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In the Name of God بسم الله

Proving Jesus (as) was not God

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All four Gospels record Jesus as saying, "Blessed are the peace-makers; they will be called sons of God."

Bible says that God is not man
‘God is not a man’ (Numbers 23:19)
‘For I am God, and not man’ (Hosea 11:9)

 

Jesus is called a man many times in the Bible


‘a man who has told you the truth’ (John 8:40)

‘Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know.’ (Acts 2:22)

‘He will judge the world in righteousness through a man whom He has appointed’ (Acts 17:31)

‘the man Christ Jesus’ (Tim. 2:5)

 

The Bible says that God is not a son of man 


‘God is not a man nor a son of man’ (Numbers 23:19)

 

The Bible often calls Jesus ‘a son of man’ or ‘the son of man.’
‘so will the son of man be’ (Matthew 12:40)

‘For the son of man is going to come’ (Matthew 16:27)

‘until they see the son of man coming in His kingdom.’ (Matthew 28)

‘But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority’ (Mark 2:10)

‘because he is the son of man’ (John 5:27)

In the Hebrew scriptures, the ‘son of man’ is also used many times speaking of people (Job 25:6; Psalm 80:17; 144:3; Ezekiel 2:1; 2:3; 2:6-8; 3:1-3).

 

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The Qur'an said also this: Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise. Q.4:158

How can you have a free will if God, already before creating you, knew if you would become a winner or a looser? And what is the point of testing? I do not think this is fair. My belief is that God cr

Bible says that Jesus died, but God cannot die The Bible teaches that Jesus died. God cannot die. Romans 1:23 and other verses say that God is immortal. Immortal means, ‘not subject to death.’ This

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Jesus spoke to a man who had called him ‘good,’ asking him, ‘Why do you call me good?  No one is good except God alone.’ (Luke 18:19)

And he said to him, ‘Why are you asking me about what is good?  There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.’ (Matthew 19:17)

The Bible says that God is greater than Jesus


‘My Father is greater than I’ (John 14:28)
‘My father is greater than all.’ (John 10:29)

Jesus can not be God if God is greater than him.  The Christian belief that the Father and son are equal is in direct contrast to the clear words from Jesus.

Jesus never instructed his disciples to worship him:


‘When you pray, say Our Father which art in heaven.’ (Luke 11:2)

‘In that day, you shall ask me nothing.  Whatsoever you ask of the Father in my name.’ (John 16:23)

‘The hour cometh and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth; for the Father seeketh such to worship him.’ (John 4:23)

If Jesus was God, he would have sought worship for himself 

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‘that they might know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.’ (John 17:3)

‘he continued all night in prayer to God.’ (Luke 6:12)


‘Just as the son of man did not come to be served, but to serve’ (Matthew 20:28)

How did Jesus pray to God?


‘he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, ‘My Father’ (Matthew 26:39)

‘During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.’ (Hebrews 5:7)

Disciples did not believe Jesus was God
The Acts of the Apostles in the Bible details the activity of the disciples over a period of thirty years after Jesus was raised to heaven.  Throughout this period, they never referred to Jesus as God.  For instance Peter stood up with the eleven disciples and addressed a crowd saying:

‘Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.’ (Acts 2:22)

For Peter, Jesus was a servant of God (Confirmed In Matthew 12:18)


‘The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus.’ (Acts 3:13)


‘God raised up his servant’ (Acts 3:26)

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When faced by opposition from the authorities, Peter said
‘We must obey God rather than men!  The God of our fathers raised Jesus’ (Acts 5:29-30)

The disciples prayed to God just as they were commanded by Jesus in Luke 11:2, and considered Jesus to be God’s servant.

‘they raised their voices together in prayer to God.  ‘Sovereign Lord,’ they said, ‘you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them.’ (Acts 4:24)

‘your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed.’ (Acts 4:27)
‘of Your holy servant Jesus.’ (Acts 4:30)

The Bible says that Jesus was God’s servant
‘Behold, My servant, whom I have chosen, in whom My soul is well pleased.’ (Matt 12:18) Since Jesus is God’s servant, Jesus can not be God.

The Bible says that Jesus could not do anything by himself
‘The son can do nothing by himself; he can only do what he sees his Father doing.’ (John 5:19)

‘I can of mine own self do nothing.’ (John 5:30)

The Bible says that Jesus did not consider himself equal with God
and that God performed miracles through Jesus & Jesus was limited in what he could do:

‘But when the crowds saw this, they were awestruck, and glorified God, who had given such authority to men.’ (Matt. 9:8)

‘a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst.’ (Acts 2:22)

‘he went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.’ (Acts 10:38)

If Christ was God, the Bible would simply say that Jesus did the miracles himself without making reference to God.  The fact that it was God supplying the power for the miracles shows that God is greater than Jesus.

The Bible says that Jesus was God’s servant
‘Behold, My servant, whom I have chosen, in whom My soul is well pleased.’ (Matt 12:18) Since Jesus is God’s servant, Jesus can not be God.

Also, Jesus was limited in performing miracles  
One time when Jesus tried to heal a blind man, the man was not healed after the first attempt, and Jesus had to try a second time (Mark 8:22-26).  

Once a woman was healed of her incurable bleeding.  The woman came up behind him and touched his cloak, and she was immediately healed.  But Jesus had no idea who touched him:

‘At once Jesus realized that power had gone out from him.  He turned around in the crowd and asked, ‘Who touched my clothes?’ (Mark 5:30)

‘He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them.’ (Mark 6:5)

Quite obviously, someone with such limitations can not be God.  The power of miracles was not within Jesus.

The Bible says that at times of weakness angels strengthened Jesus
God ,however, does not need to be strengthened. Human need to be strengthened; God does not because God is All-Powerful.  If Jesus had to be strengthened, he must not be God.

‘An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him - in the garden of Gethsemane’ (Luke 22:43)

‘Then the devil left him; and behold, angels came and began to minister to Him’ (Mark. 1:13)

‘And he was in the wilderness forty days being tempted by Satan; and he was with the wild beasts, and the angels were ministering to him.’ (Mark 1:13)

The Bible says that Jesus wanted God’s will to be done
‘not my will but Yours be done.’ (Luke 22:42)

‘I do not seek my own will, but the will of Him who sent me.’ (John 5:30)

‘For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of Him that sent me.’ (John 6:38)

The Bible says Jesus regarded himself and God as two
‘I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father.’ (John 8:17-18:)

‘Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me.’ (John 14:1)

If Jesus was God, He would have not have regarded God’s testimony as separate from his own.

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Bible says that Jesus grew in wisdom & learning
But God is All Wise & does not need to learn: Jesus grew in wisdom, but God is all wise ‘Great is our Lord and abundant in strength; His understanding is infinite.’ (Psalms 147:5)

‘And Jesus increased in wisdom.’ (Luke 2:52)

God does not need to learn, but Jesus learned: ‘Although he was a son, he learned obedience’ (Heb. 5:8)

Jesus had limited knowledge, but god’s knowledge is infinite. Since Jesus did not know, he was not all-knowing, and therefore, he cannot be the God whose knowledge is all-encompassing.

‘No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the son, but only the Father.’(Mark 13:32)

Bible says that Jesus was tempted, but God cannot be tempted
’tempted in every way - just as we are’ (Heb. 4:15)
‘for God cannot be tempted by evil’ (James 1:13)
Since God can not be tempted, but Jesus was, therefore, Jesus was not God.

Bible says that Jesus’ teachings were from God, not from himself
‘So Jesus answered them and said, ‘My teaching is not mine, but His who sent me.’ (John 7:16)

Jesus could not have said this if he were God because the doctrine would have been his.

 

 

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Bible says that Jesus died, but God cannot die
The Bible teaches that Jesus died. God cannot die. Romans 1:23 and other verses say that God is immortal. Immortal means, ‘not subject to death.’ This term applies only to God.

Bible says that Jesus lived because of God
‘I live because of the Father.’ (John 6:57)
Jesus cannot be God because he depended on God for his own existence.

Bible says that Jesus’ powers were given to him
‘All power is given unto me.’ (Matt 28:18)
God is all-powerful, no one gives God His powers, otherwise He would not be God because He would be weak.  Therefore, Jesus could not be God.

Bible says that Jesus was taught & commanded by God
‘As my Father hath taught me, I speak these things,’ (John 8:28)
‘The Father, who sent me, he gave me a commandment.’ (John 12:49)
‘I have kept my Father’s commandments.’ (John 15:10)

No one can teach God, otherwise God cannot be All-Knowing and would owe His teacher.  Since Jesus was taught and commanded by God, Jesus cannot be God himself.  The teacher and the student, the commander and the commanded are not one.

Bible says that God made Jesus ‘Lord’!
‘God has made this Jesus both Lord and Christ.’ (Acts 2:36)
‘Lord’ is used in many ways in the Bible, and others beside God and Jesus are called ‘Lord.’ For example:

1)    property owners (Matt. 20:8)
2)    heads of households (Mark 13:35)
3)    slave owners (Matt. 10:24)
4)    husbands (1 Pet. 3:6)
5)    a son called his father Lord (Matt. 21:30)
6)    the Roman Emperor was called Lord (Acts 25:26)
7)    Roman authorities were called Lord (Matt. 27:63)

‘Lord’ is not the same as ‘God.’ ‘Lord’ (the Greek word is kurios) is a masculine title of respect and nobility used many times in the Bible.  If Jesus was God, then for the Bible to say he was ‘made’ Lord would make no sense.

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Bible says that Jesus was lower than angels


‘But we do see him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus.’ (Hebrews 2:9)

God, the Creator of angels, can not be lower than His own creation, but Jesus was.  Therefore, Jesus was not God.

Bible says that Jesus called the Father ‘my God’


‘My God, My God, why have You forsaken me?’ (Matt. 27:46)
‘I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.’ (John 20:17)

‘the temple of my God the name of my God the city of my God comes down out of heaven from my God.’ (Rev. 3:12)

Jesus did not think of himself as God, instead Jesus’ God is the same as ours.

 

Bible says that God cannot be seen
But Jesus was seen by others ‘no man has seen God at any time.’ (John 1:18)

Bible says twice that Jesus was accused of being God
But he denied it:

According to the Bible, on only two instances the Jews opposed Jesus on the basis that he pretended to be God or equal with God. Had Jesus, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him, claimed to be God, he is likely to have been opposed on this basis more frequently.

Because in these two instances, when charged, in the one case, with making himself God, and in the other, with making himself equal with God, he denied the charges.  In reply to the charge of being an equal with God, he says immediately:

‘The son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father do’; and directly after ‘I can of mine own self do nothing.’ (John 5:19, 30)

In answer to the charge of making himself God, he appeals to the Jews in substance thus: Your own Scriptures call Moses a god, and your magistrates gods; I am surely not inferior to them, yet I did not call myself God, but only the ‘son’ of God (John 10:34-36).

This is unlikely to have been Jesus’ actual response.  Hastings in ‘The Dictionary of the Bible’ says, ‘Whether Jesus used it of himself is doubtful.’ Grolier’s encyclopedia, under the heading ‘Jesus Christ,’ says, ‘it is uncertain whether the Father/Son language (Mark 18:32; Matt. 11:25-27 Par.; John Passim) goes back to Jesus himself.’

A University of Richmond professor, Dr. Robert Alley, after considerable research into newly found ancient documents concludes that:

‘The (Biblical) passages where Jesus talks about the Son of God are later additions. what the church said about him.  Such a claim of deity for himself would not have been consistent with his entire lifestyle as we can reconstruct.  For the first three decades after Jesus’ death Christianity continued as a sect within Judaism.  The first three decades of the existence of the church were within the synagogue. That would have been beyond belief if they (the followers) had boldly proclaimed the deity of Jesus.’

 

 

Assuming Jesus did say that he was ‘son’ of God.  What did it mean?

 We first need to know the language of his people, the language of the Jews to whom he was speaking.

The Bible says God had many ‘sons’
First, most people think there are no other verses that contradict or give equal divine sonship to other persons in the Old or New Testament.  

For Jesus to be called son of God, does not make him a true son of God, other wise Adam, Jacob, Ephraim and many more should also be considered as been sons of God as such they should be worshiped too according to such method.

 

Adam: ‘Adam, which was the son of God.’ (Luke 3:38)
Jacob is God’s son and firstborn: ‘Israel is my son, even my firstborn.’ (Exodus 4:22)

Solomon: ‘I will be his father, and he shall be my son.’(2 Samuel 7:13-14)

Ephraim: ‘for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.’ (Jeremiah 31:9)

is God’s firstborn, common people are called the sons of God: ‘Ye are the children of the Lord your God’(Deuteronomy 14:1)

Edited by Ya_isa (as)
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1 hour ago, freekundli said:

The Bible tells us that God is immutable. This means that he cannot change.  If he died, that would be a change. 

The Bible also tells us that God can repent. This means that he can change, and that he not yet knows everything that will happen in the future.

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On 4.10.2016 at 8:23 PM, Son of Placid said:

The Bible also says Jesus would ascend and sit on the right hand side of God's throne, not in it.

The Qur'an said also this:

Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise. Q.4:158

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Because in these two instances, when charged, in the one case, with making himself God, and in the other, with making himself equal with God, he denied the charges.  In reply to the charge of being an equal with God, he says immediately:

‘The son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father do’; and directly after ‘I can of mine own self do nothing.’ (John 5:19, 30)

 

hi Ya Isa

That verse shows how he is God.

He only does what the Father does....can anyone say they do what God does?

If Jesus is not the Word of God which pre existed..

Can he say he shared Glory with God before the World was?

Can he say he saw satan fall from heaven?

Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Can a mere mortal say before Abraham was I AM.

Can a mere mortal forgive sins?

Can a mere mortal be the Resurrection?

Can a mere mortal resurrect his own body from the grave?

This is just the tip of the iceberg.. Jesus pre-existed and came to reconcile sinful man to God through his shed blood. 

The bible clearly shows that before he was born Jesus pre-existed as God's Word and was part of creation along with the Holy Spirit..

Edited by tek91
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Just now, andres said:

The Bible also tells us that God can repent. This means that he can change, and that he not yet knows everything that will happen in the future.

You have to look at the Hebrew word nâcham which has meanings of

to be sorry," "console oneself," "repent," "regret," and "be comforted

In other word God was grieved and regretted, because of so much sin.

So no God did not change his mind...For instance in Genesis 6:6 he regretted making man because of their wickedness and sin.

Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart

Edited by tek91
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Assuming Jesus did say that he was ‘son’ of God.  What did it mean?

Jesus was only BEGOTTEN Son of God.

1 John 4:9 By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him

Who was Jesus Father if it was not Joseph? Remember Mary was a virgin.

Edited by tek91
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Bible says that Jesus was lower than angels


‘But we do see him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus.’ (Hebrews 2:9)

God, the Creator of angels, can not be lower than His own creation, but Jesus was.  Therefore, Jesus was not God.

 

It says he WAS MADE lower than the angels..

For a little while......You get it ? Do you get the concept pre existing and manifesting in flesh for a while?

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Just now, freekundli said:

The Bible tells us that God is immutable. This means that he cannot change.  If he died, that would be a change. 

God can't die the flesh the Word of God manifested in died as a sacrificial offering for remission of our sins.

That's why John referred to him as Lamb of God.....

John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming unto him, and said, Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world.

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Just now, Dhulfikar said:

The Qur'an said also this:

Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise. Q.4:158

I question any force trying to say Jesus never died, look at this verse..

Matthew 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. 22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. 23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

I believe something is trying to rob you of remission of sin and relationship with God.

I am telling you this because I don't want any of you to die in sin.

Trust me you don't want to drink of the cup of God's wrath, that you could have avoided if your sins were forgiven.

Edited by tek91
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3 hours ago, tek91 said:

You have to look at the Hebrew word nâcham which has meanings of

to be sorry," "console oneself," "repent," "regret," and "be comforted

In other word God was grieved and regretted, because of so much sin.

So no God did not change his mind...For instance in Genesis 6:6 he regretted making man because of their wickedness and sin.

Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart

Nacham have many meanings, and the translation depends on the context. Interpretation is not always easy. Some Christians believe in predestination, others dont. The Bible is a collection of work of many writers, Jewish and Christian, written during a period of about 800 years. Probably they also had different views on predestination.  Unlike the Bible, the Quran was written within a short period of time, the persons involved most likely all knew eachother and lived in the same culture. Still the question of predestination also exists within Islam. When we say God is almighty, the predestinstion question comes automatically. I do not believe in a God that on purpose has created some humans to spend an eternity in pain in hell. Neither do I believe all wars and genocides is Gods will. I do not believe we all are parts in a play already written. Should I be wrong, there is nothing I can do about it.

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2 hours ago, freekundli said:

God know everything. God know what will happen in future. God doesn't need your prayer.

Has God planned everything? Also evils like wars, genocide, crusaders and terror? Was Hitler, Stalin or Judas sent by God to perform his will? And as reward they will end up in Hell? Or maybe Heaven?

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Just now, andres said:

Has God planned everything? Also evils like wars, genocide, crusaders and terror? Was Hitler, Stalin or Judas sent by God to perform his will? And as reward they will end up in Hell? Or maybe Heaven?

God doesn't plan that. People have free will.. Judas used his free will to betray Jesus.The Jews of the Old Testament used their free will to kill the prophets and Jesus. Cain and Abel the list goes on.

God sometimes uses what is meant for evil for the purpose of good, like how he used Josephs brother betraying him and ending up in slavery and prison to making him a person of high position. God used the acts of the Jews and Romans of crucifying Jesus to bring atonement of sin to the World...

Basically what the enemy meant for evil God turns to good.

Edited by tek91
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Nacham have many meanings, and the translation depends on the context. Interpretation is not always easy. Some Christians believe in predestination, others dont. The Bible is a collection of work of many writers, Jewish and Christian, written during a period of about 800 years. Probably they also had different views on predestination.  Unlike the Bible, the Quran was written within a short period of time, the persons involved most likely all knew eachother and lived in the same culture.

Hi Andres, according to our beliefs, God wrote the bible.

God breathed on the writers his Holy Spirit...

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 2 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Quote

Still the question of predestination also exists within Islam. When we say God is almighty, the predestinstion question comes automatically. I do not believe in a God that on purpose has created some humans to spend an eternity in pain in hell. Neither do I believe all wars and genocides is Gods will. I do not believe we all are parts in a play already written. Should I be wrong, there is nothing I can do about it.

The humans who spend eternity in hell choose that decision, because they choose to be separated from God... Hell was meant for satan and his angels not for humans but humans are wicked and live in sin, that's why God made a way of reconciling men unto himself... the blood of Jesus and that's why people need to remove their sin and be made white as snow before Almighty God.....

In the beginning there was no wars or evil when Adam and Eve DISOBEYED God. They used their free will and sin came into the World...

Wars happen because of men and free will yet God makes us prevail from the evil when we trust in him. He brought countless victories in war for his people in the Old Testament when they returned to him and followed his laws.

Like I said God uses evil for the purpose of good in our lives when we are obedient to him.

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Just now, Dhulfikar said:

I also question those who claim he died too. 

It all goes down to what is truth.... I encourage you to read these POWERFUL words of Jesus.

John 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. 10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. 11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. 12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. 13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. 17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

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30 minutes ago, tek91 said:

It all goes down to what is truth.... I encourage you to read these POWERFUL words of Jesus.

John 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. 10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. 11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. 12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. 13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. 17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Do you think this is a valid proof that Jesus died? Well it's not.

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Just now, Dhulfikar said:

Do you think this is a valid proof that Jesus died? Well it's not.

I don't think anything will be proof to you when you are convinced the quran is truth...The bible has countless verses where it shows how Jesus died... Even Jesus himself talking to his disciples and telling them how he must die and raise again the third day.

Jesus was very straight forward that he HAD TO DIE and had to drink of the cup..

Mark 9:31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

John 19:33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:

His last words was IT IS FINISHED.. what was finished his plan for atonement....

The bible clearly shows Jesus died... I would ask you to question anything that says he never died your soul is at risk....

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Just now, Dhulfikar said:

No, that is your assumption. 

I am saying this because I brought countless verse where Jesus himself tells his disciples he must die and raised again, he gives his life for the sheep, The New Testament even has step by step leading up to the cross, when he gave up his spirit, when Romans saw he was dead already, ....even when Joseph took the body to bury it. 

What kind of proof do you want?

John 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.

Tell me what do you believe was accomplished in that verse?

Edited by tek91
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Just now, Dhulfikar said:

Unbiased proof.

You mean like records outside NT from people who existed near the time ? 

Tacitus

Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.”

Mara bar Serapion

What benefit did the Athenians obtain by putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as judgment for their crime. Or, the people of Samos for burning Pythagoras? In one moment their country was covered with sand. Or the Jews by murdering their wise king?…After that their kingdom was abolished. God rightly avenged these men…The wise king…Lived on in the teachings he enacted.”

Phlegon

“And with regard to the eclipse in the time of Tiberius Caesar, in whose reign Jesus appears to have been crucified, and the great earthquakes which then took place … ” (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 33)

“Jesus, while alive, was of no assistance to himself, but that he arose after death, and exhibited the marks of his punishment, and showed how his hands had been pierced by nails.” (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 59)

Pliny the Younger shows how early Christian Jews believed Jesus was God

“They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food—but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.”

Lucian of Samosata:

The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day—the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account….You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property.” (Lucian, The Death of Peregrine. 11-13)

Josephus

Now around this time lived Jesus, a wise man. For he was a worker of amazing deeds and was a teacher of people who gladly accept the truth. He won over both many Jews and many Greeks. Pilate, when he heard him accused by the leading men among us, condemned him to the cross, (but) those who had first loved him did not cease (doing so). To this day the tribe of Christians named after him has not disappeared

Sanhedrin 43 ad

“It was taught: On the day before the Passover they hanged Jesus. A herald went before him for forty days (proclaiming), “He will be stoned, because he practiced magic and enticed Israel to go astray. Let anyone who knows anything in his favor come forward and plead for him.” But nothing was found in his favor, and they hanged him on the day before the Passover.

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There are three claims on the issue, one which says Jesus died in cross, Second says Jesus did not die in cross but it made appear to people that he died, and third is that Jesus did not die on cross. We know that either he died or not. And both Christians and Islam agree that he was ascended.

For the proof, it needs to be from all side possible. But how someone can prove the Islamic claim about Jesus did not die but it made appear to people that he died? Even if the people says that they witnessed he died, how can they be sure it is the same person?

No one deny the event, it did happen.

Edited by Dhulfikar
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Just now, Dhulfikar said:

There are three claims on the issue, one which says Jesus died in cross, Second says Jesus did not die in cross but it made appear to people that he died, and third is that Jesus did not die on cross. We know that either he died or not. And both Christians and Islam agree that he was ascended.

For the proof, it needs to be from all side possible. But how someone can prove the Islamic claim about Jesus did not die but it made appear to people that he died? Even if the people says that they witnessed he died, how can they be sure it is the same person?

Which one says he did not die but appeared as he died? Yes Christians and Muslims agree that he ascended but Christians believe he ascended after he was resurrected from the dead..

I mean I don't think I can do any more than all I showed you...it's up to you to believe and make decision now... your soul and relationship with God is on the line I hope you make the wise choice.

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