Why is a statement from an Imam Considered Hadith?

[CraftedWolf]

I always see quotations from Imams cited as "Hadiths". Aren't Hadith only from the Prophet PBUH?

[Abu_Rumaysah]

as salam alaykum.

Normally our shia brothers using this hadith as a proof that whatever been narrated by Imam is equal to narration of prophet (saws).

 Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq (alaihi salam) says: “My hadith is the hadith of my father, the hadith of my father is that of my grandfather, the hadith of my grandfather is that of al-Husayn [bin ‘Ali], the hadith of al-Husayn is that of al-Hasan [bin ‘Ali], the hadith of al-Hasan is that of Amiru ‘l-mu’mimin [‘Ali bin Abi Talib] (a.s.), the hadith of Amiru’l-mu’minin is that of the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w), and the hadith of the Messenger is a statement of Allah, the Almighty, the Great.”

This hadith been reported by Kulayni in al-Kafi (1/53). 

Hadith is weak, even per shia standards. But you can hardly find any shia bothering himself with checking report if it is suitable for his beliefs.

Regarding this hadith, Majlisi in “Mirat” (1/128) said it’s weak ala mash`hur. Bahbude also said it’s weak.

In the chain of this hadith Sahl ibn Ziyad, he’s weak in accordance to agreed opinion between shia scholars. (Najashi “Rijal” p 185; Ibn Dawud al-Hilli “Rijal” p 249; Sheikh Hasan ibn Zaynutdin “Tahrir at-tawusi” p 199; Tifrashi “Rijal” 2/89 and others).

In it also Umar ibn Abdulazeez (not the righteous Caliph, but someone with the same name).

The only one I found with that name in their books is: Abu hafs ibn Abi Bashar, Umar ibn Abdulazeez, known as Zuhal.

عمر بن عبد العزيز، أبو حفص بن ابي بشار، المعروف بزحل – بالزاي والحاء المهملة. قال الكشي: قال محمد بن مسعود: حدثني عبد الله بن حمدويه البيهقي، قال: سمعت الفضل بن شاذان يقول: زحل أبو حفص يروي المناكير وليس بغال. وقال النجاشي: انه مختلط (2)

So as Al-Hili said in his book: “Umar ibn Abdulaziz, Abu hafs ibn Abi Bshar, who is known as Zuhal. Al-Kishi said: …. He narrates Manakeer (Rejected traditions) … and Al-Naghashi said: He is Mukhtalat”

And he is the one that Abu Ja’far ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Eisa narrates from (as Al-Tusi said in Ikhtiyar Ma’rifat Al-Rijaal), which is the case in this tradition.

However Kulayni transmitted another report with similar meaning in al-Kafi 1/51:

وعنه، عن أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى، عن الحسين بن سعيد، عن القاسم بن محمد، عن علي بن أبي حمزة، عن أبي بصير قال: قلت لابي عبدالله (عليه السلام): الحديث أسمعه منك أرويه عن أبيك أو أسمعه من أبيك أرويه عنك؟ قال: سواء إلا أنك ترويه عن أبي أحب إلي: وقال أبوعبدالله (عليه السلام) لجميل: ما سمعت مني فاروه عن أبي.

It is narrated from him from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn ‘Isa from al-Husayn ibn Sa‘id from al-Qasim ibn Muhammad from Ali ibn abu Hamza from abu Basir who has said the following. “Abu ‘Abdallah (alaihi salam) said to Jamil, ‘What you hear from me narrate it from my father.’”

Both Majlisi and Bahbude shared view that this hadith is weak. In the chain Ali ibn Abi Hamza, pillar of waqife mazhab, and that followers of that mazhab are kuffar in the view of shias. Imam said to this man: “You and your friends look like donkey”. (Ibn Dawud “Rijal” p 259). Also in the chain al-Qaseem ibn Muhammad, and he was also waqife.

Majlisi narrated similar hadith in “Bihar” (volume 2, bab 19, #21)

جا، ]المجالس للمفيد[ ابن قولويه عن ابن عيسى عن هارون بن مسلم عن ابن أسباط عن ابن عميرة عن عمرو بن شمر عن جابر قال قلت لأبي جعفر ع إذا حدثتني بحديث فأسنده لي فقال حدثني أبي عن جده عن رسول الله ص عن جبرئيل ع عن الله عز و جل و كل ما أحدثك بهذا الإسناد و قال يا جابر لحديث واحد تأخذه عن صادق خير لك من الدنيا و ما فيها

Via chain: Amr ibn Shimr – Jabir – Abu Jafar (alaihi salam).

Amr ibn Shimr extremely weak. (Tifrashi “Rijal” 3/336; Ibn Dawud al-Hilli “Rijal” p 235, 264; Najashi “Rijal” p 128, 287; Allama Amili “Khulasat” p 94, 95, 378).

Shias free to show us single authentic hadith with such meaning from their books. 

[Sumerian]

@Abu_Rumaysah

Not sure what your point is, our belief is that the Imams [as] are ma'soom (infallible), and that they are a source of Guidance as legislated by Allah [SWT], so what they say cannot be wrong - by definition.

Add to that the fact that the sahih, and possibly mutawatir narrations that prove that they have inherited the knowledge of the Prophets [as] - and that they inherit knowledge one from another.

http://www.imamiyya.com/hadith/usul-kafi/book-4/chapter-32

http://www.imamiyya.com/hadith/usul-kafi/book-4/chapter-33

[amirhosein_88]

5 hours ago, CraftedWolf said:

I always see quotations from Imams cited as "Hadiths". Aren't Hadith only from the Prophet PBUH?

Salamun alaykun.

In the famous hadith of Thaqalayn, the Holy Prophet (صلی الله علیه و آله) asks all Muslims to refer to the Holy Quran and his Ahl al-Bayt after him. Thus, the sayings and speeches (no matter if you call them hadith or whatever you wish) of Ahl al-Bayt are as reliable as those of the Prophet.

[amirhosein_88]

3 hours ago, Abu_Rumaysah said:

as salam alaykum.

Normally our shia brothers using this hadith as a proof that whatever been narrated by Imam is equal to narration of prophet (saws).

 

Salamun alaykum.

We as Shi'a refer to many Verses and narrations which prove that the sayings of the Imams are similar to those of the Holy Prophet.

Just as one example, Chapter 4, Verse 59 reads:

يا أَيُّهَا الَّذينَ آمَنُوا أَطيعُوا اللَّهَ وَ أَطيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَ أُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْكُم

O you who have faith! Obey Allah and obey the Apostle and those vested with authority among you.

We believe that اولی الامر refers to our Imams. Then, based on this Verse, we have to obey them as we have to obey the Prophet. This means that their sayings are the same in authenticity.

[amirhosein_88]

3 hours ago, Abu_Rumaysah said:

. But you can hardly find any shia bothering himself with checking report if it is suitable for his beliefs.

With due respect, you have not bothered yourself to check the viewpoints of Shia scholars about Sahl ibn Ziyad. It is not enough just to refer to some books on Rijal and then make a judgment about the authenticity of a narrator.

There are different views with regard to Sahl ibn Ziyad and there are many scholars who regard him as reliable.

Again just as one example see what Shaykh Tusi says with regard to Sahl ibn Ziyad:

 سهل بن زياد الآدمي
يكنى أبا سعيد، ثقة، رازي.

(رجال الشیخ الطوسی، ص 387)

 

[Abu_Rumaysah]

as salam alaykum dear brother amirhosein_88

Your reference to the verse from Quran, could not be accepted like a clear cut proof for the shia idea that whatever narrated by Imam cames from prophet (saws). That is only your understanding of the verse, that honestly has nothing to do with discussed topic.

You reference to the Rijal of shaykh Toosi, I would not rely on this book a lot. Because in the very same book you can find lots of contradictions. 

Just few examples for your kind attention.

He mentioned Qutaiba ibn Muhammad between those who narrated from as-Sadiq at page 272, and then he mentioned him at page 436 between those who didn’t narrate from aimma.

Fudala ibn Ayub al-Azdi was mentioned amongst people which narrated from al-Kadhim at page 342, and amongst those who narrated from ar-Rida at page 363, and finally at page 436 he was mentioned as one who didn’t narrate from aimma.

Muawiyah ibn Hakim at page 378 was mentioned as the one who narrated from Jawad, at 392 as one who narrated from al-Hadi, and as one who didn’t narrate from aimma at page 449.

al-Qasim ibn Muhammad al-Jawhari as one who narrated from Sadiq at page 273, from al-Kadhim at 342, and the one who didn’t narrate from aimma at page 436.

al-Qasim ibn Urwa was mentioned as one who narrated from Jafar as-Sadiq at page 273, and as one who didn’t narrate from aimma at page 436.

Kulaib ibn Muawiyah was mentioned as ravi from al-Baqir at page 144, from Jafar at page 274, and as one who didn’t narrate from aimma at 436.

Muhammad ibn Isa ibn Ubayd ibn Yaqtin was mentioned as one who narrated from ar-Rida at page 376, narrated from al-Hadi at 391, from al-Askari at 401 and finally as one who didn’t narrate from aimma at 448.

Hafs ibn Ghiyas as one who narrated from al-Baqir at pae 133, from Jafar at 188, from al-Kadhim at 335 and as one who didn’t narrate from aimma at page 425.

[Abu_Rumaysah]

4 hours ago, E.L King said:

@Abu_Rumaysah

Not sure what your point is, our belief is that the Imams [as] are ma'soom (infallible), and that they are a source of Guidance as legislated by Allah [SWT], so what they say cannot be wrong - by definition.

Add to that the fact that the sahih, and possibly mutawatir narrations that prove that they have inherited the knowledge of the Prophets [as] - and that they inherit knowledge one from another.

http://www.imamiyya.com/hadith/usul-kafi/book-4/chapter-32

http://www.imamiyya.com/hadith/usul-kafi/book-4/chapter-33

as salam qabla kalam. As Salam Alaykum.

Chapter - Imams are the heirs of knowledge inherited one from the other.

Chapter - Imams inherit the knowledge of the Prophet and all the prophets and successors the came before them

That does not mean that whatever they say it is directly from prophet (saws). 

[amirhosein_88]

1 hour ago, Abu_Rumaysah said:

as salam alaykum dear brother amirhosein_88

Your reference to the verse from Quran, could not be accepted like a clear cut proof for the shia idea that whatever narrated by Imam cames from prophet (saws). That is only your understanding of the verse, that honestly has nothing to do with discussed topic.

 

Salamun alaykum.

We as Shia do not claim that our Imams always narrate from the Prophet (صلی الله علیه و آله) and based on our idea regarding Imamate, it is not needed since our Imams are infallible and their sayings are as authentic and reliable as those of the Prophet. So the Verse proves the infallibility of the Prophet and Imams and this infallibility requires that their sayings are free from any mistake or else, Allah should have not asked the Muslims to obey them unconditionally.

[Alzaynebia313]

1 hour ago, Abu_Rumaysah said:

That is only your understanding of the verse, that honestly has nothing to do with discussed topic.

 

Conversation is going great so far, but I want to ask a question not relevant to the topic (sorry).

Who do YOU (not scholars or anyone else) think are those who are vested authority over you? Any Khalifa who seems himself as an Islamic leader? e.g Abu Bakr, Umar, Muawiya etc?

[amirhosein_88]

2 hours ago, Abu_Rumaysah said:

You reference to the Rijal of shaykh Toosi, I would not rely on this book a lot. Because in the very same book you can find lots of contradictions. 

Just few examples for your kind attention.

He mentioned Qutaiba ibn Muhammad between those who narrated from as-Sadiq at page 272, and then he mentioned him at page 436 between those who didn’t narrate from aimma.

Fudala ibn Ayub al-Azdi was mentioned amongst people which narrated from al-Kadhim at page 342, and amongst those who narrated from ar-Rida at page 363, and finally at page 436 he was mentioned as one who didn’t narrate from aimma.

Muawiyah ibn Hakim at page 378 was mentioned as the one who narrated from Jawad, at 392 as one who narrated from al-Hadi, and as one who didn’t narrate from aimma at page 449.

al-Qasim ibn Muhammad al-Jawhari as one who narrated from Sadiq at page 273, from al-Kadhim at 342, and the one who didn’t narrate from aimma at page 436.

al-Qasim ibn Urwa was mentioned as one who narrated from Jafar as-Sadiq at page 273, and as one who didn’t narrate from aimma at page 436.

Kulaib ibn Muawiyah was mentioned as ravi from al-Baqir at page 144, from Jafar at page 274, and as one who didn’t narrate from aimma at 436.

Muhammad ibn Isa ibn Ubayd ibn Yaqtin was mentioned as one who narrated from ar-Rida at page 376, narrated from al-Hadi at 391, from al-Askari at 401 and finally as one who didn’t narrate from aimma at 448.

Hafs ibn Ghiyas as one who narrated from al-Baqir at pae 133, from Jafar at 188, from al-Kadhim at 335 and as one who didn’t narrate from aimma at page 425.

Rijal by Shaikh Tusi is one the oldestand most prominent works of Riajl and all Shia scholars regard it as one the best sources on Rijal.

There are 2 major problems about this book and the one you mentioned is one of them. But the point is that:

First of all, there are various answers for this objection. According to new researches, there are about 17 explanations for this. So again you have to bother yourself to read all these explanations and then to decide if it is a reliable work or not.

Second of all, even if this is a problem for this book it does not undermine the entire book. Thousands names have been mentioned in this book and to make few mistakes in categorization is justified. So you can not reject the whole book for this problem.

[Sumerian]

3 hours ago, Abu_Rumaysah said:

as salam qabla kalam. As Salam Alaykum.

Chapter - Imams are the heirs of knowledge inherited one from the other.

Chapter - Imams inherit the knowledge of the Prophet and all the prophets and successors the came before them

That does not mean that whatever they say it is directly from prophet (saws). 

Wa Alaykum Al Salam

I have a feeling you are arguing for the sake of arguing, because if they have inherited the Prophet's knowledge, and they are infallible, why would they narrate in a way that contradicts the Prophet's teachings?

But anyway, if you understand Arabic:

يا جابر والله لو كنّا نحدث الناس أو حدّثنا برأينا لكنّا من الهالكين ، ولكنّا نحدثهم بآثار عندنا من رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله يتوارثها كابرٌ عن كابر ، نكنزها كما يكنز هؤلاء ذهبهم وفضتهم

Another Hadith says "nufti" instead of "nuhadith".

This is a Sahih Hadith from Basa'ir Al-Darajat. But you will probably say the Book is weak.

Edited October 5, 2016 by E.L King

[Abu_Rumaysah]

Respected brother, can you just pick from those 17 explanations, the one which makes much sense in your view and present us here?

Talking about Sahl ibn Ziyad. It is a pity that you persisting on his reliability. Because he was named:

1) He was idiot, like said Ali ibn Muhammad, as it was reported in "Tahrir at-Tawusi" of shaykh Hasan p 272.

2) He was extremely weak, with corrupt (fasid) reports and mazhab, as he was described by ibn al-Ghadairi. Reported by shaykh Mahdi Shirazi in "al-Fawaid ar-Rijaliyah" p 142

3) He was expelled from Qum by Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Esa al-Ashari, which expressed that he is bariy (innocent) from him. And prohibited people from hearing and narrating from him. Reported by shaykh Mahdi Shirazi in "al-Fawaid ar-Rijaliyah" p 142.

4) Najashi said about Sahl that he was weak in ahadeth, NOT TO BE RELIED in this matter. Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Esa testified accused (Sahl) in guluw and lie. Reported by shaykh Mahdi Shirazi in "al-Fawaid ar-Rijaliyah" p 142.

5) Toosi himself in other book "Al-Fihrist" said Sahl is weak. Reported by shaykh Mahdi Shirazi in "al-Fawaid ar-Rijaliyah" p 142.

 

[Sumerian]

I think it makes sense to call what they narrate a Hadith.

1- As proven through Sahih Hadith - the Imams inherited the Knowledge of the Prophets.

2- Whatever they said regarding Islam had come from the Knowledge of the Prophet.

3- They will not say their own opinions, as they are Infallible, it is all from the Prophet's knowledge.