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In the Name of God بسم الله

An important confusion about Zanjir zani

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7 minutes ago, Lover of Ahlulbait (ams) said:

Seems like you have ample of free time to repeat same rhetoric again and again. You do not understand simple things and fighting with a brother over brackets. First clarify us why Imam Shirazi site put chest and back in brackets. We'll do the same when we'll receive reply from A4I website. Because it's wrong to accuse someone without proof. 

so simple question do you also defend faked fatwas. do you also follow the Sunnah of Abu Huraira. Simple yes or no will suffice

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Why do we need to have this endless debate about which marjas allow tatbir or zanjeer? It's just incredibly stupid. Everyone knows that there are marjas on both sides of this debate. So whether or not

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5 hours ago, A true Sunni said:

Still not reading posts from defenders of fatwa fakers and charlatans. You can post and reply all you like. 

Can you confirm who the charlatans are?

Me?

A4I?

Ayatollah Naini for issuing the first fatwa permitting bloodletting?

All Marajae who allow this practice?

So let's see. You first brought up A4I as if every bloodletter relies on that site to perform qama/zanjeer. Clearly not the case. Then using the Islamic principles you laid out, I got you to change your stance:

On 10/20/2016 at 3:02 AM, A true Sunni said:

Finally you quite rightly challenge me on why I call them liars. Within the scope of Islamic/Shia law the minimum I can say they are definitely guilty of is severe dereliction of duty.

and then:

On 10/20/2016 at 8:35 PM, A true Sunni said:

I am happy that we are now in agreement that Azadari4Imam has at the minimum had a severe dereliction in duty 

So in my infinite wisdom, I thought the matter was resolved. But of course in typical fashion that you and your ilk behave in, you have once again changed your mind.

The reason you are refusing to engage with me is because you can't handle me at an intellectual level. You were soundly put in your place which is why you asked for that thread to be closed.

 

5 hours ago, A true Sunni said:

In fact I never insulted you . i only condem blood letting and its practices and of course I insult those that fake fatwas and defend faking fatwas.

As a final note on how hollow your so called 'discovery' is.

The Jews killed themselves in atonement for their sin.

Allah forgave them and bought them back to life.

We have numerous examples of people dying from blood letting

I have yet to see a single one being resurrected.

Faulty analogies result in faulty conclusions

Remind me, does the first fatwa on this issue permit bloodletting or reject it?

5 hours ago, A true Sunni said:

We have numerous examples of people dying from blood letting

Maulana Syed Zeeshan Haider Jawadi died just after reciting a maslij on Ashur. I guess we should ban all majalis as well.

 

 

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2 hours ago, A true Sunni said:

Except that most of these discussions come about when

people use faked fatwas from Azadari4Imam

Defend faked fatwas from Azadari4Imam

Use sunni narrations

Use contradictory narrations

Use ridiculus analogies

Use partial fatwas

Use out of date vid clips

Exagerate no. of pro blood letting fatwas 80-1000

You bring up A4I. No one else on this and other threads has.

That site has fatwas from over 80 marajae.

imamshirazi has narrations from Bihar Al-Anwar about Hz. Zainab striking her head.

49 minutes ago, A true Sunni said:

Shiaman14 is a supporter and defender of faked fatwas and fakers of fatwas. He follows the Sunnah of Abu-Huraira.

 

Have the guts to tag me if you are going to talk about me. After putting you in your place, you asked for that thread to be closed. Now that I am engaged here, I suppose much like Muawiya and Amr Al-Aas raised the Quran in Siffin, you will quote some Quran ayat and ask for this thread to be closed.

I beat using your own principles so of course you are bitter and taking it out on others.

To my other brothers. This usually shuts @A true Sunni up:

Are you against all forms of bloodletting or just the back?

I must have asked this at least 20 times and he failed to answer it even once.

ATS - you can say anything about me, I wont complain to mods.

You want this thread closed rather than have an intellectual discussion.

Edited by shiaman14
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12 minutes ago, A true Sunni said:

so simple question do you also defend faked fatwas. do you also follow the Sunnah of Abu Huraira. Simple yes or no will suffice

Hmmm, you accuse someone of a crime without proof. So while you have to ask @Lover of Ahlulbait (ams) whether he follows the sunnah of Abu Huraira, you CLEARLY follow the sunnah of your lord and Master Umar bin Al-Khattab. Allah knows you run like him.

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Who spilled blood on the day of Husayn's martyrdom? The allies/army of Yazid. So whose taqleed are the tatbiris following? One could call it the Shia of Yazid. Husayn ibn Ali died for something big, the spilling of his blood saved Islam. The blood letting on muharram is spilled on nothing for nothing, what it does is create more division and pulling people away from Islam.

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2 minutes ago, Wing said:

Who spilled blood on the day of Husayn's martyrdom? The allies/army of Yazid. So whose taqleed are the tatbiris following? One could call it the Shia of Yazid. Husayn ibn Ali died for something big, the spilling of his blood saved Islam. The blood letting on muharram is spilled on nothing for nothing, what it does is create more division and pulling people away from Islam.

If only Ayatollah Naini was blessed with your wisdom. First ever fatwa on this issue:

Al-Imam al-Sheikh Muhammad Hussain al-Naa’ini,

 

The teacher of the Maraje’ of the holy city of Najaf.

 

“There is no doubt as to the permissibility of the beating of the chest and the face with the hands to the point of redness or blackness (of the chest or the face).  This is also extended to the lashing of the shoulders and the back with chains to the extent mentioned (above), and even if this led to bleeding. As for causing the bleeding of the head by sword beating, this is also allowed provided it does not lead to endangering harm, such as unstoppable bleeding or harm to the scull, etc. as it is known amongst the experts in doing this (hitting on the head).”

Edited by shiaman14
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5 hours ago, Spiritual said:

 

I think you know all these things. It was asked by the hindus & other non muslims that who were those for whom these people are shedding their blood. Hence it became cultural practise.

 

You lost me there bro, how can something become a cultural practice after the event. That certainly is called innovation.

By the way who was this Taimur Lang that you have mentioned. There seems to be some mistake there. 

 

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17 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

You bring up A4I. No one else on this and other threads has.

That site has fatwas from over 80 marajae.

imamshirazi has narrations from Bihar Al-Anwar about Hz. Zainab striking her head.

Have the guts to tag me if you are going to talk about me. After putting you in your place, you asked for that thread to be closed. Now that I am engaged here, I suppose much like Muawiya and Amr Al-Aas raised the Quran in Siffin, you will quote some Quran ayat and ask for this thread to be closed.

I beat using your own principles so of course you are bitter and taking it out on others.

To my other brothers. This usually shuts @A true Sunni up:

Are you against all forms of bloodletting or just the back?

I must have asked this at least 20 times and he failed to answer it even once.

ATS - you can say anything about me, I wont complain to mods.

You want this thread closed rather than have an intellectual discussion.

I told you I am ignoring your posts to me. Its a matter of Aqueeda to me now

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6 hours ago, DigitalUmmah said:

lol what on earth?

would you not say that zanjeer/ tatbir is part of our culture of azadari right now

if its our culture right now, then it falls exactly into what has already been explained to you many times. 

culture is fluid and always changing 

Looks like bro you have not understood the lecture but that is OK.

It is the introduction that has to do with culture....and not right now.

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15 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

Hmmm, you accuse someone of a crime without proof. So while you have to ask @Lover of Ahlulbait (ams) whether he follows the sunnah of Abu Huraira, you CLEARLY follow the sunnah of your lord and Master Umar bin Al-Khattab. Allah knows you run like him.

I am refusing to read any of your posts . Defenders of faked fatwas have no place in my reply list, Please stop replying

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4 minutes ago, haideriam said:

It is the introduction that has to do with culture....and not right now.

do me a favour and stop talking to me.

you have reached critical mass...event horizon....the singularity...where i can no longer tell if you are a brilliant troll or a complete imbecile.

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DU bro you might have just understood that without those proofs you are doing a bidah.

No problem bro just don't act too clever with my comments and I should not have a reason to answer. 

Just keep away. 

To the rest : Looks like my bro A true Sunni is beating you all hands down , the reason for you all to resort to vile attacks. 

There is probably a hadith that paraphrases that vile language is the sign of low intellect and especially after not grasping basics of words/arguments etc it is becoming evident.

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1 hour ago, shiaman14 said:

If only Ayatollah Naini was blessed with your wisdom. First ever fatwa on this issue:

Al-Imam al-Sheikh Muhammad Hussain al-Naa’ini,

 

The teacher of the Maraje’ of the holy city of Najaf.

 

“There is no doubt as to the permissibility of the beating of the chest and the face with the hands to the point of redness or blackness (of the chest or the face).  This is also extended to the lashing of the shoulders and the back with chains to the extent mentioned (above), and even if this led to bleeding. As for causing the bleeding of the head by sword beating, this is also allowed provided it does not lead to endangering harm, such as unstoppable bleeding or harm to the scull, etc. as it is known amongst the experts in doing this (hitting on the head).”

So you spend 6 pages and hours of time arguing back and forth defending faked fatwas from Azadari4Imam and then post the original translation.

Argumentative and misleading are just 2 of the least commenst I can make about you. Oh BTW am still ignoring any other diatribe you post.

I just read this because I saw it was a quote which has nothing to do with blades on the back which is what Shiaman14 and his ilk are so desperate to defend

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Al-Imam al-Sheikh Muhammad Hussain al-Naa’ini,

 

The teacher of the Maraje’ of the holy city of Najaf.

 

“There is no doubt as to the permissibility of the beating of the chest and the face with the hands to the point of redness or blackness (of the chest or the face).  This is also extended to the lashing of the shoulders and the back with chains to the extent mentioned (above), and even if this led to bleeding. As for causing the bleeding of the head by sword beating, this is also allowed provided it does not lead to endangering harm, such as unstoppable bleeding or harm to the scull, etc. as it is known amongst the experts in doing this (hitting on the head).”

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Al-Imam al-Sheikh Muhammad Hussain al-Naa’ini,

 

The teacher of the Maraje’ of the holy city of Najaf.

 

“There is no doubt as to the permissibility of the beating of the chest and the face with the hands to the point of redness or blackness (of the chest or the face).  This is also extended to the lashing of the shoulders and the back with chains to the extent mentioned (above), and even if this led to bleeding. As for causing the bleeding of the head by sword beating, this is also allowed provided it does not lead to endangering harm, such as unstoppable bleeding or harm to the scull, etc. as it is known amongst the experts in doing this (hitting on the head).”

Edited by haideriam
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Al-Imam al-Sheikh Muhammad Hussain al-Naa’ini,

 

The teacher of the Maraje’ of the holy city of Najaf.

 

“There is no doubt as to the permissibility of the beating of the chest and the face with the hands to the point of redness or blackness (of the chest or the face).  This is also extended to the lashing of the shoulders and the back with chains to the extent mentioned (above), and even if this led to bleeding. As for causing the bleeding of the head by sword beating, this is also allowed provided it does not lead to endangering harm, such as unstoppable bleeding or harm to the scull, etc. as it is known amongst the experts in doing this (hitting on the head).”

 

 Now here is the only place where niyya of bleeding is permissible with provisos according to Ayatullah Naa'ini's fatwa which almost all had used till the very present times. 

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7 minutes ago, haideriam said:

Al-Imam al-Sheikh Muhammad Hussain al-Naa’ini,

 

The teacher of the Maraje’ of the holy city of Najaf.

 

“There is no doubt as to the permissibility of the beating of the chest and the face with the hands to the point of redness or blackness (of the chest or the face).  This is also extended to the lashing of the shoulders and the back with chains to the extent mentioned (above), and even if this led to bleeding. As for causing the bleeding of the head by sword beating, this is also allowed provided it does not lead to endangering harm, such as unstoppable bleeding or harm to the scull, etc. as it is known amongst the experts in doing this (hitting on the head).”

 

 Now here is the only place where niyya of bleeding is permissible with provisos according to Ayatullah Naa'ini's fatwa which almost all had used till the very present times. 

Speaking to the elders they tell me that the 'experts' used to slap their head to draw the blood to the scalp . Once the scalp was red and infused with blood they used to cut it causing blood to flow freely

They would then continue beating it with their hands.

Nothing like this blood bath you see now. I would hazard a guess and say this is what Ayatullah Naeeni meant by experts but Allah knows best

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19 minutes ago, A true Sunni said:

Speaking to the elders they tell me that the 'experts' used to slap their head to draw the blood to the scalp . Once the scalp was red and infused with blood they used to cut it causing blood to flow freely

They would then continue beating it with their hands.

Nothing like this blood bath you see now. I would hazard a guess and say this is what Ayatullah Naeeni meant by experts but Allah knows best

Quite true and if one has ever seen organised Qama, the people with qamas tap their heads with the flat side and go to this expert who gives them the cuts and they then go back to tapping it with the flat side of the qama.

Very similar to what you have described above and possibly very similar to what was prevalent during the earlier times of Ayatullah Naa'ini

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haha magma bro, nice one.

 

Now for my bladed zanjeer zan brothers, listen there is no need to build up long and tall stories about fatwas with tahrif,....all you have to do if you follow a marja e taqleed system without the WF concept, then follow what your marja has said. This is the only legitimate way of performing bladed zanjir zani. 

Kindly remember that there has to be pure niyya and full sincerity in that you would have shed your blood for the Imam(as) and it should have no element of show like toakkas(meat cleavers) and pronouncements etc. Keep it between yourself and the Imam(as). The quantity of blood should have no significance for it is just a symbol of shedding blood so even small knives will do and will prevent showmanship(riya). If and almost all Ayatullahs mention the proviso of damage to the image of Islam then you have to take that into account but for instances like this and the internet the world becomes your oyster(urf)

I have no problem if you follow the above, and if I have faulted the other brothers can correct me.

Wailing is the method liked by the Imams(as) hence no compromise there, Majalis of Aza organised by Imams hence no compromise there either. . Slapping and beating Fitri manifestations  of grief and hence no problems. 

As for me I am bound by the WF system and hence it(the blood letting by qama, bladed zanjir etc) is forbidden for me.

The only exception being that I can do matam to the blue and black stages  even if  it led to the minor bruise bleeding. Someone correct me if I am wrong here and they are more familiar with the opinion of Ayatullah Khameini. 

Inshallah now we should get back to correcting ourselves and being brothers again.

 

Edited by haideriam
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2 hours ago, A true Sunni said:

I told you I am ignoring your posts to me. Its a matter of Aqueeda to me now

reinventing aqeedah. Seems about right for you and your ilk.

Perhaps tomorrow you aqeedah will include not responding to my posts either. But then again, you change your mind so much who knows what your aqeedah will be tomorrow.

2 hours ago, A true Sunni said:

I am refusing to read any of your posts . Defenders of faked fatwas have no place in my reply list, Please stop replying

Please stop replying to my replies.

1 hour ago, A true Sunni said:

So you spend 6 pages and hours of time arguing back and forth defending faked fatwas from Azadari4Imam and then post the original translation.

Argumentative and misleading are just 2 of the least commenst I can make about you. Oh BTW am still ignoring any other diatribe you post.

I just read this because I saw it was a quote which has nothing to do with blades on the back which is what Shiaman14 and his ilk are so desperate to defend

You have changed your aqeedah again.

54 minutes ago, A true Sunni said:

Speaking to the elders they tell me that the 'experts' used to slap their head to draw the blood to the scalp . Once the scalp was red and infused with blood they used to cut it causing blood to flow freely

They would then continue beating it with their hands.

Nothing like this blood bath you see now. I would hazard a guess and say this is what Ayatullah Naeeni meant by experts but Allah knows best

30 minutes ago, haideriam said:

Quite true and if one has ever seen organised Qama, the people with qamas tap their heads with the flat side and go to this expert who gives them the cuts and they then go back to tapping it with the flat side of the qama.

Very similar to what you have described above and possibly very similar to what was prevalent during the earlier times of Ayatullah Naa'ini

So everyone agrees bleedletting is permissible. Is the only squabble over the mode of bloodletting?

Edited by shiaman14
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5 minutes ago, haideriam said:

haha magma bro, nice one.

 

Now for my bladed zanjeer zan brothers, listen there is no need to build up long and tall stories about fatwas with tahrif,....all you have to do if you follow a marja e taqleed system without the WF concept, then follow what your marja has said. This is the only legitimate way of performing bladed zanjir zani. 

Kindly remember that there has to be pure niyya and full sincerity in that you would have shed your blood for the Imam(as) and it should have no element of show like toakkas(meat cleavers) and pronouncements etc. Keep it between yourself and the Imam(as). The quantity of blood should have no significance for it is just a symbol of shedding blood so even small knives will do and will prevent showmanship(riya). If and almost all Ayatullahs mention the proviso of damage to the image of Islam then you have to take that into account but for instances like this and the internet the world becomes your oyster(urf)

I have no problem if you follow the above, and if I have faulted the other brothers can correct me.

Wailing is the method liked by the Imams(as) hence no compromise there, Majalis of Aza organised by Imams hence no compromise there either. . Slapping and beating Fitri manifestations  of grief and hence no problems. 

As for me I am bound by the WF system and hence it(the blood letting by qama, bladed zanjir etc) is forbidden for me.

The only exception being that I can do matam to the blue and black stages  even if  it led to the minor bruise bleeding. Someone correct me if I am wrong here and they are more familiar with the opinion of Ayatullah Khameini. 

Inshallah now we should get back to correcting ourselves and being brothers again.

 

Perfect. We are on the same page brother.

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8 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

So everyone agrees bleedletting is permissible. Is the only squabble over the mode of bloodletting?

The OP does NOT agree to this:

On 10/23/2016 at 3:13 PM, Jawid Akbari said:

Thus, we see there are two cultural settings and two significations for one word. The mujtahid means one thing and the recipient of the answer who comes from the Indian sub-continent understands something else.  Here the duty-bound (mukallaf) should suffice to the literal and original meaning of the term "zanjir" which  means chain only.  He cannot take it for knives, blades, daggers and swords. That is what I want my Indian and Pakistani brothers to take notice of.  

 

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22 minutes ago, hameedeh said:

The OP does NOT agree to this:

 

I am sorry brother Haideriam but on this we differ.

In my experience blood letters cannot construct a coherent argument

They contradict themselves from one post to another

They prefer faked fatwas to real ones

They prefer out dated vid clips to real fatwas

they prefer to cherry pick fatwa wordings

prefer to use Sunni narrations

Use contradictory narrations by cherry picking words

To them fatwas are just a means to legitimise blood letting.

You can only have an agreement with the party using these tactics if they cut out the cancer from with in them.

We have already seen Shiaman14 claim ignorance of standard English norms in order to avoid condemning faked fatwas

Until then they will continue to defend nonsensical arguments.

Defenders of faked fatwas follow the Sunnah of Abu Huraira

Edited by A true Sunni
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Just now, A true Sunni said:

I am sorry brother Haideriam but on this we differ.

In my experience blood letters cannot construct a coherent argument

They contradict themselves from one post to another

They prefer faked fatwas to real ones

They prefer out dated vid clips to real fatwas

they prefer to cherry pick fatwa wordings

prefer to use Sunni narrations

Use contradictory narrations by cherry picking words

To them fatwas are just a means to legitimise blood letting.

You can only have an agreement with the party using these tactics if they cut out the cancer from with in them.

We have already seen Shiaman14 claim ignorance of standard English norms in order to avoid condemning faked fatwas

Until then they will continue to defend nonsensical arguments.

 

Are you referring to our debate where you lost and cried about getting the thread closed?

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Just now, A true Sunni said:

wont waste my time reading posts from defenders of faked fatwas. No matter how short ur post

well you seem to have read my thread on accusing without proof.

I thought it was part of your aqeeda to not read my posts. If you can't adhere to a newly formed aqeedah, what are the chances you follow any aqeedah whatsoever.

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Bro s14

Please stop it, we are all brothers now and will correct ourselves. 

Bro A true Sunni, understand your points but sometimes we have to give our brothers time and we also need the time for internal reformation. 

Inshallah they will not do it again.

 

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3 minutes ago, haideriam said:

Bro s14

Please stop it, we are all brothers now and will correct ourselves. 

Bro A true Sunni, understand your points but sometimes we have to give our brothers time and we also need the time for internal reformation. 

Inshallah they will not do it again.

 

brother - he was the one who was glad our discussions on the other thread were without acrimony towards to end. Then he calls me a follower of Abu Huraira but somehow it is my fault?

What I should have done is complain to the mods about his name-calling me but I choose not to. I have plenty of people who will also complain about his rude behavior towards them. May be he is used to abusing his wife and kids and thinks that this sort of behavior is acceptable on ShiaChat. May be he wants to take advantage of the polite, civil and non-confrontational brothers. I wont speculate as to why he is the way he is BUT IT NEEDS TO STOP.

Once he learns to respect ShiaChatters, I will heed your advice my brother.

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50 minutes ago, hameedeh said:

The OP does NOT agree to this:

I'm glad we're all on the same page. 

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13 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

brother - he was the one who was glad our discussions on the other thread were without acrimony towards to end. Then he calls me a follower of Abu Huraira but somehow it is my fault?

What I should have done is complain to the mods about his name-calling me but I choose not to. I have plenty of people who will also complain about his rude behavior towards them. May be he is used to abusing his wife and kids and thinks that this sort of behavior is acceptable on ShiaChat. May be he wants to take advantage of the polite, civil and non-confrontational brothers. I wont speculate as to why he is the way he is BUT IT NEEDS TO STOP.

Once he learns to respect ShiaChatters, I will heed your advice my brother.

yaara bro, take his hard words with kindness as he is our elder bro and I know he wants to reform us very quickly.  He does not have an ill intention towards us and that is what counts the most, the good niyya.

 

 

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52 minutes ago, hameedeh said:

The OP does NOT agree to this:

 

Correct sister.

I think and am not 100% sure that Ayatullah Najafi allows blades but need to confirm or if someone can highlight and heard Ayatullah Khorasani mention Taegh one time(would appreciate the clip, though it is not in the clip which is doing the rounds or might have been a tahrif in the translation).

I can only speculate that tatbir.org is a good read and all Ayatullahs will eventually forbid this practise in due course of time, but that is not for the present. 

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