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In the Name of God بسم الله

Bloodletting: United We Stand

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6 minutes ago, haideriam said:

because my bro s14 the marja has not told you that this is how he arrived at the position, now this assumption is Qiyas bil Raiy.

Do you now see bro

If someone who does not know and gives an opinion even if right is a sin.

I think I get your point. You are saying comparing hijama to bloodletting is qiyas. Correct?

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8 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

your aqeedah was to not read and rspond to my posts which you broke literally within a few hours. So your new aqeedah of leaving ShiaChat will also break.

Or perhaps since you are found to be mischief-monger, you will comeback with an alternate screenname truer sunni or something.

Healey's famous remark that being attacked by Geoffrey Howe was 'like being savaged by a dead sheep' 

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23 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

It would be qiyas if no marja had approved of bloodletting but plenty have. So how is agreeing with marja qiyas?

 

18 minutes ago, haideriam said:

because my bro s14 the marja has not told you that this is how he arrived at the position, now this assumption is Qiyas bil Raiy.

Do you now see bro

If someone who does not know and gives an opinion even if right is a sin.

 

14 minutes ago, haideriam said:

have you not seen many a times the good maulanas when you ask them something and they are not sure, although they can give you an opinion from their knowledge, but will defer it to I will check and get back etc and may sometimes ask you for your marja.

 

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2 minutes ago, A true Sunni said:

Its a by-product of Shiaman14s blood letting. Its contributed to the terror I feel. So I am running from the  battlefield  

Blasted dead sheep everywhere

No one is going anywhere and let us see if we can get a single point discussion going as I have felt multiple issues cause confusion and anger. 

Let us try and bring semblance in here. You and S14 are officially brothers and we are only here to learn and see if we can help .

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1 hour ago, shiaman14 said:

Ah, we are diving into other topics which are well worth discussing in themselves.

We believe the Prophet (saw) was born a Prophet (saw) and not selected at 40.

Ah right,   I remember us having a discussion and this point came up! 

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43 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

I think I get your point. You are saying comparing hijama to bloodletting is qiyas. Correct?

Thank you my bro.

I am still not saying that comparing hijama to blood letting is qiyas or not qiyas.  For me even saying so becomes qiyas as I am not equipped with the right tools to make that deduction. 

So my refraining from not comparing them and doing precaution is better than trying to lend justification without the tools.

Like I said even if we are right it is a sin...there is a hadith about it and yet if the scholar is even wrong there is reward for him. This is the emphasis of ilm in our religion.

And especially if we have not attended the dars e kharij of the marja to see how he arrived at the opinion. 

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8 hours ago, ServantOfTheOne said:

Salam brother @shiaman14,

I have an opposing view on this and let's not hope it divides us or even gathers insults against me.

Your quote is not a robust one. We all worry about shias being slaughtered all over the world. We also worry about mistreatment of muslims in general all over the world. Also, there is a lot of pain and suffering in every corner of the world regardless of religion or nationality.

The reasoning against bloodletting from the opposers' side is a multi-faceted one. There is a general concern about the impact of this practice from a reputation angle and also a theological one; though my point does not lead into explaining my personal view.

More to the point, just because we are discussing the eligibility of this practice does not mean we are not worried about oppression around the world in general. Perhaps your question would be best worded to place emphasis on our unity in protecting each other against oppression, regardless of the practice of bloodletting. In that sense, yes I can agree with you.

Regarding the competition in finding the most extreme pictures on bloodletting, I do not think it helps shias or anyone around the world who spread such imagery:

Firstly, for those who practice it, the art is a personal act. The intention of the person performing the act is to gift his/her pain and/or blood in order to feel a connection with the martyrs and therefore honor them. Therefore presenting it publicly defeats the point. It's like giving charity and then broadcasting your good will for ego.

Secondly, for those who are against the practice, the display of such imagery is widely believed to serve as a detriment to the image of Islam. Voluntary blood spilling (regardless of intentions) is a naturally negative image all over the world.

I agree but @shiaman14 explained it is an optional non required practice.

Those who participate in it, inherit the risk of whether what they are doing is right, wrong etc.  It shouldn't be characterized as an islamic attribute, nor a shia one. 

If I'm understanding him right.  This is an expression by cultural definition.  Some shia scholars speak for it or against it.  And the people follow based on that.

Whether to figure out if it's possible to separate the attribute of bloodletting away from Islam or shia Islam is another issue. 

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30 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

Ah right,   I remember us having a discussion and this point came up! 

it is very fundamental to the shia-sunni discussion.

Anything else you want to discuss on this specific topic?

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30 minutes ago, haideriam said:

Thank you my bro.

I am still not saying that comparing hijama to blood letting is qiyas or not qiyas.  For me even saying so becomes qiyas as I am not equipped with the right tools to make that deduction. 

So my refraining from not comparing them and doing precaution is better than trying to lend justification without the tools.

Like I said even if we are right it is a sin...there is a hadith about it and yet if the scholar is even wrong there is reward for him. This is the emphasis of ilm in our religion.

And especially if we have not attended the dars e kharij of the marja to see how he arrived at the opinion. 

Fair enough. I can live with that. :) 

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7 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

it is very fundamental to the shia-sunni discussion.

Anything else you want to discuss on this specific topic?

Hm so we disagree in this regard of beliving all men are created equal with regard to Imam Hussein AS/prophets and other men, and whether If we treat them differently in regard to the sand consumption for blessing or /blood letting for honor/grief topic. 

I think I understand, so iIdont think there's anything  further to add from my perspective. This is an impasse :D

Thank you for the discussion :)

We simply interpreted differently.   Though I don't have  a problem with the idea of belief our prophets were prophets since birth.

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On 10/31/2016 at 8:05 PM, shiaman14 said:

 

Anti-Blooding: pic of a boy with qama crying
Me: pic of a boy killed in a blast

Anti-Blooding: pic of a man with qama
Me: shia man shot in the head

Anti-Blooding: pic of a shia with zanjeer w/blades on back
Me: shia men shot in the back

Anti-Matam:  pic of one-handed matam vs two-handed matan
Me: pic of shia with one or both hands chopped off

Anti-Blooding: pic of shias running over hot coals
Me: pics of shias with their legs chopped off

Anti-Blooding: pic of multitude of shias doing bloodletting
Me: shia mosques/imambargahs suicide bombed.

.

What do you think of this pic competition?

On a previous thread Shiaman14 said that one of the by-products/(contributory factors) of blood lettings was that ISIS were to terrified to fight Shias.

So he acknowledges that blood letting causes terror in people. Rather then address the issue of scaring people away from the Ahlul Bait. He wants to start a photo competition of who can find the most blood thirsty picture.

'you think we are bad look at ISIS'  approach.

Do you really want to be bracketted with the likes of ISIS. Victim and Zaalim both regarded as barbaric.

Did Hz Ali(as) say you think I am bad look at Moaviya

Did Hz Hussain(as) say you think i am bad look at Yazid

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Bro A true Sunni

I thing we have concluded that we will not do actual qiyas leave aside pretend qiyas, so this post is to that extent now exhausted and redundant.

Also there is perhaps a very major basic usooli difference between the 2 scenarios, in that one is willing participation and the other is forced upon without choice.

Having said that we are now in agreement that we will refrain from qiyas. 

We will make some comment on this in our private chat after. 

PS. Without naming, anyone who sides unfairly or to give life to a fitna of acrimony is really speaking of their inner state. So rather than help ignite further let us try and smoulder that flame.

Thanks. 

 

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5 hours ago, haideriam said:

Bro A true Sunni

I thing we have concluded that we will not do actual qiyas leave aside pretend qiyas, so this post is to that extent now exhausted and redundant.

Also there is perhaps a very major basic usooli difference between the 2 scenarios, in that one is willing participation and the other is forced upon without choice.

Having said that we are now in agreement that we will refrain from qiyas. 

We will make some comment on this in our private chat after. 

PS. Without naming, anyone who sides unfairly or to give life to a fitna of acrimony is really speaking of their inner state. So rather than help ignite further let us try and smoulder that flame.

Thanks. 

 

I agree with you. I just wanted to highlight a deeper truth that wasnt obvious at first glance

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Sometimes i just pray for the reappearance of Imam Mahdi ajfs.

He is the only one that can absolutely solve the behaviour among our own people.

And it is narrated in ahadith, that the first group Imam Mahdi ajfs will go for are the shia's and the deviations among them.

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21 hours ago, Spiritual said:

Any conclusion for this 11 pages debate? :angry:

People like ATS choose to only fight. They want to fight over something that happens 1-2 times per year when I am saying we should unite over the shia blood being spilled year-round. 

Maybe that's his purpose.

18 hours ago, A true Sunni said:

On a previous thread Shiaman14 said that one of the by-products/(contributory factors) of blood lettings was that ISIS were to terrified to fight Shias.

So he acknowledges that blood letting causes terror in people. Rather then address the issue of scaring people away from the Ahlul Bait. He wants to start a photo competition of who can find the most blood thirsty picture.

'you think we are bad look at ISIS'  approach.

Do you really want to be bracketted with the likes of ISIS. Victim and Zaalim both regarded as barbaric.

Did Hz Ali(as) say you think I am bad look at Moaviya

Did Hz Hussain(as) say you think i am bad look at Yazid

For sure, no anti-shia group has agreed to face shia on an open battlefield. They know our ferocity and fear it.

It is quite similar to Muawiya knowing Imam Ali's ferocity which is why he refused to face Imam Ali 1:1 at Siffin. 

I don't expect you to understand this since you cry every time ISIS gets killed since they too are "TRUE SUNNI"

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11 hours ago, A true Sunni said:

I agree with you. I just wanted to highlight a deeper truth that wasnt obvious at first glance

Taking truth from a mischief-monger is like buying medicine from an illegal-drug dealer.

9 hours ago, uponthesunnah said:

Sometimes i just pray for the reappearance of Imam Mahdi ajfs.

He is the only one that can absolutely solve the behaviour among our own people.

And it is narrated in ahadith, that the first group Imam Mahdi ajfs will go for are the shia's and the deviations among them.

Hypothetically speaking, if Imam Mahdi (ajfs) permits bloodletting, would you still be against it (all else being equal)?

 

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On 11/11/2016 at 5:39 PM, wmehar2 said:

Hm so we disagree in this regard of beliving all men are created equal with regard to Imam Hussein AS/prophets and other men, and whether If we treat them differently in regard to the sand consumption for blessing or /blood letting for honor/grief topic. 

I think I understand, so iIdont think there's anything  further to add from my perspective. This is an impasse :D

Thank you for the discussion :)

We simply interpreted differently.   Though I don't have  a problem with the idea of belief our prophets were prophets since birth.

Condolences on the Sufi Shrine that got bombed in Pakistan. Needless loss of life.

The point of this thread is for all of us to unite over our similarities to combat terrorism rather than fight/argue over our differences which only serves to add fuel to the terrorism fire.

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7 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

People like ATS choose to only fight. They want to fight over something that happens 1-2 times per year when I am saying we should unite over the shia blood being spilled year-round. 

 

So when you cant win a discussion you rephrase the question. There is no either or. We can condem you repeatedly for driving people away from the Ahlul Bait and still unite with you to die and fight against iSIS so less of the drama 

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4 minutes ago, A true Sunni said:

and none of them doing it now!!. Nothing stands still.

So its not the issue of tabir, rather an issue of odedience.

People were doing tatbir & obeying him, its no problem then. But now since he imposed ban on tatbir, those who  are continue doing tatbir are not his obedient. 

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