Help!!!!! Losing Mind Need Quran /Tafsir Experts

[wmehar2]

Salaam'Alaikum and a very sincere special thank you to those who read and offer their opinion/effort insight.

 

This is gonna sound nuts and all I care about is truth and honest opinions and research here because I myself do not know.   While on the forums here fact checking a Hadith from Sahih, I chanced upon these Sunni / Hadith Collections:

Volume 9, Book 89, Number 301:

Narrated Zaid bin Thabit:

Abu Bakr sent for me owing to the large number of casualties in the battle of Al-Yamama, while 'Umar was sitting with him. Abu Bakr said (to me), 'Umar has come to my and said, 'A great number of Qaris of the Holy Quran were killed on the day of the battle of Al-Yamama, and I am afraid that the casualties among the Qaris of the Quran may increase on other battle-fields whereby a large part of the Quran may be lost. Therefore I consider it advisable that you (Abu Bakr) should have the Qur'an collected.' I said, 'How dare I do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?' 'Umar said, By Allah, it is something beneficial.' 'Umar kept on pressing me for that till Allah opened my chest for that for which He had opened the chest of 'Umar and I had in that matter, the same opinion as 'Umar had." Abu Bakr then said to me (Zaid), "You are a wise young man and we do not have any suspicion about you, and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle. So you should search for the fragmentary scripts of the Quran and collect it (in one Book)." Zaid further said: By Allah, if Abu Bakr had ordered me to shift a mountain among the mountains from one place to another it would not have been heavier for me than this ordering me to collect the Qur'an. Then I said (to 'Umar and Abu Bakr), "How can you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" Abu Bakr said, "By Allah, it is something beneficial." Zaid added: So he (Abu Bakr) kept on pressing me for that until Allah opened my chest for that for which He had opened the chests of Abu Bakr and 'Umar, and I had in that matter, the same opinion as theirs.

So I started compiling the Quran by collecting it from the leafless stalks of the date-palm tree and from the pieces of leather and hides and from the stones, and from the chests of men (who had memorized the Quran). I found the last verses of Sirat-at-Tauba: ("Verily there has come unto you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves--' (9.128-129) ) from Khuzaima or Abi Khuzaima and I added to it the rest of the Sura. The manuscripts of the Quran remained with Abu Bakr till Allah took him unto Him. Then it remained with 'Umar till Allah took him unto Him, and then with Hafsa bint 'Umar.

 

Volume 6, Book 61, Number 509:

Narrated Zaid bin Thabit:

Abu Bakr As-Siddiq sent for me when the people! of Yamama had been killed (i.e., a number of the Prophet's Companions who fought against Musailama). (I went to him) and found 'Umar bin Al-Khattab sitting with him. Abu Bakr then said (to me), "Umar has come to me and said: "Casualties were heavy among the Qurra' of the! Qur'an (i.e. those who knew the Quran by heart) on the day of the Battle of Yalmama, and I am afraid that more heavy casualties may take place among the Qurra' on other battlefields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost. Therefore I suggest, you (Abu Bakr) order that the Qur'an be collected." I said to 'Umar, "How can you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" 'Umar said, "By Allah, that is a good project. "Umar kept on urging me to accept his proposal till Allah opened my chest for it and I began to realize the good in the idea which 'Umar had realized." Then Abu Bakr said (to me). 'You are a wise young man and we do not have any suspicion about you, and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle. So you should search for (the fragmentary scripts of) the Qur'an and collect it in one book)." By Allah If they had ordered me to shift one of the mountains, it would not have been heavier for me than this ordering me to collect the Qur'an. Then I said to Abu Bakr, "How will you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" Abu Bakr replied, "By Allah, it is a good project." Abu Bakr kept on urging me to accept his idea until Allah opened my chest for what He had opened the chests of Abu Bakr and 'Umar. So I started looking for the Qur'an and collecting it from (what was written on) palmed stalks, thin white stones and also from the men who knew it by heart, till I found the last Verse of Surat At-Tauba (Repentance) with Abi Khuzaima Al-Ansari, and I did not find it with anybody other than him. The Verse is:

'Verily there has come unto you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty..(till the end of Surat-Baraa' (At-Tauba) (9.128-129) Then the complete manuscripts (copy) of the Qur'an remained with Abu Bakr till he died, then with 'Umar till the end of his life, and then with Hafsa, the daughter of 'Umar.

 

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Then I vaguely remember reading something in the past that I vaguely remember dismissing as garbage/made up attention seeking stuff that resembles this stuff.  Are any of you familiar or aware of the submitters or Rashad Khalifa?  The guy who went bananas saying he was some prophet and sounded/appeared delusional, but made excellent observations about the Quranic link with the number 19 that appeared to be align????

I read and found out today that the same guy, said the only two verses in the Qu'ran that didn't match up with the flow 19 by process of computational elimination/algorithmic, were Verses 9.128-129.. the VERY same ones referenced in the above Sahih Hadith's.  AM I CRAZY?  Is this a set up?  IS there anyway to verify this stuff?   The same surah of the Quran is also the very one that we all know doesn't begin with Bismillah ... hence for some reason it doesn't begin in the name of God,  .. IS THAT NUTS or am I crazy???!?  Is that too  much of a coincidence???

A link summarizing the details thing: http://www.quranalone.com/the-quran/appendices/appendix-24.php

Here's one site: http://www.19miracle.org/two-false-verses-removed-from-the-quran/

and the same thing : http://masjidtucson.org/quran/appendices/appendix24.html

A site praising him (while condemning his personal claims) for his translation accuracy: http://www.answering-christianity.com/why_do_i_use_rk.htm

 

Normally I'm not one to dismiss everything that a man says and try to hear them out, as there can always be a truth hidden somewhere.  But this Rashad Khalifa guy claimed some crazy stuff, such that he was a prophet/messenger (until he was stabbed at a mosque randomly).... so I kinda just shrugged and kept his profile/details in the back of my mind until I came across these Hadith.  Please someone tell me if I'm drawing too much meaning to this and this is a coincidence.  Just earlier someone in the forums mentioned this Surah was one of the ones where it seems meccan/medinan verses were also mixed up. @goldenhawk

I'm a firm believer of Verse 15:9, and perhaps combining this hadith, and this man's mathematical analysis to single out those same two verses referenced in those surahs are proof of that 15:9 .  The verse promising us the Quran is perfectly maintained. 

The crazy thing is, those two verses, seem completely (God forgive me if I'm wrong) redundant and... forgive me for saying this - not taking away any significant  (not that i can recognize right away from my limited wisdom of the Quran) in terms of meaning or change if they were removed... sort of like Placebo verses.

 

I know I bother you guys alot, but I respect your knowledge and backgrounds to hear your opinions: @shiaman14 @Haimi @Gaius I. Caesar @IbnSina

I for sure don't believe this quack guy was claiming to be a prophet as that contradicts the Quran itself that hes trying to "fix".....  I think he was onto something and it led him to a dangerous road becoming fixated on it ultimately leading to his demise.  He probably tried to find justification for his name or something and whatever, but other than that.. he's produced something appearing to be incredible.

[Don'tMakeAس]

What are you trying to say? That the last verses of Surah Tawba may not be part of the Qur'an because they disrupt some mathematical pattern?

The Rashad Khalifa links you provided reference the aforementioned hadith in detail, so it's not like Khalifa did his work in complete ignorance of these ahadith and magically realized that they agreed with his findings later. Is it not possible that he could have interlinked these sayings from the start in his attempt to make a convincing argument? And is there actually any proof that these verses distort some algorithmic pattern throughout the Qur'an, or is it just Khalifa us telling us so?

Maybe someone who actually understands this algorithm Khalifa claims to have discovered can guide you better, but personally, I'm not about to believe that there's a far-reaching pattern involving the number 19 in the Qur'an just because some lunatic wannabe prophet tells me so. The random multiples of 19 interjected into the articles you've referenced have done very little to convince me otherwise. I just see someone clutching at straws.

[wmehar2]

3 minutes ago, Shaykh Patience101 said:

What are you trying to say? That the last verses of Surah Tawba may not be part of the Qur'an because they disrupt some mathematical pattern?

The Rashad Khalifa links you provided reference the aforementioned hadith in detail, so it's not like Khalifa did his work in complete ignorance of these ahadith and magically realized that they agreed with his findings later. Is it not possible that he could have interlinked these sayings from the start in his attempt to make a convincing argument? And is there actually any proof that these verses distort some algorithmic pattern throughout the Qur'an, or is it just Khalifa us telling us so?

Maybe someone who actually understands this algorithm Khalifa claims to have discovered can guide you better, but personally, I'm not about to believe that there's a far-reaching pattern involving the number 19 in the Qur'an just because some lunatic wannabe prophet tells me so. The random multiples of 19 interjected into the articles you've referenced have done very little to convince me otherwise. I just see someone clutching at straws.

I'm kind of a math guy and could probably verify it if I work hard at it to see if its just made up or not.  

But if it turns out to support what he's saying, I don't now how on earth I'd be able to convince anyone anyway... I'd probably get stabbed or something.

It appears to me at first he was clutching at straws as well, however if given ample time I could cross reference and verify his sources/geometric foundation and try to replicate/recreate his work.  Albeit much faster using 2016 technology and my experience in data analysis/mathematics and text mining...

I have the same suspicion that he may have used this Hadith as a reason to go on a holy grail quest to find some farfetched quacked out experiment.  However I fear I don't bear the same Quranic knowledge/qualification to know what I'd be looking for.  The guy saw Bismillah Ar rahman Ar Raheem as 19 letters, and then looked at surah 70:34...... And perhaps the spiral started there. 

I will admit, there are some coincidences that are too complex to be just mere coincidence, but I think this guy became deluded and took it WAY too far.

To make it as unbiased as possible, I don't want to start quite where he started out of fear he took those straws and created paths for himself to find the number 19.   I would of course do that in the end after however If I could conjure up an arbitrary number such as 7, 12, 21, 38, (you get the picture)... and see If I can divine up some garbage rhetoric to say the pattern is with those numbers instead.

In the end I can just say 1 is a multiple of everything and there's only 1 God XD, and call it a day.

 

[Gaius I. Caesar]

@wmehar2 Be careful, bro. I was never a follower of Rashad Khalifa but I met people who were and the thing that struck me the most was that his followers tried to essentially create an language around Code 19. It's one thing to believe in Code 19, quite another to believe Rashad Khalifa was a prophet and build a language around Code 19. 

I hate to be a negative Nancy, but I think it is a huge waste of time to validate Code 19, sure you will see a pattern but in order for it to fit according to Khalifa's hypothesis, you will have to, astaghfirillah, remove the two ayahs which is blasphemy to both Sunnis and Shias. 

I was also left with the impression that this was a man clutching at straws as well.

[wmehar2]

Just ... kinda trying to implement logic here,

The Hadith in of itself, doesn't prove anything.  I don't know if Sunni or Shia' can assert its strength/authenticity and I won't go number crunching for something that's considered a weak hadith.  So best if I can determine its authenticity.  Granted its illogical to use results from a number crunch to say that this Hadith is authentic.

By that token if Shia' and Sunni's agree that subtracting these Verses is Blasphemy, and that this Hadith is authenticated, then Umar and Abu Bakr may have made an ultimate saving move here that enabled us to have the Full Quran with those two verses, making Abi Khuzaima al Ansari, a very special/important significant man to have his word against everyone else's confirming those two verses.  That's not something to scoff/dismiss.  This insinuates that Umar's Idea along with Abu Bakr's agreement were CRITICALLY invaluable moves/contributions to Islam.

Though in the Hadith, twice it was mentioned to Umar and Abu Bakr, " 'How dare I do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?".... Suppose the actions of Umar and Abu Bakr actually lead to the accidental addendum of these two verses (by mistake on Abi Khuzaima), and this 19 code or whatever is some latent great tactic of God to unveil a great misdeed of Umar/Abu Bakr in not following the prophet's example and how a seemingly GREAT intention, domino'ed /rippled into a great corruption (albeit neglible/tiny in terms of quanity and meaning)??

Or is this Hadith one of fabrication to give credit to Abu Bakr/Umar for preserving the Qu'ran when there was perfectly nothing wrong with the current methodologies of preservation, in order to elevate their social status/trust?  And that the inclusion of those verses were never a contention and they somehow paid off/threatened the narrator/collector to do as they said for that same ulterior motive/plan?

As muslims we should strive for truth, no?  Or am I going to far in my interpretation and attempt to rationalize? And this Hadith is merely serving as a pandemonium/chaos in shaytaan's hand to swerve/distort my faith?

Edited October 4, 2016 by wmehar2

[Khadim uz Zahra]

While trying to understand the Qur'an is always a good thing and, yes, there are probably many mysteries in it waiting to be uncovered - including, possibly, mathematical patterns - one should always remember that that we have many aHadith that explicitly state that one shouldn't draw too many mathematical inferences from the Qur'an or place too much weight to such theories. There have been many people who have used some sort of convoluted mathematical proof to derive their own versions of truths or prophecies from the Qur'an and they have all ultimately failed. I remember a brother from a few years ago who used various mathematical techniques and software that he created to suggest the Qur'an was somehow pivoted on prime numbers and, using those, argued that a catastrophic event was supposed to happen 4-5 years ago. Yet, nothing happened.

To add to that, claiming that any verse of the Qur'an is redundant is bordering on heresy, if not already past that threshold. You have no authority to decide what is, and is not, important in the Qur'an. For example, the Qur'an asks us to establish prayer and give alms multiple times. If we removed one such instance, it probably won't take away from the message but there's a reason that God placed those words that many times and questioning the wisdom of God is, again, bordering on heresy.

Lastly, there is literally no coherence to any of the arguments you have presented. There is a Hadith - from the Sunnis, by the way, which we have no reason to abide by - which talks about how a verse was collected and the fact that the chapter containing those verses doesn't start with Bismillah. So what? How are the two related at all? If you didn't have this man claiming they are not part of the Qur'an, if we for one second assume that he didn't exist, how on earth are those two facts related?

[Aladin from Azra tribe]

3 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

Then I vaguely remember reading something in the past that I vaguely remember dismissing as garbage/made up attention seeking stuff that resembles this stuff.  Are any of you familiar or aware of the submitters or Rashad Khalifa?  The guy who went bananas saying he was some prophet and sounded/appeared delusional, but made excellent observations about the Quranic link with the number 19 that appeared to be align????

I read and found out today that the same guy, said the only two verses in the Qu'ran that didn't match up with the flow 19 by process of computational elimination/algorithmic, were Verses 9.128-129.. the VERY same ones referenced in the above Sahih Hadith's.  AM I CRAZY?  Is this a set up?  IS there anyway to verify this stuff?   The same surah of the Quran is also the very one that we all know doesn't begin with Bismillah ... hence for some reason it doesn't begin in the name of God,  .. IS THAT NUTS or am I crazy???!?  Is that too  much of a coincidence???

My dear brother, I used to be very good in maths and many other sciencies and I was fascinated with Rashad Khalifa's claims about "19" until I heard that he claimed to be a prophet. This is why I rejected all where I could recognize "his signature". Anyways, I was open later for any opinion, I was even listening what "salafis" have to say.

I've found a youtube channel with some interesting observations, but I've found that most of them are not real or I didn't see a proof for them. I understood that this person was a "19-er" but I kept watching his videos. Until, suddenly, he made a video against Rashad Khalifa and "19-ers", which he called "19 Code Disasters" and you can watch it here:

His old videos are still there, even I see he doesn't think what he thought before, so you can find many wrong theories from Rashad Khalifa and other 19-ers.

In this video you'll see about last two ayats from 9th surah and maths behind it. If you want you can see many of beliefs of 19-ers in his other videos, which I think he doesn't follow anymore.

Anyways, if we read Buhari/Muslim and many (maybe all) others we'll see that most of these narrations are from suspicious people and/or they differ from the Qur'an a lot.

We should also know that many of Qaris were hafizoon and there were always a lot of Qaris. There's one more big lie in these narrations, and it's that the Qur'an was not written (collected) during the life of Muhammad Mustafa sawa. I don't know how any shi'a can believe in that if they know that h. 'Ali a.s. was one of its "writers" and he had his personal "book" with Qur'an written.

Whenever you see the signature of dhalimoon in narration it's better to avoid reading it, because sihr is when the truth is mixed with lies and to read/hear something from dhalimoon is to read/hear a sihr, probably.

Allah's bless and salam.

[ShiaMan14]

Salaam brother @wmehar2,

I had lots of fun with 19 in this post:

As a matter of fact, that entire thread is from a believer of Code 19. It took brothers @S.M.H.A., @skamran110, @Dhulfikar, @Gaius I. Caesar and me (some others too) to run this guy of after proving he believed in the Code of 19 and Rashid Khalifa. The only thing we need to discredit the theory and person is that he claimed to be a Prophet when all Muslims believe Muhammad (saw) was khatem-un-nabieen.

The reason for Surah Tawba not having bismillah is simple. That is one of the sternest Surah and it starts off with an admonishment to the idolators. We get glimpses of Allah's wrath and anger. As such, how can you begin with Merciful and Beneficent while at the same time also be admonishing and threatening.

9.128-129  fits well into the Surah because it lets the Idolators know that Muhammad is sent as a mercy to the believers and they should turn to Allah.

Hope this helps.

[wmehar2]

9 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Salaam brother @wmehar2,

I had lots of fun with 19 in this post:

As a matter of fact, that entire thread is from a believer of Code 19. It took brothers @S.M.H.A., @skamran110, @Dhulfikar, @Gaius I. Caesar and me (some others too) to run this guy of after proving he believed in the Code of 19 and Rashid Khalifa. The only thing we need to discredit the theory and person is that he claimed to be a Prophet when all Muslims believe Muhammad (saw) was khatem-un-nabieen.

The reason for Surah Tawba not having bismillah is simple. That is one of the sternest Surah and it starts off with an admonishment to the idolators. We get glimpses of Allah's wrath and anger. As such, how can you begin with Merciful and Beneficent while at the same time also be admonishing and threatening.

9.128-129  fits well into the Surah because it lets the Idolators know that Muhammad is sent as a mercy to the believers and they should turn to Allah.

Hope this helps.

I'm super glad you responded, thanks for your insightful post bro.  Jzk Allah khairun.

My skepticism has skyrocketed

[ShiaMan14]

1 minute ago, wmehar2 said:

I'm super glad you responded, thanks for your insightful post bro.  Jzk Allah khairun.

My skepticism has skyrocketed

Their kalima does have Muhammad Rasool Allah in it. That guy was actually trying to convince us that the Prophet only relayed the Quran as he received it and that was not supposed to teach us about Islam. 

That was one weird dude.

[wmehar2]

5 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

Their kalima does have Muhammad Rasool Allah in it. That guy was actually trying to convince us that the Prophet only relayed the Quran as he received it and that was not supposed to teach us about Islam. 

That was one weird dude.

Yea, how can some guy relaying it as he's getting it gain the trust of those many upon many followers. 

"I don't know guys, this is what I got... go with it" *shrug*......

Flawed logic.

[ShiaMan14]

Correction:

14 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Their kalima does have NOT Muhammad Rasool Allah in it. That guy was actually trying to convince us that the Prophet only relayed the Quran as he received it and that was not supposed to teach us about Islam. 

That was one weird dude.