An important confusion about Zanjir zani

[Jawid Akbari]

Dear brothers and sisters in Islam,

I am a student of religion currently living in Iran. I have lived in Pakistan for many many years. Thus I am acquainted with both Farsi and Urdu languages. I have noticed a lot of my Pakistani and Indian brothers asking questions about zanjir-zani. They keep wondering whether zanjir-zani is permissible or impermissible. The term "zanjir-zani" is used both in Persian and Urdu but they have different meanings and significations in both languages. This term is originally Persian but it it signifies  "qama-zani" in Urdu. When a Pakistani Shia Muslim asks a religious authority about whether or not "zanjir-zani" is allowed, he wants to get a reply about "qama-zani"  (zanjir attached to knives) while the Marja (religious authority) who speaks Farsi or Arabic and has no idea about its Urdu meaning answers what he understands from this compound word (zanjir-zani). He says, "It is permissible." And he means to say that hitting oneself during Muharram using chains (zanjir) only is allowed.  There is nothing in the word "zanjir" to indicate that it is attached to knives. 

Thus, we see there are two cultural settings and two significations for one word. The mujtahid means one thing and the recipient of the answer who comes from the Indian sub-continent understands something else.  Here the duty-bound (mukallaf) should suffice to the literal and original meaning of the term "zanjir" which  means chain only.  He cannot take it for knives, blades, daggers and swords. That is what I want my Indian and Pakistani brothers to take notice of.  Allah Hafiz.

 

Edited October 23, 2016 by Jawid Akbari
mistake in some words

[alirex]

Good to know but let me inform you Sheikh Bashir Najfi who was originally from Pakistan but now Mujtahid in Iraq clearly said " Zara sa Qatra Khoon ka " that indicate something which will cut the skin and blood will come out. And i am sure he knows practice of Blades in India and Pakistan where Zanjeer Zani and Qama Zani both are actually Blood Matam.

And second point is, right now things are not much in illusion after Ayatollah Khamenei fatwa on Qama Zani as Haraam act. And Qama Zani and Zanjeer Zani practicing people clearly knows what they are doing and how many mujtahid gave permissible fatwa for that act.

[A true Sunni]

2 hours ago, alirex said:

 " Zara sa Qatra Khoon ka " that indicate something which will cut the skin and blood will come out. And i am sure he knows practice of Blades in India and Pakistan where Zanjeer Zani and Qama Zani

I am sorry that is a gross misinterpretation of 'Urdu' . I can only presume Urdu is not your first language. That means a slight drop of blood. From what I recall that phrase isnt even on his fatwa but I could be wrong

As an Usooli Shia you should know that you cant cherry pick phrases out of a fatwa. You have to quote the whole fatwa including the question

[DigitalUmmah]

The "slight drop of blood" being quoted in this thread is the amount in relation to the amount lost while donating blood. i.e. We donate a lot more blood (sheikh basheer uses the term "puri bottle") than  we ever lose by doing zanjeer. 

Please do not try and make this somehow about sheikh basheer putting limits to how much tatbir is acceptable. The respected sheikh literally says that if you die accidentally during tatbir there is no sin on you, in fact your death is blessed.

Proof here at 29 minutes:

you people are just going to have to deal with the fact that he is pro tatbir. WF can produce 1000 fatwas, sheikh basheer is still pro tatbir

 

[A true Sunni]

38 minutes ago, DigitalUmmah said:

The "slight drop of blood" being quoted in this thread is the amount in relation to the amount lost while donating blood. i.e. We donate a lot more blood (sheikh basheer uses the term "puri bottle") than  we ever lose by doing zanjeer. 

Please do not try and make this somehow about sheikh basheer putting limits to how much tatbir is acceptable. The respected sheikh literally says that if you die accidentally during tatbir there is no sin on you, in fact your death is blessed.

Proof here at 29 minutes:

you people are just going to have to deal with the fact that he is pro tatbir. WF can produce 1000 fatwas, sheikh basheer is still pro tatbir

 

Far from it I corrected a mistranslation. So you agree that it was wrongly translated . The guy is from India surely he would know 'zara sa qatra means' . Why do you guys gloss over wrongly translated materials. Do you not think wrong translation is a sin 

I think I told you already not to post his vid as proof since you should be posting hisi website address

Edited October 23, 2016 by A true Sunni

[Haydar Husayn]

There are plenty of people in Iraq that use swords to cut themselves, and plenty of scholars who encourage it. I'm not in favour of these practices, but let's not delude ourselves into thinking they don't have scholarly backing.

[A true Sunni]

14 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

There are plenty of people in Iraq that use swords to cut themselves, and plenty of scholars who encourage it. I'm not in favour of these practices, but let's not delude ourselves into thinking they don't have scholarly backing.

They have some scholarly backing it

some allowing it with caution

All I ask is that they stop faking, misquoting and using outdated videoclips. Its an attempt to tell people it has a wider endorsement then it has.

If they had 100 let alone 100 why would they need to fake fatwas such as in Azadari4Imam or post outdated videoclips.

Most of the 1000s of fatwas are all about Azadari not blood letting so yet more lies

Sorry everyone should now check and counter check each claim by these blood letters. So many lies

Edited October 23, 2016 by A true Sunni

[Haydar Husayn]

13 minutes ago, A true Sunni said:

They have some scholarly backing it

some allowing it with caution

All I ask is that they stop faking, misquoting and using outdated videoclips. Its an attempt to tell people it has a wider endorsement then it has.

If they had 100 let alone 100 why would they need to fake fatwas such as in Azadari4Imam or post outdated videoclips.

Most of the 1000s of fatwas are all about Azadari not blood letting so yet more lies

Sorry everyone should now check and counter check each claim by these blood letters. So many lies

I agree that nobody should lie or distort the rulings of scholars. My point is that they don't need to.

[haideriam]

19 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

I agree that nobody should lie or distort the rulings of scholars. My point is that they don't need to.

True, they should not have to.

Interestingly he goes on to say that anyone who lies Allah(swt) withdraws His mercy from him, but if one lies on the Masoomeen(as) then one is making a place for himself in hell fire,.

Out of curiosity How was Zanjir with blades zani part of our culture pre our brothers doing it in the Indo Pak subcontinent, ? 

Edited October 24, 2016 by haideriam

[A true Sunni]

1 hour ago, Haydar Husayn said:

I agree that nobody should lie or distort the rulings of scholars. My point is that they don't need to.

but never the less they do. so question is why.

Edited October 24, 2016 by A true Sunni

[A true Sunni]

The reason they distort the rulings or exagerate are several fold.

Deceased Marje          Ayatulla Naeenis fatwa has been tampered with

Ayatullah Najafi           Showing outdated vid clip instead of ruling on web page

Ayatullah Khorasani    Not showing all of speech 

Mixing up rulings on Azadari abd blood ketttin

Do you really think there are 1000 pro blood letting fatwas

Someone once posted 60 fatwas claiming they were all pro-blood letting.

After painstakingly taking out the deceased Marje regardless of content and removing all the Azadari fatwas.

I was left with 4. Probably more then 4 in reality but why did the person posting post 56 irrelevant fatwas.

Its called laziness.

I looked at Azadari4Imam with its supposed 80 fatwas . The first one was tampered with and lot of the others were on azadari.

Did I really have time to check out all the others when i saw the first one was faked 

[Spiritual]

Basically problem of my brothers being so active against blood matam, is the HUKUM of Ayatullah Khamenei & the ideology of my brothers that he is wali e faqih as well as hakim e shara'ee. So his hukum is applicable on all Muslims around the world.

With complete due respect for Rehber in my heart, I am not agreed with this. He may be hakim e shara'ee, but only for Iran, not for the whole world. Second thing, I don't like the word "HARAM" with any form of matam in the name of Imam Hussain (a.s). If you declare any form of matam as HARAM, matam, in any form would becomes haram. I think you're not aware that people in India & Pakistan, beats their chest so much, all night & day of Ashura, that their chests starts to bleed. 

People listens, every year, the story of their beloved Imam, knowing that he is syedda shababe ahlul jannah, knowing he is the grandson of Prophet (pbuh), knowing he is the son of Imam Ali a.s & Bibi Fatima s.a, how he was slaughtered in Karabala by so called muslims, how the grand daughters of prophet were taken as prisoners, how the daughter of Imam Hussain a.s died in the prison etc. These news are sufficient to make anyone emotional enough to start hitting himself by any means. 

So I am although not a supporter of blood matam, don't see it as "Haram" act. Two things are key for spreading the message of Imam Hussain a.s, One is Majalis while other is matam (in any form, present today). Some respected Maraje guides brothers to donate blood instead of matam, so that their blood can be used in serving humanity. Well that's a good idea but what if they start guiding that the money you spent for organizing majalis is wastage of money, so better to give that money in charity (sadaqaat & khairaat), by this, your money will be used in service of humanity.

Fact is that, we got proof of Matam from everywhere. It is not mentioned which form of matam is allowable & which is not. So bring an evidence either from Quran or give them any sahih hadith of Masoom, to settle this disputed matter. Discussing the same old dispute, so many times, in so many threads is useless & waste of time.

 

Edited October 24, 2016 by Spiritual

[Spiritual]

12 hours ago, Jawid Akbari said:

Thus, we see there are two cultural settings and two significations for one word. The mujtahid means one thing and the recipient of the answer who comes from the Indian sub-continent understands something else.  Here the duty-bound (mukallaf) should suffice to the literal and original meaning of the term "zanjir" which  means chain only.  He cannot take it for knives, blades, daggers and swords. That is what I want my Indian and Pakistani brothers to take notice of.  Allah Hafiz

Salamun Alaikum Brother,

I have a question, since the blood matam has been declared as HARAM by the Rehber and I did the blood matam for 16 years. Should I repent by offering 2 rakah namaz-e-touba, because of my involvement in HARAM act? Secondly, about those MARAJEY who're allowing blood matam, are they allowing for HARAM action? If so, what will be their credibility, why they're still enjoying the MARJIYET, if they're inciting for haram act? 

[A true Sunni]

1 hour ago, Spiritual said:

Basically problem of my brothers being so active against blood matam, is the HUKUM of Ayatullah Khamenei & the ideology of my brothers that he is wali e faqih as well as hakim e shara'ee. So his hukum is applicable on all Muslims around the world.

With complete due respect for Rehber in my heart, I am not agreed with this. He may be hakim e shara'ee, but only for Iran, not for the whole world. Second thing, I don't like the word "HARAM" with any form of matam in the name of Imam Hussain (a.s). If you declare any form of matam as HARAM, matam, in any form would becomes haram. I think you're not aware that people in India & Pakistan, beats their chest so much, all night & day of Ashura, that their chests starts to bleed. 

People listens, every year, the story of their beloved Imam, knowing that he is syedda shababe ahlul jannah, knowing he is the grandson of Prophet (pbuh), knowing he is the son of Imam Ali a.s & Bibi Fatima s.a, how he was slaughtered in Karabala by so called muslims, how the grand daughters of prophet were taken as prisoners, how the daughter of Imam Hussain a.s died in the prison etc. These news are sufficient to make anyone emotional enough to start hitting himself by any means. 

So I am although not a supporter of blood matam, don't see it as "Haram" act. Two things are key for spreading the message of Imam Hussain a.s, One is Majalis while other is matam (in any form, present today). Some respected Maraje guides brothers to donate blood instead of matam, so that their blood can be used in serving humanity. Well that's a good idea but what if they start guiding that the money you spent for organizing majalis is wastage of money, so better to give that money in charity (sadaqaat & khairaat), by this, your money will be used in service of humanity.

Fact is that, we got proof of Matam from everywhere. It is not mentioned which form of matam is allowable & which is not. So bring an evidence either from Quran or give them any sahih hadith of Masoom, to settle this disputed matter. Discussing the same old dispute, so many times, in so many threads is useless & waste of time.

 

Thats why you have a website Azadari4Imam with faked fatwas

Thats why you have so many anti-Iran threads on here by certain types of individuals

Blood letting caused by emotion- who are you trying to fool-Blood letting is not about emotion.

When you stop replying to the garbage against the Ahlul Bait you become party to the garbage 

Edited October 24, 2016 by A true Sunni

[Sirius_Bright]

I fail to understand one thing. When a muqallid asks his muqallad about 'zanjeer zani' he understands as zanjeer without blades. But he sees people in Najaf and Karbala doing zanjeer with blades. Why he's not stopping them?. Why don't he understand that a particular person may be asking about 'zanjeer zanji' referring to zanjeer with blades. Or the mujtahid should better understand it as zanjeer with blades because this thing is more prevalent than zanjeer without blades in all over the world even in his city (Najaf and Karbala).

[Spiritual]

33 minutes ago, A true Sunni said:

Thats why you have a website Azadari4Imam with faked fatwas

Thats why you have so many anti-Iran threads on here by certain types of individuals

 

Ignorance is at its peak! here on this thread, you have an interview of Ayatullah Bashir Najafi, are you blind & deaf?

No one is anti Iran, it is your ideology which is making people anti Iran. Stop doing tatbeer, otherwise you're anti Iran, what a childish behavior is that!

 

33 minutes ago, A true Sunni said:

Blood letting caused by emotion- who are you trying to fool-Blood letting is not about emotion.

No one can make fool, a fool. Blood matam is not like the fashion e.g., tattooing, if emotions are not involved in matam, it is not a matam in anyway. You cannot understand the logic & reasoning ability.

33 minutes ago, A true Sunni said:

When you stop replying to the garbage against the Ahlul Bait you become party to the garbage 

Actually, garbage is you and your ideology. People were doing blood matam from hundreds of years, you're declaring their actions as HARAM, if anyone do haram act, he has to repent. What procedure you're suggesting for offering repentance? free 10 slave, or fast for 20 days or just offer 2 rakah namaz e touba?  

Instead of bringing any evidence from Quran or from hadith against blood matam, you preferred to throw absurd comments which are like GARBAGE.

 

Edited October 24, 2016 by Spiritual

[A true Sunni]

55 minutes ago, Spiritual said:

Ignorance is at its peak! here on this thread, you have an interview of Ayatullah Bashir Najafi, are you blind & deaf?

No one is anti Iran, it is your ideology which is making people anti Iran. Stop doing tatbeer, otherwise you're anti Iran, what a childish behavior is that!

 

No one can make fool, a fool. Blood matam is not like the fashion e.g., tattooing, if emotions are not involved in matam, it is not a matam in anyway. You cannot understand the logic & reasoning ability.

Actually, garbage is you and your ideology. People were doing blood matam from hundreds of years, you're declaring their actions as HARAM, if anyone do haram act, he has to repent. What procedure you're suggesting for offering repentance? free 10 slave, or fast for 20 days or just offer 2 rakah namaz e touba?  

Instead of bringing any evidence from Quran or from hadith against blood matam, you preferred to throw absurd comments which are like GARBAGE.

 

If you are an Usooli you should know that videoclip is not admissable as evidence.

Loads of Shia malangs oon here are anti-Malang

Blood letting is a fashion thing its only 200 years old. 

If Blood letting isnt garbage why is there a faked fatwa on Azadari4Imam

Why bring evidence to dispute a 200 year old fashion item.

 

[Spiritual]

1 minute ago, A true Sunni said:

Blood letting is a fashion thing its only 200 years old. 

Correct yourself please. If you're talking about fashion, pagan do the blood letting by engraving tattoos on their skin. It is in practice since BC, we are living in AD.

 

3 minutes ago, A true Sunni said:

If Blood letting isnt garbage why is there a faked fatwa on Azadari4Imam

I don't know this website, never visited it nor interested in visiting it.
You know that how many marajey have allowed the Qama & Zanjir Zani, it is available online, but as I mentioned earlier, you have the "hokum" in place , so you have to oppose it by any mean & effort to stop such allegedly HARAM act.

 

4 minutes ago, A true Sunni said:

Why bring evidence to dispute a 200 year old fashion item.

The difference between you & me is that you're watching it as fashion, while I see matam as an emotional action. 

If matam in the name of Imam Hussain is fashion & you're satisfied with its declaration of becoming "haram", you should be surprised to see the fashion of tattooing, procedure of printing pictures or drawings in the inner skin which cause the body to bleed,  a pagan act, declared as halal.

Anyway, I don't want debate for debate, you don't have any point with you, so discussing this disputed matter with you is a waste of time.

Allah Hafiz





 

[A true Sunni]

19 minutes ago, Spiritual said:

Correct yourself please. If you're talking about fashion, pagan do the blood letting by engraving tattoos on their skin. It is in practice since BC, we are living in AD.

 

I don't know this website, never visited it nor interested in visiting it.
You know that how many marajey have allowed the Qama & Zanjir Zani, it is available online, but as I mentioned earlier, you have the "hokum" in place , so you have to oppose it by any mean & effort to stop such allegedly HARAM act.

 

The difference between you & me is that you're watching it as fashion, while I see matam as an emotional action. 

If matam in the name of Imam Hussain is fashion & you're satisfied with its declaration of becoming "haram", you should be surprised to see the fashion of tattooing, procedure of printing pictures or drawings in the inner skin which cause the body to bleed,  a pagan act, declared as halal.

Anyway, I don't want debate for debate, you don't have any point with you, so discussing this disputed matter with you is a waste of time.

Allah Hafiz





 

Emotion which the Ahlul Bait never asked for.

In order to justify that 'emotion' fatwas are faked

in order to justify that 'emotion' they use sunni narrations

in order to justify that 'emotion' they use contradictory narrations

in order to justify that 'emotion' they use vilolence against fellow Shias

In order to justify 'emotion' they pretend to be Usooli

In order to justify 'emotion' they choose a Marja who allows it

In order to justify 'emotion' they malign the Ahlul Bait

In order to justify 'emotion' they break Usooli rules on fatwa.

Exagerate number of fatwas from Marja allowing blood letting . People on here claiming anything from 80-1000

I have seen 3 that unequivacally support it and 4 that allow it but with stipulations. I am sure thee are a few more but noone seems to post them 

thats just a few bits of nonsense I can think of, of the top of my head. But so many more...

Edited October 24, 2016 by A true Sunni

[Spiritual]

@A true Sunni

I don't know how you can describe this verse, where prophet Musa a.s is ordering people to kill themselves:

وَإِذْ قَالَ مُوسَىٰ لِقَوْمِهِ يَا قَوْمِ إِنَّكُمْ ظَلَمْتُمْ أَنفُسَكُم بِاتِّخَاذِكُمُ الْعِجْلَ فَتُوبُوا إِلَىٰ بَارِئِكُمْ فَاقْتُلُوا أَنفُسَكُمْ ذَٰلِكُمْ خَيْرٌ لَّكُمْ عِندَ بَارِئِكُمْ فَتَابَ عَلَيْكُمْ ۚ إِنَّهُ هُوَ التَّوَّابُ الرَّحِيمُ

(2:54)
(And [recall] when Moses said to his people, "O my people, indeed you have wronged yourselves by your taking of the calf [for worship]. So repent to your Creator and kill yourselves. That is best for [all of] you in the sight of your Creator." Then He accepted your repentance; indeed, He is the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful.)

You should cry on your intellect, hey what is this!!!! Prophet Musa (a.s) is ordering people for suicide????? haram act???? shed your own blood to repent??????

If you can do me a favor, just let me know how should I repent for that haram act, which I did for 16 years? I will appreciate your response on this matter.
 

[A true Sunni]

9 minutes ago, Spiritual said:

@A true Sunni

I don't know how you can describe this verse, where prophet Musa a.s is ordering people to kill themselves:

وَإِذْ قَالَ مُوسَىٰ لِقَوْمِهِ يَا قَوْمِ إِنَّكُمْ ظَلَمْتُمْ أَنفُسَكُم بِاتِّخَاذِكُمُ الْعِجْلَ فَتُوبُوا إِلَىٰ بَارِئِكُمْ فَاقْتُلُوا أَنفُسَكُمْ ذَٰلِكُمْ خَيْرٌ لَّكُمْ عِندَ بَارِئِكُمْ فَتَابَ عَلَيْكُمْ ۚ إِنَّهُ هُوَ التَّوَّابُ الرَّحِيمُ

(2:54)
(And [recall] when Moses said to his people, "O my people, indeed you have wronged yourselves by your taking of the calf [for worship]. So repent to your Creator and kill yourselves. That is best for [all of] you in the sight of your Creator." Then He accepted your repentance; indeed, He is the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful.)

You should cry on your intellect, hey what is this!!!! Prophet Musa (a.s) is ordering people for suicide????? haram act???? shed your own blood to repent??????

If you can do me a favor, just let me know how should I repent for that haram act, which I did for 16 years? I will appreciate your response on this matter.
 

So what are you now claiming that Shias killed Imam Hussain(as) and should blood let as repentance.

Took Yazid as their master and wronged Imam Hussain (as) 

( i am being sarcastic mate btw)

You sure you arent a Sunni in disguise.

Edited October 24, 2016 by A true Sunni

[Spiritual]

2 minutes ago, A true Sunni said:

Emotion which the Ahlul Bait never asked for.

In order to justify that 'emotion' fatwas are faked

in order to justify that 'emotion' they use sunni narrations

in order to justify that 'emotion' they use contradictory narrations

in order to justify that 'emotion' they use vilolence against fellow Shias

In order to justify 'emotion' they pretend to be Usooli

In order to justify 'emotion' they choose a Marja who allows it

In order to justify 'emotion' they malign the Ahlul Bait

In order to justify 'emotion' they break Usooli rules on fatwa.

Exagerate number of fatwas from Marja allowing blood letting . People on here claiming anything from 80-1000

I have seen 3 that unequivacally support it and 4 that allow it but with stipulations. I am sure thee are a few more but noone seems to post them 

thats just a few bits of nonsense I can think of, of the top of my head. But so many more...

In order to implement "HUKUM" of your "Hakim e Shara'ee", you're crossing the limits.
In order to implement "HUKUM", you're calling matam as fashion.
In order to implement "HUKUM", you are present everywhere blood matam is discussed.

I am not going to impress, brother. Bring a verse or a hadith against blood matam.

[A true Sunni]

6 minutes ago, Spiritual said:

In order to implement "HUKUM" of your "Hakim e Shara'ee", you're crossing the limits.
In order to implement "HUKUM", you're calling matam as fashion.
In order to implement "HUKUM", you are present everywhere blood matam is discussed.

I am not going to impress, brother. Bring a verse or a hadith against blood matam.

I called blood letting a fashion . Lying is also a sin

[Spiritual]

2 minutes ago, A true Sunni said:

So what are you now claiming that Shias killed Imam Hussain(as) and should blood let as repentance.

Took Yazid as their master and wronged Imam Hussain (as) 

( i am being sarcastic mate btw)

You sure you arent a Sunni in disguise.

Quoting your comment, just to save them, so that people can witness your intellectual dishonesty.

[A true Sunni]

10 minutes ago, Spiritual said:

Quoting your comment, just to save them, so that people can witness your intellectual dishonesty.

Just taking your quote to its logical conclusion .

Prophet Moses told his people to kill themselves for worshipping the golden calf.

What great sin have the 'shias' done to blood let.

See what I mean about posting nonsense arguments and analogies

Think before you post 

Edited October 24, 2016 by A true Sunni

[Spiritual]

1 minute ago, A true Sunni said:

Prophet Moses told his people to kill themselves for worshipping the golden calf.

Let me quote here what I said about this:

 

9 minutes ago, Spiritual said:

I don't know how you can describe this verse, where prophet Musa a.s is ordering people to kill themselves:

So you instead of describing it, draw absurd conclusion from my side, without my permission. Do you know what is in my mind? How can you claim that when I do blood matam, I am doing a fashion?

Your Intellectual Dishonesty PROVED.

[Spiritual]

5 minutes ago, A true Sunni said:

Prophet Moses told his people to kill themselves for worshipping the golden calf.

Why Prophet Musa (a.s) or his true followers are not killing them? Why it is asked to those mushrikeen to kill themselves?

Have you ever tried to read the tafsir of this verse? Those mushrikeens did killed themselves:

ثُمَّ بَعَثْنَاكُم مِّن بَعْدِ مَوْتِكُمْ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَشْكُرُونَ
Then We revived you after your death that perhaps you would be grateful.
2:56

Drawing conclusion on my behalf is unjust, I have not given this verse in defense of blood matam, it has nothing to do with that. I only asked you to explain, why Prophet Mosas called those mushrikoon to kill themselves instead of killing them in punishment? And how loyal were those mushrikoon to Musas that they killed themselves & finally Allah has accepted their repentance!
 

[DigitalUmmah]

11 hours ago, A true Sunni said:

Far from it I corrected a mistranslation. So you agree that it was wrongly translated . The guy is from India surely he would know 'zara sa qatra means' . Why do you guys gloss over wrongly translated materials. Do you not think wrong translation is a sin 

put your pitchfork and lynch rope down, cleetus.

he didn't mistranslate anything, you both are saying the same thing just in different ways, bright spark. 

11 hours ago, A true Sunni said:

I think I told you already not to post his vid as proof since you should be posting hisi website address

his out of date, unmanaged website that's not been updated for years and years? ive got a better idea - how about I dont?

and secondly - are you (again) trying to tell us all that the fatwa on his website which says "it is permissable" is your proof that it is not permissable? 

Edited October 24, 2016 by DigitalUmmah

[A true Sunni]

10 minutes ago, Spiritual said:

Why Prophet Musa (a.s) or his true followers are not killing them? Why it is asked to those mushrikeen to kill themselves?

Have you ever tried to read the tafsir of this verse? Those mushrikeens did killed themselves:

ثُمَّ بَعَثْنَاكُم مِّن بَعْدِ مَوْتِكُمْ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَشْكُرُونَ
Then We revived you after your death that perhaps you would be grateful.
2:56

Drawing conclusion on my behalf is unjust, I have not given this verse in defense of blood matam, it has nothing to do with that. I only asked you to explain, why Prophet Mosas called those mushrikoon to kill themselves instead of killing them in punishment? And how loyal were those mushrikoon to Musas that they killed themselves & finally Allah has accepted their repentance!
 

I am ignoring the rest of your indignant post and just highlighting one bit. What exactly are you suggesting the Shias are punishing themselves about.

You posted the analogy and proof. Please explain

[A true Sunni]

7 minutes ago, DigitalUmmah said:

put your pitchfork and lynch rope down, cleetus.

he didn't mistranslate anything, you both are saying the same thing just in different ways, bright spark. 

how out of date, unmanaged website that's not been updated for years and years? ive got a better idea - how about I dont?

and secondly - are you (again) trying to tell us all that the fatwa on his website which says "it is permissable" is your proof that it is not permissable? 

DU you reappear again with your old worn out arguments, We discussed this before over several threads. You alreday know the answer to it. Why revisit it and try and discredit Ayatullah Najafi

[DigitalUmmah]

Just now, A true Sunni said:

DU you reappear again with your old worn out arguments, We discussed this before over several threads. You alreday know the answer to it. Why revisit it and try and discredit Ayatullah Najafi

lol wut

its a statement of fact - his website is in no way being managed properly. 

look for yourself:

https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.alnajafi.org/

it seems his office has directed its focus is on his Facebook page which is certainly more active

[A true Sunni]

It occurs to me that you are a Malang and a Syed . Certainly not an Usooli. However if you were an Usooli could/would you do Taqleed to a non-Syed.

Real Usoolis of course would have no problem with Taqleed to Ayatullah Najafi but how about you, since you are so fond of quoting him

Edited October 24, 2016 by A true Sunni

[Spiritual]

38 minutes ago, A true Sunni said:

I am ignoring the rest of your indignant post and just highlighting one bit. What exactly are you suggesting the Shias are punishing themselves about.

You posted the analogy and proof. Please explain

Continue to display your intellectual dishonesty, it was asked from you to explain the verse 2:54. I am quoting my comment once again:

 

1 hour ago, Spiritual said:

I don't know how you can describe this verse, where prophet Musa a.s is ordering people to kill themselves:

وَإِذْ قَالَ مُوسَىٰ لِقَوْمِهِ يَا قَوْمِ إِنَّكُمْ ظَلَمْتُمْ أَنفُسَكُم بِاتِّخَاذِكُمُ الْعِجْلَ فَتُوبُوا إِلَىٰ بَارِئِكُمْ فَاقْتُلُوا أَنفُسَكُمْ ذَٰلِكُمْ خَيْرٌ لَّكُمْ عِندَ بَارِئِكُمْ فَتَابَ عَلَيْكُمْ ۚ إِنَّهُ هُوَ التَّوَّابُ الرَّحِيمُ

(2:54)
(And [recall] when Moses said to his people, "O my people, indeed you have wronged yourselves by your taking of the calf [for worship]. So repent to your Creator and kill yourselves. That is best for [all of] you in the sight of your Creator." Then He accepted your repentance; indeed, He is the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful.)

You should cry on your intellect, hey what is this!!!! Prophet Musa (a.s) is ordering people for suicide????? haram act???? shed your own blood to repent??????

If you can do me a favor, just let me know how should I repent for that haram act, which I did for 16 years? I will appreciate your response on this matter.

For me this is the only place where shedding blood "FOR A GOOD CAUSE" is allowed in Quran.

I call all my brothers to check the meaning of this verse very carefully, don't get confused with what shirk the followers of Mosas commit, see that what has been said by a "MASOOM" here. That "MASOOM" is not punishing them, rather asking them to shed your blood & kill yourself. What else? After they killed themselves, Allah has made them alive (2:56) and not only made them alive, but feed them the "MUN O SALWA" (2:57)

What is that good cause? "SO REPENT to your Creator"
Action: Kill yourself
Result: Then He accepted your repentance.

@A True Sunni , you have been busted
 

Edited October 24, 2016 by Spiritual

[Jawid Akbari]

Please allow me to clarify one thing. None of the prominent Shiite religious authorities has ever said that "Qama-zani" (tatbir) is obligatory. On the contrary many scholars have said that it is forbidden because it destroys the peace-loving image of Islam and Shi'ism.  Islam is a non-violent religion and "Qama-zani" plays havoc with all the efforts made by some Muslims to depict Islam as a religion of peace and mercy.  What is the middle way? The middle way is "ihtiyat" (precaution).

If you entertain doubt whether "Qama-zani" is allowed or disallowed, the precaution is to avoid it because you know that it is not wajib but you are not certain about it being haram (forbidden). Ihtiyat (precaution) is a wise and prudent step that you can take about things you entertain doubt about.  Do not measure your deeds by the actions of the mob. If thousands of people take to the streets and lash themselves with blades and knives, it does not mean it is permissible to do so. If thousands of people smoke weeds and gamble, does it mean smoking hashish and gambling are permissible? No, it does not. You should not get carried away. Always follow the most qualified Mujtahid.

Edited October 24, 2016 by Jawid Akbari

[Sirius_Bright]

^Most qualified Mujtahid respected Ayatullah Seestani is neutral about this matter so lets follow Ayatullah wahid khorasani, Safi Gulpayegani or Bashir Najafi. And I think all of them allow, doesn't matter how much 'true Sunni' opposes it.