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In the Name of God بسم الله

Re-incarnation

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At what point would we be reincarnated?

After death we have Barzakh. So would it happen during that?

After Barzakh we have Qiyamat. Can't see anyone getting out of that.

After Qiyamat its either Heaven or Hell. That's pretty final too I would say.

So when exactly would reincarnation happen? Not much time available  for it. 

Reincarnation also opens up another can of worms. Which "life" would determine our final judging? Say, I live a horrible life the first time around but I'm reincarnated and I live like a Saint. Are the sins from my first incarnation wiped out?

Reincarnation doesn't make logical sense from an Islamic persepective when we look at the facts regarding the chain of events that happen after we die as well as accountability for our actions upon which we are judged.

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5 hours ago, Akbar673 said:

At what point would we be reincarnated?

After death we have Barzakh. So would it happen during that?

After Barzakh we have Qiyamat. Can't see anyone getting out of that.

After Qiyamat its either Heaven or Hell. That's pretty final too I would say.

So when exactly would reincarnation happen? Not much time available  for it. 

Reincarnation also opens up another can of worms. Which "life" would determine our final judging? Say, I live a horrible life the first time around but I'm reincarnated and I live like a Saint. Are the sins from my first incarnation wiped out?

Reincarnation doesn't make logical sense from an Islamic persepective when we look at the facts regarding the chain of events that happen after we die as well as accountability for our actions upon which we are judged.

You're assuming that we are our bodies. We only have one body, in which we live, die, and in which we are judged. 

What if, and this is a common view, our bodies are mere vessels for our souls, and it is our souls that are judged at the end? 

What if our souls travel from body to body, in life after life, to evolve and shape until they are ready to enter paradise? or until the last cycle of life before they are judged? 

So, the good and bad are added up and averaged at the end. 

I'm not saying I agree with this, but why can't this be possible?

 

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1 hour ago, SoRoUsH said:

I'm not saying I agree with this, but why can't this be possible?

 

28 minutes ago, Akbar673 said:

Is reincarnation discussed anywhere outside of Pagan religions ?

What has been said of it within the Abrahamic religions ?

Holy Qur'an 23:99-100 says there is no return:


"Until when death overtakes one of them, he says: Send me back, my Lord, send me back; Haply I may do good in that which I have left. By no means! it is a (mere) word that he speaks; and before them is a barrier until the day they are raised."

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13 minutes ago, hameedeh said:

Holy Qur'an 23:99-100 says there is no return:

"Until when death overtakes one of them, he says: Send me back, my Lord, send me back; Haply I may do good in that which I have left. By no means! it is a (mere) word that he speaks; and before them is a barrier until the day they are raised."

What is death? The end of one's life? Which life? Life of the soul or the body? What if it is the end of the last cycle and not the first death? We know there is a point of no return, but where is that point? 

Not all people who believe in re-incarnation believe in its infinite cyclical form. 

 

 

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Holy Qur'an 23:99-100 says there is no return:

"Until when death overtakes one of them, he says: Send me back, my Lord, send me back; Haply I may do good in that which I have left. By no means! it is a (mere) word that he speaks; and before them is a barrier until the day they are raised."

The Holy Qur'an states that upon death the human soul will not live twice on this Earth, so it will not be allowed to occupy another living body, human or non-human.

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7 minutes ago, hameedeh said:

The Holy Qur'an states that upon death the human soul will not live twice on this Earth, so it will not be allowed to occupy another living body, human or non-human.

Which death? Is there only one death? Death of the body? Does the human soul ever die? 

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1 hour ago, Venomous_92 said:

Every soul has a destination, so believing in reincarnation is unimaginable.

How so? 

When is this destination supposed to be reached? After death? Which death? Body's death? First death? What if this destination is reached after a few deaths in a few different bodies? 

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30 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

How so? 

When is this destination supposed to be reached? After death? Which death? Body's death? First death? What if this destination is reached after a few deaths in a few different bodies? 

When the nerve system is complete shutdown you're complete dead, you only live once. whether you believe it or not, It's up to you.

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12 minutes ago, Venomous_92 said:

When the nerve system is complete shutdown you're complete dead, you only live once. whether you believe it or not, It's up to you.

That's the brain-dead definition of death. 

What if the brain is dead but the heart still beats? 

When you say "you only live once," what is "you"? Soul? Body? Brain? Spirit? 

 

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2 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Don't you think this might have been mentioned somewhere in the Qur'an or in the teachings of the Prophet and Imams if it were true? You've got to admit, it would be a rather strange omission.

Or may be it is?

That's why I, initially, asked for textual evidence, the ahadith of ahl al-bayt (as), on this topic. 

Quranic verses are wonderful, of course, but to properly understand them, we need the explanation of ahl al bayt (as).

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13 hours ago, E.L King said:

There is something called the Barzakh. It is mentioned in the Holy Qur'an and the Hadiths 

I know. What about it? 

It's an intermediary world between this world and the next. 

However, the main question remains. When does the life on this world end? with the death of the body? or death of the soul? Are we our bodies or our souls? 

 

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2 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

I know. What about it? 

It's an intermediary world between this world and the next. 

However, the main question remains. When does the life on this world end? with the death of the body? or death of the soul? Are we our bodies or our souls? 

 

The body

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There is no reincarnation of the soul.   It's not a matter of if we can believe in it or not, it doesn't exist.

If reincarnation existed, then all of us are walking reincarnations of Adam and Eve AS on them both.   If we take the word of God in the Quran to be fact, there was Adam and Eve AS only, and from them the world/tribes were made and born. 

By that same logic of applying Quran', God said we have one life, and one test.  Thus no reincarnation.  We all are individually created and unique (even supported by Science as there are nearly infinite permutations of DNA combinations considering mutations).

If reincarnation was real and is a thing, Then we are all reincarnations of Adam, Eve, Prophets, SAW, Imams, Etc.  Which... is incredulous.  However we are from one ancestor, and of one religion, yet  we are all not the same person.

God won't hand us 3 books the lives we lived, or say you lived better in this life than the other, it's quite illogical.  (one life youre murderer, verses next life a peaceful person, w/e).  God grants non of us humans intercession per the Qu'ran, when we die our soul resides in Barzakh, an inner dimension between the realm of God and the realm of Earth.

Reincarnation even as a scientific/ non religious context is easily debunked.  

There is no infinite cycle, we will all die, and humanity and earth will be destroyed one way or another, whichever God has chosen.  Solar Nova, Crazy Comet, Nuclear War, or some unpredictable Earthquakes releasing poison killing us all, take your pick.

Though reincarnation is an interesting topic in a creative/imagination realm it's not something we can seriously ponder and assume to be reality as it' purely illogical.  Concept of reincarnation as a real thing is as absurd as the number infinite; these will never exist in human reality, as reincarnation is just another side of the same coin of infinite, with no purpose.

If reincarnation can't exist because of everyone's incessant need to bucket themselves to be individualistic and divide. 

Souls are a part of Allah swt, as He breathed life into our bodies...serving our Ru7/soul.  They don't die, they are light.

Science, energy is neither created nor destroyed (but some reason life can be).  Reincarnation doesn't recycle human souls to fit the mold of the other, otherwise Heaven/Hell would only have 0 or 2 inhabitants based on your perspective.

This is why reincarnation cannot be possible, at least for humans.  I would suspect the same as well for animals.

I hope this is insightful for you, *shrug*

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We also have to consider the fact that Allah SWT created all the souls that will ever exist at some point and took an oath from them that He was their one and true Creator. This means that whether a human being is born on this earth the first time, second time or what have you, his/her soul is already existing somewhere and enters the body when the mother is bearing the child in her womb. 

In my opinion, everything happens with Allah SWT's permission and so whilst we maybe creating chicks in refrigerators by fertilizing a chicken's egg w/ the sperm, it is still Allah SWT who allows the soul to enter a body of a being. 

 

When it comes to re-incarnation, I feel that nothing is impossible for Allah SWT and if Allah SWT wanted to completely un-create a soul and create it again, who is to say that He SWT cannot do so? I don't personally think it is a phenomenon that occurs frequently because what would be the purpose then, you have to ask, as Allah SWT does not make mistakes. But, we don't have the wisdom that Allah SWT has and so we cannot say what can and cannot happen as there are somethings that only Allah SWT knows.

You also have to consider the Ruh-ul-Quds that resided with the Prophets and the Imams during the terms of their Prophethood and Imamah, respectively. I tend to think there is no re-incarnation when it comes to Ruh-ul-Quds, it is just one soul through which Allah SWT guides His Prophets and Imams but it enters them at a specified time for a certain period of time until the death of the Prophet / Imam. So maybe, re-incarnation isn't the term for it or a way to describe this phenomenon but maybe it gets close enough to the concept?

My 2 cents.

 

 

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22 hours ago, repenter said:

The body

You're saying each individual is his/her body? 

So, as the body deteriorates, so does the person? An amputated person or a paraplegic person is less of a person than a fully functional person? 

And if we die with our bodies, then how can we go to Barzakh? 

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22 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

There is no reincarnation of the soul.   It's not a matter of if we can believe in it or not, it doesn't exist.

If reincarnation existed, then all of us are walking reincarnations of Adam and Eve AS on them both.   If we take the word of God in the Quran to be fact, there was Adam and Eve AS only, and from them the world/tribes were made and born. 

By that same logic of applying Quran', God said we have one life, and one test.  Thus no reincarnation.  We all are individually created and unique (even supported by Science as there are nearly infinite permutations of DNA combinations considering mutations).

If reincarnation was real and is a thing, Then we are all reincarnations of Adam, Eve, Prophets, SAW, Imams, Etc.  Which... is incredulous.  However we are from one ancestor, and of one religion, yet  we are all not the same person.

God won't hand us 3 books the lives we lived, or say you lived better in this life than the other, it's quite illogical.  (one life youre murderer, verses next life a peaceful person, w/e).  God grants non of us humans intercession per the Qu'ran, when we die our soul resides in Barzakh, an inner dimension between the realm of God and the realm of Earth.

Reincarnation even as a scientific/ non religious context is easily debunked.  

There is no infinite cycle, we will all die, and humanity and earth will be destroyed one way or another, whichever God has chosen.  Solar Nova, Crazy Comet, Nuclear War, or some unpredictable Earthquakes releasing poison killing us all, take your pick.

Though reincarnation is an interesting topic in a creative/imagination realm it's not something we can seriously ponder and assume to be reality as it' purely illogical.  Concept of reincarnation as a real thing is as absurd as the number infinite; these will never exist in human reality, as reincarnation is just another side of the same coin of infinite, with no purpose.

If reincarnation can't exist because of everyone's incessant need to bucket themselves to be individualistic and divide. 

Souls are a part of Allah swt, as He breathed life into our bodies...serving our Ru7/soul.  They don't die, they are light.

Science, energy is neither created nor destroyed (but some reason life can be).  Reincarnation doesn't recycle human souls to fit the mold of the other, otherwise Heaven/Hell would only have 0 or 2 inhabitants based on your perspective.

This is why reincarnation cannot be possible, at least for humans.  I would suspect the same as well for animals.

I hope this is insightful for you, *shrug*

It was bodies of Adam and Eve (as) that were the first human bodies. However, as we know, the light of Mohammad and Ali (as) were created first. In other words, Mohammad (pbuh) existed before Adam (as), and Mohammad wasn't his body when he (pbuh) was first created as light. 

 

God gives us one book for our life. Which life? Maybe the life of our soul, which lived through multiple bodies. 

If we die and our souls reside in barzakh, then we are not our bodies. Since, clearly, we continue to exist after the death of our bodies. 

No body is saying that there's no ultimate end. Heavens and earth and everything else will be destroyed before Qiyamah. But that still doesn't reject the idea that before such destruction souls can live in multiple bodies. 

Again...

What is the unit of individuality? Your brain? Your body? Your soul? What makes you, you? If you agree that your will continue to live after death, in Barzakh, then you're implying that you are not your body, which makes your body a vessel of some sort, a mere container of you. 

So, what is you? and why this you move into another vessel/container for a whole new range of experiences? 

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5 hours ago, QiiQii said:

We also have to consider the fact that Allah SWT created all the souls that will ever exist at some point and took an oath from them that He was their one and true Creator. This means that whether a human being is born on this earth the first time, second time or what have you, his/her soul is already existing somewhere and enters the body when the mother is bearing the child in her womb. 

In my opinion, everything happens with Allah SWT's permission and so whilst we maybe creating chicks in refrigerators by fertilizing a chicken's egg w/ the sperm, it is still Allah SWT who allows the soul to enter a body of a being. 

 

When it comes to re-incarnation, I feel that nothing is impossible for Allah SWT and if Allah SWT wanted to completely un-create a soul and create it again, who is to say that He SWT cannot do so? I don't personally think it is a phenomenon that occurs frequently because what would be the purpose then, you have to ask, as Allah SWT does not make mistakes. But, we don't have the wisdom that Allah SWT has and so we cannot say what can and cannot happen as there are somethings that only Allah SWT knows.

You also have to consider the Ruh-ul-Quds that resided with the Prophets and the Imams during the terms of their Prophethood and Imamah, respectively. I tend to think there is no re-incarnation when it comes to Ruh-ul-Quds, it is just one soul through which Allah SWT guides His Prophets and Imams but it enters them at a specified time for a certain period of time until the death of the Prophet / Imam. So maybe, re-incarnation isn't the term for it or a way to describe this phenomenon but maybe it gets close enough to the concept?

My 2 cents.

 

 

You raise excellent points. 

We existed before our bodies, before Adam and Eve. In that existence we gave an oath to worship God. Therefore, souls existed before bodies. Consequently, we cannot be our bodies. 

 

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14 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

It was bodies of Adam and Eve (as) that were the first human bodies. However, as we know, the light of Mohammad and Ali (as) were created first. In other words, Mohammad (pbuh) existed before Adam (as), and Mohammad wasn't his body when he (pbuh) was first created as light. 

 

God gives us one book for our life. Which life? Maybe the life of our soul, which lived through multiple bodies. 

If we die and our souls reside in barzakh, then we are not our bodies. Since, clearly, we continue to exist after the death of our bodies. 

No body is saying that there's no ultimate end. Heavens and earth and everything else will be destroyed before Qiyamah. But that still doesn't reject the idea that before such destruction souls can live in multiple bodies. 

Again...

What is the unit of individuality? Your brain? Your body? Your soul? What makes you, you? If you agree that your will continue to live after death, in Barzakh, then you're implying that you are not your body, which makes your body a vessel of some sort, a mere container of you. 

So, what is you? and why this you move into another vessel/container for a whole new range of experiences? 

The day of resurrection specifies that our bodies will be put together again. our bodies are. connected to our souls such that a souls decisions are shaped by its container, especially how our deeds are carried out.  beauty, missing limbs elderly respect, uglyness, strong bodies, weak bodies, blind, deaf, dumb, are all factored in weighing our deeds as our decisions are somewhat influenced by these attributes thus impacting the souls weighing.  soul and container are not mutually exclusive. since we retain our bodies , we most likely do not violate paradoxical implications of reincarnation (such as relative souls being reconstituted with new bodies thus revoking kinship , and laws thereof, such that we all have one mother and one father) 

 

my apologies, i do not share the shia \sunni view that our prophet saw and imam as were ethereally created before adam as. I believe God created Jinn before Adam per Quran 15:26-27. 21:107 and 1:1,  to me doesn't insinuate the view necessarily meaning our prophet's saw light was first.

in 2:47 Allah swt uses the same word to israel to mean world(s), if you assume alameen means all creation, then assuming your view that muhammsd saw already exists, then this includes him in alameen.  then the verse implies God favored israel over everyone including muhammad saw?  im not sure its wise to make sweeping assumptions like this, considering all 76 mentions of. alameen, surely there's a middle path.

i don't see in quran basis of this  claim, only explicitly Adam as in 38:71.   If knowledge was passed down from adam as down to prophet to prophet uninterrupted, then our story of ibrahim as wouldn't be such that he searched for Allah swt in all dunya objects before rejecting them.

but to each their own opinion and interpretation.

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Salam,

Reincarnation is something which has not been dealt with directly in the sources of Islam. That is why the Islamic scholars throughout the ages have resorted to intellectual proofs to show that reincarnation is not possible. However, upon thorough inspection it is found that their proofs do not hold much ground. For example, Mulla Sadra, in his philosophy, goes to great and intricate lengths to prove that the soul is جسمانية الحدوث و روحانية البقاء (bodily in origin and spiritual in continuation). And he does this because if he was to admit that the soul doesn't begin with the body but existed spiritually before the body, this would mean that reincarnation would be theoretically possible. But the truth of the matter is that it is very clear from the ahadith that the soul existed in a higher world before coming in to this world.

Although, the overall impression that one gets upon studying the Quran and the ahadith is that there is no such thing as reincarnation. Hence why the scholars have made such efforts to disprove it. In any case,  the fact that the Quran and the Ahlul Bayt have remained silent on the subject should be taken as an indication that it is not important and thus we shouldn't spend alot of time on it. I have only come across one hadith which directly mentions reincarnation:

قال المامون للرضا يا ابا الحسن ما تقول في القاءلين بالتناسخ؟ فقال الرضا من قال بالتناسخ فهو كافر بالله العظيم يكذب بالجنة و النار

Al-Mamoun said to Imam al-Ridha(as): What do you say about those who believe in reincarnation? He replied: Whoever believes in reincarnation has disbelieved in Allah the Great and belied Paradise and Hell.

It should be noted though that when interpreting ahadith, the meaning of terms used in them should be taken as the meaning which was understood by the people of that time, as they are ones to whom the Imam was speaking. And I am assuming that what was understood by reincarnation then was the Hindu concept of a constant cycle without any Day of Judgment in the picture.

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On 10/7/2016 at 8:49 PM, SoRoUsH said:

You're saying each individual is his/her body? 

So, as the body deteriorates, so does the person? An amputated person or a paraplegic person is less of a person than a fully functional person? 

And if we die with our bodies, then how can we go to Barzakh? 

The soul can sustain being in this world due to the vessel(the body). When the body dies, the soul can no longer be in this world the way we know it. 

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On 10/8/2016 at 4:32 PM, Haydar Husayn said:

I would be curious as to how this concept of reincarnation fits in with bodily resurrection. If one soul passed through several bodies, then which of them will the soul go back to?

I also wanted to add, another paradoxical indication and logical proof that reincarnation cannot exist:

Suppose humanity has been wiped out by a nuclear (god forbid) fallout. Or perhaps even better, its the beginning of the humans time on earth....

2 humans exist. 1 man and 1 woman.  For the sake of argument, Both man and woman are 15 years old.

For the sake of populating earth, the 2 individuals agreed to procreate as soon as they can after each child is delivered that they conceive a child again immediately, and decide that the woman's child should it be a girl, should conceive a child as soon as humanly possible (lets say 15 years old, for the sake of argument, no I'm not a pedophile).

60 years later, assuming the original 2 humans are still alive, let's assume they had 2 children each generation, and their children had 2 children each generation and so forth.

2 humans had 2 kids each 2 years until the woman was 50 (assuming menopausal age), so they end up having 20 ish kids, Then those 20 kids have kids 15 years and those kids kid's 15 years from now (mashallah) and they end up having (extreme exponential growth abiding by same rules) 20+18+16+14+12...+2 grand kids (because their first set of kids turn 15 in 15 years, and it further cascades down each year).

Sounds confusing and mathy, but don't focus on that.

Focus on the  part where the parents are still alive and therefore their souls can't paradoxically exist twice at the same time in the same place (since we know each soul is unique right?), since 60 years pass and both original parents are alive (75 years old respectively), have already in 60 years generated ....  over 100 kids and grand kids. 

Where did the offspring souls come from?  At what point does the soul become recycled into another container? It can't have come from their parents, grand parents, siblings, etc. etc., could it?   Assuming miraculously they all had surviving babies, there's no room for reincarnation.  Assuming a few died/miscarriages, etc., were the intended souls of those miscarried/infant deaths moved over to the future ones?

At the first death of this huge family, does this mean that the number of souls in the pool of humanity is limited to the first number of people to exist until the first death??  Because human population has grown more and more, than it has from the previous generation, which means there would be copies of souls?

You can throw science, religion, any theoretical possibilities conjured by the many great mans of humanity, there definitely at one point in time had to have been a handful a humans if it didn't start with two humans. 

And therefore there can never have been (or EVER be) an occurrence of two souls existing , of the same person,  at the same time because the only way for reincarnation to work conceptually is that the soul of the parent(s), or a predeceased  ancestor randomly coming in at a new birth... and the rest following suit and so its creates the possibility in ever continuing expansion of the human population that two identical souls will exist at the same time.

I'm not a religious scholar, I'm just an idiot who reads and thinks too much.  But considering the implications of reincarnation, it's borderline disbelief  or kufr.  I don't mean that in an offensive way, as Kufr means to conceal an obvious truth, and it seems that reincarnation if the human applies the God granted wisdom, they will come to understand it's an untruth.

 

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On 10/8/2016 at 2:58 AM, wmehar2 said:

my apologies, i do not share the shia \sunni view that our prophet saw and imam as were ethereally created before adam as. I believe God created Jinn before Adam per Quran 15:26-27. 21:107 and 1:1,  to me doesn't insinuate the view necessarily meaning our prophet's saw light was first.

in 2:47 Allah swt uses the same word to israel to mean world(s), if you assume alameen means all creation, then assuming your view that muhammsd saw already exists, then this includes him in alameen.  then the verse implies God favored israel over everyone including muhammad saw?  im not sure its wise to make sweeping assumptions like this, considering all 76 mentions of. alameen, surely there's a middle path.

i don't see in quran basis of this  claim, only explicitly Adam as in 38:71.   If knowledge was passed down from adam as down to prophet to prophet uninterrupted, then our story of ibrahim as wouldn't be such that he searched for Allah swt in all dunya objects before rejecting them.

but to each their own opinion and interpretation.

What about the Primordial Oath we all made before coming to physical existence? 

And [mention] when your Lord took from the children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants and made them testify of themselves, [saying to them], "Am I not your Lord?" They said, "Yes, we have testified." [This] - lest you should say on the day of Resurrection, "Indeed, we were of this unaware." (7:172)

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38 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

What about the Primordial Oath we all made before coming to physical existence? 

And [mention] when your Lord took from the children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants and made them testify of themselves, [saying to them], "Am I not your Lord?" They said, "Yes, we have testified." [This] - lest you should say on the day of Resurrection, "Indeed, we were of this unaware." (7:172)

Adam AS, still came first and they from his loins. 

The verse if anything supports Adam's existence before anything else by having his loins contain descendants.  In no way or shape or form does this verse insinuate nor imply that anyone of us pre-existed Adam AS.

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