Marriages of imam Hasan (as)

[Abu_Rumaysah]

as salam alaykum dear brothers and sisters, shias and sunnis.

One of our brothers revived 7 years old thread regarding wifes of Imam Husayn. And that reminded me issue of marriages of sayidina Hasan (alayhi salam). Hope we can discuss this with benefits.

First of all, I'd like to cite some reports from shia sources, where basically one masoom warns people from marriage with other masoom.

Kulayni narrated in “Kafi” (5/56) via his own chain, and MAJLISI SAID IT’S MUWATHAQ.

حُمَيْدُ بْنُ زِيَادٍ عَنِ الْحَسَنِ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ سَمَاعَةَ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ زِيَادِ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ سِنَانٍ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ( عليه السلام ) قَالَ إِنَّ عَلِيّاً قَالَ وَ هُوَ عَلَى الْمِنْبَرِ لَا تُزَوِّجُوا الْحَسَنَ فَإِنَّهُ رَجُلٌ مِطْلَاقٌ فَقَامَ رَجُلٌ مِنْ هَمْدَانَ فَقَالَ بَلَى وَ اللَّهِ لَنُزَوِّجَنَّهُ وَ هُوَ ابْنُ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) وَ ابْنُ أَمِيرِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ( عليه السلام ) فَإِنْ شَاءَ أَمْسَكَ وَ إِنْ شَاءَ طَلَّقَ .

From Abu Abdullah (alaihi salam) which said: Ali (alaihi salam) said, and he was on the minbar: do not give in marriage, your daughters to Hasan for he divorces very soon.’ a man from the hamdân clan said: ‘by Allâh, we shall give our daughters to him in marriage. those he likes, let him keep; and those he dislikes, divorce.

And he narrated in the same place:

عِدَّةٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِنَا عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ إِسْمَاعِيلَ بْنِ بَزِيعٍ عَنْ جَعْفَرِ بْنِ بَشِيرٍ عَنْ يَحْيَى بْنِ أَبِي الْعَلَاءِ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ( عليه السلام ) قَالَ إِنَّ الْحَسَنَ بْنَ عَلِيٍّ ( عليه السلام ) طَلَّقَ خَمْسِينَ امْرَأَةً فَقَامَ عَلِيٌّ ( عليه السلام ) بِالْكُوفَةِ فَقَالَ يَا مَعَاشِرَ أَهْلِ الْكُوفَةِ لَا تُنْكِحُوا الْحَسَنَ فَإِنَّهُ رَجُلٌ مِطْلَاقٌ فَقَامَ إِلَيْهِ رَجُلٌ فَقَالَ بَلَى وَ اللَّهِ لَنُنْكِحَنَّهُ فَإِنَّهُ ابْنُ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) وَ ابْنُ فَاطِمَةَ ( عليها السلام ) فَإِنْ أَعْجَبَتْهُ أَمْسَكَ وَ إِنْ كَرِهَ طَلَّقَ .

From Abu Abdullah (alaihi salam): Hasan ibn Ali (alaihi salam) divorced 50 women, and Ali (alaihi salam) stand in Kufa and said…. (something similar to previous hadith).

Majlisi said hadith is majhool. However first hadith from main shia book on ahadeth is enough for us.

Similar hadith been narrated in Mahasin:

وروى البرقي في كتاب المحاسن عن ابن محبوب عن عبد الله بن سنان عن أبي عبد الله ” قال : أتى رجل أمير المؤمنين ( عليه السلام ) فقال له : جئتك مستشيرا إن الحسن والحسين وعبد الله بن جعفر خطبوا إلي فقال أمير المؤمنين ( عليه السلام ) : المستشار مؤتمن ، أما الحسن فإنه مطلاق للنساء ، ولكن زوجها الحسين فإنه خير لابنتك

And al Barqi narrated in his book, al Mahasin, from ibn Mahboob, from Abdullah b. Sinan from abi Abdullah (as) who said: A man came to Ali (as), so he said to him (as): “I have come to seek advise whether I should propose to Hasan, Hussain or Abdullah b. Ja’far?” So Ali (as) said: “(Speaking as) The trusted adviser, as for Hasan, so indeed he divorces women a lot, instead arrange marriage with Hussain for indeed he is good for your daughter.”

Hur al-Amili in Wasail volume 22 narrated:

[ 27890 ] 2 ـ وقد تقدم حديث يحيى بن أبى العلاء ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) قال : إن الحسن بن علي ( عليه السلام ) طلق خمسين امرأة ، ثمّّ ذكر نحوه

[27890] 2- And there has preceded a hadith of Yahya b. abi al ‘Ala, from abi Abdullah (as) who said: “Indeed al Hasan b. Ali (as) divorced fifty women, then he mentioned similar to it.”

Muhadith Tabarsi in Mustadrak al-Wasail 15/250 reported:

عن أبي طالب في قوت القلوب أنه – يعني الحسن ( عليه السلام ) – تزوج مائتين وخمسين امرأة ، وقد قيل : ثلاثمائة ، وكان علي ( عليه السلام ) يضجر من ذلك ، فكان يقول في خطبته : ” ان الحسن مطلاق فلا تنكحوه

From abi Talib in Quwat al Quloob that he, that is Imam Hasan (as) married two hundred and fifteen women, and it is also said (that he married) three hundred, and Ali (as) was anxious of  that, so he would say in his sermon: “Indeed Hasan divorces a lot so do not arrange Nikah with him.”

 We all know how report regarding cloak been used by my shia friends to proof that Ali, Fatima, Hasan and Husayn were masoom. When prophet (SAWS) gathered them under the cloak, Hasan was a child, and this warn from hz Ali regarding marriage from him, as it is obvious happen long time after hadith of cloak.  

Question is, if marriage with lots of women, and divorcing them, and getting warn from your own father, that people don't suppose to marry their daughters with you, is a sign for masoom Imam? Please I don't want to see answers like: You are nasibi, Muawiyah wasn't good man, Aisha did such and such and etc. My question is really simple, and requires really simple answer. 

While,or better to say if you will decided to answer this question, please don't forget report which has been transmitted by shia scholar at-Tabarsi in Makarim al-ahlaq p 256: From him (alaihi salam), he said: Marry, and don’t divorce, because Arsh shakes due to divorce. From him (alaihi salam), he said: Marry and don’t divorce, because Allah doesn’t love zaqin and zaqat.

al-Kulayni narrated in Kafi 6/54:

(10657) 2 علي بن إبراهيم عن أبيه عن ابن أبي عمير عن غير واحد عن أبي عبد الله (ع) قال: ما من شيء مما أحله الله عز وجل أبغض إليه من الطلاق وإن الله يبغض المطلاق الذواق

From Abu Abdullah (alaihi salam): Amongst things which Allah made permissible there is nothing more hateful for Him than divorce.

Majlisi in Mirat said report is hasan, Bahrani in Haqaiq (25/146) said it is hasan or saheeh.

 

 

Marriages of Imam Hasan also been reported by sunni scholars.

Suyuti in his “Tareeh al-khulafa” said:

وأخرج ابن سعد عن جعفر بن محمد عن أبيه قال: قال علي يا أهل الكوفة لا تزوجوا الحسن فإنه رجل مطلاق فقال رجل من همدان والله لنزوجنه فما رضي أمسك وما كره طلق.

1) Ibn Sa`ad reports from Ja`afar ibn Muhammad from his father, said he: `Ali said : ‘o the people of kûfâ; do not give in marriage, your daughters to Hasan for he divorces very soon.’ a man from the hamdân clan said: ‘by Allâh, we shall give our daughters to him in marriage. those he likes, let him keep; and those he dislikes, divorce.’

وأخرج ابن سعد عن عبد الله بن حسن قال: كان حسن رجلا كثير نكاح النساء وكن قلماً يحظين عنده وكان قل امرأة تزوجها إلا أحبته وصبت إليه.

2) Ibn Sa`ad reports from `AbdAllâh ibn Hasan, said he: ‘Hasan married many women. not many women dwelt with him for long. yet, none of the women he married [and divorced] loved him any less.

وأخرج ابن سعد عن علي بن الحسين: قال كان الحسن مطلاقاً للنساء وكان لا يفارق امرأة إلا وهي تحبه وأحصن تسعين امرأة.

3) Ibn Sa`ad reports from `Ali ibn al-Husayn, said he: Hasan would divorce his wives after a short marriage. inspite of that, the women kept loving him even after divorce. He married ninety women.

وأخرج ابن سعد عن جعفر بن محمد عن أبيه قال: كان الحسن يتزوج ويطلق حتى خشيت أن يورثنا عداوة في القبائل.

4) Ibn Sa`ad reports from Ja`afar ibn Muhammad from his father, said he: Hasan would marry and divorce soon after. i feared that this would harbor enmity amongst the clans.

Also another delusion that ahlalbayt lived in poverty.

Chief of the tabiyun Muhammad ibn Sirin (rahmatullahi alayh) said:

 عن ابن سيرين قال تزوج الحسن بن علي إمرأة فأرسل إليها بمائة جارية مع كل جارية ألف درهم

 al-Hasan married woman, and send to her 100 slave-girls, and with each of them 1000 dirhams.

al-Heythami in “Majmau zawaid” (7503) said: narrated Tabarani and narrators are people of saheeh.

That’s mean he send 100 000 dirhams in one marriage! And he married a lot! 

[Hameedeh]

2 hours ago, Abu_Rumaysah said:

Question is, if marriage with lots of women, and divorcing them, and getting warn from your own father, that people don't suppose to marry their daughters with you, is a sign for masoom Imam? Please I don't want to see answers like: You are nasibi, Muawiyah wasn't good man, Aisha did such and such and etc. My question is really simple, and requires really simple answer.  Hasan, said he: ‘Hasan married many women. not many women dwelt with him for long. yet, none of the women he married [and divorced] loved him any less.

Salam. It's a well known fact that hadith were fabricated against Ahlul Bayt AS. 

Imam Hasan - The Myth of his Divorces

An explanation of the unjust accusations against the 2nd Imam (a), and the source and fallacy of these allegations.

https://www.al-islam.org/al-serat/vol-4-no-3-1978/imam-hasan-myth-his-divorces-sayyid-saeed-akhtar-rizvi

[Abu_Rumaysah]

2 hours ago, hameedeh said:

Salam. It's a well known fact that hadith were fabricated against Ahlul Bayt AS. 

Imam Hasan - The Myth of his Divorces

An explanation of the unjust accusations against the 2nd Imam (a), and the source and fallacy of these allegations.

https://www.al-islam.org/al-serat/vol-4-no-3-1978/imam-hasan-myth-his-divorces-sayyid-saeed-akhtar-rizvi

as salam alaykum.

I have quoted SHIA hadith, authenticated by Majlisi.

Let us check verdict of your shaykh Majlisi.

Hadith:

حُمَيْدُ بْنُ زِيَادٍ عَنِ الْحَسَنِ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ سَمَاعَةَ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ زِيَادِ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ سِنَانٍ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ( عليه السلام ) قَالَ إِنَّ عَلِيّاً قَالَ وَ هُوَ عَلَى الْمِنْبَرِ لَا تُزَوِّجُوا الْحَسَنَ فَإِنَّهُ رَجُلٌ مِطْلَاقٌ فَقَامَ رَجُلٌ مِنْ هَمْدَانَ فَقَالَ بَلَى وَ اللَّهِ لَنُزَوِّجَنَّهُ وَ هُوَ ابْنُ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) وَ ابْنُ أَمِيرِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ( عليه السلام ) فَإِنْ شَاءَ أَمْسَكَ وَ إِنْ شَاءَ طَلَّقَ .

From Abu Abdullah (alaihi salam) which said: Ali (alaihi salam) said, and he was on the minbar: do not give in marriage, your daughters to Hasan for he divorces very soon.’ a man from the hamdân clan said: ‘by Allâh, we shall give our daughters to him in marriage. those he likes, let him keep; and those he dislikes, divorce.

Chain of hadith:

1 narrator Humayd ibn Ziyad. Najashi said: Thiqah waqifi. (Rijal p 132); same verdict from ibn Dawud al-Hilli (Rijal p 210); same verdict from allama Hilli in Khulasa (p 129; 436)

2 narrator Hasan ibn Muhammad ibn Samah, Abu Muhammad al-Kindi. Faqih, thiqah and waqifi as per Najashi (Rijal p 40-41).

3-d narrator Muhammad ibn Ziyad ibn Isa.

Abul Muala al-Kalabasi in Rasail ar-Rijaliyah 3/679 said:

 والمقصود بمحمد بن زياد هو محمد بن أبي عمير؛ حيث إنه محمد بن زياد بن عيسى؛ إذ اسم أبي عمير زياد، كما نص عليه في الفهرست

And here under Muhammad ibn Ziyad mean Muhammad ibn Abi Umayr, because he is Muhammad ibn Ziyad ibn Isa, and name of ibn Abu Umayr is Ziyad, as it was stated in Fihrist. 

Ibn Dawud said about ibn Abu Umayr: Thiqah, from most relied upon men among sunnis and shias. (See Rijal p 159). Basically we can stop checking here, because this guy is from some kind of "Avengers" known as ashabul ijmah.

But let us check the last narrator as well, Abdullah ibn Sinan ibn Tarif Kufi and thiqah. See Rijal of Najashi p 214.

So chain of this report contains only thiqahs in accordance to shia rijal. Can you please advise why you say it is fabrication? 

[Totoro]

Salam brother

As always with hadiths, there are fabricated one and authentic ones...there is one thing for sure: "Many tried to exaggerate the issue"

But why only exaggerating it for Imam Hassan and not others, like Imam Hosein? You may say, and I will agree with you, "There was something that could be exaggerated."

What I think is, since Imam Hasan was the grandson of the prophet, and the son of the Caliph in that time, many proposed marriage to him but not with pure intentions...mostly with political gains in their minds...So, Imam Ali tried to somehow decrease these offers in that way.

Another thing to consider is that Imam Hasan was killed by his wife, which means not all wives were to be trusted...and yet Imam Hasan had not divorced her! which means he didn't divorce women on a whim. 

so, if you accept that he divorced few women, less than 10 if I remember correctly which is far lesser than what some sunni hadith claimed, and political situation had something to do with it, then the issue won't be that hard. Plus, divorcing a bad wife is not a sin, is it?

[Abu_Rumaysah]

55 minutes ago, Totoro said:

Salam brother

so, if you accept that he divorced few women, less than 10 if I remember correctly which is far lesser than what some sunni hadith claimed,

as salam alaykum.

The issue not in sunni ahadeth, just try to read my post completely.

Hur al-Amili in Wasail volume 22 narrated:

[ 27890 ] 2 ـ وقد تقدم حديث يحيى بن أبى العلاء ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) قال : إن الحسن بن علي ( عليه السلام ) طلق خمسين امرأة ، ثمّّ ذكر نحوه

[27890] 2- And there has preceded a hadith of Yahya b. abi al ‘Ala, from abi Abdullah (as) who said: “Indeed al Hasan b. Ali (as) divorced fifty women, then he mentioned similar to it.”

Muhadith Tabarsi in Mustadrak al-Wasail 15/250 reported:

عن أبي طالب في قوت القلوب أنه – يعني الحسن ( عليه السلام ) – تزوج مائتين وخمسين امرأة ، وقد قيل : ثلاثمائة ، وكان علي ( عليه السلام ) يضجر من ذلك ، فكان يقول في خطبته : ” ان الحسن مطلاق فلا تنكحوه

From abi Talib in Quwat al Quloob that he, that is Imam Hasan (as) married two hundred and fifteen women, and it is also said (that he married) three hundred, and Ali (as) was anxious of  that, so he would say in his sermon: “Indeed Hasan divorces a lot so do not arrange Nikah with him.”

Where did you get number 10 from?

[Khadim uz Zahra]

There is, unfortunately, a fundamental flaw in your argument. I'm no expert in rijal so I haven't the faintest clue as to how reliable the Hadith is and whether there's any way to oppose the credibility of the Hadith itself but the thing is, you want to use these aHadith is proof that Imam Hasan was somehow an impious man and that he married loads of women because he was a lustful man. You ask if these are the actions of a Ma'soom Imam but where you start to get hypocritical is when you consider the fact that he is, regardless of these Hadith, still the prince of the youth of paradise, the man that the Prophet would put on his shoulders and so on and so forth. Since you're much better than me at Hadith, I'm sure I don't need to point you towards all the lofty virtues that have been ascribed to him, in both Shi'a and Sunni sources. Thus, the question becomes, if a man who can so nonchalantly marry and divorce (allegedly) a hundred women, to the point of marrying and divorcing one woman each day, despite the fact that divorce is widely known to be the halal that Allah hates more than anything and that the Prophet chastised people for it even if they just divorced three times (as in, three women), if such a man isn't good enough to be a Ma'soom Imam, he is also most definitely not good enough to be worthy of any of the things that your own Hadith ascribe to him. Thus, if you want to prove that he was somehow impious using these narrations, then you are also contradicting your own books which mark him as one of the foremost believers. If you use them as a means of disproving our beliefs, you also disprove your own books of Hadith. Is the Prophet then party to nepotism, chastising those who divorce and, yet, disregarding his own grandson's vices and calling him the leader of the youth of paradise? At the end of the day, your argument is quite the double-edged sword, which ultimately contradicts your own beliefs about Imam Hasan.

[Totoro]

13 minutes ago, Abu_Rumaysah said:

Where did you get number 10 from?

This is what I remembered from my own studies, when I was researching. Don't know now from where exactly I had it in mind. maybe just wanted to bring it down, so the matter seems less important? eh? ^____^

25 minutes ago, Abu_Rumaysah said:

The issue not in sunni ahadeth, just try to read my post completely.

I will do my best the next time ^____^

About those two hadiths:

The second Hadith is not from Shia sources! The main source which is "Qut Al-Qulub" is not one of our sources for Hadith! Plus it doesn't have any  chain of narrators for it. so, we can't trust it! This book is mainly famous among Suffis and their writings. I don't want to judge about it, just saying we can't trust all hadiths in there, especially when we don't have any chain to study them. Even if a Shia scholar like Tabarsi narrates from that book, it doesn't change any thing! Sine we know the great and all-trusted Koleyni, the author of Al-Kafi, brought more than 9 thousands weak hadiths in his book, and that book is the most famous hadith book among shia.

As for the first one, you have referenced it back to Vasael which is right...but you can do better by bringing the main source, which is Al-Kafi ^___^ of course it doesn't help me, but it is a fact:

عِدَّةٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِنَا عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ إِسْمَاعِيلَ بْنِ بَزِيعٍ عَنْ جَعْفَرِ بْنِ بَشِيرٍ عَنْ يَحْيَى بْنِ أَبِي الْعَلَاءِ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ: إِنَّ الْحَسَنَ بْنَ عَلِيٍّ ع طَلَّقَ‏ خَمْسِينَ‏ امْرَأَةً فَقَامَ عَلِيٌّ ع بِالْكُوفَةِ فَقَالَ يَا مَعَاشِرَ أَهْلِ الْكُوفَةِ لَا تُنْكِحُوا الْحَسَنَ فَإِنَّهُ رَجُلٌ مِطْلَاقٌ فَقَامَ إِلَيْهِ رَجُلٌ فَقَالَ بَلَى وَ اللَّهِ لَنُنْكِحَنَّهُ فَإِنَّهُ ابْنُ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ص وَ ابْنُ فَاطِمَةَ ع فَإِنْ أَعْجَبَتْهُ أَمْسَكَ وَ إِنْ كَرِهَ طَلَّقَ.

and unfortunately, this one seems authentic...I checked all narrators...couldn't find anything against them...such a shame ^____^ .

You may only say, which is not usually acceptable, that the beginning of this chain is not known... 

There is one important point:

an individual hadith, even if authentic, is accepted regarding halal and haram in actions, and not beyond. 

The point mentioned by brother Khadim is also worthy of our attention. We can't prove anything wrong about Imam Hasan by hadiths, especially when there is only one or few...because we have many other hadiths that deny such a thing. Thus, we can only conclude that either there is one historical point we are missing or these few hadiths should not be trusted.

[Faruk]

Quran says Imam Hassan a.s. was purified.

Why do you want to prove otherwise and what is the thought behind your intention?

[Abu_Rumaysah]

On 10/8/2016 at 2:45 AM, Faruk said:

Quran says Imam Hassan (عليه السلام). was purified.
Why do you want to prove otherwise and what is the thought behind your intention?

It is funny that instead of discussing SOUND shia and sunni reports, you would willingly switch to discussing of my intentions. 

And I can see 3 of your peers applauding to your post.

[Abu_Rumaysah]

On 10/8/2016 at 1:00 AM, Khadim uz Zahra said:

There is, unfortunately, a fundamental flaw in your argument. I'm no expert in rijal so I haven't the faintest clue as to how reliable the Hadith is and whether there's any way to oppose the credibility of the Hadith itself 

I do believe you can ask you shia brothers and sisters, that have more clue to help you with that.

Quote

but the thing is, you want to use these aHadith is proof that Imam Hasan was somehow an impious man and that he married loads of women because he was a lustful man.

I don't want to proof that Imam Hasan was not pious. But there ahadeth are definite proof that:

1) He was not masoom. And this is perfectly agrees with opinion of 80% of Muslims in the world. Glad to be a part of it.

2) That he was not considered as masoom by his very own father. Hz Ali by asking people NOT to marry his son, clearly showed that his son doing something not correct.

Quote

You ask if these are the actions of a Ma'soom Imam but where you start to get hypocritical is when you consider the fact that he is, regardless of these Hadith, still the prince of the youth of paradise, the man that the Prophet would put on his shoulders and so on and so forth. Since you're much better than me at Hadith, I'm sure I don't need to point you towards all the lofty virtues that have been ascribed to him, in both Shi'a and Sunni sources. 

I still do believe that hz Hasan was master of youth in paradise, beloved of his grandfather (saws). But I also believe he was not masoom. And as I repeated once, these ahadeth clearly shows this. 
 

Quote

 if such a man isn't good enough to be a Ma'soom Imam, he is also most definitely not good enough to be worthy of any of the things that your own Hadith ascribe to him.

My dear friends. Ahlesunnah that consist majority of Muslims in the world. And this was during the all time of Islamic history. This school always believed in all sound reports in praise of hz Hasan, and always believed HE WASN'T masoom Imam.

This can contradict to your opinion, or opinion of your school in general. But this is belief of general majority of Muslims regarding companions and ahlalbayt. Yes they do have a lots of virtues, yes they do have lots of merits. But yet they still use to commit errors, or others use to commit sins.

[Guest]

@Abu_Rumaysah  From exactly what have you derived the conclusion that he was not a masoom? 

FYI we refer to masoom as someone who is free of sin, where do the above stated hadiths say he(a.s) committed a sin?

[Aabiss_Shakari]

On 10/8/2016 at 5:11 AM, Abu_Rumaysah said:

It is funny that instead of discussing SOUND shia and sunni reports, you would willingly switch to discussing of my intentions. 

And I can see 3 of your peers applauding to your post.

This is the problem with you and us. Our touchstone for a report is Quran. If any report contradicts Quran, we shall throw it on the wall because any hadith contradicting Quran is lie and deception. The same touchstone we have for insulting /humiliating hadiths about Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) (which i can not even mention) in Sahih Bukhari. Just a glimpse of my argument is that when Quran says Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is best of ikhlaq then even i can not go in mosque with patches of Najasat on my cloth how Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) can? When a sinful man like me is so conscious that i am in condition of Janabat and can not enter mosque and even can not forget about it then how could prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) forget and enter mosque in cindution of janabat? Should i see report by Abu Huraira (if i am even Sunni)  or verses of Quran guaranteeing virtues/manners/ikhlaq of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)? 

[Abu_Rumaysah]

On 10/8/2016 at 5:33 AM, starlight said:

@Abu_Rumaysah  From exactly what have you derived the conclusion that he was not a masoom? 

FYI we refer to masoom as someone who is free of sin, where do the above stated hadiths say he((عليه السلام)) committed a sin?

as salam alaykum.

I am not a person who would speak about sins of companions. That is purely specialization of your school of thought.

I would say, actually I would repeat: These ahadeth and reports from both shia and sunni sources, shows that Imam Hasan, our master, and master of youth in paradise, WASN'T infallible man. Like all other companions, he had his great merits, but he could err. 

[Aabiss_Shakari]

32 minutes ago, starlight said:

@Abu_Rumaysah  From exactly what have you derived the conclusion that he was not a masoom? 

FYI we refer to masoom as someone who is free of sin, where do the above stated hadiths say he(a.s) committed a sin?

Imam Hassan a.s is grandson of Prophet PBUH. They have no shame regarding Prophet PBUH. Need not to tell about the garbage they have talked about Prophet in Sahih Bukhari. 

[Aabiss_Shakari]

52 minutes ago, Abu_Rumaysah said:

55 minutes ago, Abu_Rumaysah said:

I still do believe that hz Hasan was master of youth in paradise, beloved of his grandfather (saws). But I also believe he was not masoom. And as I repeated once, these ahadeth clearly shows this. 

[Guest]

On 10/8/2016 at 6:08 AM, Abu_Rumaysah said:

as salam alaykum.

I am not a person who would speak about sins of companions. That is purely specialization of your school of thought.

I would say, actually I would repeat: These ahadeth and reports from both shia and sunni sources, shows that Imam Hasan, our master, and master of youth in paradise, WASN'T infallible man. Like all other companions, he had his great merits, but he could err. 

I have been over my copies of Al Mahaasin and Al kafi. I have been unable to find the narrations you quoted from these two books. Can you please tell me exactly where did you find these narrations, please tell me the Volume number and chapter name so I can look them up.

Thank you. 

[Abu_Rumaysah]

On 10/8/2016 at 6:04 AM, Aabiss_Shakari said:

This is the problem with you and us. Our touchstone for a report is Quran. If any report contradicts Quran, we shall throw it on the wall because any hadith contradicting Quran is lie and deception. The same touchstone we have for insulting /humiliating hadiths about Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) (which i can not even mention) in Sahih Bukhari. Just a glimpse of my argument is that when Quran says Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is best of ikhlaq then even i can not go in mosque with patches of Najasat on my cloth how Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) can? When a sinful man like me is so conscious that i am in condition of Janabat and can not enter mosque and even can not forget about it then how could prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) forget and enter mosque in cindution of janabat? Should i see report by Abu Huraira (if i am even Sunni)  or verses of Quran guaranteeing virtues/manners/ikhlaq of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)? 

Nice, really nice my respected friend. I would call it masterpiece in attempt to drive topic away from discussed question. Do you guys participating in any special training in this? 

But as usual, you just digging the place under your own feet. Let us see.

Quote

Our touchstone for a report is Quran. If any report contradicts Quran, we shall throw it on the wall because any hadith contradicting Quran is lie and deception.

[Pickthal 9:100] And the first to lead the way, of the Muhajirin and the Ansar, and those who followed them in goodness - Allah is well pleased with them and they are well pleased with Him, and He hath made ready for them Gardens underneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide for ever. That is the supreme triumph.
[Pickthal 48:18] Allah was well pleased with the believers when they swore allegiance unto thee beneath the tree, and He knew what was in their hearts, and He sent down peace of reassurance on them, and hath rewarded them with a near victory;

So please throw away all reports in condemnation of companions. 

Quote

Just a glimpse of my argument is that when Quran says Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is best of ikhlaq then even i can not go in mosque with patches of Najasat on my cloth how Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) can?

My respected brother you are starting the game, that you definitely would loose. I would not post here all blasphemy regarding prophets from your books. Don't want to change the discussion of this thread.

[Aabiss_Shakari]

1 hour ago, Abu_Rumaysah said:

I still do believe that hz Hasan was master of youth in paradise, beloved of his grandfather (saws). But I also believe he was not masoom. And as I repeated once, these ahadeth clearly shows this. 

 Prophet PBUH said "Hassan a.s and Hussain a. s are masters of youth of paradice and their father is afzal than then"

Ali a. s said "I am one of the slaves of Prophet PBUH"

Now two quick questions for you. 

1. Will the Prophets a. s enter Paradise? 

2. Were prophets a. s masoom? 

1 hour ago, Abu_Rumaysah said:

 

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, Abu_Rumaysah said:

I am not a person who would speak about sins of companions. That is purely specialization of your school of thought

Funny. You make a long drawn out post in which you repeatedly say that Imam Hasan (a.s) is not a Masoom and when I ask you to bring some proof to back up your claims you put on a robe on decency?? Absurd.

[Haji 2003]

31 minutes ago, Abu_Rumaysah said:

Like all other companions, he had his great merits, but he could err.

Well, the Shia position is that some Sunnis try and make some companions out to be better than they were or at the very least play down how bad they were.

One of the ways by which Sunnis do this is to denigrate the Shia Imams (a.s.). 

The problem is that there are innumerable hadiths of the Prophet (s.a.w.), highlighting his similarities to his progeny.

So this effort to denigrate the 12 Imams (a.s.) ends up attacking the Prophet (s.a.w.), but people like you consider that to be a fair price to pay, as long as certain other companions are shown in a good light.

[Abu_Rumaysah]

20 minutes ago, starlight said:

I have been over my copies of Al Mahaasin and Al kafi. I have been unable to find the narrations you quoted from these two books. Can you please tell me exactly where did you find these narrations, please tell me the Volume number and chapter name so I can look them up.

Thank you. 

as Salam Alaykum my respected friend.

Sure, I can even put a scan copies for you.

Here two reports from Kafi that I have used:

حُمَيْدُ بْنُ زِيَادٍ عَنِ الْحَسَنِ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ سَمَاعَةَ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ زِيَادِ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ سِنَانٍ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ( عليه السلام ) قَالَ إِنَّ عَلِيّاً قَالَ وَ هُوَ عَلَى الْمِنْبَرِ لَا تُزَوِّجُوا الْحَسَنَ فَإِنَّهُ رَجُلٌ مِطْلَاقٌ فَقَامَ رَجُلٌ مِنْ هَمْدَانَ فَقَالَ بَلَى وَ اللَّهِ لَنُزَوِّجَنَّهُ وَ هُوَ ابْنُ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) وَ ابْنُ أَمِيرِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ( عليه السلام ) فَإِنْ شَاءَ أَمْسَكَ وَ إِنْ شَاءَ طَلَّقَ .

From Abu Abdullah (alaihi salam) which said: Ali (alaihi salam) said, and he was on the minbar: do not give in marriage, your daughters to Hasan for he divorces very soon.’ a man from the hamdân clan said: ‘by Allâh, we shall give our daughters to him in marriage. those he likes, let him keep; and those he dislikes, divorce.

And he narrated in the same place:

عِدَّةٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِنَا عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ إِسْمَاعِيلَ بْنِ بَزِيعٍ عَنْ جَعْفَرِ بْنِ بَشِيرٍ عَنْ يَحْيَى بْنِ أَبِي الْعَلَاءِ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ( عليه السلام ) قَالَ إِنَّ الْحَسَنَ بْنَ عَلِيٍّ ( عليه السلام ) طَلَّقَ خَمْسِينَ امْرَأَةً فَقَامَ عَلِيٌّ ( عليه السلام ) بِالْكُوفَةِ فَقَالَ يَا مَعَاشِرَ أَهْلِ الْكُوفَةِ لَا تُنْكِحُوا الْحَسَنَ فَإِنَّهُ رَجُلٌ مِطْلَاقٌ فَقَامَ إِلَيْهِ رَجُلٌ فَقَالَ بَلَى وَ اللَّهِ لَنُنْكِحَنَّهُ فَإِنَّهُ ابْنُ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) وَ ابْنُ فَاطِمَةَ ( عليها السلام ) فَإِنْ أَعْجَبَتْهُ أَمْسَكَ وَ إِنْ كَرِهَ طَلَّقَ .

From Abu Abdullah (alaihi salam): Hasan ibn Ali (alaihi salam) divorced 50 women, and Ali (alaihi salam) stand in Kufa and said…. (something similar to previous hadith).

Here online link for well known shia site:

http://lib.eshia.ir/11005/6/56

Here scans from printed al-Kafi volume 6. 

[Khadim uz Zahra]

All of this still doesn't prove he wasn't Ma'soom. Let's assume everything from your point of view, that it's true he had, as some would suggest a new wife everyday (even up to 250 of them!) and that he, naudhubillah, entered these marriages because of lust, it would still not prove your point of him not being a ma'soom as the very definition of ismah is to not sin and marriage, regardless of how many times you do it, and divorce, are not sins. This would, however, be a technical difference and perhaps go against the spirit of ismah so let's move on to the more salient point.

And, that is again the fact that your accusations and your interpretation of events would not only make him a non-ma'soom but also nowhere near deserving of the stature he occupies in other widely famous and corroborated aHadith in the Sunni tradition. A man who is, naudhubillah, so lustful that he would do something that God hates more than any other halal action literally everyday is not fit to be the master of the youth of paradise because even you and I would be better people, arguably, since no one alive today probably has 250 wives. If a layman like me can one-up such a person, how is he fit to be my leader and the leader of all men in Heaven? How is he fit to represent the entire youth of the Muslims in the mubahila? How is he fit to be one of the ashab al-kisa? 

I'll quote some aHadith attributed to the Prophet in Shi'i books but despite that, I don't think you'll have much cause to disagree as they mostly correlate to what Sunni sources should also say on the subject:

Do not divorce your wives unless you are suspicious about them, for God does not like men and women who marry a lot.

Get married, but do not divorce your wives, for God surely detests men and women who marry a lot.

Marry but don't divorce (your wife), for verily the Divine Throne shudders (with anger) when divorce occurs.

Certainly, Allah, Almighty and Glorious, dislikes or curses any man or woman whose intention of divorce or marriage is merely tasting the pleasure of it.

The Holy Prophet (S) repeated this statement three times to emphasize that any man who divorces his wife for a new marriage and tasting the pleasure of the new wed, as well as if any woman who demands her divorce for the same purpose and marries another man, is involved in the curse of Allah.

Need I go on? So, tell me, exactly how is a man who is detested by God, who incurs the wrath of God literally everyday and who is the subject of God's curse everyday solely for the sake of lust (naudhubillah) worthy of being the commander of literally everyone in Heaven? The recompense for the Prophet's message is for the women he married for only one night and ditched is for them to love him? He has been thoroughly purified by God himself? He is the weighty thing, alongside the Qur'an that people are supposed to hold on to after the Prophet? On what planet does that make sense? The problem with your argument is that in your haste to disprove our belief regarding his ismah, you go so far that you begin to contradict everything else that we know about him, you begin to question his piety itself. There is a difference between being a pious non-ma'soom and being a lustful predator - the case you're making is for the latter, and not the former.

Now, before you say it, I'll point out myself that my two points contradict one another because I first argue that multiple divorces do not invalidate ismah and, then, claim that they do. And, the reason for that is rather simple: the convoluted nature of your own argument as you've dug yourself into a pit and put yourself between a rock and a hard place. As such, you must either exercise the principle of rejecting a hadith that contradicts the Qur'an and other corroborated aHadith (and there are many praises of Imam Hasan in both the Qur'an and the Sunni hadith corpus) or assume there is an explanation for these marriages. You could keep insisting on your own interpretation, which inevitably results in you either pressing your claim against his ismah and, in doing so, questioning the whole Sunni hadith corpus with hundreds of hadith in his favour in order to prove one Hadith or accepting that the multiple marriages do not affect his ismah at all. Either way, your argument remains shaky.

Edited October 8, 2016 by Khadim uz Zahra

[Abu_Rumaysah]

On 10/8/2016 at 6:45 AM, Haji 2003 said:

Well, the Shia position is that some Sunnis try and make some companions out to be better than they were or at the very least play down how bad they were.

Exactly like all human kinds, some of companions been better than others. Like people here at this forum. Some natural thing, and I am surprised that you guys find it difficult to comprehend. You and many of brothers and sisters here, are definitely better persons that I am. 

Quote

One of the ways by which Sunnis do this is to denigrate the Shia Imams ((عليه السلام).). 

So you do assume that sound shia reports that I have presented denigrates status of masoom? 

Quote

The problem is that there are innumerable hadiths of the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).), highlighting his similarities to his progeny.

I have lived long enough to see lots of such exaggeration from shia writers, debaters, and simply my shia friends and relatives. 

Innumerable proofs! 78.5 scholars testified authenticy of report! Even buddhists  agreed on fact that it is fact! 

I am tired. 

Quote

So this effort to denigrate the 12 Imams ((عليه السلام).) ends up attacking the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).), but people like you consider that to be a fair price to pay, as long as certain other companions are shown in a good light.

First of all, I'd like to stress again. From our point of view and belief - to love ahlalbayt it is from emaan! Hasan (alaihi salam) was one of the best companions of prophet (saws), the man with great merits.

Second, I would just paraphrase you with slight difference effort to denigrate almost all companions in reality is attacking their teacher Prophet Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).).

But does this ever stopped your fellows?

[Alzaynebia313]

9 hours ago, Abu_Rumaysah said:

And that reminded me issue of marriages of sayidina Hasan (alayhi salam).

Why say alayhi alsalam if you don't believe Imam Hasan a.s is infallible? Isn't that reserved just for infallible prophets?

I really don't understand how one claims to love the Rasool's Ahlul Bayt but constantly tries to undermine them (Imam Ali's rights), constantly stands against them with mere companions (Fatima Alzahra a.s), constantly belittles them and their tragedies (ignoring Imam Hussain's martyrdom) and constantly starts arguments trying to discreetly disapprove their merits because that is the only way some suhaba will ever exceed them. By dragging Ahlul Bayt down to lift suhaba up. But why is it, when we point out the "errs" of Abu Bakr and Umar you either call us Khawarij who don't know Islam or ignore us completely? Just admit Sunnis hold the companions higher than Ahlul Bayt. And don't give me that "Ahlul Bayt are suhaba too!" narrative.

I will NOT accept hadiths which degrade the Prophet and the Imams just because they're written in Shia books. Unlike you, who is willing to accept hadiths which are offensive and disrespectful to the Prophet (and your beloved companions) just because something is in a "Sahih" book (which a lot of Shia scholars have proven it not to be 100% Sahih). 

Imam Hasan a.s married a hundred women and divorced half? How old was he? Did he have flings every night? Astagfurallah. 

Edited October 8, 2016 by Alzaynebia313

[amirhosein_88]

On 10/7/2016 at 11:35 PM, Abu_Rumaysah said:

حُمَيْدُ بْنُ زِيَادٍ عَنِ الْحَسَنِ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ سَمَاعَةَ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ زِيَادِ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ سِنَانٍ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ( عليه السلام ) قَالَ إِنَّ عَلِيّاً قَالَ وَ هُوَ عَلَى الْمِنْبَرِ لَا تُزَوِّجُوا الْحَسَنَ فَإِنَّهُ رَجُلٌ مِطْلَاقٌ فَقَامَ رَجُلٌ مِنْ هَمْدَانَ فَقَالَ بَلَى وَ اللَّهِ لَنُزَوِّجَنَّهُ وَ هُوَ ابْنُ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) وَ ابْنُ أَمِيرِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ( عليه السلام ) فَإِنْ شَاءَ أَمْسَكَ وَ إِنْ شَاءَ طَلَّقَ .

From Abu Abdullah (alaihi salam) which said: Ali (alaihi salam) said, and he was on the minbar: do not give in marriage, your daughters to Hasan for he divorces very soon.’ a man from the hamdân clan said: ‘by Allâh, we shall give our daughters to him in marriage. those he likes, let him keep; and those he dislikes, divorce.

Chain of hadith:

1 narrator Humayd ibn Ziyad. Najashi said: Thiqah waqifi. (Rijal p 132); same verdict from ibn Dawud al-Hilli (Rijal p 210); same verdict from allama Hilli in Khulasa (p 129; 436)

2 narrator Hasan ibn Muhammad ibn Samah, Abu Muhammad al-Kindi. Faqih, thiqah and waqifi as per Najashi (Rijal p 40-41).

Salamun alaykum.

The first 2 narrators, as you also have mentioned, are Waqifi and they are regarded as the leaders of this deviated group. Then how such narration is authentic?

Rijal by Najashi, pp. 40-41:

الحسن بن محمد بن سماعة
أبو محمد الكندي الصيرفي من شيوخ الواقفة كثير الحديث فقيه ثقة و كان‏ يعاند في الوقف و يتعصب‏

Rijal by Najashi, pp. 132:

حميد بن زياد بن حماد
بن حماد بن زياد هوار الدهقان أبو القاسم، كوفي سكن سورا، و انتقل إلى نينوى قرية على العلقمي إلى جنب الحائر على صاحبه السلام، كان ثقة واقفا، وجها فيهم.

[Muslim2010]

On 10/7/2016 at 10:09 PM, Abu_Rumaysah said:

Kulayni narrated in “Kafi” (5/56) via his own chain, and MAJLISI SAID IT’S MUWATHAQ.

حُمَيْدُ بْنُ زِيَادٍ عَنِ الْحَسَنِ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ سَمَاعَةَ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ زِيَادِ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ سِنَانٍ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ( عليه السلام ) قَالَ إِنَّ عَلِيّاً قَالَ وَ هُوَ عَلَى الْمِنْبَرِ لَا تُزَوِّجُوا الْحَسَنَ فَإِنَّهُ رَجُلٌ مِطْلَاقٌ فَقَامَ رَجُلٌ مِنْ هَمْدَانَ فَقَالَ بَلَى وَ اللَّهِ لَنُزَوِّجَنَّهُ وَ هُوَ ابْنُ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) وَ ابْنُ أَمِيرِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ( عليه السلام ) فَإِنْ شَاءَ أَمْسَكَ وَ إِنْ شَاءَ طَلَّقَ .

From Abu Abdullah (alaihi salam) which said: Ali (alaihi salam) said, and he was on the minbar: do not give in marriage, your daughters to Hasan for he divorces very soon.’ a man from the hamdân clan said: ‘by Allâh, we shall give our daughters to him in marriage. those he likes, let him keep; and those he dislikes, divorce.

This is not agreed by all the scholars in the way you are presenting. these are weak hadith.

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته 
الرواية الأولى فيها حميد بن زياد والحسن بن محمد بن سماعة وهما واقفيان والثاني قال عنه النجاشي كان يعاند في الوقف ويتعصب ولكن وان ذكرا انهما ثقتان إلا ان بعضهم يحكم بضعف الرواية من جهة كونهما اقفيان ففي مجمع الفائدة حكم بضعف رواية فيها هذان فقال (وهي ضعيفة لعدم صحة السند الى الحسن بن محمد بن سماعة فان فيه حميد بن زياد والحسن هو ايضاً واقفي).

 

In the presence of the verses of quran like Verse of Mubahila (3:61),  purification (33:33), Muwaadah (42:23), for ahl albayat AS  the above hadith are not considered acceptable..

WS

[Khadim uz Zahra]

Just now, amirhosein_88 said:

Salamun alaykum.

The first 2 narrators, as you also have mentioned, are Waqifi and they are regarded as the leaders of this deviated group. Then how such narration is authentic?

Rijal by Najashi, pp. 40-41:

الحسن بن محمد بن سماعة
أبو محمد الكندي الصيرفي من شيوخ الواقفة كثير الحديث فقيه ثقة و كان‏ يعاند في الوقف و يتعصب‏

 

Rijal by Najashi, pp. 132:

حميد بن زياد بن حماد
بن حماد بن زياد هوار الدهقان أبو القاسم، كوفي سكن سورا، و انتقل إلى نينوى قرية على العلقمي إلى جنب الحائر على صاحبه السلام، كان ثقة واقفا، وجها فيهم.

 

Because we have at times relied on waqifi narrators who were considered reliable to authenticate aHadith in other matters. Of course, there's a whole discussion to be had on this topic on whether a single sahih hadith should be accepted simply because it has a 'strong' chain and how the role of rijal should not be absolute but that's a whole 'nother can of worms.

[Abbas.]

I will try to keep it short and avoid getting into lengthy debate. In the large shia compilation of hadith and narrations, we will find many odd and sometimes unacceptable content. Fortunately, we do not consider any of our sources to be completely authentic and reliable as they are all works and collections of fallible people. However, it is important to understand the difference between terms used to describe the reliability of chain of narration and the authenticity of the content of narration itself. I quote below a scholarly response in regards to this matter: 

Quote

Difference between 'Sahih' and 'Authentic'

 

In the Name of Allah

 

Dear brother Abbas Raza

 

Salam alaikum

 

The viewpoint of ancient Shiah Ulama (in early Islamic centuries) in this regard is different from that of recent Shiah Ulama.

 

Ancient Ulama believed that a Sahih hadith is “a hadith whose issuance by one of the 14 Masoomin (although through external evidence) is definite and assured”.

 

On the other hand, the recent Ulama believe that a hadith is considered Sahih when it has two conditions:

1- The chain of documentation up to a Masoom (Holy Prophet or Bibi Fatima or Infallible Imams) should be entirely linked without any interruption.

2- The chain of narrators up to a Masoom (a.s.) should be fully ‘trustworthy’ and ‘Twelver Shiah (Ithna-Ashari)’.

 

As you see ‘SAHIH’ is a term for hadiths with the two abovementioned conditions, both of which provide for the authenticity of hadiths’ documentations.

 

However, one should not forget that in addition to the hadith’s documentations, the contents should also be reliable; that is, to judge whether a hadith is authentic or not, we should check to be sure that the contents of a Sahih hadith, too, are not in contradiction with the Holy Quran or similar certain texts (because the Holy Quran is the most authentic source in terms of documentation and contents).

 

If a Sahih hadith is found to be seemingly in contradiction with the Holy Quran or similar authentic texts, it should be tried to find a justification for it through the available ways of removing the contradiction; otherwise, the hadith would not be dependable.   

 

Best Regards

The AhlulBayt World Assembly,

Tehran

 

Based on the answer above, I leave it to readers to judge the authenticity of the content of the narrations that have been posted to prove that our Imams err. There are hundreds of narrations with reliable content that directly contradict the narrations posted in this thread, not to mention Quran which declares Ahl-ul-bayt pure and spotless. 

[Abu Hadi]

Abu_Rumaysah , now that we have some members who are strong in Rijal enter the discussion. 

Where are you ? 

Fleeing for the hills.......

[The Straight Path]

Salam

Islam allows a man to marry up to four women at any given time. As Imam Hasan already had three wives, who were with him up to the last day of his life, he could marry only one more woman at any time.

Bearing in mind this limitation, one can only regard the statement of Quwwat al-Qulub with amusement: “Often he (Imam Hasan) married 4 wives in one sitting and then divorced them in one sitting.” How could he marry 4 wives in one sitting when he already had 3 wives?

Now suppose that he married a fourth wife, and then divorced her. As long as that divorced wife was in 'idda (period of probation, normally 3 months) she was counted legally his wife, and Imam Hasan could not marry another wife before expiry of her 'idda.

Let us, now, suppose that he married a woman. As divorce cannot be given in a month in which co-habitation has taken place, the earliest that that wife could be divorced was in next month; her 'idda continued for 3 months. Thus, four months passed before Imam Hasan could be free to marry another wife. One wife in four months gives us a maximum of 3 wives in a year. Supposing that Imam Hasan had no other work except marrying and divorcing, as Mansur said, and if we count from 37 A.H. up to his martyrdom at the beginning of 51 A.H. to get a period of 14 years, this will give us a maximum number of 42 possible marriages.

And the minimum alleged by these scholars is 70 wives!

After this clarification, there is no need for further comment upon these reports. Yet it is worthwhile to examine these reports a little more in order to show how absolutely unreliable they are.

Abu Talib Makki says: “`Ali used to say that Hasan is a habitual divorcer; do not give him your daughters.” The question is, why `Ali told people in public not to give Hasan their daughters? Had he, first, told Hasan not to divorce so much? If so, did Hasan disobey him? Nobody says that Hasan was, God forbid, a disobedient son. Even Abu Talib Makki admits that Hasan was like the Holy Prophet in facial features and in manners and character. Can a disobedient son be universally accepted as having the character and manner of the Holy Prophet?

Or did `Ali forbid people in public without first trying to restrain Hasan from this alleged behaviour?

Can `Ali be expected to do such a childish thing, degrading his heir-apparent in public, without first advising him accordingly? As both alternatives lead to absurdity, the only conclusion remains that this report was forged by someone who wanted to discredit both `Ali and Hasan by one fabrication.

The most amusing is the report of aforementioned Abu'l-Hasan al-Mada'ini who says: “When Hasan died, all his former wives came out in a group in his funeral procession, with open heads and bare feet, and they were shouting “We are the wives of Hasan!”

Who has ever heard of such a procession in Islamic society? What was the sense in shouting 'we are the wives of Hasan'? And how did their husbands of that time allow them to form that comic procession?

It will be interesting to see the gradual development of this propaganda.

First comes Mansur, in 144 A.H., declaring that Imam Hasan was 'marrying one woman today, divorcing another tomorrow.'

Then comes al-Mada'ini (died 225 A.H.) who gives a specific number of 70 and produces the procession of those divorced wives at the funeral.

Then al-Kafi (compiled in 326 A.H.) gives two `Ahadith' that Imam Hasan divorced very much.

Then comes Abu Talib Makki (380 A.H.) who thought that 70 was not consistent with 'marrying a woman one day and divorcing another tomorrow'; so he increased the number to 250; still his mathematics was not satisfied, so he quoted an unknown source and finally said '300'.

Lastly comes the French historian, H. Lammens, who writes in 'Shorter Encyclopaedia of Islam':

“He (Imam Hasan) spent the best part of his youth in making and unmaking marriages; about a hundred are enumerated. (Remember that Mansur had alleged this to happen after the treaty with Mu'awiya in the last ten years of Imam Hasan's life But this 'historian' antidates it to his youth! And so far as enumeration is concerned, only 14 are enumerated, not 100 as he alleges.) These easy morals earned him the title mitlak 'the divorcer' and involved `Ali in severe enmities.” (Now, on what authority this 'historian' has made this fantastic assertion? No evidence can be produced to support this allegation.)

In another place he writes: that Imam Hasan proved that he was very extravagant. He built separate houses for all those wives; each had her retinue of servants and attendants. Even during the Khilafat of `Ali when there was hardship and strict financial control, he used to spend money in the same way.

Did Rev. H. Lammens produce even a fabricated Hadith or report to show that Imam Hasan had built separate houses for all those (100!) wives with all the paraphernalia which he so willingly enumerates? The answer is 'NO'. It is just the product of his fertile imagination. It is these people who take upon themselves the task of producing 'authentic' history of Islam for the receptive minds of Westerners!

https://www.al-islam.org/al-serat/vol-4-no-3-1978/imam-hasan-myth-his-divorces-sayyid-saeed-akhtar-rizvi/imam-hasan-myth-his

 

Since when must a hadith which is said to have a good chain, be 100% authentic? You know brother that people can fabricate hadiths and chains as well right?

Same can be said for some Sunni reports, you'll find hadiths in Sunni books which are said to have a "sahih chain" and be in favour of some Shia views, but still rejected either because the hadiths in Sahih Bukhari / Muslim which contradicts those reports will be taken firstly, etc. This is what I've seen but I may be wrong.

 

And Allah SWT knows best

Wsalam

Edited October 8, 2016 by The Straight Path

[Abu_Rumaysah]

1 hour ago, Khadim uz Zahra said:

All of this still doesn't prove he wasn't Ma'soom. Let's assume everything from your point of view, that it's true he had, as some would suggest a new wife everyday (even up to 250 of them!) and that he, naudhubillah, entered these marriages because of lust, it would still not prove your point of him not being a ma'soom as the very definition of ismah is to not sin and marriage, regardless of how many times you do it, and divorce, are not sins.

as salam alaykum wa rahmatullah wa barakatuh my dear brother. My Allah guide me and you towards true path, and may truth be manifested upon your tongue.

Well seems we are coming at last to some serious discussion.

So, from your quote above, I do understand that it is not a sin to marry and divorce 250 women.

al-Kulayni narrated in Kafi 6/54:

(10657) 2 علي بن إبراهيم عن أبيه عن ابن أبي عمير عن غير واحد عن أبي عبد الله (ع) قال: ما من شيء مما أحله الله عز وجل أبغض إليه من الطلاق وإن الله يبغض المطلاق الذواق

From Abu Abdullah (alaihi salam): Amongst things which Allah made permissible there is nothing more hateful for Him than divorce.

Majlisi in Mirat said report is hasan, Bahrani in Haqaiq (25/146) said it is hasan or saheeh.

Imam for sure knew this hadith, and fact that he married and divorced a lot, fact that he did most hateful permitted deed multiple times, doesn't negates his ismah. 

Honestly, I am not asking for logic, I already lost my hope to see logic in your answers. 

Quote

And, that is again the fact that your accusations and your interpretation of events would not only make him a non-ma'soom but also nowhere near deserving of the stature he occupies in other widely famous and corroborated aHadith in the Sunni tradition. 

Let us go back to my initial post. I did nothing, apart from citing your sound and our sources. If these reports in themselves considered as an accusation against Imam Hasan, first as an just person raise you voice against imam Kulayni who reported them, and then against Majlisi that authenticated report. But justice is blind here, when it comes to defend.

Quote

 

Need I go on? So, tell me, exactly how is a man who is detested by God, who incurs the wrath of God literally everyday and who is the subject of God's curse everyday solely for the sake of lust (naudhubillah) worthy of being the commander of literally everyone in Heaven?

 

No need to go on my respected brother. I know these and much similar ahadeth. Let me just turn again the table and give this question back to you, just slightly changed:

 So, tell me, exactly how is a man who marries lots of women and divorce them deserves of being titled as masoom Imam?
 

Quote

 

The problem with your argument is that in your haste to disprove our belief regarding his ismah, you go so far that you begin to contradict everything else that we know about him, you begin to question his piety itself. 

 

Stop a minute please. I didn't question his piety. I question his shia status: higher than prophets, infallible, posses divine Authority and the Treasure of Divine Knowledge, deputy of Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, on earth and the Gates through which people go nearer to Allah, light of Allah, corner stone on earth, only he is man well-grounded in knowledge, deeds of people presented to him, he is from Mines of Knowledge, the Tree of Prophet-hood and the Centers wherein angels Interchange. I can quote here all chapters headings from Usul al-Kafi.

We don't question that: Imam Hasan was master of youth in paradise, master that made a peace between a muslims, known faqih of his time, and etc, etc, etc. And he was not infalible, like all other companions were not infalibles. 

Quote

 

And, the reason for that is rather simple: the convoluted nature of your own argument as you've dug yourself into a pit and put yourself between a rock and a hard place. As such, you must either exercise the principle of rejecting a hadith that contradicts the Qur'an and other corroborated aHadith (and there are many praises of Imam Hasan in both the Qur'an and the Sunni hadith corpus) or assume there is an explanation for these marriages. 

 

 

My respected brother, I will do this once you and your fellows will look for excuses for any report against companions, because they have been  mentioned with goodness in Quran, and in mutawateer ahadeth.

[Khadim uz Zahra]

It seems that you're the one blinded by your beliefs because my whole point is that you cannot reconcile the portrayal of Imam Hasan in these aHadith with his portrayal at large in various Mutawatir and far more famous aHadith. As such, in this case, we would apply the well known rule of rejecting a hadith that contradicts the Qur'an and other well known aHadith. Brother Abbas has already pointed to this in his point about the difference between the chain of a hadith and its matn and how a sound chain does not require us to believe it absolutely all the time. We are not absolute rijalists and, honestly, neither are Sunnis where a sahih hadith is somehow unchallengeable. Also, you keep parroting hadith about his virtues as if that's supposed to make everything hunky-dory about the fact that you portray him as a lustful predator the next minute. You are either confused or seriously illogical to at once say he is all that and, then, try to argue for a Hadith that portrays him in the very opposite light. You picked and choose the parts of my post that you like without addressing the fundamental issue at play. How can he be the master of paradise when he is invoking the wrath of God and being cursed by Him literally everyday?

As for your last petty snipe, the Qur'an also calls a disbelieving idolater as a companion of Yusuf so...What's more, those verses are more often than not blanket statements made about entire groups of people. You cannot take a blanket statement and use it as proof for the virtuousness of what could, given the above definition, amount to thousands and thousands of people, including pagans. A companion is only applicable to those verses if he is pious and follows the commands of the Prophet. Some companions didn't so we reject them.

Lastly, isn't it funny that you accuse us of diverting from the topic and, yet, you're the one channeling the debate in a whole new direction from Imam Hasan and these alleged marriages to the status of companions.

Edited October 8, 2016 by Khadim uz Zahra

[Abu_Rumaysah]

On 10/8/2016 at 7:33 AM, Alzaynebia313 said:

Why say alayhi alsalam if you don't believe Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) is infallible? Isn't that reserved just for infallible prophets?

as salam alaykum my respected sister in Islam. I just basically said to you salam alaykum, that very much the same meaning if I would say alzaynebia313 (alayha salam). And that means Salam be upon you. Does it mean that you are infallible in my view? I hope you understand. 

Besides every time, in all prayers per day, we ahlesunnah reading salawat of Ibrahim. 

“Allaahumma salli ‘ala Muhammad wa ‘ala aali Muhammad kama salayta ‘ala Ibraaheem wa ‘ala aali Ibraaheem, innaka hameedun majeed. Allaahumma baarik ‘ala Muhammad wa ‘ala aali Muhammad kama baarakta ‘ala Ibraaheem wa ‘ala aali Ibraaheem, innaka hameedun majeed (O Allaah, send prayers upon Muhammad and upon the family of Muhammad, as You sent prayers upon Ibraaheem and upon the family of Ibraaheem; You are indeed Worthy of Praise, Full of Glory. O Allaah, send blessings upon Muhammad and upon the family of Muhammad as You sent blessings upon Ibraaheem and upon the family of Ibraaheem; You are indeed Worthy of Praise, Full of Glory).”
 

Quote

I really don't understand how one claims to love the Rasool's Ahlul Bayt but constantly tries to undermine them (Imam Ali's rights), constantly stands against them with mere companions (Fatima Alzahra (عليه السلام)), constantly belittles them and their tragedies (ignoring Imam Hussain's martyrdom) and constantly starts arguments trying to discreetly disapprove their merits because that is the only way some suhaba will ever exceed them 

Very well said my respected sister. But I'd like to add some notes:

1) I can't understand how man can love prophet (saws) and at the same time attack almost all his students, accusing them in kufr, nifaq, fisq and all other evils.

2) I can't understand how someone can claim to respect hz Ali, and at the same time to believe he didn't protected his spouse against attacks.

3) I can't understand how someone can make a blind eye to fact, that very same people who called our master Husayn, and claimed that they are ready to pledge allegiance to him, betrayed him and killed him.

Actually there are a lot of things that I don't understand. But what forum can be useful for, if not to learn something and to find answers to questions?

Quote

I will NOT accept hadiths which degrade the Prophet and the Imams just because they're written in Shia books. 

You forgot one important thing

1) Kulayni author of Kafi himself authenticated all narrators in his book.

2) Majlisi authenticated that report where hz Ali prohibited people from marrying their daughters to hz Hasan. 

[Abu_Rumaysah]

1 hour ago, Abu Hadi said:

Abu_Rumaysah , now that we have some members who are strong in Rijal enter the discussion. 

Where are you ? 

Fleeing for the hills.......

Sabr akhi, sabr. I am not living on line bihamdilillah. 

[Sumerian]

1 hour ago, Abu Hadi said:

Abu_Rumaysah , now that we have some members who are strong in Rijal enter the discussion. 

Where are you ? 

Fleeing for the hills.......

Not sure what you are trying to prove, he is right that the hadith is muwathaq (not sahih) - because it contains thiqa narrators who are non-Imami.