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submitter71

Simple Reason why Shiasm is False

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9 hours ago, skamran110 said:

Based on 100 narrations about salah difference of method of prayer in sunnis is so obvious that Hanafi, Hanbali, Shafii, wahabi, deobadni follow the version with closed hands while the Maliki follow the method of prayer like Shia with open hands.

 

You are making the assumption that the 100+ narrations that teach prayer in Saheeh Al Bukhari are riddled with contradictions. Please present your evidences instead of making assumptions.

Edited by submitter71

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On 10/2/2016 at 1:59 PM, DigitalUmmah said:

Sunni logic, ladies and gentlemen.

Abu hurraira narrated approximately 5400 hadith in their books. He spent what, 3 years? With the prophet pbuh?

Ammi jaan aisha narrated approx 2200 hadith in their books, having lived with the prophet 9 years

Maula Ali (as) who lived with the holy prophet ALL HIS LIFE, was raised in the same house, who spent all his time around the prophet.....narrates 536 hadith in their books.

So the sunni thinks shiism is wrong, because we have more hadith through maula Ali (as) than abu hurraira or ammi jaan aisha.

Really stop and take the time to think how stupid sunnism is.

you just rocked..... mind blowing answer

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17 hours ago, submitter71 said:

Brother, I don't have an issue with these narrations in the first place. They are authentic according to both Sunnis and Shias. 

Brother, can you show me please these narrations (prophet (s) forgetting in his prayers) in shia books that at considered authentic and accepted by top shia scholars? Thank you.

 

16 hours ago, submitter71 said:

Again, the Shia contradictions in fiqh are four volumes long

I would like to see this. Please provide a screenshot of this accusation.

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8 hours ago, submitter71 said:

You are making the assumption that the 100+ narrations that teach prayer in Saheeh Al Bukhari are riddled with contradictions. Please present your evidences instead of making assumptions.

I am not making assumptions I  have quoted the facts about the salat based on sunni narrations. The differences  are obvious among sunni methods of prayer and  these are inconsistent.

Do you deny the differences in method of prayer in sunnis?

brother goldenhawk has already mentioned some sunni narrations to identify the inconsistencies about salat.

WS

 

Edited by skamran110

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4 hours ago, goldenhawk said:

Brother, can you show me please these narrations (prophet (s) forgetting in his prayers) in shia books that at considered authentic and accepted by top shia scholars? Thank you.

 

First of all, I would like to thank you for being the first person to ask for evidence. Everyone else on this thread has shrugged off what I would say as insignificant or false.

In this link you can find Al Saduq and his teacher Ibn Babawayh accepting these hadiths http://www.alhassanain.com/arabic/book/book/al_hadith_and_its_sciences_library/bodies_of_hadith/man_la_yahdhoroho_alfaqih_1/22.html

Scroll to the bottom to page 359 and 360.

 

4 hours ago, goldenhawk said:

I would like to see this. Please provide a screenshot of this accusation.

 

Here is a wiki page about the book and its content https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Istibsar

This is a page on Al Tusi which mentions that Istibsar is four volumes long in the footnotes https://www.al-islam.org/al-serat/vol-2-1976/great-shii-works-tahdhib-al-ahkam-and-al-istibsar-al-tusi/great-shii-works

 

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2 hours ago, submitter71 said:

 

First of all, I would like to thank you for being the first person to ask for evidence. Everyone else on this thread has shrugged off what I would say as insignificant or false.

In this link you can find Al Saduq and his teacher Ibn Babawayh accepting these hadiths http://www.alhassanain.com/arabic/book/book/al_hadith_and_its_sciences_library/bodies_of_hadith/man_la_yahdhoroho_alfaqih_1/22.html

Scroll to the bottom to page 359 and 360.

 

 

Here is a wiki page about the book and its content https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Istibsar

This is a page on Al Tusi which mentions that Istibsar is four volumes long in the footnotes https://www.al-islam.org/al-serat/vol-2-1976/great-shii-works-tahdhib-al-ahkam-and-al-istibsar-al-tusi/great-shii-works

 

To be honest I am not sure what the issue is here. Let me summarise the situtuation

Sunni Hadith

Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim authored 300 years after the death of the Holy Prophet.

Only 1% of the reviewed hadith included ( I might be wrong)

Leaves a huge margin of error of potentially correct hadith being excluded. Potentially a huge pool of knowledge lost for ever because it was never recorded 

Shia Hadith compiled hundreds of year later

Lots of hadith recorded even contradictory ones. Left to other people and future generations to authenticate. So in this case information recorded even at risk of being wrong. 

Sunni hadith say their hadith are now 'authenticated' and are Sahih.

Shia say we do not presume to 'authenticate' .

Different approaches 

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54 minutes ago, A true Sunni said:

Sunni Hadith

Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim authored 300 years after the death of the Holy Prophet.

Only 1% of the reviewed hadith included ( I might be wrong)

Leaves a huge margin of error of potentially correct hadith being excluded. Potentially a huge pool of knowledge lost for ever because it was never recorded 

This part is agreed about sunni hadith compilation.

54 minutes ago, A true Sunni said:

Shia Hadith compiled hundreds of year later

Lots of hadith recorded even contradictory ones. Left to other people and future generations to authenticate. So in this case information recorded even at risk of being wrong. 

the following is added in the light of discussion already conducted at SC in this concern:

The Imams as from progeny of the prophet saww were present to guide the people on the issues after the prophet saww. Various books written in the life of imams are mentioned in the link:

WS

Edited by skamran110

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56 minutes ago, A true Sunni said:

Sunni hadith say their hadith are now 'authenticated' and are Sahih.

Shia say we do not presume to 'authenticate' .

Different approaches 

for sunnis everything written in 6 books is sahih ie authntic. even if the text contradicts the quran.

For shias every hdith has to be carefully taken with regards to the text in line with the other hadiths and the verses of quran.

.

 

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51 minutes ago, skamran110 said:

for sunnis everything written in 6 books is sahih ie authntic. even if the text contradicts the quran.

 

I think you should be careful in your accusations. Quite clearly this is not true even if you choose to nit pick.

Stones and glasshouses as you mentioned earlier. Its possible to misrepresent many hadith if you want if you have a mind to.

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9 hours ago, submitter71 said:

 

First of all, I would like to thank you for being the first person to ask for evidence. Everyone else on this thread has shrugged off what I would say as insignificant or false.

In this link you can find Al Saduq and his teacher Ibn Babawayh accepting these hadiths http://www.alhassanain.com/arabic/book/book/al_hadith_and_its_sciences_library/bodies_of_hadith/man_la_yahdhoroho_alfaqih_1/22.html

Scroll to the bottom to page 359 and 360.

 

 

Here is a wiki page about the book and its content https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Istibsar

This is a page on Al Tusi which mentions that Istibsar is four volumes long in the footnotes https://www.al-islam.org/al-serat/vol-2-1976/great-shii-works-tahdhib-al-ahkam-and-al-istibsar-al-tusi/great-shii-works

 

 

Thank you, brother. I will investigate this and get back to you insha Allah. 

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20 hours ago, submitter71 said:

In this link you can find Al Saduq and his teacher Ibn Babawayh accepting these hadiths http://www.alhassanain.com/arabic/book/book/al_hadith_and_its_sciences_library/bodies_of_hadith/man_la_yahdhoroho_alfaqih_1/22.html

Scroll to the bottom to page 359 and 360.

I have checked this and you are right, it is there. I am shocked indeed. I'm not going to make up lame excuses. I have to be honest and be man enough to say that I have no answer to that specific evidence you provided so well done and I own up that you have got me there.

However, there is a difference in what we that shia scholar believed to what sunnis believe.. The scholar say in other narration that the prophet (sawas) was "forced" to forget in prayer by Allah but according to your books, he was just being a forgetful human being and was not forced.

Also, please note, i'm not someone who is compelled to accept a narration just because a scholar has written it in his book. For me, this narration goes against my usul. To me, Salah is a vital part of the religion. It would be illogical for the holy prophet (sawas) to make this mistake in front of everyone so people can "learn" from it, when he could just give them an example without even praying in front of them or even he could just say what to do in this situation.

Its honestly nonsense for him to actually mess up a compulsory salah on purpose just to show us this procedure, while practically disobeying God for in return him showing us the truth. Where do we draw the line? Next can a prophet commit a act of indecency on purpose just to teach us how to rectify the mistake? You could come up with anything in fact and make up a excuse that it was just to teach us! To me this seems like a contradiction.

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2 minutes ago, goldenhawk said:

Next can a prophet commit a act of indecency

Next is we become like the followers of Old Testament and New Testament where the Prophets (pbuh) are sinful .....

 

4 minutes ago, goldenhawk said:

. Where do we draw the line?

Exactly. There is a reason why we have intellect it's to use it. Of course our Holy Prophet ( pbuh&hf) would never mess up a salah.  

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9 hours ago, goldenhawk said:

I have checked this and you are right, it is there. I am shocked indeed. I'm not going to make up lame excuses. I have to be honest and be man enough to say that I have no answer to that specific evidence you provided so well done and I own up that you have got me there.

However, there is a difference in what we that shia scholar believed to what sunnis believe.. The scholar say in other narration that the prophet (sawas) was "forced" to forget in prayer by Allah but according to your books, he was just being a forgetful human being and was not forced.

Also, please note, i'm not someone who is compelled to accept a narration just because a scholar has written it in his book. For me, this narration goes against my usul. To me, Salah is a vital part of the religion. It would be illogical for the holy prophet (sawas) to make this mistake in front of everyone so people can "learn" from it, when he could just give them an example without even praying in front of them or even he could just say what to do in this situation.

Its honestly nonsense for him to actually mess up a compulsory salah on purpose just to show us this procedure, while practically disobeying God for in return him showing us the truth. Where do we draw the line? Next can a prophet commit a act of indecency on purpose just to teach us how to rectify the mistake? You could come up with anything in fact and make up a excuse that it was just to teach us! To me this seems like a contradiction.

You nailed it brother. Our first and foremost criteria in accepting/rejecting any hadith is matching it against Quran. Allah tells us to obey the Prophet. Allah CANNOT force us to follow someone who made mistakes because the risk would be having the entire ummah go on the wrong path. Moreover, the Quran explicitly states that the Prophet does not err.

There is a prominent sahabi who used to doubt and openly question the Prophet. While brother @submitter71 can follow that sahabi's sunnah and doubt the Prophet, alhumdulillah we know better.  

My sunni brothers are stuck in a quagmire. Since they admit to having 'sahih' books, they have no choice but to accept the narrations that shed bad light on the Prophet simply to preserve the sanctity of the 'sahih' book. So they believe the Prophet can get bewitched because the other option will be to admit 'sahihain' are NOT.

And once again, the hypocrisy of the Sunni World is such that they would rather insult and degrade the Prophet than admit the mistakes in the Sahihain,

Edited by shiaman14

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People often forget the political aspect. All if not many, many ahaadith were fabricated just to justify and strengthen an ideology, rulership or a dynasty.

We had ahaadith fabricators then, we have FOXnews now.

The problem I have with sunni ahaadith is that their supervisors were unjust rulers.

And though we have ahaadith in favor of Ahl al-Bayt a.s., it is the same as those verses in the Bible which proof that Jesus a.s. is not God which doesn't mean that the rest is authentic as well. Authentic in the sense of truthful.

I cannot take such collections serious at all.

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Quote

Also, please note, i'm not someone who is compelled to accept a narration just because a scholar has written it in his book. For me, this narration goes against my usul. To me, Salah is a vital part of the religion. It would be illogical for the holy prophet (sawas) to make this mistake in front of everyone so people can "learn" from it, when he could just give them an example without even praying in front of them or even he could just say what to do in this situation.

Its honestly nonsense for him to actually mess up a compulsory salah on purpose just to show us this procedure, while practically disobeying God for in return him showing us the truth. Where do we draw the line? Next can a prophet commit a act of indecency on purpose just to teach us how to rectify the mistake? You could come up with anything in fact and make up a excuse that it was just to teach us! To me this seems like a contradiction.

That is what Intellect is for, to not come to such conclusion when the whole prophets message was to preach about the importance of Salat, and suddenly Allah (swt) made him to forget to pray. Allah (swt) have said many time in Qur'an to reflect and be honest and to think and to not be biased for seeking the truth. The truth will always be found from Qur'an, and the Qur'an is the first book that we always should reflect and follow in the same manner how it was revealed to the Prophet. The other information (hadith, historical evidence etc) is secondary and not the first! and it should always be taken if and only if it is necessary for the truth. 

Most people seek from the Hadiths and from the belief of their own sects (But what if they are wrong?), when the journey should always start from yourself and from follow the Qur'an and let it leads to the right path by Allah (swt) will. 

Edited by Dhulfikar

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On 10/2/2016 at 6:59 AM, submitter71 said:

Salam.

Every Shia believes that the best thing about Shia-Islam is that they have many narrations from Ahl Al Bayt. Shias have narrated so much from Ahl Al Bayt that the number of narrations from Jafar Al Sadiq is probably a hundred times more than the narrations from the Prophet peace be upon him.

I sometimes ask Shias: Why choose a sect that does not have many prophetic hadiths? They usually don't know this is true.

I challenge every Shia that has doubt to open up a random page in Al Kafi in order to find a prophetic hadith. Then, try it again ten times. The chances of you finding a hadith from the Prophet peace be upon him is very low. If you do the same with Sunni hadith books like Bukhari and Muslim, then you will find two or three narrations per page at least. 

 

So, we ask Shias, why follow a sect with very little prophetic hadiths? They say that they want to get their religion from Ahl Al Bayt. 

Strangely when we go to their books of hadith we find sooo many contradictions from the "infallible" Imams, to the extent that I can safely say that it is not possible to get hadith of Ahl Al Bayt from Shia books. Al Tusi collected four volumes of contradictions. Many of his attempts to reconcile authentic hadiths are silly. The more learned members here will agree with me. 

So the Shia scholars came up with the excuse of taqia. They say the Imam made taqia for the method of wiping head for ablution, for whether or not alcohol is impure, and for how much milk an infant drinking before he is made haram upon the wet-nurse. Everything and anything that cannot be explained by Shia scholars is supposedly taqia, no matter how insignificant it is. 

The real reason for these contradictions is because the Shias put faith in some narrators, who were liars in reality. 

 

As a Sunni, I ask: Why follow a sect that has relatively no prophetic hadiths? Why follow a sect in which you do not have the ability to know what the Imams taught? Sunnis have volumes of prophetic hadiths. We also have many narrations from Ahl Al Bayt, and they do not contain contradictions. 

Enlightening post dear brother.

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Every Sunni sect r smart and Shia r stupid bcoz Sunnis as a jamat have common understanding such as question every single rules or act of Shia, like y u pray on sand. But y we pray on carpets shud b ignored means a jamat who r busy looking at Shia rather than themselves. They r sure Shia r kaafir but when for eg. Ahlhadees student ask their scholars r u sure we'll go to jannah the scholar shall reply allahu aalam wow but he knows Shia r on the wrong path. No Sunni school claims they r the only one who shall b heading to jannah but they r sure that Shia r heading to jahannum, wow what a true jamat all r united against Shia I feel pity on them. Everything has been decided they can't ponder freely or decide about their akhirath but they r free when it comes to Shia wow they even ask logic only when it comes to Shia but never ask to themselves. like Imam is the one who gives jurisprudence so bukhari never was faqih so how come he is Imam that so sahih Imam that too not being an Arab that too not have seen nabi that too was a blind earlier that too he himself wrote on the first page "if one found his Hadith to b wrong then throw my book on the wall" then claims he checked each Hadith by praying Salah, that too he did not disclose his own aqeeda whether he was a believer in waseela or direct approach means non waseela, y he did not approach aal Muhammad for hadeeth but went to all others families. Oh Sorry, y he threw lakhs of Hadith and reduce it to some 8000 odd. Y all 4 faqih r right though they r not similar even in Salah.    Dear Sunni jamat ask itself first b confident then question others Shia word is in quran which is referred to nabi Ibrahim where is Sunni if not in quran pls let us know who gave u the name Sunni is it Abdallah ibn Sabah or whom 

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