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In the Name of God بسم الله
Ali Abbas_110

Debate on self-harm(the common method of azadari)

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Assalamu alaikum. How do i counter this fault put up by sunni's , "it is mentioned in the quran that self-harm is haraam"? How do i prove them with a satisfying reason behind the practice of spilling of our blood for the sake of azadari to be right? I know we have ample of reasons, example:-
1) owais al qarrani's sacrifice of teeth as an expression of grief for rasoolallah.
2) prophet yaqoob's blinding of himself caused by grieving for his son prophet yusuf.
3) according to a hadeeth of imam jaffer al sadiq, it is said that, "for hussain, dont just cry, yell, dont just yell, scream, dont just scream, choke!"
-All of these, still do not give a stable reason and does not prove our practice of qamazani and other blood-spilling methods to be right on account of the self-harm verse of quran.
-And one more thing regarding owais al qarani. 
Rasoolallah's no objection on owais al qarani does not justify appropriately as what he meant about his words, " I can smell the fragrance of jannah from yemen." does not explain that he had no objection on owais's actions of breaking his teeth due to grief. Perhaps, he appreciated him for his obedience towards his mother. Therefore it simply cannot justify these practices against the verses of quran. 
Sunni's say that anything mentioned in the quran to be haraam, is haraam in all aspects, no matter what the purpose may it be or in what way it is being done. Anybody who doesn't act according to the verses of quran or acts on opposing to what is said in the quran are doing haraam. If prophet Muhammed(s.a.w)  would have justified the action by his words, only then it could be considered as legally accepted by islam. 
    I request you, please do work on this issue and help me out.

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17 minutes ago, Ali Abbas_110 said:

Assalamu alaikum. How do i counter this fault put up by sunni's , "it is mentioned in the quran that self-harm is haraam"? How do i prove them with a satisfying reason behind the practice of spilling of our blood for the sake of azadari to be right? I know we have ample of reasons, example:-
1) owais al qarrani's sacrifice of teeth as an expression of grief for rasoolallah.
2) prophet yaqoob's blinding of himself caused by grieving for his son prophet yusuf.
3) according to a hadeeth of imam jaffer al sadiq, it is said that, "for hussain, dont just cry, yell, dont just yell, scream, dont just scream, choke!"
-All of these, still do not give a stable reason and does not prove our practice of qamazani and other blood-spilling methods to be right on account of the self-harm verse of quran.
-And one more thing regarding owais al qarani. 
Rasoolallah's no objection on owais al qarani does not justify appropriately as what he meant about his words, " I can smell the fragrance of jannah from yemen." does not explain that he had no objection on owais's actions of breaking his teeth due to grief. Perhaps, he appreciated him for his obedience towards his mother. Therefore it simply cannot justify these practices against the verses of quran. 
Sunni's say that anything mentioned in the quran to be haraam, is haraam in all aspects, no matter what the purpose may it be or in what way it is being done. Anybody who doesn't act according to the verses of quran or acts on opposing to what is said in the quran are doing haraam. If prophet Muhammed(s.a.w)  would have justified the action by his words, only then it could be considered as legally accepted by islam. 
    I request you, please do work on this issue and help me out.

May Allahs mercy be upon all azadar, and may they earn the duas of Sayeda Tahira (SA)

a better argument is to say that modern forms of zanjeer (with or without blades) and tatbir/ qamma zani were not present at the times of the Aimmah Masumeen (as).

All things are permissible unless specifically forbidden by one of the Aimmah (as), so for modern forms of zanjeer/ tatbir we refer to scholars to determine whether or not they are "acceptable" levels of self harm within our sharia. 

some marjas are very supporting of tatbir/qamma and zanjeer (with or without blades) such as sheikh basheer hussain najafi, sayed sadeq rouhani, sayed sadeq shirazi, sheikh vahid khorasani, sayed al hakeem. some do not take a stance in any direction (like sayed sistani) and some are against it (like sayed khamenei and the pro WF mujtahids in Iran)

basically no matter if you want to do it or not, there is support for any position you take. its probably not a good idea to justify it using things like hazrat uwais al qarni as this riwayat is not found in shia hadith, its a modern form of azadari so it needs modern answers. 

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20 minutes ago, A true Sunni said:

Can you clarify exactly what you mean by self harm. There are the 2 distinct types of ritual.

1) Crying , Matam with hands, poetry, Majalis

2) Blood shedding rituals

Can you clarify what you are talking about 

i am confident of myself being clear as i have mentioned about self-harm to act of blood-shedding/blood-spilling. it may be practiced in many different ways like beating on the chest with blades, tatbeer(qamazani) , hitting on the backs with sharp blades attached to chains, etc.

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5 minutes ago, Ali Abbas_110 said:

i am confident of myself being clear as i have mentioned about self-harm to act of blood-shedding/blood-spilling. it may be practiced in many different ways like beating on the chest with blades, tatbeer(qamazani) , hitting on the backs with sharp blades attached to chains, etc.

when it comes to the umar worshipping cult, I can guarantee that no matter what you argue, they will never understand. if they cannot even get their bakri minds around something as obvious as wilayat, what can we expect of them when it comes to things like zanjeer and qamma?

just say to them that there are levels of knowledge, and they cannot understand mourning Imam Hussain (as) (in whatever form it takes) until they understand that history did not end at the prophets (S) death. Some shia do tatbir/zanjeer, some do not, its not mandatory and it only happens maybe once or twice a year. 

lead the conversation behind why we do azadari, instead of what form of azadari. teach them about yazeed la'een. about saqifa. about muawiyyah and ammi jaan aisha and everything else. 

 

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16 minutes ago, Ali Abbas_110 said:

i am confident of myself being clear as i have mentioned about self-harm to act of blood-shedding/blood-spilling. it may be practiced in many different ways like beating on the chest with blades, tatbeer(qamazani) , hitting on the backs with sharp blades attached to chains, etc.

Actually you weren't clear at all that's why I asked.

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the words of Allah are the words of quran, and the words of quran are the words of the Infallibles. If you agree on this, then neither did any of the infallibles give any kind of supportive indication on our modern practices of azadari (blood-shedding). Indeed, it is something forbidden by the Holy Quran. Thus, ends the point of the argument.

               ------ as said by the Sunni with whom i was debating with.

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40 minutes ago, DigitalUmmah said:

May Allahs mercy be upon all azadar, and may they earn the duas of Sayeda Tahira (SA)

a better argument is to say that modern forms of zanjeer (with or without blades) and tatbir/ qamma zani were not present at the times of the Aimmah Masumeen (as).

All things are permissible unless specifically forbidden by one of the Aimmah (as), so for modern forms of zanjeer/ tatbir we refer to scholars to determine whether or not they are "acceptable" levels of self harm within our sharia. 

some marjas are very supporting of tatbir/qamma and zanjeer (with or without blades) such as sheikh basheer hussain najafi, sayed sadeq rouhani, sayed sadeq shirazi, sheikh vahid khorasani, sayed al hakeem. some do not take a stance in any direction (like sayed sistani) and some are against it (like sayed khamenei and the pro WF mujtahids in Iran)

basically no matter if you want to do it or not, there is support for any position you take. its probably not a good idea to justify it using things like hazrat uwais al qarni as this riwayat is not found in shia hadith, its a modern form of azadari so it needs modern answers. 

the words of Allah are the words of quran, and the words of quran are the words of the Infallibles. If you agree on this, then neither did any of the infallibles give any kind of supportive indication on our modern practices of azadari (blood-shedding). Indeed, it is something forbidden by the Holy Quran. Thus, ends the point of the argument.

               ------ as said by the Sunni with whom i was debating with.

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21 minutes ago, A true Sunni said:

Actually you weren't clear at all that's why I asked.

by the way, it is no "ritual". its just an expression of immense grief that rises in a human being when he remembers the sorrows and horrors of their most beloved(Ahlulbayt). 

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6 minutes ago, A true Sunni said:

I am not here to debate you . 

when did i say that you are here to debate me? I just answered to the question you asked regarding the representation of my thread. And after that, i just clarified you misconception on 'blood-shedding as a ritual'. That's it. This is no debate, this thread is just a discussion on a  doubt which i perceived after a debate with some person.

Edited by Ali Abbas_110

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12 minutes ago, Ali Abbas_110 said:

when did i say that you are here to debate me? I just answered to the question you asked regarding the representation of my thread. And after that, i just clarified you misconception on 'blood-shedding as a ritual'. That's it. This is no debate, this thread is just a discussion on a  doubt which i perceived after a debate with some person.

Its my polite way of saying I disagree with you over the term 'ritual' but don't wish to hijack your thread. You have a question let others answer it

Edited by A true Sunni

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