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In the Name of God بسم الله

Proving Jesus (as) was not God

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1 minute ago, tek91 said:

Which one says he did not die but appeared as he died? Yes Christians and Muslims agree that he ascended but Christians believe he ascended after he was resurrected from the dead..

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- Q.4:157

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I mean I don't think I can do any more than all I showed you...it's up to you to believe and make decision now... your soul and relationship with God is on the line I hope you make the wise choice.

Fair enough. But It is nice to have detailed historical evidence on the issue.
 

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The Qur'an said also this: Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise. Q.4:158

All four Gospels record Jesus as saying, "Blessed are the peace-makers; they will be called sons of God." Bible says that God is not man ‘God is not a man’ (Numbers 23:19) ‘For I am God, and

Bible says that Jesus died, but God cannot die The Bible teaches that Jesus died. God cannot die. Romans 1:23 and other verses say that God is immortal. Immortal means, ‘not subject to death.’ This

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2 hours ago, tek91 said:

God doesn't plan that. People have free will.. Judas used his free will to betray Jesus.The Jews of the Old Testament used their free will to kill the prophets and Jesus. 

So God did not know this would happen when he created the world?

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Just now, Dhulfikar said:

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- Q.4:157

I do know you believe this, but personally according to my beliefs I feel something is trying to rob you of having your sins being forgiven. But it's your free will to do as you wish and believe as you wish.

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Fair enough. But It is nice to have detailed historical evidence on the issue

Yeah it's very interesting there's many other writings I haven't posted as well..There's a lot of historical evidence for Jesus and many of the OT prophets.

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9 minutes ago, tek91 said:

I do know you believe this, but personally according to my beliefs I feel something is trying to rob you of having your sins being forgiven.

I admire your passion I feel you genuinely trying to guide to what you think is the truth. I respect that, I wish you would use this passion to turn the jews/Zionist into Christians then the world would be a better place. Loll God Bless 

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Just now, andres said:

So God did not know this would happen when he created the world?

He does know all past present and future, but he allows people to use their free will and make choices and through evil and good choices the World makes, prophecy is fulfilled. It's hard to explain but God allows things to happen for a greater purpose that Glorifies him... God is not the one that makes the evil act but he allows it and he protects us from the evil when we are covered and are obedient to him. The same way he protected the Jews when they would humble and return to him or let them be kept in captivity as slaves to the egyptians and brought plagues like famine and loss in wars when they disobeyed and seeked other gods.

In other words God is not a bully that makes you believe he wants men to come to him not like angels who have no choice but out of their free will.

But do to the choices we make with our free will, depends if he will interfiere in our life.

Just like he interfiered with the jews in Torah when ever they humbled themselves and came back to him and followed his statutes and laws, then God protected them and freed them from their oppressors.

People and Nations and individual situations are all outlined by the actions we take with our free will..But in the End God already knows what's gonna happen from day of creation till the end of the Earth...

 

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Just now, Ya_isa (as) said:

I admire your passion I feel you genuinely trying to guide to what you think is the truth. I respect that, I wish you would use this passion to turn the jews/Zionist into Christians then the world would be a better place. Loll God Bless 

Thank you for your words...

I have to say I have dialogued in Jewish forums in the past.

I feel God gave me a zeal and love for his word. I feel he has led me to this.

all is for his glory..

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1 hour ago, tek91 said:

..But in the End God already knows what's gonna happen from day of creation till the end of the Earth...

But since God created us all, and if he already from the beginning knows the result on judgement day, why does God need to test us? Why at all create the loosers? And how can a human have a free will, if his or her fate already from the start has been decided?

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3 hours ago, Dhulfikar said:

There are three claims on the issue, one which says Jesus died in cross, Second says Jesus did not die in cross but it made appear to people that he died, and third is that Jesus did not die on cross. We know that either he died or not. And both Christians and Islam agree that he was ascended.

For the proof, it needs to be from all side possible. But how someone can prove the Islamic claim about Jesus did not die but it made appear to people that he died? Even if the people says that they witnessed he died, how can they be sure it is the same person?

No one deny the event, it did happen.

Terminology, it all depends which way you want to see things.

Just about everything up until the Quran aparently says otherwise, Jesus died on a cross.

4:157 says Jesus was not killed. If you read the Gospel accounts they also explain Jesus was not killed.

Any Christian who says "they," (especially the Jews) killed Jesus, they should go back read it again.

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Just now, andres said:

But since God created us all, and if he already from the beginning knows the result on judgement day, why does God need to test us? Why at all create the loosers? And how can a human have a free will, if his or her fate already from the start has been decided?

God test us the same way he tested Job, because he wants us to out of our own free will choose to worship him.

Look what happened to Lucifer who believed he could be bigger than God and the angels that followed him.

There's evil and good in the World and I believe God does not interfere with our choices but allows it. God does know how all will end, he even prophecies about it in bible.. I know all is predetermined and I am glad he chose me to be on the winning side...

No matter what the book must continue I don't quite understand what you mean by how can a human have free will if his fate has been decided? I mean yeah God knows our fate because he is Beginning and End, Alpha and Omega.... but we have a free will because in our individual lives we make the decisions to either believe or not to believe that's our choice...God knows what our choice will be but doesn't get involved he wants us to worship him from our spirit and our decision..

God knows all that will happen it doesn't mean he interferes but he knows our future and knows who will come to him and who won't...

That's about as best as I could explain, I'm not saying I have all answers to this as it's a difficult subject.. 

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Just now, Son of Placid said:

Terminology, it all depends which way you want to see things.

Just about everything up until the Quran aparently says otherwise, Jesus died on a cross.

4:157 says Jesus was not killed. If you read the Gospel accounts they also explain Jesus was not killed.

Any Christian who says "they," (especially the Jews) killed Jesus, they should go back read it again.

Where in the gospel does it show Jesus was not killed?

The Jews brought Jesus to Pontius Pilate, who ordered Jesus crucifixion at the hands of the Romans... I'm not saying jews are bad they did instill the crowd to have Jesus killed, but all went according to God's plan.

God used evil for the purpose of good. to bring atonement of sin for us..

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Just now, Dhulfikar said:

For the proof, it needs to be from all side possible. But how someone can prove the Islamic claim about Jesus did not die but it made appear to people that he died? Even if the people says that they witnessed he died, how can they be sure it is the same person?

No one deny the event, it did happen.

I would like to add when you say how can they be sure. I think a disciple that loved him and Mary his own mother would know if it's her son or someone else who died.

They were there by the cross during the crucifixion and his death along with many eye witnesses and the Jews who brought him there, because they kept mocking him and saying to come down if you are the son of God and they will believe..

John 19:25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.

Matthew 27:41 Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said, 42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.

I'm telling you the High Priest and scribes and Elders where there to make sure he died along with the Romans who would be punished fatally if they goofed an execution...

The Romans maybe could be fooled but there's no way someone can fool the High Priest, Chief and Elders and most of all his own mother...

People who knew him and hated him where there and people who knew and loved him were witnesses to his death..

It would make no sense for all of them to be fooled by someone else...

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11 hours ago, tek91 said:

Where in the gospel does it show Jesus was not killed?

The Jews brought Jesus to Pontius Pilate, who ordered Jesus crucifixion at the hands of the Romans... I'm not saying jews are bad they did instill the crowd to have Jesus killed, but all went according to God's plan.

God used evil for the purpose of good. to bring atonement of sin for us..

The Gospels say the Romans crucified Jesus and that he died and resurrected.

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11 hours ago, tek91 said:

God test us the same way he tested Job, because he wants us to out of our own free will choose to worship him..............

.......God knows all that will happen it doesn't mean he interferes but he knows our future and knows who will come to him and who won't...

 

How can you have a free will if God, already before creating you, knew if you would become a winner or a looser? And what is the point of testing? I do not think this is fair. My belief is that God created us all with the possibility to be winners. And that he hopes we all will be. Only a cruel God would create humans he knew would be loosers.

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18 hours ago, Dhulfikar said:

Can you refer them please?

Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

Mark 15:37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Planted between two others who were still very much alive and did not have the capability to yield up their ghost.

It was the time of the passover and there was a rule about leaving people to hang around dying, so the soldiers were sent out in the evening to break the legs of the three on the crosses. When they came they saw Jesus was already dead. They stabbed him to make sure, they saw "blood and water" They didn't bother to break his legs because he was already dead. This fullfills an old prophesy that the son of man would not be broken.

If yeilding up the ghost was a normal thing then some of us might have had times where we would have already made that choice. It is one of those things we cannot do. 

For Jesus, death was imminent, no human way out, but the words recorded that He spoke and how He died are interesting.

He never yelled out "YOU GOT THE WRONG GUY!!!" .

 

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35 minutes ago, iCambrian said:

You didn't answer the question. Do you think God knows there will be losers or not?

this is a different question of if judgement has or has not been passed.

Since billions of humans already have lived their life, I am very certain God knows if there are losers or not. And I would be very surprised if there were not losers. Only God knows thou.

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Just now, Ya_isa (as) said:

Mathew 27/46

About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?").

God turned his back because at that moment Jesus took sin of the World upon himself.

In the same way that God would punish the sin offerings animals and forsake them, instead of forsaking humans for sin..

At that point in time was when the atonement was taking place and the Son was punished, separated and the Wrath of God was upon him so our sins could be atoned for.

that's why soon after his last words were, "It is Finished.", because God's plan to bring a sinless lamb for salvation was completed.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Those are victorious last words.

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1 hour ago, Ya_isa (as) said:

Mathew 27/46

About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?").

Exacly. Jesus was adressing God. 

I know the Quran say "they did not kill (or was it "crucify"?) him, it only appeared so". A rather vague statement. But the proposed scenery that "they got the wrong guy" is not very credible. More credible, would be the interpretation: the jews did not crucify him. This would even be true, because the Jews did not kill him. The Romans did. 

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Just now, andres said:

Exacly. Jesus was adressing God. 

I know the Quran say "they did not kill (or was it "crucify"?) him, it only appeared so". A rather vague statement. But the proposed scenery that "they got the wrong guy" is not very credible. More credible, would be the interpretation: the jews did not crucify him. This would even be true, because the Jews did not kill him. The Romans did. 

Romans physically did the act of killing Jesus, but all was instigated by the Jews who accused him of blasphemy and were also jealous of him, because of his fame...

Saying the Jews had nothing to do would be like saying Hitler had nothing to do with the Holocaust, because he did not do the physical work of bringing them there..

I am not saying this to make Jews look demonic or anything. I am saying this because regardless of who was at fault it was all God's will and like a show or play, he put everything in place so that his masterpiece would happen.

In other words they thought they were in control, meanwhile the Father was in the back in control putting all the pieces at play, using the evils of men for the purpose of good to bring him Glory.

God's will of atonement for our sins was done and accomplished...

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1 hour ago, andres said:

Exacly. Jesus was adressing God. 

I know the Quran say "they did not kill (or was it "crucify"?) him, it only appeared so". A rather vague statement. But the proposed scenery that "they got the wrong guy" is not very credible. More credible, would be the interpretation: the jews did not crucify him. This would even be true, because the Jews did not kill him. The Romans did. 

Erm...

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Matthew 27

24 When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that instead an uproar was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd. “I am innocent of this man’s blood,” he said. “It is your responsibility!”

25 All the people answered, “His blood is on us and on our children!”

26 Then he released Barabbas to them. But he had Jesus flogged, and handed him over to be crucified.

 


 

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1 Thessalonians 2

14 For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews 15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone 

 

 

More fabrications?

 

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1 hour ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Erm...


 

 

More fabrications?

 

What the Quran means with "appeared so" opens up for fabrications, but I see no reason fabricating one more. The Bible is clear. Jesus was crucified. In my opinion, by far the most credible story.

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1 minute ago, andres said:

What the Quran means with "appeared so" opens up for fabrications, but I see no reason fabricating one more. The Bible is clear. Jesus was crucified. In my opinion, by far the most credible story.

The Bible also seems clear that the Jews were held responsible for the crucifixion of Jesus, but for some reason you don't seem to accept that.

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26 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

The Bible also seems clear that the Jews were held responsible for the crucifixion of Jesus, but for some reason you don't seem to accept that.

The Gospels blaim the Jews for wanting Jesus dead. The Gospels also say Pilatus was in charge and responsible for the execution that was carried out by Roman soldiers.

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