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ShiaMan14

Bloodletting: United We Stand

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This question is for everyone but specifically @DigitalUmmah     @Lover of Ahlulbait (ams)     @Spiritual   :

We have seen several threads that have been started by people who are vehemently against the practice of bloodletting. It is a very divisive issue in our community when it does not have to be. 

A lot of other members have also commented on those threads and gone anywhere from ridiculing them to rejecting them outrightly (Nasibi, etc.). And of course no discussion would be complete without us seeing the pictures of little boys being 'qama-ed' and backs full of blood, etc. So I got to thinking, if we are going to share bloodletting pictures, then let's share true bloodletting pictures so that we can all share our collective disgust over them. Heck we could even have a competition over who can find the most offensive picture of blooldletting. For example:

Anti-Blooding: pic of a boy with qama crying
Me: pic of a boy killed in a blast

Anti-Blooding: pic of a man with qama
Me: shia man shot in the head

Anti-Blooding: pic of a shia with zanjeer w/blades on back
Me: shia men shot in the back

Anti-Matam:  pic of one-handed matam vs two-handed matan
Me: pic of shia with one or both hands chopped off

Anti-Blooding: pic of shias running over hot coals
Me: pics of shias with their legs chopped off

Anti-Blooding: pic of multitude of shias doing bloodletting
Me: shia mosques/imambargahs suicide bombed.

I find it a little bit perplexing that we worry about a few scratches on our heads and backs while we are being slaughtered across the Muslim World.

I am not sure why more shias on ShiaChat are not vocal over the true bloodletting aka shia genocide taking place across the world.

What do you think of this pic competition?

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1 hour ago, Ali_Hussain said:

You don't think that there is a difference between behaviour that you can do something about and behaviour that is out of your control? 

Either way, perhaps after this thread we should close the book on tatbir until next year.

Shia-Shia unity is 100% within our control.

We have this great desire to mold every shia into what we think is the right kind of shia. There are all kinds of shias and we should be united in our love for the Prophet and his AhlulBayt and respect the diversity and difference that it brings even if we think it is wrong.

I will cite 2 small examples:

Example 1: I did the walk from Najaf to Karbala (no AhlulBayt ever did that) in 2013 as part of a group. Most of us were from the West. Along the way, we saw an old man walking briskly towards Karbala with a lamb on a leash. Some of the folks in the group starting making fun that the sheep was also going for ziarah. A couple of us had to remind them that the sheep was probably going to be slaughtered and fed to the zawar as this was probably the only thing this person had.

Point is that we from the West could not comprehend that why would a man walk with a lamp towards Karbala.

Example 2: This year, there was a candlelight vigil held on Muharrum 6th by a Shia Youth Group for Hz Ali Asghar. No AhlulBayt ever held a candlelight vigil for Hz Ali Asghar but this happened. Do you think the man with the lamb in Example 1 would understand this?

Point is there are no set rules for azadari and it is 99% cultural. And as long as one's marja has approved of a certain act, then one should be allowed to practice it without being ostracized for it.

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1 hour ago, Ali_Hussain said:

Either way, perhaps after this thread we should close the book on tatbir until next year.

:salam:

They want to be free to do what they want without anyone interfering but they actually love to put the topic on the table again and again so that tatbir gets more and more supporters each year. 

Let them fuel the fire of and let us condemn them so that any doubtful shia knows that the majority does not do that.

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2 minutes ago, realizm said:

:salam:

They want to be free to do what they want without anyone interfering but they actually love to put the topic on the table again and again so that tatbir gets more and more supporters each year. 

Let them fuel the fire of and let us condemn them so that any doubtful shia knows that the majority does not do that.

Hmmm, do a count of how many bloodletting topics were started by the pro-group? Hint: only this one.

You don't want to get into a "what the majority' does discussion.

We should be united against  the true bloodletting aka shia genocide.

Edited by shiaman14

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anti tatbiri are so stupid

if pictures of qamma/ tatbir/ zanjeer on google are sooooooooo offensive to them, all they have to do is load loads of pics online with meta data/ tags/ file names "shia islam" "shia" etc etc etc. a few thousand over around 6 months should do it. thats what, 50 or so a day? a team of 5 thats 10 pics a day. in fact the development team/ admins could set it up so the anti tatbiri do it right here on shiachat. hell, one person on their own could even do it.

I havent dont it myself because I find pictures of zanjeer and tatbir to be beautiful. Im happy to see shiism represented on google by such things. but shall anti tatbiri chat bangers online and complain or do something proactive?

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2016 and shias still think pictures of tatbir arent sensationalized by the media which misrepresents the rationale behind it (and misrepresents the principles of islam in general). 

You can see how thoughtful and understanding all the non-muslims are in the comments section under all these tatbir news articles. 

I mean honestly...

 

Edited by Jahangiram

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35 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

You don't want to get into a "what the majority' does discussion.

 

Well, you surely don't either.

Quote

We should be united against  the true bloodletting aka shia genocide.

This never was a question, brother. Do not make us look like we condone shia killings and put them on tatbir. 

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16 minutes ago, realizm said:

Well, you surely don't either.

Majority of Muslims are sunni right - does that make them right?

 

16 minutes ago, realizm said:

This never was a question, brother. Do not make us look like we condone shia killings and put them on tatbir. 

I am not making it look like anything. I am saying let's unite over killings, you want to fight over scratches. Perspective!

50 minutes ago, realizm said:

:salam:

They want to be free to do what they want without anyone interfering but they actually love to put the topic on the table again and again so that tatbir gets more and more supporters each year. 

Let them fuel the fire of and let us condemn them so that any doubtful shia knows that the majority does not do that.

Curious if you were able to do the count

Edited by shiaman14

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16 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Majority of Muslims are sunni right - does that make them right?

In some shia communities (maybe yours?) , majority practice tatbir. Does that make them right ?

I try to think `aql here. Why would self injury please Allah ? That is my question.

Quote

I am not making it look like anything. I am saying let's unite over killings, you want to fight over scratches. Perspective!

Here again, you've just claimed banning tatbir has more importance to me than my shia brothers and sisters' lives. So yes, you are trying to make it look like something. Do not deny, I have just quoted your words.

Quote

Curious if you were able to do the count

Indeed I spoke wrong. Anyway I will start to count your threads against mine. So far you have opened more than I did.

Turns out you look more obsessed by tatbir than me after all.

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9 minutes ago, realizm said:

I try to think `aql here. Why would self injury please Allah ? That is my question.

self injury for worldly affairs? i highly doubt it. 

grief for Imam Hussain (as) within the bounds of ruling of ones marja? completely different situation

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29 minutes ago, uponthesunnah said:

A quote from Imam Ali a.s that i feel sums up my emotions:

'By Allah, my heart breaks tosee the unity of these people on their wrong' - Nahjul Balagha

that quote was referring to the army of muawiyyah (LA). 

now you liken those who do tatbir to the followers of muawiyyah (LA)? 

Edited by DigitalUmmah

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2 hours ago, realizm said:

Why would self injury please Allah ? That is my question.

Why would shedding blood for His cause please Allah? He has promissed us the Jannah and commanding us to kill & die in His way.

Surah At-Taubah, Verse 111:

إِنَّ اللَّهَ اشْتَرَىٰ مِنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ أَنفُسَهُمْ وَأَمْوَالَهُم بِأَنَّ لَهُمُ الْجَنَّةَ يُقَاتِلُونَ فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ فَيَقْتُلُونَ وَيُقْتَلُونَ وَعْدًا عَلَيْهِ حَقًّا فِي التَّوْرَاةِ وَالْإِنجِيلِ وَالْقُرْآنِ وَمَنْ أَوْفَىٰ بِعَهْدِهِ مِنَ اللَّهِ فَاسْتَبْشِرُوا بِبَيْعِكُمُ الَّذِي بَايَعْتُم بِهِ وَذَٰلِكَ هُوَ الْفَوْزُ الْعَظِيمُ

Surely Allah has bought of the believers their persons and their property for this, that they shall have the garden; they fight in Allah's way, so they slay and are slain; a promise which is binding on Him in the Taurat and the Injeel and the Quran; and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? Rejoice therefore in the pledge which you have made; and that is the mighty achievement.

(English - Shakir)

 

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3 hours ago, realizm said:

Indeed I spoke wrong. Anyway I will start to count your threads against mine. So far you have opened more than I did.

Turns out you look more obsessed by tatbir than me after all.

Lol. This is my only thread on bloodletting. So I guess we are 1-0. Although it was not about you vs me but all the anti-bloodletting threads vs. pro-bloodletting threads.

3 hours ago, realizm said:

In some shia communities (maybe yours?) , majority practice tatbir. Does that make them right ?

where?

3 hours ago, realizm said:

I try to think `aql here. Why would self injury please Allah ? That is my question.

Millions of people walk from Najaf to Karbala. Aql would dictate they drive by car or bus. 

 

3 hours ago, realizm said:

Here again, you've just claimed banning tatbir has more importance to me than my shia brothers and sisters' lives. So yes, you are trying to make it look like something. Do not deny, I have just quoted your words.

well there are more threads on banning bloodletting than about the shia killings so it shows what is important to some shias.

Let's face it - there is no religious argument against bloodletting. It's all political.

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8 hours ago, DigitalUmmah said:

self injury for worldly affairs? i highly doubt it. 

grief for Imam Hussain (as) within the bounds of ruling of ones marja? completely different situation

Brother, have you ever watched the videos of the sufi orders who perform cheek piercing, skull nailing, and other stuff out of devotion to Allah ?

Where do you place such practices and in your opinion, would Ahl el beit (as) encourage muslims to go towards those practices ?

https://youtu.be/Aif20losbVs

Quote

Millions of people walk from Najaf to Karbala. Aql would dictate they drive by car or bus. 

@shiaman14 Not that kind of `aql....

Quote

Let's face it - there is no religious argument against bloodletting.

I invite you to answer my question to DigitalUmmah above too, if you don't mind.

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10 hours ago, realizm said:

Brother, have you ever watched the videos of the sufi orders who perform cheek piercing, skull nailing, and other stuff out of devotion to Allah ?

Where do you place such practices and in your opinion, would Ahl el beit (as) encourage muslims to go towards those practices 

Are they doing this for imam hussain? 

Have any maraji said it is permissible?

If both answers are no, see my earluer posts

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2 hours ago, DigitalUmmah said:

Are they doing this for imam hussain? 

Have any maraji said it is permissible?

If both answers are no, see my earluer posts

- So some things are now allowed for Imam Hussein (as) but not for Allah (swt) ?

- Maraji have not adressed blood letting for Allah's sake to my knowledge. I guess that makes it halal until provable haram by Quran and or sunnah ?

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Just now, realizm said:

- So some things are now allowed for Imam Hussein (as) but not for Allah (swt) ?

lol wut

1 minute ago, realizm said:

- Maraji have not adressed blood letting for Allah's sake to my knowledge. I guess that makes it halal until provable haram by Quran and or sunnah ?

all things are halal unless specifically forbidden by one of the Aimmah (as)

since tatbir/ zanjeer is relatively new, we refer to our marjas to determine the permissibility of it, whether it falls in the bounds of "acceptable amount of self harm" or not.

some say yes, some say no. 

we follow the ones that say yes, you follow the ones that say no. why is this so controversial? 

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1 hour ago, DigitalUmmah said:

lol wut

all things are halal unless specifically forbidden by one of the Aimmah (as)

since tatbir/ zanjeer is relatively new, we refer to our marjas to determine the permissibility of it, whether it falls in the bounds of "acceptable amount of self harm" or not.

some say yes, some say no. 

we follow the ones that say yes, you follow the ones that say no. why is this so controversial? 

I do not see how "lol wut" is an adequate answer to my question.

It would be nice to ask about Sufi flagellation rituals to maraji, even though I am quite sure of the answer and I guess you are too.

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2 hours ago, DigitalUmmah said:

since tatbir/ zanjeer is relatively new,

So you're admitting it wasn't done by the Aimmah (a) then, and its a modern day innovation, which you'll say is fine as long as it's deemed halal. But why would you do an action that's different from theirs? Wouldn't you want to emulate their actual grieving practice instead of making up your own? And not only that, but giving it the prominence that you do, as if it's a wajib act mandated by the Quran?

Also I'm curious, when the marja are asked about its permissibility, how is the question framed? Is it presented in full graphic fashion? That might determine the answer given.

Edited by magma

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35 minutes ago, magma said:

So you're admitting it wasn't done by the Aimmah (a) then, and its a modern day innovation, which you'll say is fine as long as it's deemed halal. But why would you do an action that's different from theirs? Wouldn't you want to emulate their actual grieving practice instead of making up your own? And not only that, but giving it the prominence that you do, as if it's a wajib act mandated by the Quran?

there doesn't need to be a "why". if something is deemed halal. we do it because we want to, and its how we choose to mourn. the Aimmah (as) left very little in terms of actual specifics on how to mourn for Imam other than crying. we believe that this was because they allowed people to mourn according to their own cultures and customs within the sharia. 

45 minutes ago, magma said:

Also I'm curious, when the marja are asked about its permissibility, how is the question framed? Is it presented in full graphic fashion? That might determine the answer given.

sheikh basheer is a good example. he has gone on record as saying that zanjeer (with blades) and tatbir (with swords) are very good acts. 

sayed sadeq Rouhani has gone on video as saying zanjeer with or without blades, and qamma (tatbir) are among the greatest forms of worship (or words to that effect)

 

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Those who do blood matam know that matam in the name of and in the love of Imam Hussain a.s is permissible.

It is the moral & scholarly responsibility of those who declare it haram. Bring any verse from Quran, bring any hadith of masoom, which became hujjah for those who do blood matam to quit this practice.

Applying absurd reasoning & logic for declaring something haram is not the appropriate & scholarly way to address any issue.

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2 minutes ago, Spiritual said:

Applying absurd reasoning & logic for declaring something haram is not the appropriate & scholarly way to address any issue.

many of them are only arguing because WF has banned it, so being typical WF worker ants they will blindly defend anything the WF says till death.

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2 minutes ago, DigitalUmmah said:

many of them are only arguing because WF has banned it, so being typical WF worker ants they will blindly defend anything the WF says till death.

Any sane human being regardless of their race or religion when they see a man cutting the forehead of a baby will say "What the hell is this" thats the fitra speaking. Now tell me the fitra is pro WF. 

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1 minute ago, DigitalUmmah said:

many of them are only arguing because WF has banned it, so being typical WF worker ants they will blindly defend anything the WF says till death.

Dont take them seriously. 

6 minutes ago, Martyrdom said:

Any sane human being regardless of their race or religion when they see a man cutting the forehead of a baby will say "What the hell is this" thats the fitra speaking. Now tell me the fitra is pro WF. 

Fitrah does not advocate to mourn on the death of any person for 1400 years. 

Please avoid any further absurd reasoning.

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3 minutes ago, Spiritual said:

 

Fitrah does not advocate to mourn on the death of any person for 1400 years. 

Please avoid any further absurd reasoning.

Fitra advocates that its not normal to cut the head of a baby.  Like the baby knows what the hell is going on. 

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11 minutes ago, DigitalUmmah said:

many of them are only arguing because WF has banned it, so being typical WF worker ants they will blindly defend anything the WF says till death.

On the flipside, your unhealthy and dogmatic obsession with this activity begets your compulsive and ravenous vendetta you've had against the WF all these years. The link between the two is quite obvious with you. 

Like a child angry at an adult because he won't let him play with his dangerous toys. 

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Just now, Martyrdom said:

Fitra advocates that its not normal to cut the head of a baby.  Like the baby knows what the hell is going on. 

Fitrah do not advocate to mourn on the death of a person for 1400 years. Declare the mourning on Imam Hussain as haram, if this is your logic.

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13 minutes ago, Spiritual said:

In other words, fitrah advocates that it is not normal to mourn on the death of a person for 1400 years.

Would you dare to declare mourning of Imam Hussain a.s haram?

You're putting words in his mouth. He never suggested or implied anything you're stating in this quote.

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