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Nadia.

Question about sufis

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salam,

I have heard from someone that the sufi sheikhs believe that they are in contact with Allah swt, is this true? And if so, what type of contact? Do they say they talk directly to Allah and he answers or is it something else? Because anyone who prays or makes du'aa is in contact with Allah so I would like to understand this concept a bit better (if such a thing exists in sufism).

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8 hours ago, Ozzy said:

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله

They claim that they see Rasulullah صلى الله عليه وآله in their living state and dream state advising them how to help the Ummah (by starting charity organisations, writing books etc). They say this is through the excessive salawat especially on Friday nights.

جزاك اللهُ خيرًا, thank you I didn't know that

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Salam

.According to Quran (shuara 51) God does not speak to any human except from revelation (in its special ways) and it belongs to the prophets only, not the others.

But if they mean asking god and getting answered it needs no special character. Quran (Esra 20) says: To these and to those—to all We extend the bounty of your Lord, and the bounty of your Lord is not confined. 

Now the question is that what do they seek by telling about these? they invite people to themselves or to the pure religion of the prophets?

 

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13 hours ago, Nadia. said:

salam,

I have heard from someone that the sufi sheikhs believe that they are in contact with Allah swt, is this true? And if so, what type of contact? Do they say they talk directly to Allah and he answers or is it something else? Because anyone who prays or makes du'aa is in contact with Allah so I would like to understand this concept a bit better (if such a thing exists in sufism).

Walaikuam assalaam,

Not necessarily, actually I would say a handful make that claim.

As Ozzy stated, many experience inspirational "dreams" of where they see the Prophet SAW which then influences their actions.  By that contact through the Prophet SAW in dreams, the Prophet SAW is in contact with Allah Swt. 

I believe it is for both Sunni and Shia's that there exists hadith regarding if one see's the Prophet SAW in a dream, that it is for certain that they've seen him for Satan cannot take his shape.  So, it would not be "Direct" contact, no. Even Allah SWT communicated to the prophet's through an Angel such as Jibreel.

But there exists the question if a person is lying about having that dream for some type of personal gain/attention or fame seeking to get their sufi lodges populated. These are the sufi's that claim to see Allah SWT in a living state, and make some outlandish statements.

For the most part from history, these sufis were inviting people to Islam.  One such case is Sheikh Nazim al Haqqani, of the Naqshbandi sufi order.  He was very well known for his exceptional gift of spreading in Da3wah and has converted hundreds if not thousands of Non-Arab/South Asian people.  @zamzam*

However, it's deplorable that such great personalities such as Nazim has that wasilyah/intercession be done through himself (before his passing).

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2 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

Walaikuam assalaam,

Not necessarily, actually I would say a handful make that claim.

As Ozzy stated, many experience inspirational "dreams" of where they see the Prophet SAW which then influences their actions.  By that contact through the Prophet SAW in dreams, the Prophet SAW is in contact with Allah Swt. 

I believe it is for both Sunni and Shia's that there exists hadith regarding if one see's the Prophet SAW in a dream, that it is for certain that they've seen him for Satan cannot take his shape.  So, it would not be "Direct" contact, no. Even Allah SWT communicated to the prophet's through an Angel such as Jibreel.

But there exists the question if a person is lying about having that dream for some type of personal gain/attention or fame seeking to get their sufi lodges populated. These are the sufi's that claim to see Allah SWT in a living state, and make some outlandish statements.

For the most part from history, these sufis were inviting people to Islam.  One such case is Sheikh Nazim al Haqqani, of the Naqshbandi sufi order.  He was very well known for his exceptional gift of spreading in Da3wah and has converted hundreds if not thousands of Non-Arab/South Asian people.  @zamzam*

However, it's deplorable that such great personalities such as Nazim has that wasilyah/intercession be done through himself (before his passing).

جزاك اللهُ خيرًا

I find sufism really interested and I'm planning on writing a book with a sufi character in it so I didn't want to get anything wrong. Also, about the Sheikh you mentioned, I always wondered why sufism is quite popular in South Asia and now I have a potential answer, thanks :)

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1 hour ago, Nadia. said:

جزاك اللهُ خيرًا

I find sufism really interested and I'm planning on writing a book with a sufi character in it so I didn't want to get anything wrong. Also, about the Sheikh you mentioned, I always wondered why sufism is quite popular in South Asia and now I have a potential answer, thanks :)

Sufism came to South Asia from wandering sufi masters looking to convert and spread islam.  Many of these sufis such as Lal Shabazz Qalandar, and others did more than spread faith, such as bring peace to quarelling parties.  They acted as Mediators and brought two enemies together.

Many of them were Sayyids.

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On ‎10‎/‎15‎/‎2016 at 10:58 AM, wmehar2 said:

Sufism came to South Asia from wandering sufi masters looking to convert and spread islam.  Many of these sufis such as Lal Shabazz Qalandar, and others did more than spread faith, such as bring peace to quarelling parties.  They acted as Mediators and brought two enemies together.

Many of them were Sayyids.

Salaam alaikum,

I remember reading somewhere that some of these Sufi masters were Isma'ili Imams/Da'is incognito.  Have you come across that? I ask because the Isma'ilis seem to me to be more like a tariqah than anything else.

May Allah (swt) always bless and watch over you,

r

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2 hours ago, reisiger said:

Salaam alaikum,

I remember reading somewhere that some of these Sufi masters were Isma'ili Imams/Da'is incognito.  Have you come across that? I ask because the Isma'ilis seem to me to be more like a tariqah than anything else.

May Allah (swt) always bless and watch over you,

r

Wa Alaikum asalaam

To be honest that's the first I've ever heard of that.

The ones I've met and heard of didn't seem to share ismaili characteristics.  

I couldn't tell ya.  I can't undrstand why they would be incognito as sufis, then again technically a sufi isn't necessarily a different sect.

I've heard of few nizari Muslims in south asIA however. Worth looking into.

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2 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

Wa Alaikum asalaam

To be honest that's the first I've ever heard of that.

The ones I've met and heard of didn't seem to share ismaili characteristics.  

I couldn't tell ya.  I can't undrstand why they would be incognito as sufis, then again technically a sufi isn't necessarily a different sect.

I've heard of few nizari Muslims in south asIA however. Worth looking into.

Believe it or not, I found a story on it.  Seems like a post Alamut thing.  Check it out (if you like) :)

http:// https://ismailimail.wordpress.com/2015/12/25/during-the-anjundan-period-nizari-imams-took-on-sufi-names

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Sufi's people in the concept of Bayah (allegiance) to the Shaykh, the initiation requires on to recite the Kalma and pledge allegience to them.  Imam of the time , "Imam Mahdi Al Muntadhir" and to RasulAllah and his AhlulBayt, they all believe that the Shaykh shares a spiritual connection with their mureeds and i know this first hand that alot of them believe in the 12 Imams. 

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Salam

Some sufis have astonishing beliefs for Muslims. They claim:

Imam Ali (as) and the Holy Prophet (saw) were God (God forbid)

Drinking is allowed

No hijab

No daily prayer at masjid 

God, Ali and Muhammad are the same (God forbid) aka Ali-Haqq-Muhammad

Prayer to images of Imams allowed (God forbid. This position is supported by the late Sayyid al-Hakim)

 

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On ‎12‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 11:50 AM, Mansur Bakhtiari said:

Salam

Some sufis have astonishing beliefs for Muslims. They claim:

Imam Ali (as) and the Holy Prophet (saw) were God (God forbid)

Drinking is allowed

No hijab

No daily prayer at masjid 

God, Ali and Muhammad are the same (God forbid) aka Ali-Haqq-Muhammad

Prayer to images of Imams allowed (God forbid. This position is supported by the late Sayyid al-Hakim)

 

Salaam alaikum,

One of my favorite lecturers, and he is a Sufi-  Shaykh Noorudeen Durkee calls the so-called Sufis you are describing the "goofy-Sufis." The path of Tariqah is not (in my unscholarly opinion) is not intended to replace the Sharia; it is intended to enrich it and shed light upon it. Without the esoteric, the exoteric is just an act, but without the exoteric, the esoteric has nothing in which to take root.

 

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7 hours ago, reisiger said:

Salaam alaikum,

One of my favorite lecturers, and he is a Sufi-  Shaykh Noorudeen Durkee calls the so-called Sufis you are describing the "goofy-Sufis." The path of Tariqah is not (in my unscholarly opinion) is not intended to replace the Sharia; it is intended to enrich it and shed light upon it. Without the esoteric, the exoteric is just an act, but without the exoteric, the esoteric has nothing in which to take root.

 

Yes but sects like Bektashi and others are more similar to Christians then Muslims.

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Sufi Alevis/Bektaşî intrepret the Quran as bâtınî and zahir    

 

Quran does not forbid wine Nahl 67 

God Muhammed Ali is not The same 

Outsiders think otherwise but it means Allah the greatest Muhammed the messengar and Ali the imam 

We don't pray to images, we pray towards İnsanî Kâmil being 

The one whom passed 4 doors and 40 levels

 

 

 

 

 

 

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On Sunday, December 11, 2016 at 4:50 PM, Mansur Bakhtiari said:

Salam

Some sufis have astonishing beliefs for Muslims. They claim:

Imam Ali (as) and the Holy Prophet (saw) were God (God forbid)

Drinking is allowed

No hijab

No daily prayer at masjid 

God, Ali and Muhammad are the same (God forbid) aka Ali-Haqq-Muhammad

Prayer to images of Imams allowed (God forbid. This position is supported by the late Sayyid al-Hakim)

 

Sufi Alevis/Bektaşî intrepret the Quran as bâtınî and zahir    

 

Quran does not forbid wine Nahl 67 

God Muhammed Ali is not The same 

Outsiders think otherwise but it means Allah the greatest Muhammed the messengar and Ali the imam 

We don't pray to images, we pray towards İnsanî Kâmil being 

The one whom passed 4 doors and 40 levels

 

 

 

 

 

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When we pray at home to Allah we face any direction however at eam we face the Dede as the Dede teaches Hz Muhammed and Hz Ali 

Dede represents Hz Muhammed and Hz Ali 

 

The images also represents Hz Ali 

 

 

Edited by AleviTurkmenKhorasan

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Nobody prays towards pictures 

 

We pray in any direction as Allah is everywhere 

 

Also we face the Dede when we are being taught 

Did Hz Muhammed go around the Kabe?

 

Why don't you pray give timesa day as the hadiths say?It's Zoroastrian  

72 virgins Zoroastrian 

Heaven and hell Zoroastrian

 

 

Edited by AleviTurkmenKhorasan

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Allah is not everywhere. He is unlimited, but not everywhere.

As for the prayers, I got this from another website.

  1. Maintain with care the [obligatory] prayers and [in particular] the middle prayer and stand before Allah , devoutly obedient. -- al-Baqara 2:238

  2. And establish prayer at the two ends of the day and at the approach of the night. Indeed, good deeds do away with misdeeds. That is a reminder for those who remember. -- Hud 11:114

  3. O you who have believed, let those whom your right hands possess and those who have not [yet] reached puberty among you ask permission of you [before entering] at three times: before the dawn prayer and when you put aside your clothing [for rest] at noon and after the night prayer. [These are] three times of privacy for you. There is no blame upon you nor upon them beyond these [periods], for they continually circulate among you - some of you, among others. Thus does Allah make clear to you the verses; and Allah is Knowing and Wise. -- an-Nur 24:58

Verse 1 tells us that there is a middle prayer which means there are at least 3 prayers and doesn't mention the exact number of prayers.

Verse 2 tells us that during daylight we have 2 prayers (duhr and a'sr) and one when the night approaches (al-maghrib) (see also this Fatwa in Arabic): With (only) this information it's still possible that we only have 3 prayers, but

Verse 3 which teaches us about the resting times mention clearly the fajr/sobh prayer and the I'sha prayer as the fajr itself is a not mentioned time in the 2 Verses before we find out we really have 5 prayers mentioned in the Quran!

Now we find we have 5 prayers or prayer times mentioned in the Quran.

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This whole needs translating

 


Aleviler Neden Camiye Gitmezler ?
Hz. ALİ Camide mi ŞEHİT Edildi ?
Denilmektedir ki,ey Aleviler, Hz. Ali camiye gidip namaz kılıyordu ve
hatta camide namaz kılarken öldürüldü.O halde siz ne diye 
camiye gitmiyor ve namaz kılmıyorsunuz?
CEVAP :
Bir; Hz. Ali döneminde cami diye bir ibadethane yoktu!
İki; Hz. Ali’nin yaptığı ibadetin bugün Sünni ve Şiilerin kıldığı namazla ilgisi yoktu!
Üç; Hz. Ali’nin camide ve namaz kılarken öldürüldüğü doğru değildir.
Evet, o dönemde cami diye bir ibadethane yoktu.
Nasıl mı? Şöyle;
O dönemde ibadethanelerin adı “ mescid” idi ki halen Arap dünyasında ibadethanelere “mescid” denmektedir. 
Nitekim Kur’an’da da İslam ibadethanesi olarak “büyut / evler”le birlikte mescid ifadesi yer almaktadır. Cami sözcüğü genelde ülkemizde, Kafkasya, Orta Asya ve Balkanlarda kullanılmaktadır. Bununla birlikte cami denildiğinde minareli, kubbeli, minber ve mihraplı mekânlar akla gelmektedir. Oysa Hz. Ali’nin döneminde ve o dönemki Irak coğrafyasında bu şekilde ve bu tarz mimari özellikte mekânlar yoktu. Her ne kadar Halife Ömer döneminde Filistin ve Suriye’nin fethiyle Müslümanlar minare ve kubbe gibi mimari yapıları Hıristiyanlardan görmüş olsalar da bu unsurların İslam mabetlerine taşınması çok sonraki dönemlerde, özellikle de Emevîler döneminde gerçekleşmiştir.
İslam mabetleri, minaresiz, kubbesiz, minber ve mihrapsız mekânlardı. Bu açıdan bakıldığında son derece mütevazı, sade yani gösterişsiz yapılar olan İslam mabetleri günümüzdeki Cem evleriyle büyük ölçüde benzeşen mescidlerdir.
“Hz. Ali camiye gidiyordu, o halde siz de buyurun camiye gelin!” demek apaçık bir demagojidir. Bu demagojiye inanıp camiye gitmeyi gerekli görenler çıkar mı bilmem ama eğer çıkarsa yahut böyle kimseler varsa onlar bilsinler ki, bu iddianın hiçbir tarihsel geçerliliği yoktur. Cami isimli yapılar mimari manada Hıristiyan orijinli ve Emevîlerle özdeşleşmiş mekânlar olup bütün Müslümanların ortak ibadethanesi olabilme vasfından son derece uzaktırlar. 
Bu görüşümüzün yanlış anlaşılmasını asla istemeyiz. 
Zira bize göre her ibadethane değerli ve saygındır. Bu bağlamda camiler de değerli ve saygın mekânlardır. Ancak cami üzerinden Cem evlerini ve Aleviliği itibarsızlaştırma ya da İslam tarihi dışına atma çalışması ve çarpıtmasına karşı bir nevi “nefsi müdafaa” yapma hakkımız gereği bu satırları yazma zorunluluğu hâsıl olmaktadır.
Cem evleri bir İslam mabedi olarak hem Kur’an kaynaklıdır, hem de nebevi sünnete dayanmaktadır. Nur Suresi 35. ve 36. ayetlerde açıkça ibadet edilen evlerden yani günümüz diliyle söylersek Cem evlerinden bahsedilmektedir.
Öte yandan mescid sözü de semantik / anlambilimsel açıdan Cem evi ile örtüşmektedir. Şöyle ki; mescid, secde edilen yer demektedir. Cem evleri de secde edilen yerlerdir. Yani Cem evleri de bir nevi mesciddir. Nitekim Medine’de Hz. Peygamber ve ilk Müslümanlarca yapılan Mescid – i Nebi de o dönemin Cem evidir. 
O halde Hazreti Ali ibadet etmek için camiye değil mescide yani Türkçesini söylersek Cem evine gidiyordu. 
Hazreti Ali’yi camiye sokmak, gerçek dışı bir tarih inşasından başka bir şey değildir.
Açıkça ifade etmek zorundayım: 
Bugünün Cem evleri Hz. Muhammed dönemindeki mescidlerdir. 
Bu hem mimari olarak böyledir hem de fonksiyon itibariyle böyledir. Mimari manadaki benzerliği hatta özdeşliği yukarıda dile getirmiştik. Fonksiyon itibariyle olan benzerlik yahut özdeşlik ise şöyledir:
Peygamberimizin dönemindeki mescidler / mabedler toplumsal yaşamın merkezi idiler. Orada törensel anlamda Tanrı’ya yakarmanın dışında sosyal hayatın neredeyse tüm unsurları yer bulmaktaydı. Hukuki, ahlaki, ticari, sportif konular ve hatta eğlence vb. etkinlikler bile mescidlerin işlevleri arasındaydı. O halde soralım; bugünün camilerinde bu saydıklarımızın hangisi var? Ne acı ki, artık camilerde namaz adı verilen ritüellerden başka neredeyse hiçbir şey yapılmamaktadır.
Peki ya Cem evleri? 
Cem evlerinde hem Tanrı’ya yakarılmakta hem de pek çok kültürel ve sosyal etkinlik icra edilmektedir. Egemen din anlayışının ve onun emrindeki devletin tüm engellemelerine rağmen Cem evlerinde ibadet ve sosyokültürel etkinliklerin dışında dedelerin kılavuzluğuyla bir kısım hukuki meseleler de halledilmekte, dargınlar barıştırılmak da, haksızlığa uğrayanların mağduriyetleri giderilmeye çalışılmakta ve dayanışma içerisinde toplumsal barışın güçlendirilmesine uğraş verilmektedir. Müzik ve enstrüman kursları, paneller, konferanslar, sergiler düzenlenmektedir.
O halde vicdan sahibi olan herkese bir kez daha soralım:
Cem evlerine ibadethane değil demek ilimle, insafla, izanla, vicdanla ve İslam’la izah edilebilir mi?
Gelelim namaz meselesine…
Hazreti Ali, bugün Sünni ve Şii Müslümanların kıldığı gibi mi namaz kılıyordu?
Hazreti Ali, namaz kılarken mi öldürüldü? 
Öncelikle şunu ifade edelim ki, Alevi inancına göre Hazreti Ali ölmüş değildir. O şehit olmuş ve Hakk’a yürümüştür.
Bir kısım Sünni ve Şii çevreler Alevileri namaza ve camiye çekebilmek için, “Hazreti Ali camide namaz kılarken şehit edildi; o bir cami ve namaz şehididir.” demektedirler. Oysa gerçek onların ileri sürdüğü gibi değildir.
Hazreti Ali, Hicretin 40. yılı Ramazan ayının 19. gününün sabahı evinden çıkıp 8 adım atmışken Abdurrahman İbn Mülcem adındaki bir Haricinin zehirli kılıcı ile yaptığı saldırı sonucu yaralanmış, 3 gün boyunca yaralı olarak yatağında yatmış, bu sırada zehir vücuduna yayılmış ve 3. gün yani Ramazanın 21. günü “Kâbe’nin rabbi olan Allah’a hamdolsun ki kurtuldum!” diyerek Hakk’a yürümüştür.
Anlaşılacağı üzere Hazreti Ali, saldırıya uğradığında o sırada henüz mevcut olmayan bir camide bulunuyor değildi ve yine ibadet esnasında iken de bir saldırı ile karşılaşmış değildi.
Peki ya Hazreti Ali nasıl ibadet ediyordu?
İslam dininde adına “salat” denilen bir ibadet biçimi vardır. 
Bu ibadetin unsurları; kıyam yani ayakta durmak, rüku yani öne doğru eğilmek, secde yani yere kapanmak, ka’de yani oturmak, kıraat yani tüm bunları yaparken kur’an’dan ayetler okumaktır.
İşte Hazreti Ali böyle ibadet ediyordu. 
Hazreti Muhammed de böyle ibadet ediyordu. Bu şekilde ibadet etmek bugün Alevi Canlar tarafından da Cem ibadeti adı verilen dini törenlerde aynı biçimde sürdürülmekte yani 
Aleviler Hazreti Muhammed’in ve Hazreti Ali’nin ibadet ettiği gibi ibadet etmektedirler. Cem ibadeti; dara durarak, tecella ve temana ederek, secde ederek, oturarak ve bu bunları yaparken de Kur’an’dan ayetler okuyarak icra edilen bir ibadettir. 
Bu ibadet esnasında Kırkların Cemin de Hazreti Muhammed’den kalma Semah da dönülerek Hakk’a doğru ruhani bir yolculuğa çıkılmakta, Hakk ile Hakk olmak için turna misali manevi asumana kanat çırpılmaktadır.
Mustafa Cemil KILIÇ

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Bu ibadetin unsurları; kıyam yani ayakta durmak, rüku yani öne doğru eğilmek, secde yani yere kapanmak, ka’de yani oturmak, kıraat yani tüm bunları yaparken kur’an’dan ayetler okumaktır.
 

This is the way we pray And we have cem on Thursday and Semah 

 

We also pray to Allah with our hands open I.e. not posturing 

We don't count but we pray everyday 

İt's between Allah and soul 

 

Dedes do zikir and pray to Allah most of the time via tesbih and reading Quran 

Deyişler etc 

 

 

Edited by AleviTurkmenKhorasan

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On 07/02/2017 at 6:50 PM, AleviTurkmenKhorasan said:

Our books were burned so we have "deyisler" and Dede speaking to us from father to son

Then Inshallah you should have some kind of books which narrate from those Ulema.

Like I said earlier, you could make a website with this kind of information.

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