishes the Quran and Sunna as the ultimate authority in this religion. The Book and the Shari`a were completed with Prophet Muhammad (s), and we still return to the Quran and the Sunna as the ultimate authority in our religion. The Wali al-Amr's authority is justified through the Quran and the Sunna.

Where are words of Imam Jafar Sadiq a.s in the OP??

Thus it means the final and absolute authority is only for Allah and for  His Prophet s.a.w.w. While the obedience of ulil amr is not ultimate  or absolute, in other words obedience is conditional in case of ulil  amr. Thats why Allah said in the same verse "if you quarrel about  anything  refer it to Allah and the Prophet". There is no mention of referring to ulil amr neither in Quran nor in the words of Imam Ali a.s in  letter 53.

While you said the opposite in OP to what Allah and Imam Ali a.s  are saying.

You said:

On 11/4/2016 at 6:19 PM, Qa'im said:

"O you who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger and those of you who are in authority (ulil amri minkum); and if you have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to Allah and the messenger if you are (in truth) believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more seemly in the end." (4:59)

Notice how both the Messenger and the Wali al-Amr share the same "obey" (obey the messenger and those in authority). This expression means that the obedience we give to the Wali al-Amr must be the same as that which we give to the Messenger (s). The Messenger has more rights over us than we have over ourselves (33:6), so someone with that same authority over the Umma cannot simply be a ruler, or a scholar. Allah would not make us follow something unless it was failsafe, and always on His path, much like the Prophet (s). This leader would be the universal leader of the Umma, just as the Prophet was.


If obedience to ulil amr is same as to Prophet s.a.w.w as you have written then it should have been like this in Quran "and if you have a  dispute concerning any matter, refer it to Allah and the messenger and to ulil amr among you".

But this is not the case. Therefore obedience to ulil amr and to  Prophet s.a.w.w is not of same nature. Obedience to Prophet s.a.w.w is  absolute while to ulil amr its conditional. The condition which is also there in the same verse i.e case of dispute/quarrel.

Moreover you only highlighted and explained the first part of the verse and thus made a wrong conclusion.

 

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Here is the narration of Imam as-Sadiq, which is more established than the reference in Nahj al-Balagha:

A man asked Imam Ja`far as-Sadiq [a] about the verse, "Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you" (4:59). The Imam replied, "This was revealed regarding `Ali b. Abi Talib, al-Hasan, and a-Husayn." The man said, "The people say, 'Then why weren't `Ali and his Ahl al-Bayt mentioned by name in the Book of Allah?'" The Imam replied, "Say to them: The command for prayer was revealed to the Messenger of Allah (s), but Allah did not specifically mention [in the Quran] three or four units. It was the Messenger of Allah (s) who detailed that for them. The command to give alms was revealed to him, but He did not mention that it was applied to 1/40 dirhams. It was the Messenger of Allah (s) who detailed for them. The command for Hajj was revealed, but He does not say, 'Circle [the Ka`ba] seven times'. It was the Messenger of Allah (s) detailed that for them. He revealed, 'Obey Allah and obey the Messenger those in authority among you' (4:59), and it was revealed regarding `Ali, al-Hasan, and al-Husayn. The Messenger of Allah (s) said, regarding `Ali, 'Whoever takes me as a Master, then `Ali is his Master.' And he (s) said, 'I leave you with the Book of Allah and my Ahl al-Bayt, so I asked Allah to never separate them from one another until they return to me at the Pond [of Paradise], and He granted my prayer.' And he said, 'Do not lecture them, for they are more knowledgeable than you.' And he said, 'They will not lead you away from the gate of guidance, and they will not make you enter the gate of misguidance.' Had the Messenger of Allah (s) kept quiet, it would not be clear who his Ahl al-Bayt would be, and the dynasties would have claimed it (that title). But Allah revealed it in in a Book, clarifying it to His Prophet (s). 'Surely, Allah wishes to remove uncleanliness from you, Ahl al-Bayt, and purify you with a thorough purification.' (33:33)"  ( علي بن إبراهيم، عن محمد بن عيسى، عن يونس وعلي بن محمد، عن سهل ابن زياد أبي سعيد، عن محمد بن عيسى، عن يونس، عن ابن مسكان، عن أبي بصير قال سألت أبا عبد الله عليه السلام عن قول الله عز وجل: " أطيعوا الله وأطيعوا الرسول وأولي الامر منكم (2) " فقال: نزلت في علي بن أبي طالب والحسن والحسين عليهم السلام: فقلت له: إن الناس يقولون: فما له لم يسم عليا وأهل بيته عليهم السلام في كتاب الله عز و جل؟ قال: فقال: قولوا لهم: إن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله نزلت عليه الصلاة ولم يسم الله لهم ثلاثا ولا أربعا، حتى كان رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله هو الذي فسر ذلك لهم، ونزلت عليه الزكاة ولم يسم لهم من كل أربعين درهما درهم، حتى كان رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله هو الذي فسر ذلك لهم، ونزل الحج فلم يقل لهم: طوفوا اسبوعا حتى كان رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله هو الذي فسر ذلك لهم، ونزلت " أطيعوا الله وأطيعوا الرسول واولي الامر منكم " - ونزلت في علي والحسن والحسين - فقال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله: في علي: من كنت مولاه، فعلي مولاه، وقال صلى الله عليه وآله اوصيكم بكتاب الله وأهل بيتي، فإني سألت الله عز وجل أن لا يفرق بينهما حتى يوردهما علي الحوض، فأعطاني ذلك وقال: لا تعلموهم فهم أعلم منكم، وقال: إنهم لن يخرجوكم من باب هدى، ولن يدخلوكم في باب ضلالة، فلو سكت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله فلم يبين من أهل بيته، لادعاها آل فلان وآل فلان، لكن الله عز وجل أنزله في كتابة تصديقا لنبيه صلى الله عليه وآله " إنما يريد الله ليذهب عنكم الرجس أهل البيت ويطهركم تطهيرا (1) " )

Secondly, in the letter you referenced, Amir al-Mu'mineen is writing to Malik al-Ashtar, who would have known about the rights of the Wali al-Amr.

The Wali al-Amr uses the Quran and the Sunna as his foundation and his reference point, because that is the source of his authority. He does not only quote himself. So in terms of obedience, the Prophet and the Wali are the same, but in terms of nass, the Prophet is given additional fadl.

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7 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

Right. Malik Akhtar was under authority of Imam Ali a.s. As all  governors are under the post of caliph. And Malik Ashtar being the  governor of egypt had authority over the people of egypt. In other words  we can say Imam Ali a.s was ulil  amr for Malik ashtar and Malik  ashtar was ulil amr for people of egypt. As per Nisa 59 ulil amr  minkum (those in authority amongst you over you).

But Imam Ali a.s didnt say this to Malik Ashtar. Indeed Imam Ali a.s  said in case of any dispute refer to Allah and to His Prophet s.a.w.w,  not to him. Exactly what is mentioned in Nisa 59.

Assumption is not a substitute of what is not clearly mentioned neither in Quran nor in letter 53. In this way anyone can assume anything.

Nope! Malik Ashter wasnt ulil amr of Egypt, he was only a governor of Egypt nothing more than that. Now, if we exam the verse of the Quran logically then conclusion is very simple. 

"O you who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger and those of you who are in authority"

It is pretty much clear in the above verse, those who are vested in authority, must have authority "OVER ALL RELIGION AND PEOPLE" I don't see there is any stipulation in the verse which states categorically that : Ulil amr can only have part of Authority over people! The verse is stating: O you who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger,  It is referring to "ALL BELIEVERS" and those who are vested with authority would also have the obedience all people (believers) Where in case of Malik ashter, he did not have the obedience of all believers did he  now!  

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On 1/4/2017 at 11:30 AM, Qa'im said:

Here is the narration of Imam as-Sadiq, which is more established than the reference in Nahj al-Balagha:

A man asked Imam Ja`far as-Sadiq [a] about the verse, "Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you" (4:59). The Imam replied, "This was revealed regarding `Ali b. Abi Talib, al-Hasan, and a-Husayn." The man said, "The people say, 'Then why weren't `Ali and his Ahl al-Bayt mentioned by name in the Book of Allah?'" The Imam replied, "Say to them: The command for prayer was revealed to the Messenger of Allah (s), but Allah did not specifically mention [in the Quran] three or four units. It was the Messenger of Allah (s) who detailed that for them. The command to give alms was revealed to him, but He did not mention that it was applied to 1/40 dirhams. It was the Messenger of Allah (s) who detailed for them. The command for Hajj was revealed, but He does not say, 'Circle [the Ka`ba] seven times'. It was the Messenger of Allah (s) detailed that for them. He revealed, 'Obey Allah and obey the Messenger those in authority among you' (4:59), and it was revealed regarding `Ali, al-Hasan, and al-Husayn. The Messenger of Allah (s) said, regarding `Ali, 'Whoever takes me as a Master, then `Ali is his Master.' And he (s) said, 'I leave you with the Book of Allah and my Ahl al-Bayt, so I asked Allah to never separate them from one another until they return to me at the Pond [of Paradise], and He granted my prayer.' And he said, 'Do not lecture them, for they are more knowledgeable than you.' And he said, 'They will not lead you away from the gate of guidance, and they will not make you enter the gate of misguidance.' Had the Messenger of Allah (s) kept quiet, it would not be clear who his Ahl al-Bayt would be, and the dynasties would have claimed it (that title). But Allah revealed it in in a Book, clarifying it to His Prophet (s). 'Surely, Allah wishes to remove uncleanliness from you, Ahl al-Bayt, and purify you with a thorough purification.' (33:33)"  ( علي بن إبراهيم، عن محمد بن عيسى، عن يونس وعلي بن محمد، عن سهل ابن زياد أبي سعيد، عن محمد بن عيسى، عن يونس، عن ابن مسكان، عن أبي بصير قال سألت أبا عبد الله عليه السلام عن قول الله عز وجل: " أطيعوا الله وأطيعوا الرسول وأولي الامر منكم (2) " فقال: نزلت في علي بن أبي طالب والحسن والحسين عليهم السلام: فقلت له: إن الناس يقولون: فما له لم يسم عليا وأهل بيته عليهم السلام في كتاب الله عز و جل؟ قال: فقال: قولوا لهم: إن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله نزلت عليه الصلاة ولم يسم الله لهم ثلاثا ولا أربعا، حتى كان رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله هو الذي فسر ذلك لهم، ونزلت عليه الزكاة ولم يسم لهم من كل أربعين درهما درهم، حتى كان رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله هو الذي فسر ذلك لهم، ونزل الحج فلم يقل لهم: طوفوا اسبوعا حتى كان رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله هو الذي فسر ذلك لهم، ونزلت " أطيعوا الله وأطيعوا الرسول واولي الامر منكم " - ونزلت في علي والحسن والحسين - فقال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله: في علي: من كنت مولاه، فعلي مولاه، وقال صلى الله عليه وآله اوصيكم بكتاب الله وأهل بيتي، فإني سألت الله عز وجل أن لا يفرق بينهما حتى يوردهما علي الحوض، فأعطاني ذلك وقال: لا تعلموهم فهم أعلم منكم، وقال: إنهم لن يخرجوكم من باب هدى، ولن يدخلوكم في باب ضلالة، فلو سكت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله فلم يبين من أهل بيته، لادعاها آل فلان وآل فلان، لكن الله عز وجل أنزله في كتابة تصديقا لنبيه صلى الله عليه وآله " إنما يريد الله ليذهب عنكم الرجس أهل البيت ويطهركم تطهيرا (1) " )

Secondly, in the letter you referenced, Amir al-Mu'mineen is writing to Malik al-Ashtar, who would have known about the rights of the Wali al-Amr.

The Wali al-Amr uses the Quran and the Sunna as his foundation and his reference point, because that is the source of his authority. He does not only quote himself. So in terms of obedience, the Prophet and the Wali are the same, but in terms of nass, the Prophet is given additional fadl.

How it is more established?

It also focuses only on the first part of verse. How can you understand a verse properly if you neglect rest of it. Then obviously you will make wrong conclusions. I also doubt the authenticity of this narration. Because  the analogy mentioned there is not valid. So I can not attribute such  words to Imam Jafar Sadiq a.s.

Invalid because Quran established clear argument regarding the principle of the  prayers, saum, hajj etc. There are hundreds of verses on these topics.  Is there similar argument for principle of Imamate/caliphate in Quran?  No. There is'nt. Baqrah 124, Maida 55, Nisa 59 etc are not explicit  verses from which principle of imamate can be deduced. Such verses can  be interpreted in many ways. A clear argument and indisputable  evidence has not been established on the principle of Imamate.

Moreover Prayer, Hajj etc are matters of Furu while Imamate is usul e  deen. Analogy will be valid only when you compare one usul to another.  Here you are comparing apples to oranges and making wrong conclusions.  Read Kitab Al-kafi Prayer and Hajj are mentioned under Furu e din  section while Imamate is Usul e din.

Right, who would have known about the rights of wali amr than Imam Ali a.s himself. But as you have seen in nahjul balagha he never attributed such right to himself in the way as you are explaining.

Therefore, such verse can not be used as a nass for imamate.

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On 1/4/2017 at 11:35 AM, power said:

Nope! Malik Ashter wasnt ulil amr of Egypt, he was only a governor of Egypt nothing more than that. Now, if we exam the verse of the Quran logically then conclusion is very simple. 

"O you who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger and those of you who are in authority"

It is pretty much clear in the above verse, those who are vested in authority, must have authority "OVER ALL RELIGION AND PEOPLE" I don't see there is any stipulation in the verse which states categorically that : Ulil amr can only have part of Authority over people! The verse is stating: O you who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger,  It is referring to "ALL BELIEVERS" and those who are vested with authority would also have the obedience all people (believers) Where in case of Malik ashter, he did not have the obedience of all believers did he  now!  

In arabic we have word Ulil amr (those in authority) and in english we can call it governor or minister etc. One who governs or one whose job is to implement the order (in arabic amr). Governor of egypt had  authority over only people of egypt. While the governor himself was  under the order of caliph.

Again you are neglecting the rest part of ayah and emphasizing on the  part which is even not mentioned there "OVER ALL RELIGION AND PEOPLE".

If Ali a.s considered himself to be a divinely appointed ulil amr/Imam  whose Job is to guide people and solve issues, then He a.s would have said Malik Ashtar to consult him in cases of dispute.

And today even Maula Ali a.s is not here or have any authority over  people i.e today he can not give any orders and implement them. Then  who is ulil amr today? Brother Qaim has shared a narration which says  this verse was revealed for Imam Ali a.s, Hassan a.s and Hussain a.s. It also does not include rest of the Imams.

Its also not mentioned in the verse that to be an ulil amr you have to be infallible. This was also the understanding of many esteemed shia scholars like  Ayatullah Muhammad Baqir al-Sadr who was one of the main supporter of  Khomieni.

iqtisaduna-baqir-alsadr-01.png

Download the book here: http://shiamultimedia.com/englishbooks4.html

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23 minutes ago, Fahad Sani said:

How it is more established?

It also focuses only on the first part of verse. How can you understand a verse properly if you neglect rest of it. Then obviously you will make wrong conclusions. I also doubt the authenticity of this narration. Because  the analogy mentioned there is not valid. So I can not attribute such  words to Imam Jafar Sadiq a.s.

Invalid because Quran established clear argument regarding the principle of the  prayers, saum, hajj etc. There are hundreds of verses on these topics.  Is there similar argument for principle of Imamate/caliphate in Quran?  No. There is'nt. Baqrah 124, Maida 55, Nisa 59 etc are not explicit  verses from which principle of imamate can be deduced. Such verses can  be interpreted in many ways. A clear argument and indisputable  evidence has not been established on the principle of Imamate.

Moreover Prayer, Hajj etc are matters of Furu while Imamate is usul e  deen. Analogy will be valid only when you compare one usul to another.  Here you are comparing apples to oranges and making wrong conclusions.  Read Kitab Al-kafi Prayer and Hajj are mentioned under Furu e din  section while Imamate is Usul e din.

Right, who would have known about the rights of wali amr than Imam Ali a.s himself. But as you have seen in nahjul balagha he never attributed such right to himself in the way as you are explaining.

Therefore, such verse can not be used as a nass for imamate.

The arrangement of 'furu' and 'usul' is not mentioned in the Hadiths. It is a scholarly arrangement.

And also, denial of Salat, which is part of the Furu, is kufr (without confusion and jahl). Same thing for Hajj, Sawm and other Arkan.

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16 hours ago, E.L King said:

The arrangement of 'furu' and 'usul' is not mentioned in the Hadiths. It is a scholarly arrangement.

And also, denial of Salat, which is part of the Furu, is kufr (without confusion and jahl). Same thing for Hajj, Sawm and other Arkan.

Yes brother I know this.

Main point is that prayer, hajj etc are furu e din while divine imamate is usul e din. And those furu e din plus many of their rules are very clearly mentioned in Quran in much detail. Even there are some dedicated surahs on such furus e.g Surah Hajj, Surah Jumah etc. Based on that much detail and clear explicit principles/arguments on such furus we refer to ahadith for more details. While the same is not true for divine imamate. Thus comparison is not valid between the two.

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On 1/6/2017 at 10:54 AM, Fahad Sani said:

Yes brother I know this.

Main point is that prayer, hajj etc are furu e din while divine imamate is usul e din. And those furu e din plus many of their rules are very clearly mentioned in Quran in much detail. Even there are some dedicated surahs on such furus e.g Surah Hajj, Surah Jumah etc. Based on that much detail and clear explicit principles/arguments on such furus we refer to ahadith for more details. While the same is not true for divine imamate. Thus comparison is not valid between the two.

And what I am saying is the application of kufr is on the same level here, someone who denies the Furu knowingly is no different to someone who denied the Usul knowingly, both result in kufr.

I am not here to discuss the Hadith which brother Qa'im brought forth, that is his discussion, I am merely speaking about this specific topic.

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12 hours ago, Hassan- said:

@Student_of_Deen what is your opinion on this? Read Qa'ims post.

What can I say brother. I can debate his interpretation/claim but it will lead to very long time and energy consuming but most probably inclusive discussion. 

The real question is if Imamate was really a Pillar of Islam (without which a person cannot become Muslim) then why isn`t it explicitly mentioned even once throughout the Qu`ran ? We find other pillars explicitly mentioned several times but we don`t find the belief in divinely appointed Imams anywhere in the Book of Allah. 

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Check/Verify/clarify  his/her understanding of Prophethood. Before getting into to Imamate discussion.

If he/she repeats the slogan of the Tragedy of Thursday, Book is enough for us. Which meant Thank you very much, we will take it(The Governance of the people and the Authority to interpret the book ) from here.

He/she does not understand the concept of Prophethood/ nor the Status/Authority of the Prophet. Meaning does not properly understand Tawheed.

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Quote

“وَ الله وَلِيُّ الْمُوْمِنينَ

Allah is the Wali of the Faithful.

We have pondered over the verses that have the word Wali or Walis in them and have studied them all briefly. We have observed that God is Islamic Society's Wali, there is no helper for the faithful other than God and God should be the Ruler over all affairs of mankind is a subject that is consistently upheld in the Glorious Qur'an.

The meanings may be confusing to some people and we want to remind them that our discussion is not about Lord of the Worlds' Innate Rule i.e., Rule by Creation. It is a fact that the Lord manages the movement of the earth and the skies with His Controlling Will. Our talk relates to the fact that the laws in the peoples' lives and the individual and the community relationships in the Islamic society should be based on the Commandments from God. In other words the legal Ruler of the Islamic and Qur'anic society under the Islamic system and that of Imam Ali could only be God and only God.

Now a question arises, "what is meant by the Ruler is God?"

The Sublime Lord is not going to come to the people to implement His commandments.

Furthermore, only a human being can rule over other humans. It is vital that the control of people's affairs should be in the hands of a person. However, when we talk about a person, it does not imply that we are emphasizing a single individual and negating plural leadership. What we are saying is that there is a need for an individual who can take the reins of people's affairs in his hands, otherwise, if there is law in a society - it may even be God's law - but there is no commander, ruler or a committee; in short, if there is no administrator to implement the law in a human society, its systems will not function.

Who can such an individual be?

Who is that individual or individuals with the right to rule over the society; who have been recognized as the Wali of the society; who have to take the responsibility of Wilayat.

There have been several answers to this question. Historical facts also give several answers.

Some have said, اَلْمُلْکُ لَمِنْ غَلَب - whoever takes charge will be the ruler of the state. In other words, rule of the jungle. Some have stated whoever is shrewd deserves to rule. Others have decreed one who has support of people should rule. Still others have declared one who belongs to a certain tribe is eligible to rule. Some other people have expressed other logic and ideas.

The religion and school of thought has answered,

اِنَّمَا وَلِيُّکُمُ الله وَ رَسُوْلُہ

verily Allah and His Prophet are your Walis.

So practically speaking the one who has been given the responsibility of enforcing the law and enjoining good and forbidding evil in the society is the Prophet. So when a Prophet arrives in a society, there is no room for anyone else to rule in his presence. Prophet is the one who should have the power in the society.

However, when the Prophet passes away just like others, who will be the next ruler?

The Qur'anic verse responds, وَالَّذِيْنَ ٰامَنُو - the believers are your walis.

What believers?

Can every faithful who believes in the religion and the school of thought be the Wali and the ruler of the Islamic society? In this situation there will be as many rulers as the believers.

The Qur'anic verse in addition to identifying a known and appointed individual according to legislation as the rightful ruler, rationalizes the selection and provides a measure. It says, وَالَّذِيْنَ ٰامَنُو - those who believe. And who really believe. These words are for those who have validated their belief through action. So وَالَّذِيْنَ ٰامَنُو - the first condition is that they are truly believers. There are other conditions too. الَّذِيْنَ يُقِيْمُوْنَ الصَّلٰوۃَ - those who establish prayer. It does not say, "those who pray." It is one thing to pray and another to establish prayer. If the objective was to just pray, then يصلّون - pray would have been a short message. Establishing prayer in a society means that the soul of the prayer in the society is alive; praying is common in the society. And you know that praying society implies a society in which remembrance of God is present in all its corners.

You know that in a society that is filled with remembrance of God, no crime or evil happens. In such a society the human values are not debased. A society that has all its members remembering God has its compass pointed towards God and all peoples' deeds are for God.

The only reason for the presence of evil in a society and bowing to tyranny and oppression is forgetting God. A society in which God is remembered, has its ruler like Ali Ibn Abi Talib who does not oppress, rather eradicates oppression. It has commoners like Abu Dharr Ghaffari who do not bow to subjugation in spite of physical abuse, deportation, terrorization and helplessness. They do not leave the path of God. This is a society that remembers God. This is a society where prayer is established. A believer who establishes prayer in the society, i.e, directs the society towards God and fosters remembrance of God in the society is among الَّذِيْنَ يُقِيْمُوْنَ الصَّلٰوۃَ -those who establish prayer.

The discourse does not stop here. Next وَ يُوتُوْنَ الزَّکٰوۃَ - they pay alms; they spend in the way of Allah; they distribute wealth justly. Then He says, وَ ہُمْ رَاکِعُوْنَ - in the state of bowing (pay alms). This is an allusion towards a special event and an anecdote. Some commentators say that وَ ہُمْ رَاکِعُوْنَ - means that these people are always kneeling and it does not refer to any special incident.

However, knowledge of Arabic language discards this conjecture and tells us that this phrase means that someone likes equality so much; he is so eager to give in the way of God; it pains him so much to see poverty and a needy that he just cannot wait to finish his prayer. This person is so intensely inclined towards spending in the way of God and he is so involved in this activity that he just cannot wait; has no patience. When he looks at a poor person, he sees a picture that is not appreciated by God and he himself does not like it; at that moment all he has is a ring, so he just takes it off in the state of prayer and hands it over to the needy. This is a known historical incident that occurred in the hands of the Commander of the believers, Imam Ali: while he was praying, a needy person came and the Imam gave him his ring, at this point this verse was revealed.

So as you observed, this verse is hinting towards appointing Ali Ibn Abi Talib as the Wali. It is not doing it the same way as some individuals in history were forced upon people. As an example, when Mu’awiyyah wants to appoint his son as his successor, he says, "My successor is my son and he is going to rule after me." The sublime Lord is not appointing the successor of the Prophet the same way. However, since the qualities in a head of the government - total faith in God, establishment of prayer and the fondness for charity to the extent of forgetting oneself - are found in Imam Ali Ibn Abi Talib, the magnificent Lord, while selecting the Imam as the Caliph, is explaining the yardstick and the wisdom behind the criterion for the caliphate. On these grounds the Wali in Islam is an individual sent by God and chosen by God.

The concept is that according to the makeup of this world no one individual has the right to rule over another individual and the only entity that has this right is God; so He can delegate this right to someone based on what is good for the people. And we know that God's work is for the welfare of human beings and not based on force. So He appoints and we should accept His appointments.

The Lord of the worlds appoints the Prophet and the Imams. He also defines certain characteristics for the rulers to come after the Imams and says that those who bear these qualities will be the rulers of Islamic society after the infallible Imams. So He appoints Walis. He Himself is a Wali; his Prophet is a Wali and the twelve Imams coming after the Prophet are Walis. The Imams have been appointed from the family of the Prophet and their count is twelve. For later time periods those who meet the specific criteria have been appointed as rulers.

This was one verse that we described for you. There are other verses in Glorious Qur'an, some of them we have referred to in our speeches and the others you should look for yourselves. There are scores of such verses.

Islam underscores the fact that the reign of people should not be in the hands of such people who would push the ordinary people into hell.”

http://www.al-islam.org/wilayat-guardianship-ayatullah-sayyid-ali-khamenei/speech-4-practical-establishment-wilayat#different-aspects-wilayat

 

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41 minutes ago, King said:

The fact that you even have to goto such lengths to establish imamat as a core and foundational concept makes little sense.

I suppose there's a difference between comprehensive arguments and brevity. I could have simply presented hadith al-ghadeer, hadith al-thaqalayn, and hadith of the twelve successors, and stated that Shiism has the most natural explanations to these three events. But some people want more detailed arguments, ones that are foolproof, and so I based my argument on muhkam ayat of the Quran that have little wiggle room.

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On 1/4/2017 at 7:20 PM, Fahad Sani said:

Thus it means the final and absolute authority is only for Allah and for  His Prophet s.a.w.w. While the obedience of ulil amr is not ultimate  or absolute, in other words obedience is conditional in case of ulil  amr. Thats why Allah said in the same verse "if you quarrel about  anything  refer it to Allah and the Prophet".

if you think, we can dispute/quarrel with Ulil Amri, let's ponder about this verse ( a very clear cut command _not_ to dispute/quarrel).
 

[Shakir 8:46] And obey Allah and His Messenger and do not quarrel for then you will be weak in hearts and your power will depart, and be patient; surely Allah is with the patient.

keeping the above verse in mind, it's very obvious to me these 2 following statements mean not the same thing:

1. then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger [4:59] --> implying we may dispute/disagree, though this contradicts verse [8:46]

2. then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; [4:59] -->this could only mean a rebuke to those among "believers" who fit the description of verse [4:60].

[Shakir 4:60] Have you not seen those who assert that they believe in what has been revealed to you and what was revealed before you? They desire to summon one another to the judgment of the Shaitan, though they were commanded to deny him, and the Shaitan desires to lead them astray into a remote error.
 

with respect to [4:59], true believers will say "we hear and we obey" but asked the Prophet "who are these ulil amri?". the not-so-true believers will doubt if this command is from Allah).

i see some truth in the statement: quraish hated to see prophethood and caliphate confined to one family only.

some later on people takwil obedience to ulil amri is conditional so that it fits well with the kingship of umayyads and abbassiyads.

so ulil amri is not your everyday men charged with authority.

 

Ali Bin Ibrahim, from his father, from Ibn Abu Umeyr, from Uman Bin Azina, from Bureyd Bin Muawiya who said,

Abu Ja’far asws recited “[4:59] O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, and to the Guardian asws of the Command among you (Ul-Al-Amr)”.

Then said: ‘How can He azwj Command for their asws obedience and then allow them (the people) to dispute with them asws . But rather, He azwj has Said that to the Commanded ones when He azwj Said to them (the people): “Obey Allah and obey the Rasool”. 119

119 Al Kafi – H 14660

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Well done brother @Qa'im, may the Almighty Lord increases your toufeqaat. 

Surah Al-Qasas, Verse 68:
وَرَبُّكَ يَخْلُقُ مَا يَشَاءُ وَيَخْتَارُ مَا كَانَ لَهُمُ الْخِيَرَةُ سُبْحَانَ اللَّهِ وَتَعَالَىٰ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ

And your Lord creates and chooses whom He pleases; to choose is not theirs; glory be to Allah, and exalted be He above what they associate (with Him).
(English - Shakir)

 

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