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Abu_Rumaysah

Marriages of imam Hasan (as)

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OP has been responded many times in this thread, but the questions asked to OP have not been answered. 

On 10/9/2016 at 7:00 AM, Abu_Rumaysah said:

Apologize for all brothers and sister, whose questions in this thread I didn't manage to answer yet. I am leaving this thread due to threat to be banned. 

A mature look with open eyes is needed to look the posts in the thread.

WS

 

Edited by skamran110

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On 10/11/2016 at 3:21 AM, Wisdom007 said:

Lol seriously snap out of it and answer the man.........is this the best you can do?  "BAN 'EM!!"

lol I have seen this on here aplenty when no answer can be given

if you cannot answer a simple problem then you have no firm ground to stand on........BAN KULAYNI first!!!

bro rumaysah brilliant thread, the only answer is........BANNED

LOL

He was answered several times and the thread was re-opened.

The question still stands - why is Imam Ali admonishing the people and not his son? Was Imam Ali unfair or biased? If so, that would mean he is not a RASHID Khalifa?

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On 10/7/2016 at 11:09 PM, Abu_Rumaysah said:

First of all, I'd like to cite some reports from shia sources, where basically one masoom warns people from marriage with other masoom.

Kulayni narrated in “Kafi” (5/56) via his own chain, and MAJLISI SAID IT’S MUWATHAQ.

حُمَيْدُ بْنُ زِيَادٍ عَنِ الْحَسَنِ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ سَمَاعَةَ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ زِيَادِ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ سِنَانٍ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ( عليه السلام ) قَالَ إِنَّ عَلِيّاً قَالَ وَ هُوَ عَلَى الْمِنْبَرِ لَا تُزَوِّجُوا الْحَسَنَ فَإِنَّهُ رَجُلٌ مِطْلَاقٌ فَقَامَ رَجُلٌ مِنْ هَمْدَانَ فَقَالَ بَلَى وَ اللَّهِ لَنُزَوِّجَنَّهُ وَ هُوَ ابْنُ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) وَ ابْنُ أَمِيرِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ( عليه السلام ) فَإِنْ شَاءَ أَمْسَكَ وَ إِنْ شَاءَ طَلَّقَ .

From Abu Abdullah (alaihi salam) which said: Ali (alaihi salam) said, and he was on the minbar: do not give in marriage, your daughters to Hasan for he divorces very soon.’ a man from the hamdân clan said: ‘by Allâh, we shall give our daughters to him in marriage. those he likes, let him keep; and those he dislikes, divorce.

This is the only strong narration in al-Kafi to this affect according to `Allamah al-Majlisi. al-Majlisi said in Mir'at al-`Uqool, Volume 21:

الحديث الرابع : موثق.

The hadith is muwathaq.

However, there are some reasons for doubt. Al-Hasan b. Muhammad b. Sama`a narrates mostly mursal chains in al-Kafi (except for this one and a few others). Furthermore, Humayd b. Ziyad and al-Hasan b. Muhammad b. Sama`a are both Waqifi shaykhs, and so this narration does not have the status of an Imami narration. InshaAllah brother @Cake can look at this narration and give his verdict.

The other narration quoted in the original post from al-Kafi is weak according to Majlisi, and Wasa'il quoted the same one. The narration in Mustadrak does not have a chain, and is therefore weak. For an issue that may have affected hundreds of families, there are surprisingly few proofs for it.

---

Nonetheless, let's discuss the matn anyway.

The subject itself is strange for various reasons. These reports are written no earlier than the 3rd century AH. Different sources give different accounts to the amount of women Imam al-Hasan married (50, 70, 215, 300, 90, all in the original post), which shows a lot of uncertainty in the story. On top of that, in Ibn Abi Shaybah's Musannaf, the Imam would gift each woman 100 servants and 1,000 dirhams ( عن ابن سيرين قال تزوج الحسن بن علي إمرأة فأرسل إليها بمائة جارية مع كل جارية ألف درهم), which would be impossible if he was marrying hundreds of women. According to al-Waqidi (d. 230 AH), Imam al-Hasan had 24 children, which does not sound like a man that married hundreds of women. When you account for divorce laws, some basic math will show that even 50 marriages (the lowest number) would have been impossible. Who were these women, what were their names?

The tendency in Sunni books is to increase the number of divorces, without having sahih proofs - why do they jump to taint the Master of the Youth of Paradise and the one most similar to the Prophet? It's not impossible that the motive of these exaggerations was to weaken the legitimacy of Nafs al-Zakiyya and Fatima's descendants in general.

Even if we were to say that Amir al-Mu'mineen's rebuke was historically accurate: divorce is very makrooh, but it is not haram, and it does not contradict `isma. Allah has protected the Ahl al-Bayt from uncleanliness (33:33), and divorce is not rijs or khabeeth. The ma`sumeen are capable of tark al-awla. Secondly, here is Majlisi's comment on the hadith:

ولعل غرضه عليه‌السلام كان استعلام حالهم ومراتب إيمانهم لا الإنكار على ولده المعصوم المؤيد من الحي القيوم.

And perhaps his purpose [for this narration] was to know their status and the rank of their faith, rather than to cast doubt upon his son, who is immaculate and supported by the Living and the Everlasting.

And this is a key issue: if he did divorce frequently, we do not know the reasoning. Majlisi is suggesting that Amir al-Mu'mineen was testing the people, and the people responded by saying that al-Hasan can marry and divorce whoever he wants. In some versions of the narration, Amir al-Mu'mineen is happy with this response; which shows that he was not really rebuking his son.

If he was marrying large amounts of women and divorcing them in the same year, then he probably was not consummating those marriages, which means that those marriages were not for sex or for children. If he was giving sums of money and houses to his short-term wives, then perhaps his intention was to help these ladies. Perhaps the daughters of the men in that particular majlis were looking for a different kind of marriage arrangement. I also see no issue with al-Husayn being more patient in mundane marital issues than al-Hasan. In the end, Imam al-Hasan was the most similar person to the Prophet, and so if he was marrying frequently, I do not doubt that he had good and pure intentions for the marriages.

It is unanimous that Amir al-Mu'mineen selected Imam al-Hasan for the Caliphate, which means that he believed that his son was the most qualified person in the Umma to lead it in all of its affairs. This designation outweighs everything.

 

On 10/7/2016 at 11:09 PM, Abu_Rumaysah said:

Also another delusion that ahlalbayt lived in poverty.

 

Upon his death, Umar gave his children the equivalent of 193 million U.S dollars. This does not include the inheritance given to wives, gifts, or debts subtracted before this final sum.

Upon his death, Ali [a] only left $2,100 behind.

Both from sahih narrations. Reference: "Ali: The Best of the Sahabah: Explicit Testimonies of Sahih Sunni Ahadith", by Toyib Olawuyi, page 165-169.

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1 hour ago, Cake said:

Salam.

There are three musnad hadiths for this in the books of the Imamiyya:

Al-Kafi: A number of our companions from Ahmad b. Muhammad from Muhammad b. Isma`il b. Bazi` from Ja`far b. Bashir from Yahya b. Abi al-`Ala' from Abi `Abdillah (a). He said: al-Hasan b. `Ali (a) divorced fifty women. So, `Ali rose in Kufa and said: O population of Kufa, do not marry al-Hasan for he is a frequent-divorcer. So, a man stood up to him and said: No, by Allah, we will surely marry them (fem.) to him, for he is the son of the Messenger of Allah and the son of Fatimah (a). So if she pleases him, he holds on(to her), and if he detests (her), he divorces (her).

Al-Kafi: Humayd b. Ziyad from al-Hasan b. Muhammad b. Sama`ah from Muhammad b. Ziyad b. `Isa from `Abdullah b. Sinan from Abi `Abdillah (a). He said: `Ali said - whilst he was on the pulpit: Do not wed al-Hasan, for he is a frequent-divorcer. So, a man from Hamdan rose and said: No, by Allah, we will surely wed them (fem.) to him. He is the son of the Messenger of Allah and the son of Amir al-Mu'minin (a). So, if he wills, he holds on(to her), and if he wills, he divorces (her).

Muhammad b. Ziyad b. `Isa is Muhammad b. Abi `Umayr without a doubt. Ibn Abi `Umayr transmitted the book of `Abdullah b. Sinan, which was reported from him by the usual sources, including Ibrahim b. Hashim, Ya`qub b. Yazid, and Ibn Abi al-Khattab. As for the chain of Humayd from al-Hasan b. Muhammad, then it does report the book of `Abdullah b. Sinan through `Abdullah b. Jabalah, however this does not necessarily rule out that it was also reported the book via Ibn Abi `Umayr, because the transmissions from Ibn Abi `Umayr were numerous. Indeed, the chain of Humayd from al-Hasan b. Muhammad from Ibn Abi `Umayr occurs more frequently in al-Kafi than the chain of Humayd from ibn Nuhayk from Ibn Abi `Umayr. In any case, they all are known reporters, one from another. So, there is no weakness apparent in the chain.

And in al-Mahasin: from Ibn Mahbub from `Abdullah b. Sinan from Abi `Abdillah (a). He said: A man went to Amir al-Mu'minin (a) and said to him: I have come to you, seeking-advice: al-Hasan and al-Husayn and `Abdullah b. Ja`far have proposed to me (i.e. for my daughter). So Amir al-Mu'minin (a): The adviser (i.e. himself) is trustworthy. As for al-Hasan, he is a frequent-divorcer of women. But, marry her to al-Husayn, for he is good for your daughter.


As for the content, then it was corroborated by the Sunnis. For example, one of them collected two narrations found in the works of Ibn Abi Shaybah:

Hatim b. Isma`il - Ja`far - his father. He said: `Ali said: O people of Iraq - or (he said), o people of Kufa, do not wed Hasan, for is a frequently-divorcing man.

Hatim - Ja`far - his father. He said: `Ali said: al-Hasan does not cease to wed and divorce (i.e. he continued to do so) until I suspected there to be enemies in the tribes (?).

Similarly, two narrations were cited in the work of Ibn Sa`d, including:

Muhammad b. `Umar - `Ali b. `Umar - his father - `Ali b. Husayn. He said: Hasan b. `Ali was a frequent-divorcer of women. And he used to not separate from a woman except that she would love him.

The first two are fine in their chain, except that Sunnis might complain about the technical disconnect between Muhammad b. Ja`far al-Baqir and `Ali b. Abi Talib (a) heh. As for the two narrated by Ibn Sa`d, they have been weakened on the basis that they are reported by al-Waqidi. And there are other reports, too, in Sunni books.

In a clip, Kamal al-Haydari baselessly blames this notion on fabrications propagated by a smear campaign by Mu`awiyah. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMA6NZGnQoA
But, this is authentic, and, really, it seems that the Imam is to "blame" for spreading this heh.  

This is an example of the importance of having a wholistic methodology, instead of just partially employing a method sometimes. What is established is the greatness of al-Hasan (a). So, is it really conceivable that this would negate that or that the Imams, who were also close to him in lineage, would narrate this in order to disparage him? Similarly, divorce is established as disliked or inappropriate - except when there is a reason for it. Therefore, what naturally comes to my mind - as I later saw it had been stated by others - is that he divorced them because of issues with them. Indeed, this is why Kulayni actually placed his two narrations in the chapter on divorcing women who are unsuitable (بَابُ تَطْلِيقِ الْمَرْأَةِ غَيْرِ الْمُوَافِقَةِ). (His greatness and virtues precludes the possibility that he married and then divorced all of these women for the sake of lust, as pointed in the commentary of al-Kafi).

Of course, people are different. Some people are very picky when it comes to marriage, and so, when they finally wed, they have chosen a good, suitable person and someone compatible with them. Others marry more quickly, and may come to regret their decision later. Similarly, sometimes after marriage, a spouse's true character or behaviour or beliefs or something else is revealed. Their partner can either choose to be patient, or to try - sometimes fruitlessly - to reform them, or to call it quits. It would seem that al-Hasan (a) was of the latter type - someone who married quickly and/or who did not tolerate certain issues that became clear after marriage ( - in contrast to his brother who married relatively far fewer women). This is not a sin, and it should not be found problematic except for those who believe that the Imams were super-infallible super-humans. Moreover, we see in one of the narrations above that the women he divorced would love him - he cannot have been mistreating them in any way, so it is not as if the reason for these divorces was due to a fault in his side.

As for shaykh al-Bahrani saying:
وربما حمل بعضهم هذه الأخبار على ما تقدم في سابقها من سوء خلق في
أولئك النساء أو نحوه مما يوجب أولوية الطلاق ، ولا يخفى بعده ، لأنه لو كان
كذلك لكان عذرا شرعيا ، فكيف ينهى أمير المؤمنين ( عليه السلام ) عن تزويجه والحال كذلك 
He says although maybe some of these narrations are due to significant character defects in these women, or something like that which necessitated (or, I say, permitted divorce), how could Amir al-Mu'minin advise people not to marry al-Hasan (a)? However, that is quite a weak counter, for, some of these same narrations show the eagerness of the people to wed their daughters to al-Hasan (a), which he unsuccessfully attempted to quell so that the divorcing would decrease. There is no necessary implication of blame or lack of justifiable reason on his son's part in his words. Indeed, one of the narrations above shows Amir al-Mu'minin's (a) worry of enemies, (and one should keep in mind the circumstances of his son's death).

Attempts to weaken this historical narrative by calculations, etc. should be paid no attention to, especially in the face of direct, strong, corroborated evidence.
Similarly, as for the attempts to raise problems with the numbers on the basis of their differing, then, their variance is not problematic due to the high number, just as it is also unlikely that al-Hasan (a) married exactly fifty or seventy women or any other round number. We should also be noting the possibility that some of the reported figures are either exaggerations or are wrong (or, are lies), and so their mere existence does not truly necessarily invalidate other numbers. For example, although Ibn Sirin is someone credible, he lived in Basra, and so, he is not someone who lived with the people of Kufa, so was he really intimately familiar with this incident?

At least 14 or so the women's names are recorded by one of the authors. That we wouldn't know all of their names is also quite unsurprising. Indeed, Muhsin Aal-Asfur also points out that it is possible that the Imam married some of the women and divorced them without even consummating the marriage. As Qa'im has pointed out above, some of these may have even been for some of the women's own benefit.

One might also find something useful herein: http://www.al-asfoor.org/fatawa/index.php?id=1267
And, see: http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vb/showpost.php?p=987425&postcount=13

Also, on a side-note, is Abu_Rumaysah only good at going around the forum, copy-and-pasting?

I think I only have one problem with this. If we say he divorced them for a reason, then this is fine. But if we say he divorced them because he simply could, then is that really consistent with his status as a ma'soom and one of the five people under the cloak?

Divorce for no reason is not simply makrooh, it is extremely makrooh. I'm sure you have seen the numerous hadiths condemning it. 

Edited by E.L King

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1 hour ago, E.L King said:

I think I only have one problem with this. If we say he divorced them for a reason, then this is fine. But if we say he divorced them because he simply could, then is that really consistent with his status as a ma'soom and one of the five people under the cloak?

Divorce for no reason is not simply makrooh, it is extremely makrooh. I'm sure you have seen the numerous hadiths condemning it. 

When Imam Hasan (a.s) did not divorce Ja'ada binte As'hat who was the most troublesome of his wives and who eventually poisoned him, how is it possible  that he was  divorcing other women left and right without a good reason!! 

Edited by starlight

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1 hour ago, starlight said:

When Imam Hasan (a.s) did not divorce Ja'ada binte As'hat who was the most troublesome of his wives and who eventually poisoned him, how is it possible  that he was  divorcing other women left and right without a good reason!! 

This is my biggest problem. Why would he divorce without good reason?

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16 hours ago, E.L King said:

I think I only have one problem with this. If we say he divorced them for a reason, then this is fine. But if we say he divorced them because he simply could, then is that really consistent with his status as a ma'soom and one of the five people under the cloak?

Divorce for no reason is not simply makrooh, it is extremely makrooh. I'm sure you have seen the numerous hadiths condemning it. 

Brother - the whole thing is a Ummayya conspiracy to defame Imam Hasan (as). Remember that Imam Ali and his family were cursed after every prayer in Shaam. 

How would he even afford the mehr for 300 women?

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11 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Brother - the whole thing is a Ummayya conspiracy to defame Imam Hasan (as). Remember that Imam Ali and his family were cursed after every prayer in Shaam. 

How would he even afford the mehr for 300 women?

The names of the wives of Imam Hassan AS in history verify that there were 15 wives of the imam As. Their names of them can be mentioned as given below:

و من المنظور التاريخي فإن واقع كثرة طلاق الإمام تكذب الواقعة ، فإن أقصى ما ذكره المؤرخون أن عدد زوجاته كانت خمس عشرة امرأة هن :

1-      خولة بنت منظور الفزارية – وهي أم الحسن المثنى

2-      أم أسحاق بنت طلحة بن عبيد الله – وهي أم طلحة و الحسين الأثرم

3-      أم بشر أو بشير بنت مسعود عقبة الأنصاري – وهي أم زيد

4-      هند بنت سهيل بن عمرو

5-      حفصة بنت عبد الر حمن بن أبي بكر

6-      امرأة من ثقيف – و هي أم عمر

7-      امرأة من كلب

8-      امرأة من بنات علقمة بن زرارة

9-      جعدة بنت الأشعث ( قيل اسمها سكينة و قيل شعثاء و قيل عائشة و الأصح جعدة )

10-  امرأة من بني شيبان من آل همام  بن مرة

11-  بنت الشليل أخي جابر بن عبد الله البجلي – و هي أم عبد الله

12-  أم حبيب بنت عمرو بن أهتم المنقري

13-  أسماء ابنة عطارد بن حاجب التميمي

14-  بنت أبي عمير بن مأمون

15-  أم كلثوم بنت الفضل بن العباس

The four (04) wives out of those 15 were divorced. by Imam Hassan AS for valid reasons:

*و أن المؤرخون ذكروا أن الإمام طلق فقط أربع لا أقل و لا أكثر وهن :

1- عائشة الخثعمية : تزوجها في حياة أبيه المرتضى عليه السلام 

وطلقها لأنها أظهرت الشماتة عندما قتل أمير المؤمنين

2- حفصة بنت عبد الرحمن بن أبي بكر

وهذه كانت يهواها المنذر بن الزبير فابلغ الإمام عنها شيئا فطلقها ، فلما خطبها المنذر رفضت وقالت : شهرني

3- امرأة من بني شيبان من آل همام بن مرة

طلقها لأنها ترى رأي الخوارج

4- أم كلثوم بنت الفضل بن العباس

طبعا فارقها الإمام و لم يذكر السبب فتزوجت أبو موسى الأشعري

هذه الروايات التي تدل على مفارقة الإمام لم تكن اعتباطا بل لأسباب و لأسباب عقلانية و تشخيصه الكريم

http://manhag1432.blogspot.com/2011/08/blog-post_14.html

 

Edited by skamran110

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