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submitter71

Simple Reason why Shiasm is False

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2 hours ago, Wisdom007 said:

Ghadeer khum has nothing to do with what you dream of, mawla has many meanings and it's nothing to do with leadership nor was it a declaration of such, and NO it's not in bukhari that prophet saw anointed Ali ra, no smoking gun there, as explained it was for love of Ali ra, the soldiers were complaining.

yes our great prophet saw speaks the truth and yes He saw speaks not from His own desire but when He speaks, it's a revelation from Allah swt.

our prophet saw never anointed Ali ra on ghadeer khum for leadership nor did Almighty Allah swt 

So the Prophet (sawa) stopped 100,000 Muslims in the middle of the desert just to say that Ali (as) was a cool dude. 

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1 hour ago, A true Sunni said:

If the Holy Prophet didnt anointed Hz Ali (as). He certainly anointed a family member.

Narrated in Sahih Bukhari. I am leaving you 2 weighty things, The Holy Quran and my Ahlul Bait.........

Quaran and Sunnah is the lesser tradition from Imam Maliks Muwatta

Questions i would ask why would any organisation promote the lesser tradition over the weightier one.

Sunnis shouldnt call themselves Sunnis since they have been instructed to hold tight to the Ahlul Bait. 

Where did the obvious get so lost

I of course meant Sahih Muslim 

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10 hours ago, Faruk said:

Weren't these collections (Bukhari & Muslim) called Sahih meaning so that one can trust them blindly?

You should re-investigate the entire collection hadith for hadith in that case to find out what is Sahih or not.

Furthermore, most of the narrators are nawasib so that's another thing why I reject these collections in the first place.

 

Nobody should trust anything blindly. These two books were scrutinized centuries ago. Some scholars have criticized some hadiths while others trusted all the contents. Most importantly, they were not infallible. All they did was collect what they believed was Saheeh. 

Most of the narrators were not Nawasib. This is very inaccurate. I would not be surprised if the Nawasib in Saheeh Bukhari were as low as 1%. There were more non-Imami Shia narrators in Bukhari. 

 

 

 

Everybody please return to the topic of discussion instead of discussing Ghadeer. You have a thousand other threads for that. 

 

I also see some more posts about exaggerated numbers of hadiths. I responded to this in the previous page. 

 

I repeat my original questions for I did not get an answer yet:

 

Why follow a sect that has relatively no prophetic hadiths? Why follow a sect in which you do not have the ability to know what the Imams taught? Sunnis have volumes of prophetic hadiths. We also have many narrations from Ahl Al Bayt, and they do not contain contradictions. 

Edited by submitter71

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20 hours ago, submitter71 said:

8000 is a gross exaggeration. 

There are Shia narrators that narrated more in Shia books than Abu Huraira and Aisha so this does not fix your problem.

 

If you are making the assumption that all the prophetic traditions in Sunni books are false, then this means that nobody preserved the prophetic hadiths, since Shias barely documented them. 

 

There are two possibilities.

The Sunnis collected true prophetic hadiths while the Shias did not collect them at all.

Or the Sunnis collected false prophetic hadiths while the Shias did not collect them at all.

 

In both cases, Shias have little to no prophetic hadiths. 

 

I have my money on the Sunni hadith, since I do not believe that Allah azza wa jal would allow for the prophetic hadiths to be lost. 

Assalaam'Alaikum brother,

My money is that Sunnis collected False hadiths mixed in with Good ones, and that Shia collected False hadiths mixed in with good ones.

No ones right, and you're just here clearly to start trouble.   What does your demeanor say about your sincerity towards the Shia if you come into the forums with that kind of title and try to outwardly poke out their entire belief system as a lie and call them liars/stupid for it?

As for your belief in that Allah Azza wa jalla in that He would not prevent prevent prophetic Hadiths to be lost, I give you these Verses:

[Quran 15:9] Absolutely, we have revealed the reminder, and, absolutely, we will preserve it.

[Quran 56:77-80] This is an honorable Quran. In a protected book. None can grasp it except the sincere. A revelation from the Lord of the universe.

[Quran 85:21-22] Indeed, it is a glorious Quran. In a preserved master tablet.

Tell me where is God's promise to preserve the Hadith?  To be perfectly frank, this is my personal opinion, I don't blame the Shia' for reaching towards the Prophet's SAW family for knowledge in Hadith, though I'm afraid the preservation of their records are just as susceptible to corruption/filters.

Granted, I give the men who attempted to collect hadith credit for attempting to preserve the Prophet's SAW teachings/words with good  intentions - Personally I don't think they're going to make all the difference in my Islam.  In fact, there are a great deal of Hadith that both Shia and Sunni actually share.

But lets get to my point,  

--------------------------------------------------------

Muhammad became ill in the year 632 and his health took a serious turn on a Thursday. It is reported that Muhammad asked for writing materials to write a statement that would prevent the Muslim nation from going astray forever. The first person to reply was Umar, answering that there was no need for the statement, arguing that Muhammad was ill and that the Muslims had The book of Allah "Hasabuna Kitaab Allah (the Book of Allah is enough for us)".[3]

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

When Allah's Apostle was on his death-bed and in the house there were some people among whom was 'Umar bin Al-Khattab, the Prophet said, "Come, let me write for you a statement after which you will not go astray." 'Umar said, "The Prophet is seriously ill and you have the Qur'an; so the Book of Allah is enough for us." The people present in the house differed and quarrelled. Some said "Go near so that the Prophet may write for you a statement after which you will not go astray," while the others said as Umar said. When they caused a hue and cry before the Prophet, Allah's Apostle said, "Go away!" Narrated 'Ubaidullah: Ibn 'Abbas used to say, "It was very unfortunate that Allah's Apostle was prevented from writing that statement for them because of their disagreement and noise."

Sunnis tend to view this as Sahih and have included it in Sahih al-Bukhari.[3]

Sa'id b. Jubair reported from Ibn Abbas that he said: Thursday, and what about Thursday? Then tears began to flow until I saw them on his cheeks as it they were the strings of pearls. He (the narrator) said that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Bring me a shoulder blade and ink-pot (or tablet and inkpot), so that I write for you a document (by following which) you would never go astray. They said: Allah's Messenger (may peace upon him) is in the state of unconsciousness [yahjur, literal translation: "talking nonsense"; obviously, the Prophet was not unconscious since he was speaking].[4]

Sunnis tend to view this as Sahih and have included it in Sahih Muslim.[5]

----------------------------------------------------------

According to above Sahih Hadith, you MUST believe the rendition of events in the matter concerning Umar ibn al Khattab preventing our prophet SAW from getting the pen from above?

Tell me, if you believe that Umar did the right thing, then why are you criticizing these Shia' on their Hadith's and trying to promote the Sunni hadith?

According to Your Hadith, Sunni Hadith and Sunni Scholarly opinion from above, we have the "Qu'ran; so the Book of Allah is enough for us".

Get your Hadith rhetoric out of here brother, and start speaking with the Quran in mind and be consistent.  I suppose you'll respond to me and say, " but we can't have the Qu'ran without the Hadith brother, you and I both know that !"  

If that's the case, then Umar made a mistake in the above referenced Hadith in preventing the Prophet SAW in his final moments to give more knowledge/advice  to the muslims.  

Unfortunately, I'm also of the mind that the Qu'ran should come first when dealing with heavy topics and discussions, and I'd rather defer last to Hadith's if I have to.  Hypocritically, Abu Bakr and Umar ibn Al Khattab managed to get their will's/papers out even though they were seriously ill (Abu Bakr passed out during his, while Umar was stabbed) while denying their Prophet SAW his right to a will.  Though I know the integrity of the Prophet SAW wouldn't purposefully abandon the Ummah/people by choosing to ignore everyone and not write anything down until his death especially when Umar is not present in the room, so I view it as the prophet SAW request for the pen as not 100% necessary.

Clearly there was a reason why the Prophet SAW didn't afterwards beseech anyone to give him the pen upon Umar denying him the Pen. We know the Prophet SAW wasn't a petty man who wouldn't let his anger (as he said "go away!" when everyone fought upon his request for the pen) get the better of him and let the Ummah " go astray", because we all know from the Quran and other Hadith's that the Prophet SAW would never lie and was the truthful honest one, when did the prophet SAW test us like this?  Only the angels have come and tested us in that way.

So what was Umar afraid of happening if he was going to learn a lesson from the Prophet SAW, for granting him the Pen?

OR perhaps, from my perspective, the Prophet SAW once he saw everyone fight at the mere request for the pen, realized it would be futile anyway and his writing would be in vain.  As the differing/quarreling was a sign of how divided things were going to be and that he knew.  Upset from how everyone reacted and thus greatly disappointing him, he says "go away!" to leave them to their devices.

I'm not gonna accuse Umar here of being of faulty character, perhaps the guy really did believe in what he was doing, or perhaps he had a slip of faith after seeing the Prophet look to be delirious (though why would a delirious person ask for something to write down?), he's human we all make mistakes even especially if we try to justify them or have good intentions.  The Shaytaan has been around since before Adam AS, I can believe he's learned to deceive even the best of us with all the time in biding.

Regardless, the Qu'ran, Gods word tell us in the book are things that will get us on the right path, and if Umar was following his words saying that the Qu'ran is enough so that they won't go astray, then his family and descendants who became the Umayyads should have followed it.

Perhaps what's in the Qu'ran is good for us, but our hearts are gonna be what they are and hard to change...relegating the prophet's advice and the qu'ran as useless the kind of person who is heedless.

Sermon of Abu Bakr upon assuming role of Khalifah

" I have been given the authority over you, and I am not the best of you. If I do well, help me; and if I do wrong, set me right. Sincere regard for truth is loyalty and disregard for truth is treachery. The weak amongst you shall be strong with me until I have secured his rights, if God wills; and the strong amongst you shall be weak with me until I have wrested from him the rights of others, if God wills. Obey me so long as I obey God and His Messenger. But if I disobey God and His Messenger, you owe me no obedience. Arise for your prayer, God have mercy upon you. (Al-Bidaayah wan-Nihaayah 6:305,306) "

---------------------------------------------------

On 23 August 634, Abu Bakr fell sick and did not recover due to his old age.

Abu Bakr developed high fever and was confined to bed. His illness was prolonged, and when his condition worsened, he felt that his end was near. Realizing his death was near, he sent for Ali and requested him to perform his ghusl since Ali had also done it for Muhammad.

Abu Bakr felt that he should nominate his successor so that the issue should not be a cause of dissension among the Muslims after his death, though there was already controversy over Ali not having been appointed.[62]

He appointed Umar as his successor after discussing with some companions. Some of them favored the nomination and others disliked it, due to the tough nature of Umar.

Abu Bakr thus dictated his last testament to Uthman Ibn Affan as follows:

In the name of Most Merciful God. This is the last will and testament of Abu Bakr bin Abu Quhafa, when he is in the last hour of the world, and the first of the next; an hour in which the infidel must believe, the wicked be convinced of their evil ways, I nominate Umar bin al Khattab as my successor. Therefore, hear to him and obey him. If he acts right, confirm his actions. My intentions are good, but I cannot see the future results. However, those who do ill shall render themselves liable to severe account hereafter. Fare you well. May you be ever attended by the Divine favor of blessing.[63]

------------------------------------------------------

Gee, even Abu Bakr needed to have someone nominated to let the Ummah not go astray, or have "dissension".  Sounds like Umar made a mistake here man.  The people should have said we don't need an appointed Khalifah, we have the Qu'ran!  Right?

Look, forget all this historical garbage (not being sarcastic).  We have the Qu'ran, let's use that first.

Fun fact, Imam Jafar As Sadiq's great grandfather was Abu Bakr, for anyone who didn't know.

Imam Jafar as Sadiq's grand father was Qasim ibn Muhammad ibn Abu Bakr - who descends from:

Shaykh Qāsim ibn Muhammad descended from Abu Bakr on his father’s side and from Ali ibn Abi Talib on his mother’s side. He was the grandson of the first Caliph Abu Bakr, and the son of Muhammad ibn Abi Bakr, one of Ali's earliest supporters. Moreover, his daughter Farwah bint al-Qasim was the mother of the sixth Shi'a Imam, Ja'far as-Sadiq. One of his sons was Abdu r-Rahman. Besides, he was the nephew of Aishah bint Abi Bakr.[2]

So without Abu Bakr, you would not have had a 6th Imam.  His existence was necessary to have the lineage of Ahlul Bait move forward.

After the death of Abu Bakr, Ali raised Muhammad ibn Abi Bakr. The Twelver Shia view Muhammad ibn Abi Bakr as one of the companions of Ali.[68] When Muhammad ibn Abi Bakr was killed by the Ummayads[68]Aisha the wife of Muhammad, also a renowned scholar of her time, raised and taught her nephew Qasim ibn Muhammad ibn Abu Bakr. Qasim ibn Muhammad ibn Abu Bakrs mother was from Alis family and Qasims daughter Farwah bint al-Qasim was married to Muhammad al-Baqir and was the mother of Jafar al-Sadiq. Therefore, Qasim ibn Muhammad ibn Abu Bakr was the grand son of Abu Bakr the first caliph and the grand father of Jafar al-Sadiq. Jafar al-Sadiq disapproved of people who said anything bad about his great grand father Abu Bakr the first caliph. Zaydis, the largest group amongst the Shia before the Safavid Dynasty and currently the second largest group, believe that on the last hour of Zayd ibn Ali (the uncle of Jafar al-Sadiq), he was betrayed by the people in Kufa who said to him: "May God have mercy on you! What do you have to say on the matter of Abu Bakr and Umar ibn al-Khattab?" Zayd ibn Ali said, "I have not heard anyone in my family renouncing them both nor saying anything but good about them...when they were entrusted with government they behaved justly with the people and acted according to the Qur'an and the Sunnah"[69][70][71]

I think the truth isn't so black and white as both the Shia' and Sunni's try to make it appear to be.

Edited by wmehar2

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1 hour ago, wmehar2 said:

Sadiq's great grandfather was Abu Bakr, for anyone who didn't know.

I liked your post very informative. But this whole issue of Abu Bakr being the .... The great grandfather of all the Imams (as) is the Holy Prophet (pbuh and his family ) so stop spreading garbage 

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Can someone remove this guys post its staring to bother me and he has the audacity to say the usurpers are the grandfather .... This guy sick in the head obviously !!!! Where do you see our imams (as) refer to anyone else as their grandfather or father!!! rather than the Holy Prophet (pbuh and his family ) post this trash somewhere else. Seriously !!!! 

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1 hour ago, wmehar2 said:

So without Abu Bakr, you would not have had a 6th Imam.  His existence was necessary to have the lineage of Ahlul Bait move forward.

 Existence or non existence of Abu bakr means nothing. We believe Imam (as) are divinely appointed and Allah(swt)  did not depend on Abu Bakr or anyone else to keep the lineage going. 

Abu lahab and Abu jah'l were more closely related to RasulAllah(saw) than Abu Bakr was to Imam Sadiq a.s. It's the actions that matter. 

 

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Do bakri just pretend that what the prophet pbuh said at dawat zul ashira regarding maula ali as never happened? Or is it just another "no clear evidence"?

The prophet literally said the words "he is my successor".

Oh, right, successor means friend because #SunniLogic

 

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19 hours ago, submitter71 said:

Yes, there is no doubt that Sunnis have isolated cases of contradictions in their hadiths.

This is off-topic, but the correct version of the narration is 90. Al Bukhari says so if you go to the original reference. The other numbers are mistakes from the narrators and not contradictions from the Prophet peace be upon him. 

Salam brother. I don't think you have isolated cases of contradictions. You want me to give you some more?

Did i say that prophet (sawas) contradicted himself? I blamed your narrators for these contractions in your sahih books. Also, if bukhari knew that the correct number of wives was 90, then why did he take the other narrations which mentioned a different number? Did he not realize this or was he was collecting wrong information deliberately? Either way, you have dug a hole for yourself.

So now you have admitted that narrators do make mistakes even in your sahih books. This causes further problems because now we cannot be 100% certain on these narrators that make mistakes because if someone makes mistake just once, then his credibility is in question and we have no guarantee he will not make further mistakes again.

Let's take the example of hazrat Aisha. She is one of the top 5 highest narrators. You call her "sadiqa" the truthful. However Allah and Bukhari call her a liar and yet you take so many narrations from her and accept them without question. 

Therefore i'lm rijal in sunnism has major flaws. This is why the shias say only Quran is 100% prefect and everything else is down to scrutiny. 

 

Edited by goldenhawk
grammar mistake

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Ok lets assume for a moment that Sunni books contain Prophetic knowledge but then we look at their deeds and find nothing prophetic in them? Today they have several sects doing takfir of each other and differing in their practices and beliefs. Their jihads and springs have failed miserably. Obviously it means that their prayers went unanswered too. So what happened?

Cutting heads, is that a prophetic deed?

Oppressing minorities, is that prophetic?

Nikah Jihad and Nikah Misyar, are those prophetic deeds?

Manipulating business profits and cheating, especially during ramadhan, is that a prophetic deed?

You had many centuries of time and you accomplished nothing spiritually nor temporally. So where are all those prophetic hadiths now? Truth is you follow a different "prophet" and even your god is different, with limbs and a throne and all that. 

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7 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

I'm not gonna accuse Umar here of being of faulty character, perhaps the guy really did believe in what he was doing, or perhaps he had a slip of faith after seeing the Prophet look to be delirious (though why would a delirious person ask for something to write down?), he's human we all make mistakes even especially if we try to justify them or have good intentions.  The Shaytaan has been around since before Adam AS, I can believe he's learned to deceive even the best of us with all the time in biding.

Umar made a lot of "mistakes". One of which, abandoning Prophet hadiths completely and relying just on the Quran. 

‎جامع بيان العلم وفضله، ابن عبد البر، ج 1، ص 177
‎رقم الحديث: ١٩٠٤  
‎قال قرظة بن كعب لما سيرنا عمر إلى العراق مشى معنا عمر وقال: أتدرون لم شيعتكم؟ قالوا: نعم مكرمة لنا. قال: ومع ذلك إنكم تأتون أهل قرية لهم دوي بالقرآن كدوي النحل فلا تصدوهم بالأحاديث فتشغلوهم جردوا القرآن وأقلوا الرواية عن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم وأنا شريككم. فلما قدم قرظة بن كعب قالوا: حدثنا. فقال: نهانا عمر رضي الله عنه
‎(١٩٠٤ إسناده صحيح)

So the Prophets hadiths are against the Quran? They stop Muslims from understanding the Quran? The Holy Prophets hadiths?!


‎البداية والنهاية، ابن كثير، ج 11، ص 272:  قال‏:‏ ثم يقول أبو هريرة‏:‏ أفكنت محدثكم بهذه الأحاديث وعمر حي‏؟‏ أما والله إذاً لأيقنت أن المحففة ستباشر ظهري، فإن عمر كان يقول‏:‏ اشتغلوا بالقرآن فإن القرآن كلام الله‏.‏ ولهذا لما بعث أبا موسى إلى العراق قال له‏:‏ إنك تأتي قوماً لهم في مساجدهم دوي بالقرآن كدوي النحل، فدعهم على ما هم عليه، ولا تشغلهم بالأحاديث، وأنا شريكك في ذلك‏.‏ هذا معروف عن عمر رضي الله عنه

This is known about Umar.


‎وفي لفظ الحاكم في المستدرك 1 ص 110: إن عمر بن الخطاب قال لابن مسعود ولأبي الدرداء ولأبي ذر: ما هذا الحديث عن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم؟ وأحسبه حبسهم بالمدينة حتى أصيب.

Someone like Abu Dharr... Being questioned by Umar.


For Shia the Quran and the Prophet and his Ahlul Bayt are no different. These two weighty things were given EQUAL importance. Only difference is Quran is Allah's revelations through a book whereas Prophet and his Ahlul Bayt are his revelations through a human. Which is why we call them "Al Quran Al-Natiq" (the talking Quran). 

Since @submitter71 is concerned about the Prophetic narrations in Shia hadiths we can all agree there were fabricators and liars who aimed to alter Islam and change it. Since the book of Allah is preserved and they couldn't play around with it, they went to the Prophets Hadiths and started playing around with the words of the Prophet. Why we see ilm al rijal as a complex subject and why there is hundreds of books focusing specifically on fabricated and mawdoo hadiths. Umar thought the best way fight this was to abondan and stop writing Prophetic hadiths all together. So how will we hold on to Quran and sunnah without the sunnah? This works against everything and instead will open doors for the fabricators and liars!

Mistakes like Umar's can cost the entire ummah on judgment day. Who is he to ban and un-ban some Islamic rules because what he thinks is best? Who is he to abandon the Prophets sunnah? Perhaps you might say Umar might've thought by abandoning and leaving the Prophets hadiths Muslims won't get confused and led astray by fabricated hadiths. Hadiths are our way of knowing the Prophets sunnah and if Umar left hadiths for a certain time then what were the people following? Quran and Sunnah? No. Quran and Ahlul Bayt? Maybe, but definitely not majority of the ummah. Were they Quranists? What exactly did Umar achieve with this tactic other than opening the doors of fabricators since hadiths weren't written down for that period.

Which is exactly WHY Shia believe succession and leadership of Islam should (and is) be a position for infallible individuals who make no error. Allah's system of infallible humans to lead the ummah of the most important message and religion on Earth.


(O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you...) 4:59
Obeying Allah is a given. Obey infallible Prophet to lead you to Allah. Obey infallible authoritative figures who will lead you to obeying Allah and the Prophet correctly, perfectly and with no errors. 

This isn't the point of the thread but brother @submitter71 was spitting out biased assumptions and you brought this up.

Edited by Alzaynebia313

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1 minute ago, Alzaynebia313 said:

Which is exactly WHY Shia believe succession and leadership of Islam should (and is) be a position for infallible individuals who make no error. Allah's system of infallible humans to lead the ummah of the most important message and religion on Earth.

*Mic drop* 

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7 hours ago, Ya_isa (as) said:

Can someone remove this guys post its staring to bother me and he has the audacity to say the usurpers are the grandfather .... This guy sick in the head obviously !!!! Where do you see our imams (as) refer to anyone else as their grandfather or father!!! rather than the Holy Prophet (pbuh and his family ) post this trash somewhere else. Seriously !!!! 

My post wasn't meant to offend and I'm  sorry if it has, but it was meant to demonstrate that Allah has put meaning into every single person, idea,  action  in all things to have come to pass.

I promise you that I'm not lying and I do encourage you to read /study up on lineages.  

No human being can exist without having 2 parents, 4 grandparents, and 8 grandparents and so forth ... etc.  These lineages are all very well preserved and have no contest with Sunni, Shia, and even non Muslim historical opinion.  I suggest you read on the lineages of each of Imam Jafar as Sadiq's AS grandparents for yourself and find me the names of all 8 great parents.

Abu Bakr of a similar token is also the 7th/8th cousin of the Prophet,  and as @starlight said the likes of Abu Jahl and others even shared blood/kinship.

True, the Shia perspective is such that these Imams are divinely appointed, but however that means every person to exist in Quraysh,  both good and bad was divinely appointed for a role to play for reasons we may or may not understand.  Though I've been told here that the Shia perspective is one that where they believe all of the paternal ancestors of the prophet SAW were believers in the religion of Ibrahim AS, idol worship found its way in and corrupted brothers , sisters and cousins of the same tribe of people and it spread from before  Adnans time to all over Quraysh. 

The fact is the same, even if you perceive Abu Bakr (whether rightly or wrongly I'm going to understand either way) as a usurper, the fact that he stuck behind the prophet SAW through thick and thin during his lifetime (debatable to in the later stages if his life), regardless he played a role.  Anytime during the hardship periods Muslims faced he could have turned around and sided with the majority of Kafirs, as any smart minded non God believing man should have, but he didn't.

I'm firmly convinced he has good intentions and has been deceived by shaytaan to take an action that at the time to him,  may have seem like better for the greater good, though that is just my personal opinion and in no way will I assert it here, you're free to believe however you want and I'll think no less of anyone here for it.

Nothing happens without the permission of God, and God always makes it so that it is right. 

2:286

Allah does not charge a soul except [with that within] its capacity. It will have [the consequence of] what [good] it has gained, and it will bear [the consequence of] what [evil] it has earned. "Our Lord, do not impose blame upon us if we have forgotten or erred. Our Lord, and lay not upon us a burden like that which You laid upon those before us. Our Lord, and burden us not with that which we have no ability to bear. And pardon us; and forgive us; and have mercy upon us. You are our protector, so give us victory over the disbelieving people."

Edited by wmehar2

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16 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

I don't dream of Ali ( as ) being mawla because it is actually fact. If what you are telling me is the truth, then explain this hadith: When the Messenger of Allah (s) was asked about the meaning of "whomever I am his MAWLA then ‘Ali is his Mawla". He said: Allah is my Mawla more deserving of me (my obedience) than myself, I do not dispute him. I am the Mawla of the believers, deserving in them than themselves, they do not dispute me., whomever I was his Mawla, more deserving in him than himself (and) does not dispute me, then ‘Ali is Mawla, more deserving in him than himself, he does not dispute him."

These are the sources for the hadith: Shamsul Akhbar, by al-Qurashi, ‘Ali Ibn Hamid, p38

 

- Salwat al-’Arifin, by al-Muwaffaq billah, al-Husayn Ibn Isma’il al Jurjani.

^I don't wish to argue with you and cause fitnah on this holy month but I would like to hear your explanation of this hadith. 

P.S. I can show you the sources of the Ghadir Khumm, I saw it in Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim for starters. 

Bring what you want, you have no argument.........mawla doesn't specifically mean leader and especially from OUR books

you couldn't argue even if you tried

i know where it is in bukhari.......but your the one who is ignoring the soldiers part, very intelligent

all you have is the word mawla and nothing else..........still like I said.......Ali ra never even knew 

now you go and DREAM up something else for me to answer

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16 minutes ago, Wisdom007 said:

Bring what you want, you have no argument.........mawla doesn't specifically mean leader and especially from OUR books

you couldn't argue even if you tried

i know where it is in bukhari.......but your the one who is ignoring the soldiers part, very intelligent

all you have is the word mawla and nothing else..........still like I said.......Ali ra never even knew 

now you go and DREAM up something else for me to answer

Why do you expect us to bring you evidence from Sunni books?

Why don't you bring evidence for abubakr or umar from Shia books?

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1 minute ago, DigitalUmmah said:

addendum: 

why was the prophet (pbuh) saying "Me and Ali (as) are BFF" in front of 100,000 witnesses so important, that the quranic verse was revealed "oh prophet, reveal what has been revealed to you, or it will be as though you have revealed nothing at all"

is saying "ali is my friend" REALLY as important as the entirety of the prophetic revelation?

yes. because #SunniLogic 

You'll disagree with what Sunni's believe but they believe that verse you quoted was revealed much earlier, and therefore nonsensical as it comes after the verse regarding completion of the religion, and also after when the Prophet SAW took testimonials from people that he delivered the teachings of Islam to the people.   Which would mean that verse 5:67 that you quoted, would be the final verse (s).  I'm not saying whether if I agree with this or not, thats up to everyone else to debate but this is their perspective and wouldn't likely be a good justification for them.

Regardless, you don't need anything more than common sense to make the connection to what the Prophet SAW was referring to. 

 

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11 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

You'll disagree with what Sunni's believe but they believe that verse you quoted was revealed much earlier, and therefore nonsensical as it comes after the verse regarding completion of the religion, and also after when the Prophet SAW took testimonials from people that he delivered the teachings of Islam to the people.   Which would mean that verse 5:67 that you quoted, would be the final verse (s).  I'm not saying whether if I agree with this or not, thats up to everyone else to debate but this is their perspective and wouldn't likely be a good justification for them.

Regardless, you don't need anything more than common sense to make the connection to what the Prophet SAW was referring to. 

 

interesting point - this is where reliable tafsir come in

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2 hours ago, Wisdom007 said:

 

 

but your the one who is ignoring the soldiers part, very intelligent

 

These ignorant soldiers that you are referring to, did they not read the Quran? Quran clearly states: "(O Prophet) tell (people) I don’t ask you any wage (in return for my prophethood) except to love my near kin. And if anyone earns any good We shall give Him an increase of good (in return for it)”(Qur’an 42:23).

 

Ibn Abbas narrated: When the above verse (42:23) was revealed, the companions asked: "O’ the Messenger of Allah! Who are those near kin whose love Allah has made obligatory for us?”Upon that the Prophet (S) said: "‘Ali, Fatimah, and their two sons.”He (S) repeated this sentence thrice.

Sunni references:

1. Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhr al-Din al-Razi, Part 27, pp 165-166

2. Tafsir al-Tha’labi, under the commentary of verse 42:23 of Qur’an

3. Tafsir al-Tabari, by Ibn Jarir al-Tabari, under verse 42:23

4. Tafsir al-Qurtubi, under commentary of verse 42:23 of Qur’an

5. Tafsir al-Kashshaf, by al-Zamakhshari, under commentary of verse 42:23

6. Tafsir al-Baidhawi, under the commentary of verse 42:23 of Qur’an

7. Tafsir al-Kalbi, under commentary of verse 42:23 of Qur’an

8. al-Madarik, in connection with verse 42:23

 

Quran Clearly states it is binding upon all Muslims to love the family, So how could  these ignorant soldiers forget  what was incumbent upon them? 

 

And more to the point, if these soldiers were so  ignorant to the verse of the Quran, and complained to Rasulillah (pbuh&hf) about Imam Ali (as), why did not Rasulilah remind them of verse 42:23 at Ghadir Khumm? Logically, if there is a binding condition in the holy Quran then surely  that has far more precedence than making a remark about Imam Ali (as) being friend!!

Before you make any irrational comments, go and learn about logic and then come back to debate!

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Quran 42:23

 

Sahih International: It is that of which Allah gives good tidings to His servants who believe and do righteous deeds. Say, [O Muhammad], "I do not ask you for this message any payment [but] only good will through kinship." And whoever commits a good deed - We will increase for him good therein. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Appreciative.

Pickthall: This it is which Allah announceth unto His bondmen who believe and do good works. Say (O Muhammad, unto mankind): I ask of you no fee therefor, save lovingkindness among kinsfolk. And whoso scoreth a good deed We add unto its good for him. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Responsive.

Yusuf Ali: That is (the Bounty) whereof Allah gives Glad Tidings to His Servants who believe and do righteous deeds. Say: "No reward do I ask of you for this except the love of those near of kin." And if any one earns any good, We shall give him an increase of good in respect thereof: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Ready to appreciate (service).

Shakir: That is of which Allah gives the good news to His servants, (to) those who believe and do good deeds. Say: I do not ask of you any reward for it but love for my near relatives; and whoever earns good, We give him more of good therein; surely Allah is Forgiving, Grateful.

Muhammad Sarwar: This is the glad news which God gives to His servants, the righteously striving believers. (Muhammad), say, "I do not ask you for any payment for my preaching to you except (your) love of(my near) relatives." Whoever achieves virtue will have its merit increased. God is All-forgiving and Appreciating.

Mohsin Khan: That is (the Paradise) whereof Allah gives glad tidings to His slaves who believe (in the Oneness of Allah Islamic Monotheism) and do righteous good deeds. Say (O Muhammad SAW): "No reward do I ask of you for this except to be kind to me for my kinship with you." And whoever earns a good righteous deed, We shall give him an increase of good in respect thereof. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Ready to appreciate (the deeds of those who are obedient to Him).

Arberry: That is the good tidings God gives to His servants who believe and do righteous deeds. Say: 'I do not ask of you a wage for this, except love for the kinsfolk; and whosoever gains a good deed, We shall give him increase of good in respect of it. Surely God is All-forgiving, All-thankful.

 

It's kinda of hard to see it with that tafsir in mind, trying to be unbiased here with an outsider perspective.  The word for family used here in arabic, Al Qorbaa', doesn't have  a possessive modifier on it... I can't really say confidently this verse is clearly intending to refer to the Prophet's SAW family here.  Especially considering all the translations I have here, save the two I bolded in red above..  Even then context of prior and forthcoming verses in the surah don't match up well to that meaning.

I read it as to be kind through kinship/brother hood with each other (hence why well call ourselves brothers and sisters in Islam), Just my perspective bro.  @power  Call my logic flawed *shrug*....  Even then it makes sense for the Prophet SAW to say he wants kinship from the ummah in exchange.

Even then considering the red bolded above.., my near relatives isn't directly to mean relatives, because Ahlul Bait AS aren't "near relatives", but direct relatives or just actual kin.

Also, it seems from the Sunni point of view, Lady Fatima AS was not married to Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib AS when this verese was revealed and therefore did not have children?  I could be mistaken, and please correct me if I'm wrong.

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4 hours ago, Wisdom007 said:

Bring what you want, you have no argument.........mawla doesn't specifically mean leader and especially from OUR books

you couldn't argue even if you tried

i know where it is in bukhari.......but your the one who is ignoring the soldiers part, very intelligent

all you have is the word mawla and nothing else..........still like I said.......Ali ra never even knew 

now you go and DREAM up something else for me to answer

Sahih Muslim.

I am leaving 2 weighty things. The Holy Quaran and the Ahlul Bait.

Imam Malik Muwatta

I am leaving 2 weighty things The Holy Quaran and Sunah

Sahih Muslim is weightier evidenced by 2 things. Firstly its acknowledged to be a more authentic book

Secondly it took 300 years to compile the Sunnah. If it had been so important to early historians it would have been compiled by the Sahaba just as the Quran was.

Use logic

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no offense, but every sunni i know who takes a deep, hard look at their own hadith collections finds himself/herself super confused as to what is going on - especially when they get to the part where the Prophet's (pbuh) 'favourite wife' talks about semen stains on his clothes and how he stood for salaat with semen on his shirt. 

If that doesn't disgust you, then I don't know what to tell you, akhi. It kills me to type this out. It makes me want to die to even distantly link the best of creation (peace and blessings on him and his family) which such garbage. 

Edited by BackwardsForwards

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1 hour ago, wmehar2 said:

Also, it seems from the Sunni point of view, Lady Fatima AS was not married to Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib AS when this verese was revealed and therefore did not have children?  I could be mistaken, and please correct me if I'm wrong.

This is because of the way Uthman complied the quran. He may have mixed Meccan ayahs with madani surahs and may have mixed madni ayahs with Meccan surahs. 

This is one example:

According to top sunni books, surah towbah (surah 9) was one of the last surahs to be revealed in medina. 

Yet the narration below speaks of a event during the Meccan period when an ayah from surah towbah was revealed !

حَدَّثَنَا إِسْحَاقُ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ، حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ الرَّزَّاقِ، أَخْبَرَنَا مَعْمَرٌ، عَنِ الزُّهْرِيِّ، عَنْ سَعِيدِ بْنِ الْمُسَيَّبِ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، قَالَ لَمَّا حَضَرَتْ أَبَا طَالِبٍ الْوَفَاةُ دَخَلَ عَلَيْهِ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَعِنْدَهُ أَبُو جَهْلٍ وَعَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ أَبِي أُمَيَّةَ، فَقَالَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏"‏ أَىْ عَمِّ قُلْ لاَ إِلَهَ إِلاَّ اللَّهُ‏.‏ أُحَاجُّ لَكَ بِهَا عِنْدَ اللَّهِ ‏"‏‏.‏ فَقَالَ أَبُو جَهْلٍ وَعَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ أَبِي أُمَيَّةَ يَا أَبَا طَالِبٍ، أَتَرْغَبُ عَنْ مِلَّةِ عَبْدِ الْمُطَّلِبِ‏.‏ فَقَالَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏"‏ لأَسْتَغْفِرَنَّ لَكَ مَا لَمْ أُنْهَ عَنْكَ ‏"‏‏.‏ فَنَزَلَتْ ‏{‏مَا كَانَ لِلنَّبِيِّ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَنْ يَسْتَغْفِرُوا لِلْمُشْرِكِينَ وَلَوْ كَانُوا أُولِي قُرْبَى مِنْ بَعْدِ مَا تَبَيَّنَ لَهُمْ أَنَّهُمْ أَصْحَابُ الْجَحِيمِ‏}

When Abu Talib's death approached, the Prophet (SAWAS) went to him while Abu Jahl and `Abdullah bin Abi Umaiya were present with him. The Prophet (SAWAS) said, "O uncle, say: None has the right to be worshipped except Allah, so that I may argue for your case with it before Allah." On that, Abu Jahl and `Abdullah bin Abu Umaiya said, "O Abu Talib! Do you want to renounce `Abdul Muttalib's religion?" Then the Prophet said, "I will keep on asking (Allah for) forgiveness for you unless I am forbidden to do so." 

THEN THERE WAS REVEALED :-- 'It is not fitting for the Prophet (SAWAS ) and those who believe that they should invoke (Allah) for forgiveness for pagans even though they be of kin, after it has become clear to them that they are companions of the Fire.' (9.113)

Sahih Bukhari

Hope this answers your query brother.

Edited by goldenhawk

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10 minutes ago, celestial said:

By who? Umayyads?

Why don't you try using it first before suggesting to others...

The biggest problem on this site appears to be an inabilty of people to read assimilate and comprehend simple sentences.

Do you think 'Mantaq' should be taught as a compulsory subject in Madrasahs

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On 10/2/2016 at 1:59 AM, submitter71 said:

Salam.

Every Shia believes that the best thing about Shia-Islam is that they have many narrations from Ahl Al Bayt. Shias have narrated so much from Ahl Al Bayt that the number of narrations from Jafar Al Sadiq is probably a hundred times more than the narrations from the Prophet peace be upon him.

I sometimes ask Shias: Why choose a sect that does not have many prophetic hadiths? They usually don't know this is true.

I challenge every Shia that has doubt to open up a random page in Al Kafi in order to find a prophetic hadith. Then, try it again ten times. The chances of you finding a hadith from the Prophet peace be upon him is very low. If you do the same with Sunni hadith books like Bukhari and Muslim, then you will find two or three narrations per page at least. 

 

So, we ask Shias, why follow a sect with very little prophetic hadiths? They say that they want to get their religion from Ahl Al Bayt. 

Strangely when we go to their books of hadith we find sooo many contradictions from the "infallible" Imams, to the extent that I can safely say that it is not possible to get hadith of Ahl Al Bayt from Shia books. Al Tusi collected four volumes of contradictions. Many of his attempts to reconcile authentic hadiths are silly. The more learned members here will agree with me. 

So the Shia scholars came up with the excuse of taqia. They say the Imam made taqia for the method of wiping head for ablution, for whether or not alcohol is impure, and for how much milk an infant drinking before he is made haram upon the wet-nurse. Everything and anything that cannot be explained by Shia scholars is supposedly taqia, no matter how insignificant it is. 

The real reason for these contradictions is because the Shias put faith in some narrators, who were liars in reality. 

 

As a Sunni, I ask: Why follow a sect that has relatively no prophetic hadiths? Why follow a sect in which you do not have the ability to know what the Imams taught? Sunnis have volumes of prophetic hadiths. We also have many narrations from Ahl Al Bayt, and they do not contain contradictions. 

We can't take any prophetic hadith/traditions because per Hz Aisha the Prophet was bewitched. Since we do not know from when-when he was bewitched, it is more prudent listen to hadith from the Imams since there are no accounts of them being bewitched.

I would freak out if woke up one morning and thought I had slept with all of my wives and then take 1-4 showers. So I am not sure what the poor Prophet must have done. I wonder how the magic was broken. But then, wouldnt get bewitched also become a prophetic tradition. 

I can just see you @submitter71 - walking around, writing useless posts, chewing miswak with drool all over your overly long and unkept beard wearing extremely short long pants trying to get bewitched by someone so you can be a true sunni.

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12 minutes ago, A true Sunni said:

The biggest problem on this site appears to be an inabilty of people to read assimilate and comprehend simple sentences.

Do you think 'Mantaq' should be taught as a compulsory subject in Madrasahs

Hey bro, sorry I thought you were opposing the ghadir... You really need a nickname change, it is easy to confuse you among some nasibis.

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4 hours ago, BackwardsForwards said:

Prophet's (pbuh) 'favourite wife' talks about semen stains on his clothes and how he stood for salaat with semen on his shirt. 

Appalling,  These people have no shame. How can they follow a creed which belittles our Holy Prophet (pbuh&hf) like that. Breaks ones heart!!!! Shame on them!! 

Edited by Ya_isa (as)

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Merits of Hz Ali(as) in Sahih Muslim . Crystal clear.

Yazid b. Hayyan reported, I went along with Husain b. Sabra and 'Umar b. Muslim to Zaid b. Arqam and, as we sat by his side, Husain said to him: Zaid. you have been able to acquire a great virtue that you saw Allaah's Messenger (sallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam) listened to his talk, fought by his side in (different) battles, offered prayer behind me. Zaid, you have in fact earned a great virtue. Zaid, narrate to us what you heard from Allaah's Messenger (sallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam). He said: I have grown old and have almost spent my age and I have forgotten some of the things which I remembered in connection with Allaah's Messenger (sallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam), so accept whatever I narrate to you, and which I do not narrate do not compel me to do that. He then said: One day Allaah's Messenger (sallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam) stood up to deliver sermon at a watering place known as Khumm situated between Mecca and Medina. He praised Allaah, extolled Him and delivered the sermon and. exhorted (us) and said: Now to our purpose. O people, I am a human being. I am about to receive a messenger (the angel of death) from my Lord and I, in response to Allaah's call, (would bid good-bye to you), but I am leaving among you two weighty things: the one being the Book of Allaah in which there is right guidance and light, so hold fast to the Book of Allaah and adhere to it. He exhorted (us) (to hold fast) to the Book of Allaah and then said: The second are the members of my household I remind you (of your duties) to the members of my family. He (Husain) said to Zaid: Who are the members of his household? Aren't his wives the members of his family? Thereupon he said: His wives are the members of his family (but here) the members of his family are those for whom acceptance of Zakat is forbidden. And he said: Who are they? Thereupon he said: 'Ali and the offspring of 'Ali, 'Aqil and the offspring of 'Aqil and the offspring of Ja'far and the offspring of 'Abbas. Husain said: These are those for whom the acceptance of Zakat is forbidden. Zaid said: Yes.

Its the chapter on merits of Hz Ali (as) number 5921

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Yazid b. Hayyan reported: We went to him (Zaid b. Arqam) and said to him. You have found goodness (for you had the honour) to live in the company of Allaah's Messenger (sallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam) and offered prayer behind him, and the rest of the hadith is the same but with this variation of wording that lie said: Behold, for I am leaving amongst you two weighty things, one of which is the Book of Allaah, the Exalted and Glorious, and that is the rope of Allaah. He who holds it fast would be on right guidance and he who abandons it would be in error, and in this (hadith) these words are also found: We said: Who are amongst the members of the household? Aren't the wives (of the Prophet) included amongst the members of his house hold? Thereupon he said: No, by Allaah, a woman lives with a man (as his wife) for a certain period; he then divorces her and she goes back to her parents and to her people; the members of his household include his ownself and his kith and kin (who are related to him by blood) and for him the acceptance of Zakat is prohibited.

No. 5924

and more

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