Strongest proof of god

[Qasim_Husayn]

1. Reality consists of some things whose existence at any given time depends upon (or is contingent upon) other things. For example, the existence of a cat is dependent, at all times, upon the existence of its cells and the arrangement (form) of its cells. The existence of its cells similarly depend upon molecules and their molecular structure. The existence of the molecules likewise depend upon atoms and the structure of the atoms, and so on. Each of these cases – the cat, the cells, the molecules, etc. are examples of conditioned realities  –  whose existence is dependent on other things or conditions. [Everything up to this point has been confirmed by empirical investigation].

2. Reality as a whole either contains a) conditioned realities only, or b) conditioned realities and at least one Unconditioned Reality (i.e. a reality whose existence depends on nothing else). Option a) is false because it entails the non-existence of all realities in reality – since conditioned realities lack the power to exist in and of themselves and must be grounded in existence by other things. (Read the full argument below for the exact details – including the infinite regress possibility). Therefore, Option b) is the necessary conclusion – there at least one unconditioned reality in all of reality.

3. An Unconditioned Reality, being uncaused and independent in its existence, has no parts and is absolutely simple by virtue of being uncaused and not dependent upon any combination of parts or properties. It then follows that there is only one Unconditioned Reality. This is because the existence of more than one Unconditioned Reality would necessitate that each Unconditioned Reality be composed of one common property and one differential property (to distinguish it from the rest) – but this would entail each of them being composed and therefore not actually Unconditioned Reality. Therefore, there is only one Unconditioned Reality.

4. It follows that all other realities in existence are conditioned realities whose existence depends on the Unconditioned Reality at all times. Therefore, Unconditioned Reality is the continuous Creator and Sustainer of all realities in existence. Unconditioned Reality, due to its simplicity, transcends space, time, and matter. Unconditioned Reality is also changeless and unlimited due to transcending time, space, and duality of any kind.

5. Finally, Unconditioned Reality – as the Creator and Sustainer of all realities – is the source or ground for all of the powers or qualities found in conditioned realities – such as existence, power, life, will, knowledge, beauty, compassion etc. This Unconditioned Reality – the Creator and Sustainer of all existing things at all times – is what we call “God” or “He who is above all else”. 


So I was wondering, that when talking about conditional realites. I always realized that it would be conditional on things that compose it. (E.g cells compose us). But what about things which aren't composed of anything furthure. For instance, energy is not composed of anything, energy is everything that exists. What is energy conditional upon. Also energy cannot be created or destroyed. So it could easily replace the eternal unconditonal reality that is constantly sustaining the comos
 

https://ismailignosis.com/2014/03/27/he-who-is-above-all-else-the-strongest-argument-for-the-existence-of-god/

Edited October 4, 2016 by Qasim_Husayn

[myouvial]

40 minutes ago, Qasim_Husayn said:

1. Reality consists of some things whose existence at any given time depends upon (or is contingent upon) other things. For example, the existence of a cat is dependent, at all times, upon the existence of its cells and the arrangement (form) of its cells. The existence of its cells similarly depend upon molecules and their molecular structure. The existence of the molecules likewise depend upon atoms and the structure of the atoms, and so on. Each of these cases – the cat, the cells, the molecules, etc. are examples of conditioned realities  –  whose existence is dependent on other things or conditions. [Everything up to this point has been confirmed by empirical investigation].

2. Reality as a whole either contains a) conditioned realities only, or b) conditioned realities and at least one Unconditioned Reality (i.e. a reality whose existence depends on nothing else). Option a) is false because it entails the non-existence of all realities in reality – since conditioned realities lack the power to exist in and of themselves and must be grounded in existence by other things. (Read the full argument below for the exact details – including the infinite regress possibility). Therefore, Option b) is the necessary conclusion – there at least one unconditioned reality in all of reality.

3. An Unconditioned Reality, being uncaused and independent in its existence, has no parts and is absolutely simple by virtue of being uncaused and not dependent upon any combination of parts or properties. It then follows that there is only one Unconditioned Reality. This is because the existence of more than one Unconditioned Reality would necessitate that each Unconditioned Reality be composed of one common property and one differential property (to distinguish it from the rest) – but this would entail each of them being composed and therefore not actually Unconditioned Reality. Therefore, there is only one Unconditioned Reality.

4. It follows that all other realities in existence are conditioned realities whose existence depends on the Unconditioned Reality at all times. Therefore, Unconditioned Reality is the continuous Creator and Sustainer of all realities in existence. Unconditioned Reality, due to its simplicity, transcends space, time, and matter. Unconditioned Reality is also changeless and unlimited due to transcending time, space, and duality of any kind.

5. Finally, Unconditioned Reality – as the Creator and Sustainer of all realities – is the source or ground for all of the powers or qualities found in conditioned realities – such as existence, power, life, will, knowledge, beauty, compassion etc. This Unconditioned Reality – the Creator and Sustainer of all existing things at all times – is what we call “God” or “He who is above all else”. 


So I was wondering, that when talking about conditional realites. I always realized that it would be conditional on things that compose it. (E.g cells compose us). But what about things which aren't composed of anything furthure. For instance, energy is not composed of anything, energy is everything that exists. What is energy conditional upon. Also energy cannot be created or destroyed. So it could easily replace the eternal unconditonal reality that is constantly sustaining the comos
 

https://ismailignosis.com/2014/03/27/he-who-is-above-all-else-the-strongest-argument-for-the-existence-of-god/

You are right. That is good  analysis using the possibility about existence.

About energy :

1. Energy is not material so it is not composed of any material.

2. Energy is a relative term defined by human based on certain references. If we do not take any reference then there is no energy. For example of the reference is temperature of ice melting or boiling water. So it is conditional realities upon references (defined by human).

That is my spontaneous view. If there is mistake please correct me.

[Quisant]

10 hours ago, myouvial said:

About energy :

1. Energy is not material so it is not composed of any material.

2. Energy is a relative term defined by human based on certain references. If we do not take any reference then there is no energy. For example of the reference is temperature of ice melting or boiling water. So it is conditional realities upon references (defined by human).

That is my spontaneous view. If there is mistake please correct me.

What is energy?

Energy is the capacity of a physical system to do work. The common symbol for energy is the uppercase letter E. The standard unit is the joule, symbolised by J. One joule (1 J) is the energy resulting from the equivalent of one newton (1 N) of force acting over one meter (1 m) of displacement. There are two main forms of energy, called potential energy and kinetic energy.

Potential energy, sometimes symbolised U, is energy stored in a system. A stationary object in a gravitational field, or a stationary charged particle in an electric field, has potential energy.

Kinetic energy is observable as motion of an object, particle, or set of particles. Examples include the falling of an object in a gravitational field, the motion of a charged particle in an electric field, and the rapid motion of atoms or molecules when an object is at a temperature above zero Kelvin.

Matter is equivalent to energy in the sense that the two are related by the Einstein equation:

E = mc2

where E is the energy in joules, m is the mass in kilograms, and c is the speed of light, equal to approximately 2.99792 x 108 meters per second.

From here:

http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/energy

wslm.

*

 

[myouvial]

Just now, Quisant said:

What is energy?

Energy is the capacity of a physical system to do work. The common symbol for energy is the uppercase letter E. The standard unit is the joule, symbolised by J. One joule (1 J) is the energy resulting from the equivalent of one newton (1 N) of force acting over one meter (1 m) of displacement. There are two main forms of energy, called potential energy and kinetic energy.

Potential energy, sometimes symbolised U, is energy stored in a system. A stationary object in a gravitational field, or a stationary charged particle in an electric field, has potential energy.

Kinetic energy is observable as motion of an object, particle, or set of particles. Examples include the falling of an object in a gravitational field, the motion of a charged particle in an electric field, and the rapid motion of atoms or molecules when an object is at a temperature above zero Kelvin.

Matter is equivalent to energy in the sense that the two are related by the Einstein equation:

E = mc2

where E is the energy in joules, m is the mass in kilograms, and c is the speed of light, equal to approximately 2.99792 x 108 meters per second.

From here:

http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/energy

wslm.

*

 

Matter is equivalent to energy in the sense that the two related by kinetic energy i.e.

E=1/2mv2

Edited October 5, 2016 by myouvial
no reason

[freekundli]

On 4/10/2016 at 7:58 AM, Qasim_Husayn said:

1. Reality consists of some things whose existence at any given time depends upon (or is contingent upon) other things. For example, the existence of a cat is dependent, at all times, upon the existence of its cells and the arrangement (form) of its cells. The existence of its cells similarly depend upon molecules and their molecular structure. The existence of the molecules likewise depend upon atoms and the structure of the atoms, and so on. Each of these cases – the cat, the cells, the molecules, etc. are examples of conditioned realities  –  whose existence is dependent on other things or conditions. [Everything up to this point has been confirmed by empirical investigation].

2. Reality as a whole either contains a) conditioned realities only, or b) conditioned realities and at least one Unconditioned Reality (i.e. a reality whose existence depends on nothing else). Option a) is false because it entails the non-existence of all realities in reality – since conditioned realities lack the power to exist in and of themselves and must be grounded in existence by other things. (Read the full argument below for the exact details – including the infinite regress possibility). Therefore, Option b) is the necessary conclusion – there at least one unconditioned reality in all of reality.

3. An Unconditioned Reality, being uncaused and independent in its existence, has no parts and is absolutely simple by virtue of being uncaused and not dependent upon any combination of parts or properties. It then follows that there is only one Unconditioned Reality. This is because the existence of more than one Unconditioned Reality would necessitate that each Unconditioned Reality be composed of one common property and one differential property (to distinguish it from the rest) – but this would entail each of them being composed and therefore not actually Unconditioned Reality. Therefore, there is only one Unconditioned Reality.

4. It follows that all other realities in existence are conditioned realities whose existence depends on the Unconditioned Reality at all times. Therefore, Unconditioned Reality is the continuous Creator and Sustainer of all realities in existence. Unconditioned Reality, due to its simplicity, transcends space, time, and matter. Unconditioned Reality is also changeless and unlimited due to transcending time, space, and duality of any kind.

5. Finally, Unconditioned Reality – as the Creator and Sustainer of all realities – is the source or ground for all of the powers or qualities found in conditioned realities – such as existence, power, life, will, knowledge, beauty, compassion etc. This Unconditioned Reality – the Creator and Sustainer of all existing things at all times – is what we call “God” or “He who is above all else”. 


So I was wondering, that when talking about conditional realites. I always realized that it would be conditional on things that compose it. (E.g cells compose us). But what about things which aren't composed of anything furthure. For instance, energy is not composed of anything, energy is everything that exists. What is energy conditional upon. Also energy cannot be created or destroyed. So it could easily replace the eternal unconditonal reality that is constantly sustaining the comos
 

https://ismailignosis.com/2014/03/27/he-who-is-above-all-else-the-strongest-argument-for-the-existence-of-god/

Good analysis.

[Totoro]

Salam

I noticed one point about "Unconditional Reality" (what a lovely term by the way)

The point is, if it is not conditional, then it should always be real...or say, True. So, you can't limit it to anything...not bound to time or place...it can't change because it is meaningless for it to change! For change comes from going from one state of reality to another...but as we said, Unconditional reality is not bound to any condition, so how it goes from one situation or condition to another?

Unconditional Reality is "The Reality Itself" or rather say "The Existence Itself" or say "The Life Itself"... conditional realities are conditional, which means they are not always REAL...they are real just in some conditions and not others...so...for example they are here in earth and not moon..they were 1000 thousands years ago and not now...they are in upper levels of existence on not bellow or vice versa...

You can not even imagine or understand "Unconditional Reality" since we put conditions on things to understand them...at least, we bring them to our own conditions to understand them...A bottle never contains the ocean, since the bottle is only bottle according to its limits...other than that, it is just water which is the same thing in the ocean.

So, is engery limitless? is it free of Time,Place,Level and so on? Doesn't it change? if it changes, then it is conditional...

(I hope I made enough sense here... ^____^ )

[iCambrian]

aside from the scientific discussion going on here and the difficulties in proving something purely through a logical deduction, this is still quite a stretch.  Even if hypothetically you took energy out of the discussion, there is really no limit on other possibilities for what could serve as an unconditional reality besides God.

There is a phrase for this, its called God of the gaps. And this goes even further than the debatable premises.

[Renaissance_Man]

Good summary but it's basically the argument from contingency that Ibn Sina and other scholars have already articulated.  They've just used different terminology.  Unconditioned reality = necessary existence, conditional reality = contingent.  

You could boil this whole analysis down to what is composite and/or change is contingent and depends on another for its existence. This characterizes the material world we live in.  It therefore cannot exist of its own accord and its existence is due to another being whose existence is necessary.

 

 

[yarahmadian]

Hello all dear seekers of the truth. 

The easiest and the best way to understand and know God is the argument of fitrah (or the way of the heart) whereby a person refers to his own God-gifted nature and to his inward where he sees God without any rational argument or any experimental observation. There is always a luminous spot in man's heart which enables him to communicate with the metaphysical world. It is also the closest way to God.[1]

5. Although knowing God, the tendency towards Him and the light of monotheism are ingrained in the nature of all human beings, the superstitious norms, customs, wrong educations, false inculcations, negligence, pride and a lot of other factors especially when one is healthy and enjoys all kinds of bounties, obstruct and overpower the God-gifted nature. But when he is surrounded by misery and hardship and when he despairs of worldly means and feels that he has no access to anything, it is only then that the curtains go away and that luminous spot becomes visible. It is only then that he drops all kinds of polytheistic thoughts and becomes purified in this oven of difficulties and mishaps[2] turning to the metaphysical world. Man's turning to God during times of calamities is a sign of our inclinations to Godliness. Man gets involved with his position and status so much that he forgets about God. He gets fully entangled in his sins and disobedience. Once calamity befalls upon man, he suddenly remembers God and turns to Him for help. Thus, we realize that this sense of Godliness is intrinsic in humans, but man's involvement in worldly affairs results in his forgetting God.

That is why, there are different Quranic verses that remind mankind about the bounty of God-seeking nature.[3]

The great leaders of Islam also guided in the same way those who went contemplating with hesitation about God. For example read the following piece of history:

A man went to see Imam Ja’far ibn Muhammad al-Sadiq (as) and expressed his amazement about knowing God.

The man said: "I have discussed this issue with many knowledgeable people, but they have not been able to help me." Imam Ja’far Sadiq (a.s) ended his amazement using his intrinsic human Godliness and asked him:

"Have you ever been aboard a ship?"

The man said: "Yes."

Then Imam Jafar Sadiq (a.s) asked: "Have you ever been on a sinking ship, and reached out for a narrow piece of board to stay afloat?"

The man said: "Yes. I have."

Then Imam Jafar Sadiq (a.s) said: "Then while you could not see any dry land or anyone there to save you, were you not really attracted to some power to rescue you?"

The man replied: "Yes."

Imam Sadiq (a.s) said: He is God Who has the power to save. There is no one else to save or to come a person's help."

The conclusion we can draw is that Godliness is intrinsic and that every individual has some tendency, perception and knowledge of God within his heart. If he is negligent of God due to some reasons, he cannot deny the incidents which have taken place in his lifetime and in which he has been bereaved of all means causing him to direct his attention to God.[4]

 

[1] - Tafsir Namunah, vol.16, pg. 341 & 342.

[2] - Ibid, pg. 418 – 422 & 423

[3] - Such as verse 65 Al-Ankabut and verse 30 of Sura Al-Room and verse 12, 22, and 23 of Sura Yunus, verse 67 and Sura al-Isra and verses 8 and 49 of Sura al-Zumar.

[4] - Behar al-Anwar, vol.3, pg. 41.

 

See more at http://www.islamportal.net/question/who-god-and-how-it-possible-prove-his-existence‎

[yarahmadian]

Hello all dear seekers of the truth. 

The easiest and the best way to understand and know God is the argument of fitrah (or the way of the heart) whereby a person refers to his own God-gifted nature and to his inward where he sees God without any rational argument or any experimental observation. There is always a luminous spot in man's heart which enables him to communicate with the metaphysical world. It is also the closest way to God.[1]

5. Although knowing God, the tendency towards Him and the light of monotheism are ingrained in the nature of all human beings, the superstitious norms, customs, wrong educations, false inculcations, negligence, pride and a lot of other factors especially when one is healthy and enjoys all kinds of bounties, obstruct and overpower the God-gifted nature. But when he is surrounded by misery and hardship and when he despairs of worldly means and feels that he has no access to anything, it is only then that the curtains go away and that luminous spot becomes visible. It is only then that he drops all kinds of polytheistic thoughts and becomes purified in this oven of difficulties and mishaps[2] turning to the metaphysical world. Man's turning to God during times of calamities is a sign of our inclinations to Godliness. Man gets involved with his position and status so much that he forgets about God. He gets fully entangled in his sins and disobedience. Once calamity befalls upon man, he suddenly remembers God and turns to Him for help. Thus, we realize that this sense of Godliness is intrinsic in humans, but man's involvement in worldly affairs results in his forgetting God.

That is why, there are different Quranic verses that remind mankind about the bounty of God-seeking nature.[3]

The great leaders of Islam also guided in the same way those who went contemplating with hesitation about God. For example read the following piece of history:

A man went to see Imam Ja’far ibn Muhammad al-Sadiq (as) and expressed his amazement about knowing God.

The man said: "I have discussed this issue with many knowledgeable people, but they have not been able to help me." Imam Ja’far Sadiq (a.s) ended his amazement using his intrinsic human Godliness and asked him:

"Have you ever been aboard a ship?"

The man said: "Yes."

Then Imam Jafar Sadiq (a.s) asked: "Have you ever been on a sinking ship, and reached out for a narrow piece of board to stay afloat?"

The man said: "Yes. I have."

Then Imam Jafar Sadiq (a.s) said: "Then while you could not see any dry land or anyone there to save you, were you not really attracted to some power to rescue you?"

The man replied: "Yes."

Imam Sadiq (a.s) said: He is God Who has the power to save. There is no one else to save or to come a person's help."

The conclusion we can draw is that Godliness is intrinsic and that every individual has some tendency, perception and knowledge of God within his heart. If he is negligent of God due to some reasons, he cannot deny the incidents which have taken place in his lifetime and in which he has been bereaved of all means causing him to direct his attention to God.[4]

 

[1] - Tafsir Namunah, vol.16, pg. 341 & 342.

[2] - Ibid, pg. 418 – 422 & 423

[3] - Such as verse 65 Al-Ankabut and verse 30 of Sura Al-Room and verse 12, 22, and 23 of Sura Yunus, verse 67 and Sura al-Isra and verses 8 and 49 of Sura al-Zumar.

[4] - Behar al-Anwar, vol.3, pg. 41.

 

See more at http://www.islamportal.net/question/who-god-and-how-it-possible-prove-his-existence‎