Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
ShiaChat.com
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله

Proving Jesus (as) was not God

Rate this topic


Recommended Posts

  • Advanced Member
43 minutes ago, iCambrian said:

Andres: "Only a cruel God would create humans he knew would be losers."

"i am very certain God knows if there are losers or not"

but did he know there would be losers upon creating humans, or not?

Am I being unclear?????

My belief is that God knew there would be losers. But I do not believe God had decided who. He gave us a free will.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 108
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

The Qur'an said also this: Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise. Q.4:158

All four Gospels record Jesus as saying, "Blessed are the peace-makers; they will be called sons of God." Bible says that God is not man ‘God is not a man’ (Numbers 23:19) ‘For I am God, and

Bible says that Jesus died, but God cannot die The Bible teaches that Jesus died. God cannot die. Romans 1:23 and other verses say that God is immortal. Immortal means, ‘not subject to death.’ This

  • Advanced Member
Just now, andres said:

Do you also know the future?

I know not because of myself. I know because of the prophecies described in bible by God.

For instance how Jesus will come again as a Lion instead of a Lamb and how there will be a new Heaven and Earth and how satan and hell will be cast into the lake of fire and many other things.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
8 hours ago, iCambrian said:

But did God know which humans would be losers? 

I think youre dancing around your words

I have said I do not believe God knows which. Maybe you have not seen. Why would God create humans he knows he will send to hell? And if he does, we have god no free will.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
41 minutes ago, iCambrian said:

Its interesting that you believe God would lack knowledge of His own creation. But alright, thanks for sharing.

I can only understand you so that you believe God on purpose created humans to eternal condemnation in hell. Have you got any idea if it is the majority or minority that are winners?  

Am I correct to conclude you do not believe that God gave us a free will?

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

Im just examining your statement there.  Nothing more, nothing less.

Personally, I think the question is flawed from the start. Because, well, as we can see you seem to be concluding that God either lacks knowledge of His own creation, or He is evil. 

I think that, the lack of knowledge we have of God, has led to the creation of this false delimma.

and this I think is really a problem for the OP itself.  the title "proving jesus as was not god" in and of itself is broken because the OP isnt in a position to even define what God is to begin with, let alone could he prove or disprove what God is or is not.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

A lot of this goes back to people, trying to understand existence, while depending on very literal interpretations of scripture and literature in general. Scripture, will only get people so far. Some muslims have been quoting the Quran saying, well here it says Jesus didnt die. Others are saying, well here in this scripture it says He did. 

Ultimately, neither is in a position to go much further than presuppositions, because this event is really only understood through literature, and there is nothing physical remaining to confirm or deny either.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
29 minutes ago, iCambrian said:

Im just examining your statement there.  Nothing more, nothing less.

Personally, I think the question is flawed from the start. Because, well, as we can see you seem to be concluding that God either lacks knowledge of His own creation, or He is evil. 

I think that, the lack of knowledge we have of God, has led to the creation of this false delimma.

and this I think is really a problem for the OP itself.  the title "proving jesus as was not god" in and of itself is broken because the OP isnt in a position to even define what God is to begin with, let alone could he prove or disprove what God is or is not.

And I am examining your position.

If God from the very start knew which humans that are going to spend an eternity in the flames of Hell, why did he create them? 

And now that He did so, how could they possibly have a free will and a possibility to change the verdict?

Or do you agree with me? Or maybe you just dont have an opinion?

Edited by andres
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
19 minutes ago, andres said:

And I am examining your position.

If God from the very start knew which humans that are going to spend an eternity in the flames of Hell, why did he create them? 

And now that He did so, how could they possibly have a free will and a possibility to change the verdict?

Or do you agree with me? Or maybe you just dont have an opinion?

I am not in a position to say.  While I do trust in Christ and His message of salvation, it is a very beautiful message, I recognize that I am not aware of information that would allow me to respond with confidence.  Even something as simple as "eternity in the flames of hell", i would say is something people really do not have knowledge of.  Many view this in a literal way, but could something like indefinitely burning people in fire, actually exist in a physical way, somewhere?  Or is it meant to represent something else?

So far as we are aware, people and flames cannot burn indefinitely, so there must be a detail that we are missing, and with that, questions arise as to what is actually meant when you make the statement about hell.  I couldnt answer a question without understanding what the question means to begin with.

And in relation to the OP, proving if Jesus is or is not God, contains a lot of unknowns. To the extent that, the OP itself is broken upon arrival. The same goes for the problem of evil (or lack thereof).

Edited by iCambrian
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
51 minutes ago, iCambrian said:

I am not in a position to say.  While I do trust in Christ and His message of salvation, it is a very beautiful message, I recognize that I am not aware of information that would allow me to respond with confidence.  Even something as simple as "eternity in the flames of hell", i would say is something people really do not have knowledge of.  Many view this in a literal way, but could something like indefinitely burning people in fire, actually exist in a physical way, somewhere?  Or is it meant to represent something else?

So far as we are aware, people and flames cannot burn indefinitely, so there must be a detail that we are missing, and with that, questions arise as to what is actually meant when you make the statement about hell.  I couldnt answer a question without understanding what the question means to begin with.

And in relation to the OP, proving if Jesus is or is not God, contains a lot of unknowns. To the extent that, the OP itself is broken upon arrival. The same goes for the problem of evil (or lack thereof).

I do not know if there is a fire or not in Hell, and nor did the writers of the Bible, so I do not understand it to be literally. Actually Jews did not believe in afterlife before the Babylonian diaspora, and therefore Hell is not very well discribed in the OT, probably the reason for the many ideas of how it is like.

And what precisely is Jesus? No human knows the entire truth, and it is not a matter of proof, it is a matter of belief. Muslims believe the Quran, we believe the NT, and Jews believe he died on the cross.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...
  • Advanced Member

I believe God knows everybody who would go to heaven or hell bc he is all knowing, all powerful, almighty. But because he knows I don't think he controls your will to predestine you but rather destiny is controlled by humanity own's action thus making it your fate bc God ALLOWED it to happen. Just like Adam and Eve he knew they was gunna sin but just let it happen.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 4 years later...
  • Advanced Member
On 10/5/2016 at 8:32 AM, andres said:

The Bible also tells us that God can repent. This means that he can change, and that he not yet knows everything that will happen in the future.

Isnt this statement a bit contradictory?

 

first of if God repents, who does he repent to, himself?

If God is all powerful and all knowing how does he not know what will happen in the future

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 3 weeks later...
  • Advanced Member

Here is how Clement I saw Jesus: 

"The Apostles have preached to us from the King Jesus the Messiah; Jesus the Messiah from God. The Messiah therefore was sent by God, the Apostles by the Messiah; so both were orderly sent, according to the will of God. For having received their command, and being thoroughly assured by the resurrection of our King Jesus the Messiah; and convinced by the word of God, with the fullness of the Holy Spirit, they went abroad, publishing, That the kingdom of God was at hand." 

 

"Have we not all one God, and one Messiah? Is not one spirit of grace poured out upon us all? Have we not one calling in the Messiah? Why then do we rend and tear in pieces the members of the Messiah; and raise seditious against our own body? And are come to such a height of madness, as to forget that we were members one of another?"

Both from his only authentic Epistle (which was for a long time considered 'inspired' NT canon). 

He believed in the resurrection but not in the deity of Jesus.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

Ask Christians these questions.

All you need is some logic,

Who is the Father of Jesus? God.

Who is the Mother of Jesus? Mary. 

Is Jesus God? Yes. 

Did God create Mary? Yes.

Is God uncreated? Yes.

Does God create all Humans? Yes.

So Jesus is a Human on Earth but still god even though he is Created? Uhh

And God created Mary so he could Create God? Uhhh

 

Again all you need is Logic, Wa Alsalam

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
On 11/19/2020 at 11:57 PM, al-Muttaqin said:

Here is how Clement I saw Jesus: 

"The Apostles have preached to us from the King Jesus the Messiah; Jesus the Messiah from God. The

<snip>

Both from his only authentic Epistle (which was for a long time considered 'inspired' NT canon). 

He believed in the resurrection but not in the deity of Jesus.

Hi there.

Clement had pretty orthodox beliefs about Jesus as God. He talks about the Trinity:

Have we not one God and one Christ and one Spirit of grace that was shed upon us? (46:6)

For as God liveth, and the Lord Jesus Christ liveth, and the Holy Spirit, who are the faith and the hope of the elect, (58:2)

He was happy to use God and Christ interchangeably:

Let him that hath love in Christ fulfill the commandments of Christ. Who can declare the bond of the love of God? Who is sufficient to tell the majesty of its beauty? (49:1-3)

For it is better for you to be found little in the flock of Christ and to have your name on God's roll than to be had in exceeding honor and yet be cast out from the hope of Him. (57:2)

And declared Christ to be God's unique Son:

...His elect throughout the whole world, through His beloved Son Jesus Christ, through whom He called us from darkness to light, from ignorance to the full knowledge of the glory of His Name. (59:2)

and hast chosen out from all men those that love Thee through Jesus Christ, Thy beloved Son, through whom Thou didst instruct us, didst sanctify us, didst honor us. (59:3)

The quotes you give talk about Jesus as the Jewish Messiah, which He was. It's not at all a contradiction to say that when God did the things He always said He would do in the Old Testament, He also did the job of the Jewish Messiah.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
On 11/23/2020 at 8:06 AM, Leslie P said:

Hi there.

Clement had pretty orthodox beliefs about Jesus as God. He talks about the Trinity:

Have we not one God and one Christ and one Spirit of grace that was shed upon us? (46:6)

For as God liveth, and the Lord Jesus Christ liveth, and the Holy Spirit, who are the faith and the hope of the elect, (58:2)

He was happy to use God and Christ interchangeably:

Let him that hath love in Christ fulfill the commandments of Christ. Who can declare the bond of the love of God? Who is sufficient to tell the majesty of its beauty? (49:1-3)

For it is better for you to be found little in the flock of Christ and to have your name on God's roll than to be had in exceeding honor and yet be cast out from the hope of Him. (57:2)

And declared Christ to be God's unique Son:

...His elect throughout the whole world, through His beloved Son Jesus Christ, through whom He called us from darkness to light, from ignorance to the full knowledge of the glory of His Name. (59:2)

and hast chosen out from all men those that love Thee through Jesus Christ, Thy beloved Son, through whom Thou didst instruct us, didst sanctify us, didst honor us. (59:3)

The quotes you give talk about Jesus as the Jewish Messiah, which He was. It's not at all a contradiction to say that when God did the things He always said He would do in the Old Testament, He also did the job of the Jewish Messiah.

You are projecting 5th century Christian theology back onto Clements writings which is dishonest and bad interpretation of his writings. None of what you have quoted even remotely implies what you claim it says. If you confronted Clement and told him what you are telling me, he would look at you like you punched him in the face or something. He would have no idea what you're going on, as with the rest of the earliest "Christian" writers and authors. 

Edited by al-Muttaqin
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

Thanks for the reply.

Clement had orthodox beliefs about Jesus as God. The quotes above should be enough for most, but for a different perspective, lets try what neutral commentators have to say, starting with Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clement_of_Alexandria

in particular the comments on Clement's use of Christ as the divine Logos and Christ's unique sharing of the likeness of God the Father.

Also the commentary on Brittanica confirming Clement's use of Jesus as divine Logos:

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Christology/Early-history

And Encyclopedia.com with more of the same:

https://www.encyclopedia.com/humanities/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/clement-alexandria-c-150-c-213

Clement is very keen in the sort of thing John 1 has to say about Christ being the divine Word become Flesh (Word=Logos)

In more general terms, what the Church Fathers were doing was commentating on what was in the New Testament. Therefore, an excellent starting point for what Clement and his contemporaries thought would be the New Testament, and that is pretty clear that Jesus is to be seen as God appearing to humanity in human form.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

Hi al-Muttaqin

I have read your long post, every section, stating with the heading of ‘Jesus the Divine,’ where the writer tries to cover all angles with presenting both sides,

--- Quote:  (Starting with) “The orthodox denial that Jesus was a ‘mere man.’ --- In the variants one finds the stark expression of the Orthodox belief that Jesus is far more than a man, that he is in fact divine. --- In the Orthodox tradition, especially as it developed towards the formulations of Nicea and Chalcedon, this divinity was not something that had been bestowed upon Jesus at some point of his earthly existence; it was a divinity that was shared with God the Father from eternity past. --- Thus two types of variants come under scrutiny: those who heighten Jesus’ divine character (He is God), and those that minimize his human limitations (he was more than a mere man).”  

--- Because the writer is using writings that consider the trinity belief, and no doubt being himself a trinitarian, he favors tradition of the Churches, and the conclusions of both sides are not according to the Scriptures.

I believe you do a lot of studying of Church history with the thought of finding corruption in Church beliefs, so that you feel justified in not believing anything in the Scriptures. --- However, you seem to be drawn to the subject and Person of Jesus. --- In former posts you did not continue our discussion, so I wonder if you are interested here in examining what is included in this long dissertation? --- It is as bad to use the false information of others as it is to believe it yourself.

The truth is there in the Scriptures, so, if you are willing, we can examine the interesting subjects you mentioned, including the second section from 1 Timothy 3:18 which is introduced in verse 16 “And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness.”

Proverbs 25:2 “It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to 'search out' a matter.”

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

Hi al-Muttaqin

To go to the next section which uses the Scripture from 1 Peter 3:

16 “Without controversy great is the mystery (hidden truth) of godliness:

God was manifested in the flesh, --- Justified in the Spirit, --- Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles, --- Believed on in the world, --- Received up in glory.”

--- It doesn’t mention names so we should start with Jesus, the One we know the best.

Starting with Surah 3, it gives us all the information, but it adds even more mystery with the birth of Jesus:

Yusuf Ali: 3:42 Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God hath chosen thee and purified thee- chosen thee above the women of all nations.

43 "O Mary! worship Thy Lord devoutly: Prostrate thyself, and bow down (in prayer) with those who bow down."

44 This is part of the tidings of the things unseen, which We reveal unto thee (O Apostle!) by inspiration: Thou wast not with them when they cast lots with arrows, as to which of them should be charged with the care of Mary:

45 Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honor in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;

46 "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."

47 She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: God createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!

48 "And God will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,

49 "And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by God's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;

50 "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me.

51 "'It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'"

--- And one verse holds more mystery, as the different translators identify:

Khalifa: 45 The angels said, "O Mary, GOD gives you good news: a Word from Him whose name is `The Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary. He will be prominent in this life and in the Hereafter, and one of those closest to Me.'

Shakir: 45 When the angels said: O Marium, surely Allah gives you good news with a Word from Him (of one) whose name is the '. Messiah, Isa son of Marium, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near (to Allah).

Sher Ali: When the angels said, `O Mary, ALLAH gives thee glad tidings of a son through a word from HIM; his name shall be the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, honored in this world and in the next, and of those who are granted nearness to God;

--- Notice that this information was given to Muhammad 'by inspiration' in verse 44, so it is the truth from God.

Notice also that Yusuf Ali, Khalifa, and Shakir capitalize ‘Word’ in 45. --- Sher Ali says ‘a son through a "word" from HIM.’

--- So the added mystery is, “Who was the Word?”

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

Hi al-Muttaqin,

To examine Jesus in the Quran from Surah 3 we see that Mary was chosen as His mother in 45. --- But it says these ‘glad tidings’ or this ‘good news’ would come from ‘the Word,’ in the form of a son. And his name would be Christ Jesus, son of Mary. --- Notice the wording:

Yusuf Ali: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary,

Khalifa: a Word from Him whose name is `The Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary.’

Shakir: with a Word from Him (of one) whose name is the Messiah, Isa son of Marium,

Sher Ali: a son through a word from HIM; his name shall be the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary,

The name Christ means Messiah, and the name Jesus means Savior. ---So right away we have three Personages involved in the birth of Jesus. --- The ‘Word’ from heaven, ‘Christ’ from heaven and ‘Jesus’ the Savior, born on earth.  And the end of 45 says, “Held in honor in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God.”

That means that Jesus, who was to be born on earth would be the one HONORED IN THE HEREAFTER as the Savior for all mankind. --- So the focus was all on this Son, JESUS, who was decided upon in heaven when God said, “Be, and it is,” --- but born on earth. --- An unnatural birth of a Holy Child who would change the course of history.

It says in Matthew 1:20 “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.” --- (JESUS means Savior.)

22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet (Isaiah), saying: 23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

--- This was Christ the Messiah, also called, Immanuel, with the special meaning, “God with us.” --- Which relates to a verse in 2 Corinthians 5:19 “That God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself.” --- So God used both Jesus and Christ in the new plan of Salvation through Faith in God, which produced good works.

And notice verse 44 “This is part of the tidings of the things unseen, which We (God) reveal unto thee (O Apostle, Muhammad!) BY INSPIRATION.” --- That means ‘revealed to the mind to be spoken by the mouth.’

--- If you and other Muslims don’t understand this Gospel message, (which means ‘good news’), that was first written in the Gospel accounts and then revealed to Muhammad some 600 years later, --- and written plainly in the Quran, --- how can you say you believe your Quran?

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

Hi al-Muttaqin

--- If you understand this that is written plainly in the Quran, it will answer some of your questions.

The plan of Salvation through Faith was determined in heaven before it was enacted on earth.

When God says, “Be, and it is” there is no argument with that. --- So the plan involved the Word from heaven, sending Christ to earth, to indwell the physical body of Jesus.  

Jesus represented ‘sinful man’ but was without sin, and Christ represented the holiness of God. A verse in 2 Corinthians says it plainly:

5:21 For He hath made him (Jesus) to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him (Christ).

--- I will now give the verses which explain this from the Book of Hebrews chapter 10:

10:1 For since the Law has merely a rude outline (foreshadowing) of the good things to come—instead of fully expressing those things—it can never by offering the same sacrifices continually year after year make perfect those who approach [its altars].

2 For if it were otherwise, would [these sacrifices] not have stopped being offered? Since the worshipers had once for all been cleansed, they would no longer have any guilt or consciousness of sin.

3 But [as it is] these sacrifices annually bring a fresh remembrance of sins [to be atoned for],

4 Because the blood of bulls and goats is powerless to take sins away.

 

5 Hence, when He [Christ] entered into the world, He said, Sacrifices and offerings You have not desired, but instead You have made ready a body for Me [to offer];

6 In burnt offerings and sin offerings You have taken no delight.

7 Then I said, Behold, here I am, coming to do Your will, O God—[to fulfill] what is written of Me in the volume of the Book. --- ( Isaiah 48:16)

8 When He said just before, You have neither desired, nor have You taken delight in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings—all of which are offered according to the Law—

9 He then went on to say, Behold, [here] I am, coming to do Your will. Thus He does away with and annuls the first (former) order [as a means of expiating sin] so that He might inaugurate and establish the second (latter) order.

10 And in accordance with this will [of God], we have been made holy (consecrated and sanctified) through the offering made once for all of the body of Jesus Christ (the Anointed One).

11 Furthermore, every [human] priest stands [at his altar of service] ministering daily, offering the same sacrifices over and over again, which never are able to strip [from every side of us] the sins [that envelop us] and take them away—

12 Whereas this One [Christ], after He had offered a single sacrifice for our sins [that shall avail] for all time, sat down at the right hand of God,

13 Then to wait until His enemies should be made a stool beneath His feet.

14 For by a single offering He has forever completely cleansed and perfected those who are consecrated and made holy.

15 And also the Holy Spirit adds His testimony to us [in confirmation of this]. For having said,

16 This is the agreement (testament, covenant) that I will set up and conclude with them after those days, says the Lord: I will imprint My laws upon their hearts, and I will inscribe them on their minds (on their inmost thoughts and understanding),

17 He then goes on to say, And their sins and their lawbreaking I will remember no more.

18 Now where there is absolute remission (forgiveness and cancellation of the penalty) of these [sins and lawbreaking], there is no longer any offering made to atone for sin.

--- As it says in verse 9 He has taken away the first (former) order, meaning the OT sacrifices for sin, --- to inaugurate  and establish the new order of --- Salvation by God’s grace, through faith.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

Hi al-Muttaqin

So we can see from the above verses that Jesus was the Vessel prepared on earth in a flesh and blood body for the spiritual Christ to indwell.

--- While you may want to object to this concept, it is the same as our human bodies that the Holy Spirit can indwell today. --- The difference was that Jesus was born holy, without sin, so when Jesus’ blood was shed, He was the acceptable sacrifice for sin for all mankind.

However, since Christ said, “A body You have prepared for Me,” Christ also claimed the body, so that it could also properly be said that ‘the blood of Christ’ was shed.

Now a few verses from the Scriptures, to clarify who Jesus was.

Galatians 4:4 “But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out,“Abba, Father!” 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.”

--- This explains the relationship again that Jesus was born of a human Mother, so was the human Vessel, but called the Son of God. --- And believers are ‘adopted’ into the family of God as ‘heirs’ of His promise of eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

--- Remember Surah 3:45 Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;

And this tells how Jesus was glorified in heaven, by being made the High Priest, after the order of Melchizedek.

Hebrews 7:20 And inasmuch as He was not made priest without an oath 

21 (for they have become priests without an oath, but He with an oath by Him who said to Him:

“The Lord has sworn and will not relent, ‘You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek’ ”),

22 by 'so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant.'

23 Also there were many priests, because they were prevented by death from continuing. 24 But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

--- So Jesus became our High Priest in heaven in a new sanctuary as it says in Hebrews 12:2 “Looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

--- Notice that Jesus is not seated at the ‘right hand of God,’ as many suppose, but he is seated at the right hand of ‘the throne of God,’ in a separate building, as it says in Hebrews 8:

1 Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.

--- But it does say this about Christ in Hebrews 10:12 “Whereas this One [Christ], after He had offered a single sacrifice for our sins [that shall avail] for all time, sat down at the right hand of God.”

So Jesus became our High Priest in heaven, in a new sanctuary, not made with human hands, --- ‘ever there to make intercession for us.’ --- And Christ who is called the Redeemer and King, is seated at the ‘right hand of God.’

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

Hi al-Muttaqin

To continue with the verse from 1 Timothy 3:

16 “And without controversy great is the MYSTERY of Godliness --- ‘God was manifest’ (or made known) in the flesh.”

--- We identified Jesus as being ‘born of a woman, born under the law,’ so Jesus was human. Therefore Jesus could not have been God, because God is not human.

The third paragraph in your long post suggested that the creed referred to Christ as God. --- Then it mentions the Greek word ‘Theos’ and suggests this explanation.  

Quote: Second, we cannot overlook what the reading ‘Theos’ provided for the orthodox scribe --- a clear affirmation that God became incarnate in the person of Jesus Christ. This certainly is the orthodox ‘mystery,’ --- It was “God” who was manifest in flesh.

We will go again to this verse in Surah 3:45 Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary.”

--- So the question again is, “Who was the Word?”

John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

--- While this says who the Word is (or represents), it mentions two Gods.

We have been taught that there is ONE GOD, and the Jews have the name “Yachid” meaning an ‘Absolute One.’ --- So there is One Almighty and Everlasting God “Yachid.”

--- However in Genesis 1, where it says, “In the beginning God created,” --- the Hebrew word for God is “Elohim” which is a plural name for God.

In the creation of man, God said, “Let Us make man in Our image.” --- So we have a plural name again, which is the same as the plural name in the Quran where it says in Surah 5:

48 “To thee (Muhammad) We (God) sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety.”

I will explain this later, but in the Greek it says this in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God (Theov), and the Word was God (Theos).

A Hebrew and Greek scholar told me that ‘Theos,’ referring to ‘the Word,’ was subject to, or a servant of, ‘Theov’. --- Which we will see later. --- So the Word was God ‘Theos.’

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

Hi al-Muttaqin

To continue with the Greek word Theos.

It is used again in John 1:18 “No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten [h]Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.”  The footnote [h] reads ‘only begotten God.’

The literal Greek wording says, “God (Theov) no man has seen never. The only begotten God (Theos) the one being in the bosom of the Father, that one declared Him.

The New International Version says 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

--- This corresponds fairly well with Surah 3:45 Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of ‘a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus,’ the son of Mary, held in honor in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;

---So God (Theov) gave the responsibility of the plan of salvation on earth to the Word who was called God (Theos). --- And the Word would be represented on earth in the Person of Jesus Christ. --- However, neither the Word, nor Christ could be seen, so the one seen was Jesus. --- And Jesus, who represented the Word and Christ was ‘held in honor in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God.’

--- What may be confusing is that the Word, who was called God, was also called ‘the only begotten Son’ of God. --- While it seems strange to us, God commissioned the Word as ‘God’ in the new creation, --- as well as a second generation, ‘His only begotten Son.’

To add to the confusion, Christ is called the Son of God, as well as the ‘Son of Man’ in the Gospels. --- And Jesus is called the Son of God, --- though He was the son of Mary.

It says in John 1:14 “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.”

The Word did not literally become flesh because God had already provided the flesh and blood body of Jesus, who could be seen, and who represented both the Word and Christ. Hebrews 10:5 Therefore, when He (Christ) came into the world, He said: “Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, but a body You have prepared for Me."

--- While Jesus was seen and heard, and glorified as being the Messenger of God, --- it was the wisdom of the Word and of Christ that spoke through Jesus.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

Hi al-Muttaqin

1 Timothy 3:16: “Great is the Mystery of godliness.” --- And there is more mystery revealed concerning the Word (Theos), who was commissioned by God (Theov) to bring in the plan of salvation for mankind, replacing the Old Covenant, that was given through Moses,  --- with the New Covenant which came through The Word, and Christ Jesus.

As we continue in John 1 we get more information, which needs more explanation.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 

3 All things were made through Him (the Word), and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was ‘life’ (the Spirit of life), and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light (spiritual enlightenment) shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

When it says “All things were made through Him’ it means the Word was involved in the creation ON THIS EARTH, --- but not in the first creation.

John’s Witness: The True Light

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John (the Baptist). 7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light (with a capital L) that all through him (John’s message) might believe. 

8 He (John) was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 

9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

10 He (the Word, who was the Light of the world) was in the world, and the world was made through Him (the Word), and the world did not know Him. 

11 He came to His own (domain, creation) and His own (people, the Jews) did not receive Him. 

12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right (or privilege) to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 

13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (Who were born spiritually, under the New Covenant.)

--- The Word was also the Light, which again needs explanation.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

Continuing in John 1:

8 He (John) was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 

9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

---The Greek word for light is φῶς, or φωτός, and is used of the Light in John 1:8-9

Written this way in the Greek: 8 He (John) was not that Light (φῶς), but was sent to bear witness of that Light (φωτός). 

9 That was the true Light (φῶς) which gives light to every man coming into the world.

On a ‘word study’ it says this word is used for Light (φῶς) in Genesis 1:3 and 4, where this is recorded,

1:3 Then God said, “Let there be Light (φῶς)”; and there was Light. 4 And God saw the Light (φῶς), that it was good; 

--- This shows that the Light was brought in from an outside source. --- Light had already been created, but in the beginning of our world, it was brought in by the Word, as it says in John 1:9 “That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.”

And it continues in Genesis 1:4 And God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.

This was the special Light of the Word that ‘was there in the beginning with God.’ --- Because the sun was not put in place as a permanent light for the earth until the fourth day.

1:14  Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16 Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. 17 God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 So the evening and the morning were the fourth day.”

As it says again in John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God (Theov), and the Word was God (Theos). 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him (the Word), and without Him nothing was made that was made.

--- So in the beginning there was God, Elohim, who is called Jehovah by the Jews. --- And the Holy Spirit was there with God in the beginning, as it says in Genesis 1:2 “And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.”  (To bring life to the sea.) --- And the Word brought the Light.

It says in 1 John 5:7 “For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father (Jehovah), the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.”

These are not a trinity but three separate Personages that are one in ‘unity, harmony, and purpose.’

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

To continue in identifying the Word.

There is one more important title for the Word that is prevalent in the history of Israel and it is ‘the LORD of hosts.’ --- And the following term is used over 35 times in the prophetic book of Jeremiah, “The LORD of hosts, the God of Israel.” --- So ‘the LORD of hosts’ was the voice of God to Israel, through the history and the prophetic books of the OT.

--- And the title was there long before John wrote, in John 1:1 ‘and the Word was God.’

We can follow this through to Isaiah 48 where it identifies the Word again as the ‘God of Israel’ in 48:1 “Hear this, O house of Jacob, who are called by the name of Israel, and have come forth from the wellsprings of Judah; who swear by the name of the Lord, and make mention of the God of Israel, but not in truth or in righteousness;
2 For they call themselves after the holy city, and lean on the God of Israel; the Lord of hosts is His name:

--- He identifies Himself as being involved in the creation in 48:12 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, and Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last.
13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand has stretched out the heavens."

(As it said in John 1:3 "All things were made through Him and without Him nothing was made that was made.")

--- And in 48:16 “Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, I was there. ---And now the Lord God and His Spirit have sent Me.”

17 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel: “I am the Lord your God, who teaches you to profit, who leads you by the way you should go.”

 

--- Now, “The Lord God (Jehovah) and His (Holy) Spirit have sent Me (the LORD of hosts.)”

I will explain next how it was not the Word Himself that came to earth to be the Redeemer, who would teach them and lead them in the way they should go.’ --- Even though it says in John 1:14 “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.” --- It was His representative, Christ, who the Word sent to earth as the Messiah and Redeemer.

--- And this is continued in verses mentioned before in Hebrews 10:5 Therefore, when He (Christ) came into the world, He said: “Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, but a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come — in the volume of the book it is written of Me —to do Your will, O God.’ ”

--- And where is it written in the volume of the book? --- In Isaiah 48:16 – 17.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

One more identification of the Word, --- and it is mentioned this way in your post:

Quote: It is striking that Christ as the Logos is called “God” in verse 1 of the prologue and that the burden of the passage is that this pre-existing divine being has become flesh. The word Theos itself occurs some seven times in the passage.

Response: ---

There is no place in the NT where it says, “Christ is God” nor did Christ ever say He was God. And John 1:1 says plainly that “The Word was God (Theos.) --- And Christ is not the Word, as I will explain in the next section.

To the Jews, the ‘Word’ meant the creative power of God Himself. --- To the Greeks the term ‘Word’ meant ‘Logos,’ --- 'the reason and power for the universe.' The Greeks had the concept that behind it all was the ‘Logos,’ --- the rational mind that ‘ran the whole show.’

The Logos was not another Person, but the ‘intelligentsia’ of God. And when the Word was commissioned as ‘God’ of this new creation, Earth, the Word, was given the ‘intelligentsia’ of God. --- He had the wisdom and knowledge of God. --- He was involved in the creation as it says in John 1:3 "All things were made through Him." And He was the True Light, 1:9 "That was the True Light that gives light (enlightenment) to every man who comes into the world."  

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

Hi al-Muttaqin,

We have identified Jesus as being born of Mary on earth, so He could not have preceded Mary, and He was born in a human body like Mary, --- but was born ‘of the Holy Spirit of God,’ so He was a holy Child, without a sinful nature. --- Luke 1:35, Surah 3:45.

We have spent time identifying Jesus, and more time on the Word, ‘the Lord of hosts’ of the Old Testament. --- Next we can look at Christ, called both the Son of God, and the Son of Man.

--- As is mentioned in your long Post that there was a confusion of names, and the confusing Christian concept is that Jesus, and Christ, were both the Word, who was called God, Theos, --- So they want to identify Jesus as God. --- Like so many times they use some Scripture, but they err in the same way that the writers of the first doctrine in the newly formed Roman Catholic Church erred, in saying that Jesus, the son of God was ‘very God of very God.’ --- But as the Scriptures reveal, the Word and Christ were separate beings from heaven, --- while Jesus was born on earth.

--- The fact that most Christians have not studied the book of Hebrews with understanding, they ‘believe what they have been taught,’ starting from the faulty Catholic doctrine, which was elaborated upon by Christians who, with diagrams and explanations, presented it to the Churches, and we can see the effects of the false concept by the amount of times ‘Trinity’ is used in Church names and institutions.

--- I want to use the powerful words from Surah 4 which give the whole story, because the trinity concept came from meetings in 325, and 381. --- And this was given to Muhammad to have recorded about 625 AD.     

Surah 4:163 We (God) have inspired you (Muhammad), as we inspired Noah and the prophets after him. And we inspired Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, the Patriarchs, Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon. And we gave David the Psalms.

164 Messengers we have told you about, and messengers we never told you about. And GOD spoke to Moses directly.

165 Messengers to deliver good news, as well as warnings. Thus, the people will have no excuse when they face GOD, after all these messengers have come to them. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.

166 But GOD bears witness concerning what He has revealed to you; He has revealed it with His knowledge. And the angels bear witness as well, but GOD suffices as witness.

167 Surely, those who disbelieve and repel from the way of GOD have strayed far astray.

168 Those who disbelieve and transgress, GOD will not forgive them, nor will He guide them in any way;

169 except the way to Hell, wherein they abide forever. This is easy for GOD to do.

170 O people, the messenger has come to you with the truth from your Lord. Therefore, you shall believe for your own good. If you disbelieve, then to GOD belongs everything in the heavens and the earth. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.

171 O people of the scripture, do not transgress the limits of your religion, and do not say about GOD except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was a messenger of GOD, and His word that He had sent to Mary, and a revelation from Him. Therefore, you shall believe in GOD and His messengers. You shall not say, "Trinity." You shall refrain from this for your own good. GOD is only one god. Be He glorified; He is much too glorious to have a son. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. GOD suffices as Lord and Master.

172 The Messiah would never disdain from being a servant of GOD, nor would the closest angels. Those who disdain from worshiping Him, and are too arrogant to submit, He will summon them all before Him.

173 As for those who believe and lead a righteous life, He will fully recompense them, and shower them with His grace. As for those who disdain and turn arrogant, He will commit them to painful retribution. They will find no lord beside GOD, nor a savior.

174 O people, a proof has come to you from your Lord; we have sent down to you a profound beacon.

175 Those who believe in GOD, and hold fast to Him, He will admit them into mercy from Him, and grace, and will guide them to Him in a straight path.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

In beginning to examine who Christ was, we can start from yesterday with Surah 4:

170 O people, the messenger (Muhammad) has come to you with the truth from your Lord. Therefore, you shall believe for your own good. If you disbelieve, then to GOD belongs everything in the heavens and the earth. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.

171 O people of the scripture (Christians), do not transgress the limits of your religion, and do not say about GOD except the truth. --- The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was a messenger of GOD, and His word that He had sent to Mary, and a revelation from Him. --- This says about the same as Surah 3:

45 The angels said, "O Mary, GOD gives you good news: a Word from Him whose name is ’The Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary. He will be prominent in this life and in the Hereafter, and one of those closest to Me.'

--- This refers to Jesus Christ who was the Messenger of the New Covenant, and the message given to Mary by the angel was in Matthew 1:21 “And she (Mary) will bring forth a Son and you will call His name JESUS for He will save His people from their sins.” --- The name Jesus means Savior.

And 4:171 continues, “Therefore, you shall believe in GOD and His messengers (Muhammad and Jesus). You shall not say, "Trinity." You shall refrain from this for your own good. GOD is only one god. Be He glorified; He is much too glorious to have a son. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. GOD suffices as Lord and Master.

172 The Messiah would never disdain from being a servant of GOD, nor would the closest angels. Those who disdain from worshiping Him, and are too arrogant to submit, He will summon them all before Him.

--- The word Messiah means Christ, so we have Jesus the Savior, and Christ the Messiah

173 As for those who believe and lead a righteous life, He will fully recompense them, and shower them with His grace. As for those who disdain and turn arrogant, He will commit them to painful retribution. They will find no lord beside GOD, nor a savior.

--- The message of God’s salvation came through Jesus the Savior, and Jesus is the only one called ‘Savior,’ is He not? --- And Christ is the Messiah, who is destined to be Lord and King. --- So this is God’s plan of salvation for us all, is it not?

174 O people, a proof has come to you from your Lord; we have sent down to you a profound beacon.

175 Those who believe in GOD, and hold fast to Him, He will admit them into mercy from Him, and grace, and will guide them to Him in a straight path.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
On 10/5/2016 at 4:06 AM, Ya_isa (عليه السلام) said:

Again how does that prove anything of what you're trying to say ? Where does he (عليه السلام) say believe in my death to have salvation ?? Where does JESUS (عليه السلام) say that ??? But he says to have eternal life you nist believe in God and follow the commandments. 

You should give credit to Ahmed deed at where u got ur points from 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...