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Simple Reason why Shiasm is False

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This hadith has been narrated. on the authority of Shu'ba with the same chain of transmitters. Amir b. Sa'd b. Abi Waqqas reported on the authority of his father that Muawiya b. Abi Sufyin appointed Sa'd as the Governor and said: What prevents you from abusing Abu Turab (Hadrat 'Ali), whereupon be said: It is because of three things which I remember Allaah's Messenger (sallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam) having said about him that I would not abuse him and even if I find one of those three things for me, it would be more dear to me than the red camelg. I heard Allaah's Messenger (sallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam) say about 'Ali as he left behind hrin in one of his campaigns (that was Tabuk). 'All said to him: Allaah's Messenger, you leave me behind along with women and children. Thereupon Allaah's Messenger (sallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam) said to him: Aren't you satisfied with being unto me what Aaron was unto Moses but with this exception that there is no prophethood after me. And I (also) heard him say on the Day of Khaibar: I would certainly give this standard to a person who loves Allaah and his Messenger and Allaah and his Messenger love him too. He (the narrator) said: We have been anxiously waiting for it, when he (the Prophet) said: Call 'Ali. He was called and his eyes were inflamed. He applied saliva to his eyes and handed over the standard to him, and Allaah gave him victory. (The third occasion is this) when the (following) verse was revealed:" Let us summon our children and your children." Allaah's Messenger (sallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam) called 'Ali, Fitima, Hasan and Husain and said: O Allaah, they are my family.

 

transp.gif

Even the enemies couldnt lie

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2 hours ago, goldenhawk said:

This is because of the way Uthman complied the quran. He may have mixed Meccan ayahs with madani surahs and may have mixed madni ayahs with Meccan surahs. 

This is one example:

According to top sunni books, surah towbah (surah 9) was one of the last surahs to be revealed in medina. 

Yet the narration below speaks of a event during the Meccan period when an ayah from surah towbah was revealed !

حَدَّثَنَا إِسْحَاقُ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ، حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ الرَّزَّاقِ، أَخْبَرَنَا مَعْمَرٌ، عَنِ الزُّهْرِيِّ، عَنْ سَعِيدِ بْنِ الْمُسَيَّبِ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، قَالَ لَمَّا حَضَرَتْ أَبَا طَالِبٍ الْوَفَاةُ دَخَلَ عَلَيْهِ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَعِنْدَهُ أَبُو جَهْلٍ وَعَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ أَبِي أُمَيَّةَ، فَقَالَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏"‏ أَىْ عَمِّ قُلْ لاَ إِلَهَ إِلاَّ اللَّهُ‏.‏ أُحَاجُّ لَكَ بِهَا عِنْدَ اللَّهِ ‏"‏‏.‏ فَقَالَ أَبُو جَهْلٍ وَعَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ أَبِي أُمَيَّةَ يَا أَبَا طَالِبٍ، أَتَرْغَبُ عَنْ مِلَّةِ عَبْدِ الْمُطَّلِبِ‏.‏ فَقَالَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏"‏ لأَسْتَغْفِرَنَّ لَكَ مَا لَمْ أُنْهَ عَنْكَ ‏"‏‏.‏ فَنَزَلَتْ ‏{‏مَا كَانَ لِلنَّبِيِّ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَنْ يَسْتَغْفِرُوا لِلْمُشْرِكِينَ وَلَوْ كَانُوا أُولِي قُرْبَى مِنْ بَعْدِ مَا تَبَيَّنَ لَهُمْ أَنَّهُمْ أَصْحَابُ الْجَحِيمِ‏}

When Abu Talib's death approached, the Prophet (SAWAS) went to him while Abu Jahl and `Abdullah bin Abi Umaiya were present with him. The Prophet (SAWAS) said, "O uncle, say: None has the right to be worshipped except Allah, so that I may argue for your case with it before Allah." On that, Abu Jahl and `Abdullah bin Abu Umaiya said, "O Abu Talib! Do you want to renounce `Abdul Muttalib's religion?" Then the Prophet said, "I will keep on asking (Allah for) forgiveness for you unless I am forbidden to do so." 

THEN THERE WAS REVEALED :-- 'It is not fitting for the Prophet (SAWAS ) and those who believe that they should invoke (Allah) for forgiveness for pagans even though they be of kin, after it has become clear to them that they are companions of the Fire.' (9.113)

Sahih Bukhari

Hope this answers your query brother.

Mind = blown, thanks for this bro.

Off topic, I was led under the impression that Shia do not believe Abu Talib died beleiving in his prior pagan faith and converted?

It's interesting because there are these guys out there calling themselves submitters who say the last two surahs of surah 9 were fabricated ( I have no comment or opinion on that, just noticing the coincidence ).

Aside all that I'd like to see sunni scholar rationale from this.

 

 

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5 hours ago, BackwardsForwards said:

no offense, but every sunni i know who takes a deep, hard look at their own hadith collections finds himself/herself super confused as to what is going on - especially when they get to the part where the Prophet's (pbuh) 'favourite wife' talks about semen stains on his clothes and how he stood for salaat with semen on his shirt. 

If that doesn't disgust you, then I don't know what to tell you, akhi. It kills me to type this out. It makes me want to die to even distantly link the best of creation (peace and blessings on him and his family) which such garbage. 

WOAAA

The hadith doesn't say that at all brother, and I'm not even sunni, Here:

Sahih Muslim - 2:572

Abdullah b. Shihab al-Khaulani reported: I stayed in the house of 'A'isha and had a wet dream (and perceived its effect on my garment), so (in the morning) I dipped both (the clothes) in water. This (act of mine) was watched by a maid-servant of A'isha and she informed her. She (Hadrat A'isha) sent me a message: Whatprompted you to act like this with your clothes? He (the narrator) said: I told that I saw in a dream what a sleeper sees. She said: Did you find (any mark of the fluid) on your clothes? I said: No. She said: Had you found anything you should have washed it. Incase I found that (semen) on the garment of the Messenger of Allah (Peace be upon him) dried up, I scraped it off with my nails.

وَحَدَّثَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ جَوَّاسٍ الْحَنَفِيُّ أَبُو عَاصِمٍ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو الأَحْوَصِ، عَنْ شَبِيبِ بْنِ غَرْقَدَةَ، عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ شِهَابٍ الْخَوْلاَنِيِّ، قَالَ كُنْتُ نَازِلاً عَلَى عَائِشَةَ فَاحْتَلَمْتُ فِي ثَوْبَىَّ فَغَمَسْتُهُمَا فِي الْمَاءِ فَرَأَتْنِي جَارِيَةٌ لِعَائِشَةَ فَأَخْبَرَتْهَا فَبَعَثَتْ إِلَىَّ عَائِشَةُ فَقَالَتْ مَا حَمَلَكَ عَلَى مَا صَنَعْتَ بِثَوْبَيْكَ قَالَ قُلْتُ رَأَيْتُ مَا يَرَى النَّائِمُ فِي مَنَامِهِ ‏.‏ قَالَتْ هَلْ رَأَيْتَ فِيهِمَا شَيْئًا ‏.‏ قُلْتُ لاَ ‏.‏ قَالَتْ فَلَوْ رَأَيْتَ شَيْئًا غَسَلْتَهُ لَقَدْ رَأَيْتُنِي وَإِنِّي لأَحُكُّهُ مِنْ ثَوْبِ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم يَابِسًا بِظُفُرِي ‏.‏

The sunnis consider the above Hadith as Sahih, the other supporting ones are below.

Book 002, Number 0570:

'Amr b. Maimun said: I asked Sulaiman b. Yasir whether the semen that gets on to the garment of a person should be washed or not. He replied: A'isha told me: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) washed the semen, and then went out for prayer in that very garment and I saw the mark of washing on it.

Emphasis above on the "Washing" part, as that means it was cleaned off.   The Prophet SAW lived a humble life and didn't buy 100s of exuberant garments to change into or cycle into all the time.  It happened from when he was sleeping, which happens to many individuals randomly out of pure innocence.

ook 002, Number 0571:

Abu Kuraib, Ibn al-Mubarak, Ibn Abu Za'ida all of them narrated from Amr b. Maimun with the same chain of transmitters. Ibn Abu Za'ida narrated as was transmitted from Ibn Bishr that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) washed semen, and in the hadith transmitted on the authority of Ibn Mabarak and Abdul Wahid the words are:" She (A'isha) reported: I used to wash it from the garment of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him)."

Book 002, Number 0568:

Qutaiba b. Sa'id, Ishaq b. Ibrahim, Ibn Abi 'Aruba, Abu Ma'shar, Abu Bakr b. Abu Shaiba, Mansur and Mughira have all transmitted from Ibrahim, who transmitted it on the authority of A'isha's narration pertaining to the scraping off of the (drop) of semen from the garment of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) like the hadith of Khalid on the authority of Abu Ma'shar.

I can tell you with 100% certainty as I've read these myself, that the Sunni's don't believe nor have in their Hadith that the prophet SAW prayed with Semen Stains on his shirt, and  Shame on you! For not having the wit/sincerity to follow up to verify this and let a slanderous assumption take grasp of you.  I pray that you do apologize and hope that you will be careful in the future from now on brother.  Nowhere in these Hadith's does it imply that the Prophet SAW (God forgive me for even saying) would leave such fluids on his garment while in Salah, and nor do any Knowledgeable Sunni's believe that.

When people try to say things seemingly bad of Shia  I always make sure that what they're saying is verifiable or undeniably gossip/slander from baseless conjecture, and the same goes for the Sunni's. 

Edited by wmehar2

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18 hours ago, goldenhawk said:

Salam brother. I don't think you have isolated cases of contradictions. You want me to give you some more?

Did i say that prophet (sawas) contradicted himself? I blamed your narrators for these contractions in your sahih books. Also, if bukhari knew that the correct number of wives was 90, then why did he take the other narrations which mentioned a different number? Did he not realize this or was he was collecting wrong information deliberately? Either way, you have dug a hole for yourself.

So now you have admitted that narrators do make mistakes even in your sahih books. This causes further problems because now we cannot be 100% certain on these narrators that make mistakes because if someone makes mistake just once, then his credibility is in question and we have no guarantee he will not make further mistakes again.

Let's take the example of hazrat Aisha. She is one of the top 5 highest narrators. You call her "sadiqa" the truthful. However Allah and Bukhari call her a liar and yet you take so many narrations from her and accept them without question. 

Therefore i'lm rijal in sunnism has major flaws. This is why the shias say only Quran is 100% prefect and everything else is down to scrutiny. 

 

 

Goldenhawk, it is good that you are aware of the difference. Indeed, there are mistakes in Sunni books and they are due to the narrators. This is the position of Sunni scholars. 

The Shia scholars do not hold such a position about the contradictions in the hadiths of the Imams. The finger is not pointed to the narrators, but it is pointed to the Imam. Once again, I repeat that this was the case with four volumes of contradictions.

Your rationale about Aisha (ra) is a strange one. You are turning your back against all the prophetic hadiths because you do not like a companion. A more rational approach would be to accept prophetic hadiths that are narrated by other companions and to turn your back to Aisha (ra) alone. 

The same can be said about Abu Huraira (ra). If you do not like Abu Huraira (ra), it is not an excuse to turn against all the prophetic hadith. A rational reaction would be to accept hadiths from other companions and to reject Abu Huraira (ra) alone. 

 

 

I am saddened that the majority of the posts in this thread have nothing to do with the topic. I also noticed that some posts are emotionally driven and are directed at me instead of focusing on the topic. 

I will repeat my questions again.

 

Why follow a sect that has relatively no prophetic hadiths? Why follow a sect in which you do not have the ability to know what the Imams taught? Sunnis have volumes of prophetic hadiths. We also have many narrations from Ahl Al Bayt, and they do not contain contradictions. 

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Say: "No reward do I ask of you for this except to be kind to me for my kinship with you.'') means, `say, O Muhammad, to these idolators among the disbeliever of Quraysh: I do not ask you for anything in return for this message and sincere advice which I bring to you. All I ask of you is that you withhold your evil from me and let me convey the Messages of my Lord. If you will not help me, then do not disturb me, for the sake of the ties of kinship that exist between you and I.' Al-Bukhari recorded that Ibn `Abbas, may Allah be pleased with him, was asked about the Ayah:

﴿إِلاَّ الْمَوَدَّةَ فِى الْقُرْبَى﴾

(except to be kind to me for my kinship with you.) Sa`id bin Jubayr said, "To be kind to the family of Muhammad.'' Ibn `Abbas said, "No, you have jumped to a hasty conclusion. There was no clan among Quraysh to whom the Prophet did not have some ties of kinship.'' Ibn `Abbas said, "Except that you uphold the ties of kinship that exist between me and you.'' This was recorded by Al-Bukhari. It was also recorded by Imam Ahmad with a different chain of narration.

From Tafsir Ibn Kathir

 

Salam,

Two things we can conclude from this.

1) Even some Arab companions from that time translated it with Ahl Al-Bayt a.s.

2) So the concept of was present at that time.

Now, Ibn kathir ofcourse did not support this concept and argumented it away but to me this actually is a proof that this was e very strong opinion rooted in that time and not invented later on.

And as we all know that there was a centuries long campaign against the Ahl Al Bayt a.s. going on I actually believe the opinion of Sa`id bin Jubayr or whoever had claimed this to be true.
 

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It all jots down to One thing and that is the Quran al Kerim.

We will discuss Bukhari, Muslim and also Al Kafi and Man Laa later on

I just want to state this fact that there have been a geeration of shi'a scholars who believed in Tahreef of Quran al Kerim in words and texts.

Ihtijaaj al Tabrisi is an example so is writing of Al Majlisi and Mufeed and others.

If you all quote hadith e Thaqalain wherein you forget Thaqalain al Akbar is Quran al Kerim as per wordings of Hadith.

And what is your milestone to know the correctness of hadith and saying of ahle bayt a.s as per the words ascribed to Imams it is the Quran and when as per your scholars Quran al Kerim was not free from Tahreef then how will you ever know till Qayamah about a single saying or riwayah!!

The foundation of Shia'sm is shaky and very weak. for their Belief in Quran al Kerim is not as strong and firm as of Ahle Sunnah and foundation of Ahle Sunnah is like steel .

Now Shaykh Saduq, Tusi and many others and Al Khoei who wrote a wonderful book on Preservation of Quran al Kerim have done a great job indeed and i only state why don't we say or a shi'a states that anyone who believs in Tahreef is Kafir. Your whole generation of scholars become Kafir then.

Now for Ahadith i will be honest We find a world of difference in narrations by Shaykh Saduq and Kulayni.  Khoei took out lot of extremely weak narrations from Al kafi a job which before Khoei no one ever did and unflincinghly relied on every narration proves big defeciency is science of hadith in shia other than Tusi and other handful we do not find any name.

Whereas the foundation of Ilm e Rijaal and Usool of Hadith in Ahle Sunnah is like steel from Men like Imam Bukhari, Imam Nasai, Muslim, Ibn Majah, Tirmidhi, Ahmed bin Hanbal and thousands of others. no comparisoon indeed.

Now there are many parelles to narrations in Shia and Sunni and i believe someone should compile books on Similar Narrations of Ahadith i believe they would run in volumes. That would be a Hujjah for all indeed.

And if common narrations are relied upon then the Madhab of Ahle Sunnah will be more apparent than present Shi'a.

In matters of Tawhid and Bida'h the narrations like not having any pictures, no structures over graves, no inheritence of Wirasah e Ambiyaa a.s, Fazail e Sahaba r.a, Fazail e Jamaah, Quran al Kerim's Hifz and Study, no beating oneself in grief and no Sujood to Ghairullah, no Istighasah of Ghairullah,and no lighting upon graves( they were all done by Kings and not scholars)

All this will rather make one all like "Salafi/Wahhabi" people!!  Eitherways all roads lead to Tawhid and staying away from bidah and holding fast unto Sunnah and loving Ahle Bayt and the companions of Prophet (Salllahu alayhi wasallam)

If you want these narrations and parallels

Just open Man Laa Yazhirul Faqih and Open Sihah Sittah and you will find the answer.

Wallahi now who has excuses of innovations.

In matters of Tawhid other than barelwi Ahle Sunnah are very staunch in matters of implementing Sunnah as well and we all love All members of Prophet's family and all his wives and all children not only children of Imam Hussain a.s but also of Imam Hasan a.s and all their descendents.

We honor Zaid ibn Ali a.s something which was made clear by Shaykh Saduq alone. But you have removed him as just "uncle" and not an imam of Ahle Bayt.

I just wanted to state this.

In Iraq we see people doing acts of Shirk there in Najaf and Iran surely these acts other than visiting the Graves of Ahle Bayt and presenting Salaam are all baatil and Hujjah of Quran al kerim , Confirmed Sunnah of both Sunni wal Shia is against you.

Taufa e Ithna Ashari
Ayat o Bayyinaat
and i mostly recommend reading Tasfiya ma Bayn shia wal Sunnah by pir Meher Ali Shah

Books of Mawlana Qasim Nanotwi are also beautifully written.

But books written by Pir Meher Ali Shah and Qadhi Yusuf Nabahani i believe will impact Shi'a more .
Wasalaam

'Abdul Haleem

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16 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

Wouldn't have it been redundant and literally pointless logically for the Prophet SAW to gather everyone around and say hey guys, this cousin/son in law of mine, is your friend.. in case you already didn't know.

Tell me what significance would that bring?  I'm not a Shia', but even that much is pretty obvious to me contextually.  You don't gather everyone around to tell them the obvious, guys 'Ali is my friend, so he's yours too if he isn't already.................................

Seriously?

Lets take this up a notch,  what are we (the ummah) to the Prophet SAW?  Are we his friends?  or is he our Prophet and leader?  Whatever us humans/ummah are to the Prophet, surely it extends beyond friendship as we also must heed his advice/message and command.

I'll add that maybe the mawla line wasn't as specific enough though, because in the end, the Prophet SAW wanted to bring clarity with the pen, to which he was denied as I mentioned earlier, before his death.

But if the Prophet SAW meant "friend" as the meaning of "mawla", or ally, and then he say's the type of ally the Prophet SAW is to the people, 'Ali is to you, doesn't that still mean something significant?

But what ended up happening anyway?   Jerks like Muawiyah fought him, made his son Hasan give up, and then the Umayyads made it policy to curse Imam 'Ali in prayers and in public for 60 years, does it sound like he was treated like a "friend", or "ally"?

It wasn't until the final Umayyad Caliph, Umar II (Umar ibn Abd al Aziz)'s time, when that was repealed and other reforms were made to destabilize the Umayyads and rule for the people (ironic that the last Umayyad ruler was a good guy that undoes the dynasty XD)

It was the soldiers complaining its that simple 

mawla was love for Ali ra........why do you skip over the soldiers and straight jump on self made conclusion on ghadeer being an appointment of some kinda leadership?

like I said .......its that simple 

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4 hours ago, Wisdom007 said:

It was the soldiers complaining its that simple 

mawla was love for Ali ra........why do you skip over the soldiers and straight jump on self made conclusion on ghadeer being an appointment of some kinda leadership?

like I said .......its that simple 

Eh I don't know for certain if Ghadeer was 100% intended for leadership appointment, because I wasn't there.  But if the Sunni and Shia share the similar narrative in what was send Regarding Imam 'Ali AS/RA, then I don't believe it compromises ones sectarian affinity if they happen to believe he should have been the first Khalifa.

There are in existence many pro Alid, Sunni scholars in agreement. Debates/differences in Order and Who is the Khalifa, doesn't have much bearing on one's Islam in my opinion, especially if history is that much shrouded in controversy.

 

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10 hours ago, submitter71 said:

Your rationale about Aisha (ra) is a strange one. You are turning your back against all the prophetic hadiths because you do not like a companion. A more rational approach would be to accept prophetic hadiths that are narrated by other companions and to turn your back to Aisha (ra) alone. 

I agree with you brother. However, I don't think you understand my point. Let me try to explain again:

I am not turning my back against any prophetic hadith provided that it is correct. Believe it or not, I like a lot of hadith that comes your books and I think there is nothing wrong with a lot of narrations from sahih sitta. However, I am turning by back on those that are not trustworthy. Allah and bukhari clearly state hazrat aisha is not trustworthy but you think you know better.

Therefore, unfortunately, I would be turning my back on over 2,000 hadith from hazrat aisha. Then I have other companions like abu hurairah who can't be trusted either. I believe he narrated just over 5,000 hadith and I can't fully rely upon him either. Unfortunately, just from these two persons (not going to mention abdullah ibn umar just yet due to his love and allegiance for yazid according to bukhari), I will be rejecting most of the narrations from your sahih book.

Edited by goldenhawk

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28 minutes ago, goldenhawk said:

Allah and bukhari clearly state hazrat aisha is not trustworthy but you think you know better.

Allah literally says in the quran that ammi jaan aisha betrayed the prophets trust and revealed his secrets. 

shia say, this means that she is clearly not trust worthy

sunni say, mashallah @ her teaching adult men how to do ghusl by giving a live demonstration *kisses fingers then touches eyes* 

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5 minutes ago, DigitalUmmah said:

Allah literally says in the quran that ammi jaan aisha betrayed the prophets trust and revealed his secrets. 

shia say, this means that she is clearly not trust worthy

sunni say, mashallah @ her teaching adult men how to do ghusl by giving a live demonstration *kisses fingers then touches eyes* 

Excellent point lol

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4 hours ago, Wisdom007 said:

It was the soldiers complaining its that simple 

Another attempt to hide the truth by using excuses of the soldiers. Two key points what many sunni's fail to answer properly and come with more silly answers

Firstly, this issue (soldiers/sahaba complaining) was dealt with during the farewell hajj. Show me one authentic narration where these soldiers/sahabas continued to complain on the way back to medina to make the holy prophet (sawas) stop at khum ghadir to tell everyone that ali is his "friend".

Secondly, let's suppose for one moment, it is true, then why stop and trouble the thousands of other people, who had nothing to do with the issue, and tell them about this matter when it didn't concern them! Why not address only those who were responsibility or wait until Medina and address them there in their home town. I can't wait for more excuses now to start flying in !

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18 minutes ago, goldenhawk said:

Secondly, let's suppose for one moment, it is true, then why stop and trouble the thousands of other people, who had nothing to do with the issue, and tell them about this matter when it didn't concern them! Why not address only those who were responsibility or wait until Medina and address them there in their home town. I can't wait for more excuses now to start flying in !

sunnis are not interested in truth, they are interested in winning debates. if they were interested in truth, they would already be shia

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2 hours ago, goldenhawk said:

Another attempt to hide the truth by using excuses of the soldiers. Two key points what many sunni's fail to answer properly and come with more silly answers

Firstly, this issue (soldiers/sahaba complaining) was dealt with during the farewell hajj. Show me one authentic narration where these soldiers/sahabas continued to complain on the way back to medina to make the holy prophet (sawas) stop at khum ghadir to tell everyone that ali is his "friend".

Secondly, let's suppose for one moment, it is true, then why stop and trouble the thousands of other people, who had nothing to do with the issue, and tell them about this matter when it didn't concern them! Why not address only those who were responsibility or wait until Medina and address them there in their home town. I can't wait for more excuses now to start flying in !

Try ibn katheer ra or ibn ishaaq ra you will get full story.........not selected parts that appeal to your wishful thinking

ermm......it wasn't ALL Muslims it was them who were travelling back to their homes after hajj (medina etc) not the ones from Yemen etc

its a tad bit wierd don't say nothing at hajj when ALL the Muslims are together but.........say something bout leadership miles away, just the ones travelling to medina, at a watering hole??

that doesn't even sound right

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4 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

Eh I don't know for certain if Ghadeer was 100% intended for leadership appointment, because I wasn't there.  But if the Sunni and Shia share the similar narrative in what was send Regarding Imam 'Ali AS/RA, then I don't believe it compromises ones sectarian affinity if they happen to believe he should have been the first Khalifa.

There are in existence many pro Alid, Sunni scholars in agreement. Debates/differences in Order and Who is the Khalifa, doesn't have much bearing on one's Islam in my opinion, especially if history is that much shrouded in controversy.

 

If you don't know then it's better to keep quiet bro

thanx

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3 hours ago, goldenhawk said:

I agree with you brother. However, I don't think you understand my point. Let me try to explain again:

I am not turning my back against any prophetic hadith provided that it is correct. Believe it or not, I like a lot of hadith that comes your books and I think there is nothing wrong with a lot of narrations from sahih sitta. However, I am turning by back on those that are not trustworthy. Allah and bukhari clearly state hazrat aisha is not trustworthy but you think you know better.

Therefore, unfortunately, I would be turning my back on over 2,000 hadith from hazrat aisha. Then I have other companions like abu hurairah who can't be trusted either. I believe he narrated just over 5,000 hadith and I can't fully rely upon him either. Unfortunately, just from these two persons (not going to mention abdullah ibn umar just yet due to his love and allegiance for yazid according to bukhari), I will be rejecting most of the narrations from your sahih book.

 

This is a good start. There is no doubt that Aisha (ra), Ibn Umar (ra), and Abu Huraira (ra) are the from the top hadith narrators in Sunni books. However, I am sure that you know that there is a thousand other companions that narrated hadiths. If you are at the point in which you accept the narrations of others, then this is a step in the right direction. May Allah guide you to His path.

 

7 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

This has been answered multiple times yet you keep repeating. 

So now I have concluded you are either a chat bot or pursuing the Donald Trump strategy, i.e. if you keep repeating something enough times, maybe you will get a few people to believe it is true even if it's not. 

 

 

Seriously? Most of the posts in this thread had nothing to do with my questions. Perhaps you could point me in the right direction by telling me which post answers my second question. 

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16 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

WOAAA

The hadith doesn't say that at all brother, and I'm not even sunni, Here:

Sahih Muslim - 2:572

Abdullah b. Shihab al-Khaulani reported: I stayed in the house of 'A'isha and had a wet dream (and perceived its effect on my garment), so (in the morning) I dipped both (the clothes) in water. This (act of mine) was watched by a maid-servant of A'isha and she informed her. She (Hadrat A'isha) sent me a message: Whatprompted you to act like this with your clothes? He (the narrator) said: I told that I saw in a dream what a sleeper sees. She said: Did you find (any mark of the fluid) on your clothes? I said: No. She said: Had you found anything you should have washed it. Incase I found that (semen) on the garment of the Messenger of Allah (Peace be upon him) dried up, I scraped it off with my nails.

وَحَدَّثَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ جَوَّاسٍ الْحَنَفِيُّ أَبُو عَاصِمٍ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو الأَحْوَصِ، عَنْ شَبِيبِ بْنِ غَرْقَدَةَ، عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ شِهَابٍ الْخَوْلاَنِيِّ، قَالَ كُنْتُ نَازِلاً عَلَى عَائِشَةَ فَاحْتَلَمْتُ فِي ثَوْبَىَّ فَغَمَسْتُهُمَا فِي الْمَاءِ فَرَأَتْنِي جَارِيَةٌ لِعَائِشَةَ فَأَخْبَرَتْهَا فَبَعَثَتْ إِلَىَّ عَائِشَةُ فَقَالَتْ مَا حَمَلَكَ عَلَى مَا صَنَعْتَ بِثَوْبَيْكَ قَالَ قُلْتُ رَأَيْتُ مَا يَرَى النَّائِمُ فِي مَنَامِهِ ‏.‏ قَالَتْ هَلْ رَأَيْتَ فِيهِمَا شَيْئًا ‏.‏ قُلْتُ لاَ ‏.‏ قَالَتْ فَلَوْ رَأَيْتَ شَيْئًا غَسَلْتَهُ لَقَدْ رَأَيْتُنِي وَإِنِّي لأَحُكُّهُ مِنْ ثَوْبِ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم يَابِسًا بِظُفُرِي ‏.‏

The sunnis consider the above Hadith as Sahih, the other supporting ones are below.

Book 002, Number 0570:

'Amr b. Maimun said: I asked Sulaiman b. Yasir whether the semen that gets on to the garment of a person should be washed or not. He replied: A'isha told me: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) washed the semen, and then went out for prayer in that very garment and I saw the mark of washing on it.

Emphasis above on the "Washing" part, as that means it was cleaned off.   The Prophet SAW lived a humble life and didn't buy 100s of exuberant garments to change into or cycle into all the time.  It happened from when he was sleeping, which happens to many individuals randomly out of pure innocence.

ook 002, Number 0571:

Abu Kuraib, Ibn al-Mubarak, Ibn Abu Za'ida all of them narrated from Amr b. Maimun with the same chain of transmitters. Ibn Abu Za'ida narrated as was transmitted from Ibn Bishr that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) washed semen, and in the hadith transmitted on the authority of Ibn Mabarak and Abdul Wahid the words are:" She (A'isha) reported: I used to wash it from the garment of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him)."

Book 002, Number 0568:

Qutaiba b. Sa'id, Ishaq b. Ibrahim, Ibn Abi 'Aruba, Abu Ma'shar, Abu Bakr b. Abu Shaiba, Mansur and Mughira have all transmitted from Ibrahim, who transmitted it on the authority of A'isha's narration pertaining to the scraping off of the (drop) of semen from the garment of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) like the hadith of Khalid on the authority of Abu Ma'shar.

I can tell you with 100% certainty as I've read these myself, that the Sunni's don't believe nor have in their Hadith that the prophet SAW prayed with Semen Stains on his shirt, and  Shame on you! For not having the wit/sincerity to follow up to verify this and let a slanderous assumption take grasp of you.  I pray that you do apologize and hope that you will be careful in the future from now on brother.  Nowhere in these Hadith's does it imply that the Prophet SAW (God forgive me for even saying) would leave such fluids on his garment while in Salah, and nor do any Knowledgeable Sunni's believe that.

When people try to say things seemingly bad of Shia  I always make sure that what they're saying is verifiable or undeniably gossip/slander from baseless conjecture, and the same goes for the Sunni's. 

Salaam Brother. Let me start by saying that I quoted no hadith. The one you offered is but one of many.

Here is the Hadith in Question:

Narrated 'Aisha: I used to wash the semen off the clothes of the Prophet and even then I used to notice one or more spots on them.  (Bukhari, book #4, Hadith #233)

And:

Sahih Muslim Hadith 566 Narrated by Aisha

When I saw (dried) semen on the garment of the Messenger of Allah (saws), I simply scraped it off, and he (saws) offered prayer while wearing those garments.

Lets not get carried away here. That clearly says there were spots on them, though i am willing to entertain they were water spots from washing (which is also strange, but w/e), the Sahih Muslim one is clear. Unless you believe that scratching out semen can clean a garnent (it cant, seminal fluid, like most fluids, will leave a residue), we are left with a hadith that says the Prophet(pbuh) prayed with semen on his shirt. 

And I do not slander. This isnt a false accusation. The Hadith books of Sunnis slander the Prophet (pbuh) all on their own.

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2 hours ago, Wisdom007 said:

If you don't know then it's better to keep quiet bro

thanx

I don't think anyone here knows anything for certain.  Faith, is called faith for a reason . In fact most of everyone here gets their information and makes inferences based of scholarly opinion or sources other than their own after upon which synthesizing that information represent their perception, so how would anyone here be different?

This an online forum, not a some formal debate with high tier scholars.

It's for laymens, experts, beginners  etc. alike to bounce opinions and reflect and exchange ideas.

Keep your non productive (arguably perceivingly rude comments) to yourself perhaps?

"thanx"

My responses theme was that it's highly indicative that there's more premier to Ghadeer than just some nominal "Respect this guy, or he's your friend/ally".  As others here are expressing.  Though I personally feel  i cant assert Ghadeers intended purpose because I was not there and that I don't  characterize   my faith by a choice of vote that I didn't have 1400 years ago.

And by Sunni foundation, who they think should have been Khalifa isn't some damning/kufr event that will compromise them being sunni.  Which is why I place emphasis that whoever thinks Imam ' Ali should be Khalifa as a Sunni, isn't a identity compromise.  

Which then leads to,  what are you (speaking generally here to average Sunni) afraid of, should you believe it be true that the prophet SAW did intend for Imam Ali Ibn Abi Talib to be Khalifa? 

 

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14 hours ago, Abdul Haleem said:

It all jots down to One thing and that is the Quran al Kerim.

We will discuss Bukhari, Muslim and also Al Kafi and Man Laa later on

I just want to state this fact that there have been a geeration of shi'a scholars who believed in Tahreef of Quran al Kerim in words and texts.

Ihtijaaj al Tabrisi is an example so is writing of Al Majlisi and Mufeed and others.

If you all quote hadith e Thaqalain wherein you forget Thaqalain al Akbar is Quran al Kerim as per wordings of Hadith.

And what is your milestone to know the correctness of hadith and saying of ahle bayt a.s as per the words ascribed to Imams it is the Quran and when as per your scholars Quran al Kerim was not free from Tahreef then how will you ever know till Qayamah about a single saying or riwayah!!

The foundation of Shia'sm is shaky and very weak. for their Belief in Quran al Kerim is not as strong and firm as of Ahle Sunnah and foundation of Ahle Sunnah is like steel .

Now Shaykh Saduq, Tusi and many others and Al Khoei who wrote a wonderful book on Preservation of Quran al Kerim have done a great job indeed and i only state why don't we say or a shi'a states that anyone who believs in Tahreef is Kafir. Your whole generation of scholars become Kafir then.

Now for Ahadith i will be honest We find a world of difference in narrations by Shaykh Saduq and Kulayni.  Khoei took out lot of extremely weak narrations from Al kafi a job which before Khoei no one ever did and unflincinghly relied on every narration proves big defeciency is science of hadith in shia other than Tusi and other handful we do not find any name.

Whereas the foundation of Ilm e Rijaal and Usool of Hadith in Ahle Sunnah is like steel from Men like Imam Bukhari, Imam Nasai, Muslim, Ibn Majah, Tirmidhi, Ahmed bin Hanbal and thousands of others. no comparisoon indeed.

Now there are many parelles to narrations in Shia and Sunni and i believe someone should compile books on Similar Narrations of Ahadith i believe they would run in volumes. That would be a Hujjah for all indeed.

And if common narrations are relied upon then the Madhab of Ahle Sunnah will be more apparent than present Shi'a.

In matters of Tawhid and Bida'h the narrations like not having any pictures, no structures over graves, no inheritence of Wirasah e Ambiyaa a.s, Fazail e Sahaba r.a, Fazail e Jamaah, Quran al Kerim's Hifz and Study, no beating oneself in grief and no Sujood to Ghairullah, no Istighasah of Ghairullah,and no lighting upon graves( they were all done by Kings and not scholars)

All this will rather make one all like "Salafi/Wahhabi" people!!  Eitherways all roads lead to Tawhid and staying away from bidah and holding fast unto Sunnah and loving Ahle Bayt and the companions of Prophet (Salllahu alayhi wasallam)

If you want these narrations and parallels

Just open Man Laa Yazhirul Faqih and Open Sihah Sittah and you will find the answer.

Wallahi now who has excuses of innovations.

In matters of Tawhid other than barelwi Ahle Sunnah are very staunch in matters of implementing Sunnah as well and we all love All members of Prophet's family and all his wives and all children not only children of Imam Hussain a.s but also of Imam Hasan a.s and all their descendents.

We honor Zaid ibn Ali a.s something which was made clear by Shaykh Saduq alone. But you have removed him as just "uncle" and not an imam of Ahle Bayt.

I just wanted to state this.

In Iraq we see people doing acts of Shirk there in Najaf and Iran surely these acts other than visiting the Graves of Ahle Bayt and presenting Salaam are all baatil and Hujjah of Quran al kerim , Confirmed Sunnah of both Sunni wal Shia is against you.

Taufa e Ithna Ashari
Ayat o Bayyinaat
and i mostly recommend reading Tasfiya ma Bayn shia wal Sunnah by pir Meher Ali Shah

Books of Mawlana Qasim Nanotwi are also beautifully written.

But books written by Pir Meher Ali Shah and Qadhi Yusuf Nabahani i believe will impact Shi'a more .
Wasalaam

'Abdul Haleem

The above thread was started by me with my other nick Theocratic. 

For more

http://www.shiapen.com/comprehensive/tahreef/sunni-reports-deletions-quran.html

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15 hours ago, Abdul Haleem said:

It all jots down to One thing and that is the Quran al Kerim.

We will discuss Bukhari, Muslim and also Al Kafi and Man Laa later on

I just want to state this fact that there have been a geeration of shi'a scholars who believed in Tahreef of Quran al Kerim in words and texts.

Ihtijaaj al Tabrisi is an example so is writing of Al Majlisi and Mufeed and others.

If you all quote hadith e Thaqalain wherein you forget Thaqalain al Akbar is Quran al Kerim as per wordings of Hadith.

And what is your milestone to know the correctness of hadith and saying of ahle bayt a.s as per the words ascribed to Imams it is the Quran and when as per your scholars Quran al Kerim was not free from Tahreef then how will you ever know till Qayamah about a single saying or riwayah!!

The foundation of Shia'sm is shaky and very weak. for their Belief in Quran al Kerim is not as strong and firm as of Ahle Sunnah and foundation of Ahle Sunnah is like steel .

Now Shaykh Saduq, Tusi and many others and Al Khoei who wrote a wonderful book on Preservation of Quran al Kerim have done a great job indeed and i only state why don't we say or a shi'a states that anyone who believs in Tahreef is Kafir. Your whole generation of scholars become Kafir then.

Now for Ahadith i will be honest We find a world of difference in narrations by Shaykh Saduq and Kulayni.  Khoei took out lot of extremely weak narrations from Al kafi a job which before Khoei no one ever did and unflincinghly relied on every narration proves big defeciency is science of hadith in shia other than Tusi and other handful we do not find any name.

Whereas the foundation of Ilm e Rijaal and Usool of Hadith in Ahle Sunnah is like steel from Men like Imam Bukhari, Imam Nasai, Muslim, Ibn Majah, Tirmidhi, Ahmed bin Hanbal and thousands of others. no comparisoon indeed.

Now there are many parelles to narrations in Shia and Sunni and i believe someone should compile books on Similar Narrations of Ahadith i believe they would run in volumes. That would be a Hujjah for all indeed.

And if common narrations are relied upon then the Madhab of Ahle Sunnah will be more apparent than present Shi'a.

In matters of Tawhid and Bida'h the narrations like not having any pictures, no structures over graves, no inheritence of Wirasah e Ambiyaa a.s, Fazail e Sahaba r.a, Fazail e Jamaah, Quran al Kerim's Hifz and Study, no beating oneself in grief and no Sujood to Ghairullah, no Istighasah of Ghairullah,and no lighting upon graves( they were all done by Kings and not scholars)

All this will rather make one all like "Salafi/Wahhabi" people!!  Eitherways all roads lead to Tawhid and staying away from bidah and holding fast unto Sunnah and loving Ahle Bayt and the companions of Prophet (Salllahu alayhi wasallam)

If you want these narrations and parallels

Just open Man Laa Yazhirul Faqih and Open Sihah Sittah and you will find the answer.

Wallahi now who has excuses of innovations.

In matters of Tawhid other than barelwi Ahle Sunnah are very staunch in matters of implementing Sunnah as well and we all love All members of Prophet's family and all his wives and all children not only children of Imam Hussain a.s but also of Imam Hasan a.s and all their descendents.

We honor Zaid ibn Ali a.s something which was made clear by Shaykh Saduq alone. But you have removed him as just "uncle" and not an imam of Ahle Bayt.

I just wanted to state this.

In Iraq we see people doing acts of Shirk there in Najaf and Iran surely these acts other than visiting the Graves of Ahle Bayt and presenting Salaam are all baatil and Hujjah of Quran al kerim , Confirmed Sunnah of both Sunni wal Shia is against you.

Taufa e Ithna Ashari
Ayat o Bayyinaat
and i mostly recommend reading Tasfiya ma Bayn shia wal Sunnah by pir Meher Ali Shah

Books of Mawlana Qasim Nanotwi are also beautifully written.

But books written by Pir Meher Ali Shah and Qadhi Yusuf Nabahani i believe will impact Shi'a more .
Wasalaam

'Abdul Haleem

As mentioned in the other post, Aisha believed tahreef because she let a goat eat the verse of adult suckling otherwise it would have been in the Quran.

Caliph Umar feared people otherwie he was going to add the verse of stoning in the Quran.

Per Sunni sources, Allah revealed the Quran in 7 Harf but Caliph Uthman consolidated it into one thereby doing tahreef.

 

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On 10/2/2016 at 1:59 AM, submitter71 said:

As a Sunni, I ask: Why follow a sect that has relatively no prophetic hadiths? Why follow a sect in which you do not have the ability to know what the Imams taught? Sunnis have volumes of prophetic hadiths. We also have many narrations from Ahl Al Bayt, and they do not contain contradictions. 

As a Shia, I ask: Why follow a sect that has large number of fake prophetic traditions? Why follow a sect which talks about genital warts of a Prophet or believes in a Prophet that gets bewitched.

While you may have quantity of hadith, we have the quality hadith. You want to agree that because you have more prophetic traditions, then Sunni must be right. Based on this assumption of majority, there are more Christians therefore they must be right.

Islam has no concept of majority.

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3 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

While you may have quantity of hadith, we have the quality hadith. You want to agree that because you have more prophetic traditions, then Sunni must be right. Based on this assumption of majority, there are more Christians therefore they must be right.

Islam has no concept of majority.

Exactly, the whole world thought the world was flat did that make them right ? The whole world thought the sun revolves around the earth did that it make it true ? 

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5 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

While you may have quantity of hadith, we have the quality hadith. You want to agree that because you have more prophetic traditions, then Sunni must be right.

 

 

This has been answered already. You do not have quality since your narrations keep contradicting each other.

I went through some of Al Kafi just now in order to find narrations about the Prophet's salalahu alaihi wa salam actions and teachings in prayer from the beginning of the Book of Prayer until the Book of Travels. I only found fourteen narrations by him. Most of them were weak according to Shia hadith. 

The authentic ones are narrations that you probably consider narrations of bad quality. They say that he used to say salam to those that say salam to him in prayer. Another says that he made a mistake in prayer. See the chapter named Bab Man Takalam Fee Salatihi. 

 

Ahl Al Sunnah have over a hundred authentic narrations in Saheeh Al Bukhari about how the Prophet salalahu alaihi wa salam prayer. 

I am sorry, but there is not enough in Shia Islam from the Prophet salalahu alaihi wa salam for the religion to be complete. You need to rely on contradicting narrations from his progeny. 

 

 

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On 10/2/2016 at 0:02 PM, Ya_isa (as) said:

Ibn Abbas narrated: When the above verse (42:23) was revealed, the companions asked: "O' the Messenger of Allah! Who are those near kin whose love Allah has made obligatory for us?" Upon that the Prophet (S.A.W.) said: "Ali, Fatimah, and their two sons." He (S.A.W.) repeated this sentence thrice.
Sunni references:
1. Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhr al-Din al-Razi, Part 27, pp 165-166
2. Tafsir al-Tha'labi, under the commentary of verse 42:23 of Quran
3. Tafsir al-Tabari, by Ibn Jarir al-Tabari, under verse 42:23
4. Tafsir al-Qurtubi, under commentary of verse 42:23 of Quran
5. Tafsir al-Kashshaf, by al-Zamakhshari, under commentary of verse 42:23
6. Tafsir al-Baidhawi, under the commentary of verse 42:23 of Quran
7. Tafsir al-Kalbi, under commentary of verse 42:23 of Quran
8. al-Madarik, in connection with verse 42:23
9. Dhakha'ir al-Uqba, by Muhibbuddin al-Tabari, p25
10. Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal,
11. al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar Haythami, Ch. 11, section 1, p259
12. Shawahid al-Tanzeel, Hakim Hasakani, al-Hanafi, v2, p132
13. Many others such as Ibn Abi Hatam, al-Tabarani, etc.
Then the Prophet (S.A.W.) continued:
"Verily Allah has dedicated my wage (of prophethood) to love of my Ahlul-Bayt, and I shall question you about it on the day of judgment."
Sunni references:
· Dhakha'ir al-Uqba, by Muhibbuddin al-Tabari, p26
· al-Sirah, by al-Mala

It was narrated by Tabarani in “al-Kabir”, Qati`y in zawaid to “Fadail sahaba” (#1141):

وفيما كتب إلينا محمد بن عبد الله بن سليمان الحضرمي يذكر ان حرب بن الحسن الطحان حدثهم قال نا حسين الأشقر عن قيس عن الأعمش عن سعيد بن جبير عن بن عباس قال لما نزلت قل لا اسألكم عليه اجرا الا المودة في القربى قالوا : يا رسول الله من قرابتنا هؤلاء الذين وجبت علينا مودتهم قال علي وفاطمة وابناها عليهم السلام

……Harb ibn all-Hasan at-Tahhan – Hussain al-Ashqar – Qays (ibn Rabia) – Al-Amash from Said ibn Jubair – ibn Abbas: When it was revealed verse “No reward do I ask of you for this except the love of those near of kin” (42/23), people asked: O messenger of Allah, who are those from your close family members, whose love became incumbent upon us? He answered: Ali, Fatima, and their sons (alaihuma salam). (cited from Fadail)

This hadith isn’t authentic.

First of all it contradicts to authentic agreed upon narration from ibn Abbas. (see this article)

Second it contradicts to known history facts. Ali and Fatima (may Allah be pleased with them) married after hijra, and this verse was revealed in Mecca, as said ibn Kathir.

Thirdly this chain is extremely weak. Suyuti noticed its weakness in his commentary“Durr al-Mansur”.

1) Harb ibn al-Hasan was weak. See “Majmau zawaid” №14747

2) Hussain al-Ashqar weak. He was criticized by Bukhari, Abu Zurah, Abu Hatim, Nasai and Daraqutni. (“Mizanul itidal” 1/531/№1986)

3) Qays ibn Rabia was weak. He was discredited by Nasai, Daraqutni, Ahmad and ibn Maeen. (“Mizanul itidal” 3/393/№6910)

4) Al-Amash Sulaiman ibn Mihran was thiqat, but known mudalis, and he narrated this in anana form.

Shaikh Albani said this narration is false in “Silsila ad-daefa” (#4974)

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21 hours ago, Wisdom007 said:

Try ibn katheer ra or ibn ishaaq ra you will get full story.........not selected parts that appeal to your wishful thinking

ermm......it wasn't ALL Muslims it was them who were travelling back to their homes after hajj (medina etc) not the ones from Yemen etc

its a tad bit wierd don't say nothing at hajj when ALL the Muslims are together but.........say something bout leadership miles away, just the ones travelling to medina, at a watering hole??

1. Could you please show me this claim from ibn kathir or ibn ishaq, in arabic with a chain, where the soldiers continued to complain to the holy prophet (sawas) on the way back to medina?

2. Actually, there were thousands of muslims from other places at khum ghadir. But for arguments sake, let's suppose you are right that they were from medina or other close areas near by, why did the prophet unnecessarily stop then, and told them that ali was his friend when they had nothing to do with the soldiers issue?!!! Also why did Umar congratulate Ali?

3. Allah decides when and where the message should be given.

وَمَا كَانَ لِمُؤْمِنٍ وَلَا مُؤْمِنَةٍ إِذَا قَضَى اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ أَمْرًا أَن يَكُونَ لَهُمُ الْخِيَرَةُ مِنْ أَمْرِهِمْ ۗ وَمَن يَعْصِ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ فَقَدْ ضَلَّ ضَلَالًا مُّبِينًا

It is not for a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter, that they should [thereafter] have any choice about their affair. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger has certainly strayed into clear error. (Quran, 33:36)

Allah already decided to tell them this message at hajj: 

al-Albani in his Sahih Sunan al-Tirmidhi, Volume 3, page 542, Number 3787 (Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: Maktabah al-Ma’arif; first edition, 1420 H) records:

حدثنا نصر بن عبد الرحمن الكوفي حدثنا زيد بن الحسن – الأنماطي –عن جعفر بن محمد ، عن أبيه ، عن جابر بن عبد الله قال : رأيت رسول الله في حجته يوم عرفة وهو على ناقته القصواء يخطب ، فسمعته يقول : يا أيها الناس إني قد تركت فيكم ما إن أخذتم به لن تضلوا كتاب الله وعترتي أهل بيتي

Narrated Jabir ibn Abdullah al-Ansari, may Allah be pleased with him: "I saw the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, during his hajj pilgrimage on the day of `Arafah. He was seated on his camel, al­-Qaswa, and was delivering a sermon. I heard him say: 'O mankind, verily, I have left among you that which if you hold fast to you shall never go astray: the Book of Allah and my ‘itra, my Ahl al-Bayt."  Shaykh al-Albani says this narration is authentic.

Then Allah tells his prophet to make Ali the mowla of everyone:

يَا أَيُّهَا الرَّسُولُ بَلِّغْ مَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْكَ مِن رَّبِّكَ ۖ وَإِن لَّمْ تَفْعَلْ فَمَا بَلَّغْتَ رِسَالَتَهُ ۚ وَاللَّهُ يَعْصِمُكَ مِنَ النَّاسِ ۗ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يَهْدِي الْقَوْمَ الْكَافِرِينَ

O Messenger, announce that which has been revealed to you from your Lord, and if you do not, then you have not conveyed His message. And Allah will protect you from the people. Indeed, Allah does not guide the disbelieving people. (Quran, 5:67)

Edited by goldenhawk

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9 hours ago, submitter71 said:

Another says that he made a mistake in prayer.

 

Oh! You mean like this mistake?

حَدَّثَنَا عُثْمَانُ، قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا جَرِيرٌ، عَنْ مَنْصُورٍ، عَنْ إِبْرَاهِيمَ، عَنْ عَلْقَمَةَ، قَالَ قَالَ عَبْدُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم ـ قَالَ إِبْرَاهِيمُ لاَ أَدْرِي زَادَ أَوْ نَقَصَ ـ فَلَمَّا سَلَّمَ قِيلَ لَهُ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ، أَحَدَثَ فِي الصَّلاَةِ شَىْءٌ قَالَ ‏"‏ وَمَا ذَاكَ ‏"‏‏.‏ قَالُوا صَلَّيْتَ كَذَا وَكَذَا‏.‏ فَثَنَى رِجْلَيْهِ وَاسْتَقْبَلَ الْقِبْلَةَ، وَسَجَدَ سَجْدَتَيْنِ ثُمَّ سَلَّمَ، فَلَمَّا أَقْبَلَ عَلَيْنَا بِوَجْهِهِ قَالَ ‏"‏ إِنَّهُ لَوْ حَدَثَ فِي الصَّلاَةِ شَىْءٌ لَنَبَّأْتُكُمْ بِهِ، وَلَكِنْ إِنَّمَا أَنَا بَشَرٌ مِثْلُكُمْ، أَنْسَى كَمَا تَنْسَوْنَ، فَإِذَا نَسِيتُ فَذَكِّرُونِي، وَإِذَا شَكَّ أَحَدُكُمْ فِي صَلاَتِهِ فَلْيَتَحَرَّى الصَّوَابَ، فَلْيُتِمَّ عَلَيْهِ ثُمَّ يُسَلِّمْ، ثُمَّ يَسْجُدْ سَجْدَتَيْنِ ‏"‏‏.‏

The Prophet (s) prayed (and the sub-narrator Ibrahim said, "I do not know whether he prayed more or less than usual"), and when he had finished the prayers he was asked, "O Allah's Messenger (s)! Has there been any change in the prayers?" He said, "What is it?' The people said, "You have prayed so much and so much." So the Prophet (s) bent his legs, faced the Qibla and performed two prostration's (of Sahu) and finished his prayers with Taslim (by turning his face to right and left saying: 'As-Salamu `Alaikum- Warahmat-ullah'). When he turned his face to us he said, "If there had been anything changed in the prayer, surely I would have informed you but I am a human being like you and liable to forget like you. So if I forget remind me and if anyone of you is doubtful about his prayer, he should follow what he thinks to be correct and complete his prayer accordingly and finish it and do two prostrations (of Sahu). SAHIH BUKHARI

 

Or do you mean like this mistake?

حَدَّثَنَا عُبَيْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ مُعَاذٍ الْعَنْبَرِيُّ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبِي، حَدَّثَنَا شُعْبَةُ، عَنِ الْحَكَمِ، عَنْ إِبْرَاهِيمَ، عَنْ عَلْقَمَةَ، عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ، أَنَّ النَّبِيَّ صلى الله عليه وسلم صَلَّى الظُّهْرَ خَمْسًا فَلَمَّا سَلَّمَ قِيلَ لَهُ أَزِيدَ فِي الصَّلاَةِ قَالَ ‏ "‏ وَمَا ذَاكَ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالُوا صَلَّيْتَ خَمْسًا ‏.‏ فَسَجَدَ سَجْدَتَيْنِ ‏.‏

The Apostle of Allah (s) said five rak'ahs of the noon prayer and when he completed the prayer, It was said to him: Has there been (commanded) an addition In prayer? He said: What is it? They said: You have said five rak'ahs, so he performed two prostrations. SAHIH MUSLIM

 

Or I think you meant like this mistake?

حَدَّثَنَا عُثْمَانُ بْنُ أَبِي شَيْبَةَ، حَدَّثَنَا جَرِيرٌ، عَنْ مَنْصُورٍ، عَنْ إِبْرَاهِيمَ، عَنْ عَلْقَمَةَ، قَالَ قَالَ عَبْدُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم - قَالَ إِبْرَاهِيمُ فَلاَ أَدْرِي زَادَ أَمْ نَقَصَ - فَلَمَّا سَلَّمَ قِيلَ لَهُ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ أَحَدَثَ فِي الصَّلاَةِ شَىْءٌ ‏.‏ قَالَ ‏"‏ وَمَا ذَاكَ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالُوا صَلَّيْتَ كَذَا وَكَذَا ‏.‏ فَثَنَى رِجْلَهُ وَاسْتَقْبَلَ الْقِبْلَةَ فَسَجَدَ بِهِمْ سَجْدَتَيْنِ ثُمَّ سَلَّمَ فَلَمَّا انْفَتَلَ أَقْبَلَ عَلَيْنَا بِوَجْهِهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَقَالَ ‏"‏ إِنَّهُ لَوْ حَدَثَ فِي الصَّلاَةِ شَىْءٌ أَنْبَأْتُكُمْ بِهِ وَلَكِنْ إِنَّمَا أَنَا بَشَرٌ أَنْسَى كَمَا تَنْسَوْنَ فَإِذَا نَسِيتُ فَذَكِّرُونِي ‏"‏ ‏.‏ وَقَالَ ‏"‏ إِذَا شَكَّ أَحَدُكُمْ فِي صَلاَتِهِ فَلْيَتَحَرَّ الصَّوَابَ فَلْيُتِمَّ عَلَيْهِ ثُمَّ لْيُسَلِّمْ ثُمَّ لْيَسْجُدْ سَجْدَتَيْنِ ‏"‏ ‏.‏

The Messenger of Allah (s) offered prayer. The version of the narrator Ibrahim goes: I do not know whether he increased or decreased (the rak'ahs of prayer). When he gave the salutation, he was asked: Has something new happened in the prayer, Messenger of Allah? He said: What is it? They said: You prayed so many and so many (rak'ahs). He then relented his foot and faced the Qiblah and made two prostrations. He then gave the salutation. When he turned away (finished the prayer), he turned his face to us and said: Had anything new happened in prayer, I would have informed you. I am only a human being and I forget just as you do; so when I forget, remind me, and when any of you is in doubt about his prayer he should aim at what is correct, and complete his prayer in that respect, then give the salutation and afterwards made two prostrations. ABU DAWUD

 

Perhaps you meant this mistake?

حَدَّثَنَا عُثْمَانُ بْنُ أَبِي شَيْبَةَ، - وَاللَّفْظُ لَهُ - حَدَّثَنَا جَرِيرٌ، عَنِ الْحَسَنِ بْنِ عُبَيْدِ اللَّهِ، عَنْ إِبْرَاهِيمَ بْنِ سُوَيْدٍ، قَالَ صَلَّى بِنَا عَلْقَمَةُ الظُّهْرَ خَمْسًا فَلَمَّا سَلَّمَ قَالَ الْقَوْمُ يَا أَبَا شِبْلٍ قَدْ صَلَّيْتَ خَمْسًا ‏.‏ قَالَ كَلاَّ مَا فَعَلْتُ ‏.‏ قَالُوا بَلَى - قَالَ - وَكُنْتُ فِي نَاحِيَةِ الْقَوْمِ وَأَنَا غُلاَمٌ فَقُلْتُ بَلَى قَدْ صَلَّيْتَ خَمْسًا ‏.‏ قَالَ لِي وَأَنْتَ أَيْضًا يَا أَعْوَرُ تَقُولُ ذَاكَ قَالَ قُلْتُ نَعَمْ ‏.‏ قَالَ فَانْفَتَلَ فَسَجَدَ سَجْدَتَيْنِ ثُمَّ سَلَّمَ ثُمَّ قَالَ قَالَ عَبْدُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى بِنَا رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم خَمْسًا فَلَمَّا انْفَتَلَ تَوَشْوَشَ الْقَوْمُ بَيْنَهُمْ فَقَالَ ‏"‏ مَا شَأْنُكُمْ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالُوا يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ هَلْ زِيدَ فِي الصَّلاَةِ قَالَ ‏"‏ لاَ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالُوا فَإِنَّكَ قَدْ صَلَّيْتَ خَمْسًا ‏.‏ فَانْفَتَلَ ثُمَّ سَجَدَ سَجْدَتَيْنِ ثُمَّ سَلَّمَ ثُمَّ قَالَ ‏"‏ إِنَّمَا أَنَا بَشَرٌ مِثْلُكُمْ أَنْسَى كَمَا تَنْسَوْنَ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ وَزَادَ ابْنُ نُمَيْرٍ فِي حَدِيثِهِ ‏"‏ فَإِذَا نَسِيَ أَحَدُكُمْ فَلْيَسْجُدْ سَجْدَتَيْنِ ‏"‏ ‏.‏

'Alqama led us in the noon prayer and he offered five rak'ahs; when the prayer was complete, the people said to him: Abu Shibl, you have offered five rak'ahs. He said: No, I have not done that. They said: Yes (you said five rak'ahs). He (the narrator) said: And I was sitting in a corner among people and I was just a boy. I (also) said: Yes, you have offered five (rak'ahs). He said to me: O, one-eyed, do you say the same thing? I said: Yes. Upon this he turned (his face) and performed two prostrations and then gave salutations, and then reported 'Abdullah as saying: The Messenger of Allah (s) led us in prayer and offered five rak'ahs. And as he turned away the people began to whisper amongst themselves. He (the Holy Prophet) said: What is the matter with you? They said: Has the prayer been extended? He said: No. They said: You have in fact said five rak'ahs. He (the Holy Prophet) then turned his back (and faced the Qibla) and performed two prostrations and then gave salutations and further said: Verily I am a human being like you, I forget just as you forget. Ibn Numair made this addition:" When any one of you forgets, he must perform two prostrations." SAHIH MUSLIM

 

Wait!....was it this like this mistake?

حَدَّثَنَا إِسْحَاقُ، قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا ابْنُ شُمَيْلٍ، أَخْبَرَنَا ابْنُ عَوْنٍ، عَنِ ابْنِ سِيرِينَ، عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ، قَالَ صَلَّى بِنَا رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم إِحْدَى صَلاَتَىِ الْعَشِيِّ ـ قَالَ ابْنُ سِيرِينَ سَمَّاهَا أَبُو هُرَيْرَةَ وَلَكِنْ نَسِيتُ أَنَا ـ قَالَ فَصَلَّى بِنَا رَكْعَتَيْنِ ثُمَّ سَلَّمَ، فَقَامَ إِلَى خَشَبَةٍ مَعْرُوضَةٍ فِي الْمَسْجِدِ فَاتَّكَأَ عَلَيْهَا، كَأَنَّهُ غَضْبَانُ، وَوَضَعَ يَدَهُ الْيُمْنَى عَلَى الْيُسْرَى، وَشَبَّكَ بَيْنَ أَصَابِعِهِ، وَوَضَعَ خَدَّهُ الأَيْمَنَ عَلَى ظَهْرِ كَفِّهِ الْيُسْرَى، وَخَرَجَتِ السَّرَعَانُ مِنْ أَبْوَابِ الْمَسْجِدِ فَقَالُوا قَصُرَتِ الصَّلاَةُ‏.‏ وَفِي الْقَوْمِ أَبُو بَكْرٍ وَعُمَرُ، فَهَابَا أَنْ يُكَلِّمَاهُ، وَفِي الْقَوْمِ رَجُلٌ فِي يَدَيْهِ طُولٌ يُقَالُ لَهُ ذُو الْيَدَيْنِ قَالَ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ، أَنَسِيتَ أَمْ قَصُرَتِ الصَّلاَةُ قَالَ ‏"‏ لَمْ أَنْسَ، وَلَمْ تُقْصَرْ ‏"‏‏.‏ فَقَالَ ‏"‏ أَكَمَا يَقُولُ ذُو الْيَدَيْنِ ‏"‏‏.‏ فَقَالُوا نَعَمْ‏.‏ فَتَقَدَّمَ فَصَلَّى مَا تَرَكَ، ثُمَّ سَلَّمَ، ثُمَّ كَبَّرَ وَسَجَدَ مِثْلَ سُجُودِهِ أَوْ أَطْوَلَ، ثُمَّ رَفَعَ رَأْسَهُ وَكَبَّرَ، ثُمَّ كَبَّرَ وَسَجَدَ مِثْلَ سُجُودِهِ أَوْ أَطْوَلَ، ثُمَّ رَفَعَ رَأْسَهُ وَكَبَّرَ‏.‏ فَرُبَّمَا سَأَلُوهُ ثُمَّ سَلَّمَ فَيَقُولُ نُبِّئْتُ أَنَّ عِمْرَانَ بْنَ حُصَيْنٍ قَالَ ثُمَّ سَلَّمَ‏.‏

Abu Huraira said, "Allah's Messenger (s) led us in one of the two `Isha' prayers (Abu Huraira named that prayer but I forgot it)." Abu Huraira added, "He prayed two rak`at and then finished the prayer with Taslim. He stood up near a piece of wood Lying across the mosque and leaned on it in such a way as if he was angry. Then he put his right hand over the left and clasped his hands by interlacing his fingers and then put his J right cheek on the back of his left hand. The people who were in haste left the mosque through its gates. They wondered whether the prayer was reduced. And amongst them were Abu Bakr and `Umar but they hesitated to ask the Prophet. A long-handed man called Dhul- Yadain asked the Prophet, 'O Allah's Messenger (s)! Have you forgotten or has the prayer been reduced?' The Prophet (s) replied, 'I have neither forgotten nor has the prayer been reduced' The Prophet (s) added, 'Is what Dhul Yadain has said true?' They (the people) said, 'Yes, it is true.' The Prophet (s) stood up again and led the prayer, completing the remaining prayer, forgotten by him, and performed Taslim, and then said, 'Allahu Akbar.' And then he did a prostration as he used to prostrate or longer than that. He then raised his head saying, 'Allahu Akbar; he then again said, 'Allahu Akbar', and prostrated as he used to prostrate or longer than that. Then he raised his head and said, 'Allahu Akbar.' " (The subnarrator added, "I think that they asked (Ibn Seereen) whether the Prophet (s) completed the prayer with Taslim. He replied, "I heard that `Imran bin Husain had said, 'Then he (the Prophet) did Taslim.") SAHIH BUKHARI

There is a famous saying here in the UK. You don't throw stones at other peoples houses if your house is made of glass. 

Edited by goldenhawk

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9 hours ago, submitter71 said:

Ahl Al Sunnah have over a hundred authentic narrations in Saheeh Al Bukhari about how the Prophet salalahu alaihi wa salam prayer. 

What is the outcome of those hadith ,mentioned in Bukhari for sunnis?

They pray in the following manner:

Hanbali, Shafii,  wahabi, deoandi, ahl hadith etc- Closed hands but they differ in the exact location for placing of hands in closed position

Maliki - Open hands

Some say Ameen after Sura Fatiha loudly and others do not say it?

Why they do not pray in one single manner if all hadith are true from the prophet saww regarding salat?

Edited by skamran110

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2 hours ago, goldenhawk said:

There is a famous saying here in the UK. You don't throw stones at other peoples houses if your house is made of glass. 

 

Brother, I don't have an issue with these narrations in the first place. They are authentic according to both Sunnis and Shias. 

 

2 hours ago, skamran110 said:

Why they do not pray in one single manner if all hadith are true from the prophet saww regarding salat?

 

Good question. As you know, the reasons for differences of opinions are based on factors. These include not hearing of the hadith, not knowing of the authenticity of a hadith, assuming that a weak hadith is authentic, having a different interpretation of a hadith, etc. 

In other words, the reason for the differences of opinions in Sunni Islam are traced back to the scholars that are making their judgement. In Shia Islam, the differences of opinions are traced back to the Imams. 

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1 hour ago, submitter71 said:

Good question. As you know, the reasons for differences of opinions are based on factors.

The answer for these differences / contradictions can be mentioned easily:from OP;

"The real reason for these contradictions is because the Sunnis put faith in some narrators, who were liars in reality."

WS

Edited by skamran110

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4 minutes ago, skamran110 said:

The answer for these differences / contradictions can be mentioned easily:from OP;

"The real reason for these contradictions is because the Sunnis put faith in some narrators, who were liars in reality."

WS

 

The contradictions in our authentic narrations are not many, as I have explained before. 

Again, the Shia contradictions in fiqh are four volumes long. The blame is not aimed at the narrators, it is aimed at the Imams.

I hope my point is getting across. 

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19 minutes ago, submitter71 said:

The contradictions in our authentic narrations are not many, as I have explained before. 

Based on 100 narrations about salah difference of method of prayer in sunnis is so obvious that Hanafi, Hanbali, Shafii, wahabi, deobadni follow the version with closed hands while the Maliki follow the method of prayer like Shia with open hands.

So these are two extremes about one furu salat only. so the claims of sunni about shism falseness is completely baseless and false. The problem lies in their own  narrations.

Do you find Shia method of  praying like sunnis with closed hands?

Edited by skamran110

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25 minutes ago, submitter71 said:

 

The contradictions in our authentic narrations are not many, as I have explained before. 

Again, the Shia contradictions in fiqh are four volumes long. The blame is not aimed at the narrators, it is aimed at the Imams.

I hope my point is getting across. 

Based on this sound logic, the blame for different flavors of salat amongst Sunnis should lie with the Prophet and not aimed at the narrators.

I hope my point is getting across. 

This is Sunni logic:

Person A comes to Imam at Fajr and asks how many rakats should he pray.
Imam says 2

Person B comes to Imam at Zuhr and asks how many rakats should he pray.
Imam says 4

Person C comes to Imam at Maghrib and asks how many rakats should he pray.
Imam says 3

Sunni: Oh look, oh look, Shia Imam is contradicting himself. The Sky is falling, the Sky is falling. They should rename the Chicken Little story to Sunni Little.

Edited by shiaman14

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