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Guest silasun

Sheikh Hamza Sodagar on Homosexuality

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Guest silasun

@Haydar Husayn

I am assuming here that you do not know who is behind this. Which individuals have spread this. It isn't as simple as another story for easy sales. In this particular case there is a LOT of nasty politics going on (and I don't just mean government politics). 

I don't want to go into any more details, but there is a lot of dirt against certain people right now.

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On 10/10/2016 at 1:30 PM, silasun said:

@Haydar Husayn

I am assuming here that you do not know who is behind this. Which individuals have spread this. It isn't as simple as another story for easy sales. In this particular case there is a LOT of nasty politics going on (and I don't just mean government politics). 

I don't want to go into any more details, but there is a lot of dirt against certain people right now.

I'm sure there is. I doubt the press found this video by themselves. However, that doesn't mean that this is some Western conspiracy against Shia scholars, as some would like to think. This isn't the first time this sort of thing has happened to a Muslim speaker, and I doubt it will be the last.

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Guest silasun

No, there is an effort (and always has been), however, to silence any form of opposition to the status quo of who remains in positions of influence (Shias are part of that, but not alone).

We musn't become self-hating Shias. Imam Hussain's message is one that shakes tyrants to the core. Young people in the West are becoming increasingly ready to accept Islam- I have seen this myself and I think anyone who understands the history of the AhlulBayt and developments in the past decade realises this.

The elites are putting in an effort to promote "British Shi'ism"- a faith that has no sense of ghayraat to religion and reduces Islam to a few tear drops. A faith that has no desire to change the society they live in or be active in tableegh. A faith adopted solely by Uncle Toms.

There is indeed a conspiracy against Shi'ism whether you like it or not. Who is it that allows preachers like Habib to have such a voice? Who is it that has attacked all Shia resistance groups? Who is it that supports the Nigerian army in killing so many followers of Sheikh Zakzaky (ha)? We need to stop looking only at policy in the UK and start hearing the music of international politics.

We musn't be naive to the facts just because it isn't "intellectually cool" to discount efforts to attack the Shia.

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3 minutes ago, silasun said:

No, there is an effort (and always has been), however, to silence any form of opposition to the status quo of who remains in positions of influence (Shias are part of that, but not alone).

We musn't become self-hating Shias. Imam Hussain's message is one that shakes tyrants to the core. Young people in the West are becoming increasingly ready to accept Islam- I have seen this myself and I think anyone who understands the history of the AhlulBayt and developments in the past decade realises this.

The elites are putting in an effort to promote "British Shi'ism"- a faith that has no sense of ghayraat to religion and reduces Islam to a few tear drops. A faith that has no desire to change the society they live in or be active in tableegh. A faith adopted solely by Uncle Toms.

There is indeed a conspiracy against Shi'ism whether you like it or not. Who is it that allows preachers like Habib to have such a voice? Who is it that has attacked all Shia resistance groups? Who is it that supports the Nigerian army in killing so many followers of Sheikh Zakzaky (ha)? We need to stop looking only at policy in the UK and start hearing the music of international politics.

We musn't be naive to the facts just because it isn't "intellectually cool" to discount efforts to attack the Shia.

The problem is none of this explains why Christians and Sunnis have been targeted in the media for saying milder things than what Shaykh Sodagar said (as I showed in an earlier post). I don't think there is anything 'self-hating' about saying this. When someone can explain to me why this is different from the many other examples of Christians and Sunnis being targeted for opposing homosexuality, let alone saying it deserves the death penalty, then maybe I could take more seriously the idea that this is aimed at Shias in particular. Or, to put it another way, does anyone seriously think that if a Sunni speaker had said this that the media wouldn't have made a big deal about it?

Regarding the promotion of a 'British Shi'ism', this is certainly happening, but it isn't limited to Shi'ism (see the Quilliam Foundation for example). I don't particularly think Yassir Habib is part of that either. If he is being financed then it probably has to do more with creating fitna than a British form of Shi'ism. Unless you can point me to something he has said that would back that up? A much better example of someone trying to create a 'British Shi'ism' would be 'Shaykh' Arif Abdul Hussain (http://almahdi.edu/faculty-1/member/shaykh-arif-abdul-hussain).

As for the idea that young people are increasingly willing to accept Islam, I doubt that somehow. In fact, I'd say the opposite and say that young Muslims are increasingly likely to adopt secularism. As for the non-Muslims, the values they are being indoctrinated with from birth are making it increasingly hard for them to accept many of the genuine teachings of Islam, let alone get passed all the propaganda surrounding Islam.

With all due respect, and I do respect you, as well as others on here who share your viewpoint, I think there is sometimes a tendency among Shias of a certain mindset to see everything through the lens of politics, and specifically IRI politics. While I wouldn't argue that the West isn't trying to weaken Iran, and by extension are opposed to any Shia movements in other countries, there are also wider forces at play here, and I honestly don't think in this instance it has anything to do with Iran, or that there is any evidence that it does beyond the fact that Shaykh Sodagar is a supporter of the Iranian leadership. Not everything is a conspiracy, and sometimes it really is as simple as 'Muslim speaker says scary things about homosexuals'.

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Guest silasun

1. I 100% agree with you on the idea that we shouldn't be so insolent and not speak out when attacks on freedom of speech occur, just because the victim is Sunni, Christain or otherwise.

2. I am not suggesting a conspiracy of "anti-Shi'ism" which has existed for centuries. The black Muslim movements in American were certainly not predominately Shia. Nor were Communists or people of any other "anti-state" ideology.

I think that a some decades ago, the enemy was communism. It seems that the enemy has evolved into Islam.

I think it is important to realise that the Islamic revolution did have a huge impact on how the West viewed Islam because it really was a threat. Islam (particularly Shi'ism) in its essence is, as an ideology, the most opposed to what goes on in the West- that is simply an application of a core Qur'anic concept.

I think that in the past decades Shi'ism is indeed a growing threat to the West as a result of the Islamic revolution. It's not useful to argue what is the most hated ideology by elites in the West, but it is clear that Shi'ism is amongst them.

3. I wouldn't say it has anything to do with Iran in itself. The same applies to Sunnis who are silenced. The danger isn't really Iran, the problem is pure Islamic teachings.

4. By British Shi'ism I am referring both to YH and the silent gay pride Shias.

5. I would also argue that the Occupy and Black Lives Matter movements are also victims of this tarneshing by the media. Media isn't against Islam, communism or anything else because of a theological difference, but rather because these beliefs are a threat to their power.

6. I would strongly disagree about young people being ready to accept Islam. Most of my friends are intelligent youngsters. I have found that there is a strong sense of desire to learn about true Islamic teachings. I have discussed the Islamic position (openly- including the penal code) with acquintances who are pro-gay rights. I actually found strong understanding of the Islamic position on issues such as women's rights, freedom of speech, homosexuality etc. People "go with the flow" on these issues but I do not think there is an intellectual blanket. I am not saying there will be mass conversions in the next 2 years, but now is certainly the best time we have ever had for tableegh towards Westerners.

7. I could tell you a lot about some of the Shias I have had the misfortune of coming across and who is responsible for stirring the pot on Sh. Sodagar and the actual reasons why. As I said there is a lot of "hidden dirt" but it hasn't been revealed publically. It's not appropriate to share on an online platform!

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9 hours ago, silasun said:

7. I could tell you a lot about some of the Shias I have had the misfortune of coming across and who is responsible for stirring the pot on Sh. Sodagar and the actual reasons why. As I said there is a lot of "hidden dirt" but it hasn't been revealed publically. It's not appropriate to share on an online platform!

Inventions and imaginations of the mind.

So disappointed with this lot trying to carry out a campaign for their worldly posts and positions and these young level scholars to have become tools for the cause of fitnah.

In Islam a punishment is a form of mercy and while announcing it there should not be an arrogant taunting smile on the face.

When asked to do something by higher ups and what you disagree with, rebellion is never the answer for that is fitnah. It could have been raised later at the proper remedial channel rather than vilifying for some prejudices of the past in curtailing one's powers.

Reminded me a bit of the rebellion by, was that, Ibn Hur in the Mukhtarnama series. 

Anyway the true colours of people show when tested. 

This really is the jist and the facts, all else are just assumptions of the fickle mind. 

Shaykh's  lecture last night with the guilty in attendance was really a drumming down of this fitnah group.

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Guest silasun

Hamza Sodagar: Homosexuality is evil but I didn’t call for gays to be harmed

Posted by 5Pillars

The Islamic scholar at the centre of a row about his comments on homosexuality has told 5Pillars that he believes the practice is a great evil, but he rejects all attempts by individuals acting outside state authority to harm gays.

In his first comments on the row since several British newspapers called him a “hate preacher” and an “extremist” for suggesting the Islamic punishment for homosexuality included beheading and burning, Shaykh Hamza Sodagar said he was the victim of a campaign by the “enemies of Islam” and that Muslims needed to “stand firm against the kufaar.”

Sodagar is on a brief lecturing tour to London during the month of Muharram but has been prevented from delivering lectures since the row escalated.

Born in Louisville, Kentucky, to an Iranian father and an American mother, Sodagar moved to Iran in the 80s but returned to the US in 1993. He subsequently developed an interest in religion and in 1997 went to Qom to begin his studies. Ever since he has been studying, teaching and travelling all over the world delivering lectures.

He spoke to 5Pillars editor Roshan Muhammed Salih earlier today.

Roshan Muhammed Salih: In a 2010 video you said that the punishment for homosexuality was burning, beheading, throwing them off a cliff, pushing a wall on them or a combination of all five. British newspapers have since labelled you a hate preacher and an extremist and have called for a ban on you entering the UK. Did you call for homosexuals to be beheaded and burned?

Shaikh Hamza Sodagar: This couldn’t be further from the truth – I even mentioned in the lecture that there could be a misunderstanding like this. I was simply explaining the Islamic penal code and if someone disagrees with this code that is their issue. The important thing to say is that it sounds like I’m telling people to go out on the street and find homosexuals somewhere and light them up and chop off their heads. But I am not preaching that, I am also saying that it is actually haraam to do that, even in an Islamic country you have no right to do that.

The penal code does not apply outside of an Islamic country and inside an Islamic country if people come to know that a male has been involved physically with another male then they have to report that to the authorities and they have to look into it. And if it is established by the authorities then they carry out the punishment, but an individual has no right to carry it out himself and if they do that’s a sin.

Hamza Sodagar was due to speak at the Islamic Centre of England

Hamza Sodagar was due to speak at the Islamic Centre of England

In the 1960s the gay rights movement began and they made it sound like they were an organic movement akin to the black rights movement or the women’s movement, but it’s not like that. Homosexuality is something that is unnatural, and this corruption is being forced upon us.

There is a war on religion, whether it be on Christianity, Judaism (real Judaism, not Zionism) and Islam. People of these various faiths are not even allowed to express their views, even the Pope is made to make various compromises and comments which verge on accepting homosexuality. But this is such a severe matter based on what Allah (SWT) has told us in the Quran that an entire nation was wiped off the face of the earth because of it. So if this becomes widespread it will hurt all of us; I am responsible to prevent this evil, this wrong and this corruption from spreading.

I feel not only for the Muslim community, I feel for the non-Muslim community getting involved with this corruption. It destroys society, it destroys the family. Although previously everyone considered this wrong, lobbyists have worked so hard that now it’s difficult to even say that it’s wrong. But let’s be clear: Islam is categorically against this.

RMS: We live in the West, which is a liberal, secular society where homosexuality is mainstream. Don’t you accept that your words would be shocking to a non-Muslim audience and shouldn’t we be more diplomatic here in the West?

HS: I have a very firm belief that God is our Creator and He knows all of us better than we know ourselves. If He has given us something then that is the most reasonable thing. And if someone doesn’t understand it that doesn’t mean it’s not the right thing to say.

If this was something that wasn’t relevant to the West and would simply bring unwanted attention to Islam and would give people an excuse to attack Islam without any benefit then obviously it would not be wise to say such things. Don’t forget, Islam also talks about slavery but there’s no wisdom about talking about this issue because there’s no reason to; we are not trying to suggest that we bring slavery back. But there is wisdom when you say this is what Islam says about homosexuality, to show the evil in it. Other religious faiths have not spoken their minds on this issue and have not said what is in their books – this is in the Old Testament after all. This is not new, God revealed this from the time of Prophet Ibrahim, it’s part of all Abrahamic faiths and traditions – this is not allowed.

And I should be allowed to say this. The death penalty is implemented in some states in the US and other states don’t accept it. But if you go to another state and support the death penalty is that wrong? Is that unreasonable? I am one of those who believes that this is the penal code and when it applies it’s legitimate. If you disagree with that then we can have a conversation, but to say that when I am discussing this penal code I am suggesting that people go out in the streets to find homosexuals to burn, that’s a big lie.

RMS: This lecture was filmed in 2010. Why has it come up now? Do you think you are being targeted for your outspoken religious and political views?

HS: There’s an Islamic identity developing as part of the global Islamic movement. And the Western countries that are against that movement will fight it – there are the military campaigns that are happening in Syria, Yemen, Bahrain, Iraq, Palestine and Lebanon. There is the political front, the economic front, sanctions, lowering of the oil prices. This is all about changing the true Islamic identity.

AIM invited Hamza Sodagar to the UK

AIM invited Hamza Sodagar to the UK

There are three main elements that they are attacking – Islamic leadership and belief in it by creating ethnic or sectarian disputes because they know that if the Ummah unites behind a leadership we can achieve a lot. Another thing they are hitting is anti-Zionism – if any politician tries to say anything negative about the Zionist regime they attack them and then they learn the lesson that you do not focus on that. Thirdly, homosexuality has become an element which defines this anti-Islamic movement.

So this is a carefully-orchestrated campaign. AIM, which invited me to London, is an organization that promotes Islamic leadership and invites anti-Zionist speakers. They are also going after the Islamic Centre and me, Hamza Sodagar. They want to make the Islamic Centre take a different view, they want to shut down AIM, and they want to make sure that Hamza Sodagar doesn’t come to Britain again.

RMS: You conducted a few lectures when you came to the country recently but now you have been prevented from preaching. How do you feel that Muslims should react to the attacks on you?

HS: There are munafiqeen (hypocrites) within our community. These are the same people who are publishing pictures saying that the Shia community’s tradition is to cut the heads of little children in Muharram. Munafiqeen work with the kufaar and the kufaar want to shove homosexuality down our throats. With this campaign they really wanted to create fear in the hearts of the believers so that they won’t talk about this subject.

But when the enemy has an objective the believers need to do the opposite; if they try to say we are silencing this shaykh and he’s not coming back to the UK, the community needs to learn a lesson from this, it needs to say we want these types of speakers. Give this message to the kufaar, and what I mean by kufaar is the enemies who are creating this bad image of Islam so that the average British, American, Frenchman or German thinks that Islam is brutal. They have an agenda but they need to get the message that the Muslims have a strong identity and they will not give into this fear-mongering. This is a war on Islam and we feel responsible to fight this war.

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Guest silasun

Be sure to take part in the Twitter storm.

Remember that intercession of the AhlulBayt is proportionate to action. Tears shed will not suffice.

 

14639599_1455850707764792_8137923738144380193_n.jpg

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That is one stubborn Sheikh.  The least he could have done was to admit that smiling through those descriptions was in poor taste.  This whole ordeal is a personal victory for him as he will be lauded within shia circles as a defender of truth but overall this episode for shias as a whole has generally negative implications. I am quite certain the gay journalist is quite happy too.

Edited by King

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On October 11, 2016 at 0:03 PM, silasun said:

 

The penal code does not apply outside of an Islamic country and inside an Islamic country if people come to know that a male has been involved physically with another male then they have to report that to the authorities and they have to look into it. And if it is established by the authorities then they carry out the punishment, but an individual has no right to carry it out himself and if they do that’s a sin.

 

I am confused about the statement in blue.  If people have knowledge through talk in the community that a person is homosexual, then they are to report it to the authorities?  

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17 minutes ago, King said:

That is one stubborn Sheikh.  The least he could have done was to admit that smiling through those descriptions was in poor taste.  This whole ordeal is a personal victory for him as he will be lauded within shia circles as a defender of truth but overall this whole episode for shias as a whole has generally negative implications. I am quite certain the gay journalist is quite happy too.

I think it is a very serious subject discussing punishements.I dont get the smiling and then laughing either...?  

Edited by forte

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17 minutes ago, forte said:

I think it is a very serious subject discussing punishements.I dont get the smiling and then laughing either...?  

We see the video and we cringe at the sheikh smiling, however we were not there, and if we were sitting in the sheikh's position and seeing the faces of the audience, if they were smiling then we might instinctively smile back. 

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Video published October 13, 2016 - Students of the Hawza Stand for Shaykh Hamza | Islamic Pulse

Video published October 17, 2016 - A LOUD MESSAGE to the Mainstream Media

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