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In the Name of God بسم الله
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andres

discussion about andres' views of the bible

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On 9/29/2016 at 3:34 PM, Ali al-Abdullah said:

Not at all, rather, they were purified, just like the Prophets.

I have no reason to believe Muslims worship 12 Imams as Gods. Or that Catholics worship Saints. Just saying that I personally do not believe in infallible humans, prophets and Saints inclusive. 

 

Moderator's note: I have split this discussion off from the thread http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235041529-do-catholics-worship-mary/ because it isn't really related to that thread, and has branched off into a discussion within a discussion. Generally, andres' unorthodox Biblical views become a topic of discussion quite frequently, so it makes sense for them to have their own thread (even if the first post here isn't ideal).

 

Edited by Haydar Husayn

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3 minutes ago, andres said:

I have no reason to believe Muslims worship 12 Imams as Gods. Or that Catholics worship Saints. Just saying that I personallt do not believe in infallible humans, prophets and Saints inclusive. 

But you believe in a man being God? (nauzu billah) which makes much more sense, right?

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26 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

How do you know he had no biological father?

If Jesus mother Mary was a Virgin, as the Quran, Mathew and Luke gospels reports, Jesus would have no genetical father.

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6 minutes ago, andres said:

If Jesus mother Mary was a Virgin, as the Quran, Mathew and Luke gospels reports, Jesus would have no genetical father.

So you think those sources as so reliable that such an incredible claim can be accepted? On what basis?

Wouldn't it be more logical to assume that Jesus was the son of Joseph, and that he was only 'adopted' as the son of God? The stuff about a virgin mother just seems to be standard myth-making. Wouldn't you agree?

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1 hour ago, E.L King said:

So what is the Bible to him? A bunch of tales to improve man's morals?

Exactly. How can he believe in Jesus and not Adam in the Bible.

10 hours ago, andres said:

Jesus was not human. How could he be with no genetical father?

This is a miracle from Allah (swt) to demonstrate that He does what He wants. It was the same thing with Adam.

Edited by Ali al-Abdullah

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1 hour ago, E.L King said:

So what is the Bible to him? A bunch of tales to improve man's morals?

The Torah was written around 500 BC and it is not a 100 % reliable history book. It was written by humans, not by God, thats why there are factual errors. Have you not noticed?

Edited by andres

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1 hour ago, E.L King said:

The Torah was originally infallible. If it is proven that it is fallible, that means someone tampered with it.

The Torah was, as I already said written by Jews at the time of the diaspora in Babylon. You may say it marks the beginning of Judaism. Before that Jews were polytheistd, like other semitic tribes. The transformation was naturally gradual like in all other shifts of religion.

The persons that wrote the Torah were humans like you and me, but with the knowledge of that time. They could not always determine if their myths were right or wrong. Had they had the resourses of today, they would have known that 2 million Jews spending 40 years in the Desert without leaving any trace behind, is not possible. 

It is not a matter of infallible or not. They reffered to oral tradition. Same with the Gospels. Only the Gospels were written only 50 years after Jesus and the Torah 800 years after Moses. 

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2 hours ago, Ali al-Abdullah said:

No. It's been changed. This is the Islamic viewpoint also. However, as a Christian, aren't you supposed to believe in it?

For a long period the Church decided what to believe. If you believed differently you could even risk your life. Freedom of speach and  following developement has made Christians more and more understand that the Bible cannot be written by God, and that we must have in mind when and under which circumstances it was written. The Muslim world has not come as far in accepting this as the Christian. No offence meant, there was a time when Muslim culture was superior to Christian, and this can happen again. Trying to preserve society as it was 1400 years ago, is an obstacle to developement.

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23 minutes ago, andres said:

For a long period the Church decided what to believe. If you believed differently you could even risk your life. Freedom of speach and  following developement has made Christians more and more understand that the Bible cannot be written by God, and that we must have in mind when and under which circumstances it was written. The Muslim world has not come as far in accepting this as the Christian. No offence meant, there was a time when Muslim culture was superior to Christian, and this can happen again. Trying to preserve society as it was 1400 years ago, is an obstacle to developement.

So, you are basically picking and choosing.

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1 hour ago, Ali al-Abdullah said:

So, you are basically picking and choosing.

There are things we are very sure of today that was not known only a few hundred years ago. Like that 2-3 million jews spent 40 years in the desert or that the entire globe was flooded without leaving any trace. They could not know this when the Torah was written. Our books contain errors, not intended ones, so they are forgiven, nobody is perfect today either. Why believe what obviously is wrong. Can you? 

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2 hours ago, andres said:

There are things we are very sure of today that was not known only a few hundred years ago. Like that 2-3 million jews spent 40 years in the desert or that the entire globe was flooded without leaving any trace. They could not know this when the Torah was written. Our books contain errors, not intended ones, so they are forgiven, nobody is perfect today either. Why believe what obviously is wrong. Can you? 

Can I what?

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54 minutes ago, Ali al-Abdullah said:

No. I don't believe in old stories that are proven wrong.

Neither do I.  But incorrect historical details like the flood and the numbers of jews living 40 years in the desert, does not really disturb the Torahs message about the rules God had given them. 

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1 hour ago, andres said:

Neither do I.  But incorrect historical details like the flood and the numbers of jews living 40 years in the desert, does not really disturb the Torahs message about the rules God had given them. 

I'm not sure about the Jews in a desert, but Noah's Ark is in Islam too.

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8 minutes ago, Ali al-Abdullah said:

Really? My bad brother. Btw what desert was it?

Not your bad brother, you just said you were not sure. :)

I don't know, I have to look for the Hadith.As this is something I came across long time ago. I don't know if the name of the desert is mentioned in the Hadith.

Regardless *If* Andres find it so difficult to believe these incidents, there have been billions of people displaced from their countries more than 40 years lol in the past few centuries...

Or even with current tsunamis, so the flood of time of Noah is not so far fetched either.

Edited by certainclarity

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4 minutes ago, certainclarity said:

Not your bad brother, you just said you were not sure. :)

I don't know, I have to look for the Hadith.As this is something I came across long time ago. I don't know if the name of the desert is mentioned in the Hadith.

Regardless *If* Andres find it so difficult to believe these incidents, there have been billions of people displaced from their countries more than 40 years lol in the past few centuries...

Or even with current tsunamis, so the flood of time of Noah is not so far fetched either.

I see. Also I believe there has been evidences of Noah's Ark in Iraq, Iran,Turkey, Armenia, etc

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17 minutes ago, Ali al-Abdullah said:

I see.*

This is the Quranic reference to the 40 years:

[ Allah ] said, "Then indeed, it is forbidden to them for forty years [in which] they will wander throughout the land. So do not grieve over the defiantly disobedient people." (5:26)

You can read from 5:20-5:26

Edited by certainclarity

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4 hours ago, Ali al-Abdullah said:

I'm not sure about the Jews in a desert, but Noah's Ark is in Islam too.

Of course there could have been a small group of Jews 40 years in the desert leaving no trace behind. Just not 2-3 millions, as claimed in the Torah/Bible.

As for Noah, no such great flood ever happened. 1.400 years ago nobody knew this.

Edited by andres

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6 hours ago, andres said:

Of course there could have been a small group of Jews 40 years in the desert leaving no trace behind. Just not 2-3 millions, as claimed in the Torah/Bible.

As for Noah, no such great flood ever happened. 1.400 years ago nobody knew this.

How do you know this? Do you have any proof? Actually there's proof of it in Iraq, Iran, Turkey, Armenia, etc

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8 hours ago, andres said:

Of course there could have been a small group of Jews 40 years in the desert leaving no trace behind. Just not 2-3 millions, as claimed in the Torah/Bible.

As for Noah, no such great flood ever happened. 1.400 years ago nobody knew this.

How accurate do you think the New Testament is, specifically regarding the words and deeds of Jesus?

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