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Faruk

Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman

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13 minutes ago, zainabamy said:

Ws,

For many years Sunnis didn't consider Imam Ali (as) as a rightly guided caliph that's why you don't find him mentioned as much as the other three. In addition Muawiyah (la) and Yazid (la) bribed scholars to delete his virtues out of hadith literature.

This is true. It was invented later on.

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26 minutes ago, zainabamy said:

 In addition Muawiyah (la) and Yazid (la) bribed scholars to delete his virtues out of hadith literature.

It is still done by their followers. See this. 

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1748739478708485&id=1433239773591792

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41 minutes ago, zainabamy said:

Ws,

For many years Sunnis didn't consider Imam Ali (as) as a rightly guided caliph that's why you don't find him mentioned as much as the other three. In addition Muawiyah (la) and Yazid (la) bribed scholars to delete his virtues out of hadith literature.

The sunni legacy of the Ummayad kingdom.

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28 minutes ago, Faruk said:

The sunni legacy of the Ummayad kingdom.

No sunni claims he/she is "shia of ameer Muawiyya or anyother caliph of Islam" like shiites ! We are ummah of Muhammad s.a.w. And besides this many ahadith are present in "praise for Ahl'al bait" in sunni books too.

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14 minutes ago, (patience) said:

No sunni claims he/she is "shia of ameer Muawiyya or anyother caliph of Islam" like shiites ! We are ummah of Muhammad s.a.w. And besides this many ahadith are present in "praise for Ahl'al bait" in sunni books too.

Right after the election of Imam Ali a.s. there was a rift in the ummah which was caused by Muawiyyah.

After the death of the latter his son was appointed by him and after the Tragedy of Karbala the Shia of Imam Ali a.s. went underground and then the Umayyad kingdom was firmly established.

The Sunni of today consider the Umayyad kingdom the continuation of Sunni leadership while they do not identify themselves with the Shia Imams. Even Imam Jafar As-Saddiq doesn;'t seem to have a prominent place in Sunni scholarship while his direct and indirect pupils get all the honour so don't come with that crap that you're following the sunnah of Muhammad s.a.w.a.s. or simmilar nonsense.

I hope you're known with the fact how much the Umayyad kingdom hated aale Muhammad a.s. and how they expressed that by cursing the Household a.s. from their pulpits.



 

Edited by Faruk

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Bro Faruk, it seems your intellect does not aid you much, let me help you out.

1st Narration, it states that people used to view Abu Bakr as most suited for leadership, then `Umar and then `Uthman.

  • we used to say: 'Abu Bakr, and (then) 'Umar, and (then) 'Uthman.

Is it a surprise to you then that the people would choose Abu Bakr, then `Umar and then `Uthman after him when it comes to leadership? 

  • Allah's Messenger, Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman opened the Salat with

It's because they ruled in that order genius. Prophet -> Abu Bakr -> `Umar -> `Uthman. So in each era, each of em were the Imams of prayer and each of them in that respective order began Salat with Al-Hamd.

  • I accompanied Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) and he never offered more than two rak`at during the journey. Abu Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman used to do the same.

Same as above.

  • The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) used to say the takbir every time he got up, went down, stood and sat. Abu Bakr, 'Umar, and 'Uthman (did likewise)

Same as above.

  • Then Abu Bakr wore it after him, then 'Umar wore it after Abu Bakr, and the 'Uthman wore it after 'Umar till it fell down

That's the same case, it was inherited from leader to leader in that above order.  Prophet -> Abu Bakr -> `Umar -> `Uthman (fell in a well).

  • The prophet of Allah (ﷺ) ascended Uhud, and Abu Bakr, ’Umar and 'Uthman followed him.

This one is a different case, while it is possible that they followed him in that order yet there's no evidence for this. The narrators were all used to this order that it became a habit, similar to saying Hasan wal- Husayn NOT al-Husayn wal-Hasan.

Even if Husayn followed the Prophet (saw) up the mountain before his older brother, the narrator would still say: "al-Hasan wal-Husayn followed him" as this was the habit.

Now I do believe there're narrations where the Prophet (saw) did mention Abu Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman in that specific order, this to me signifies something and is a subtle sign as previously discussed.

Additionally, I can show a bunch of reports where `Ali is mentioned alongside him, so that the conspiracy theorists among you won't go too far in their imagination. The above reports were selectively chosen by Faruk don't forget.

Edited by `Umar bin `Ali

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4 hours ago, zainabamy said:

Ws,

For many years Sunnis didn't consider Imam Ali (as) as a rightly guided caliph that's why you don't find him mentioned as much as the other three. In addition Muawiyah (la) and Yazid (la) bribed scholars to delete his virtues out of hadith literature.

Interesting.

To my knowledge there was no Hadith literature at time of their rule. The earliest Hadith (Sunni) book that was compiled if I'm not mistaken was the Muwatta of Imam Malik, which was a few decades after their time.

Which, literature are you referring to?

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Brother @Faruk, I think you edited your thread since I first read it.

You asked was Ali only considered one of the first rightly guided Calipha because of Imam Ahmed?

No, he was always considered as one of the rightfully guided because Ali's rein was within the prophesied 30 years. The Prophet (SAW) said to the nearest meaning that in 30 years after his departure from the world will be rightly guided Caliphate, and then will come dynastic rule.

There, is however a dispute among Sunni Ulama whether Hassan can be considered as one of the rightfully guided. Many say he isn't because he retired, while the minority say otherwise. I'm with the latter.

Edited by Megatron

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Ignoring/neglecting/disregarding Imam Ali a.s. is the same as ignoring/neglecting/disregarding Nabi Muhammad SAW, since Imam Ali a.s. is the student/murid of Nabi Muhammad SAW.

Then ignoring/neglecting/disregarding Nabi Muhammad SAW makes someone out of the fold of Islam, not included in Nabi Muhammad SAW's syafaat.

That is enough to say !!!

Edited by myouvial
More explanation

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If we read history of Saqeefa Bani Saada we see that Ansaar and Mihajireen were fighting/querreling to prove their preferential rught for caliphate. But the noteworthy thing is that "No one mentioned Ali a.s like He a.s even do not exist".

This non mentioning of name of Ali a.s in Saqeefa further proves that Saqeefa was a planned conspiracy against Ali a.s because during conspiracy against a person for holding an office,  the conspirators do not mention or talk about the entitlement of the person against whom the conspiracy is designed. 

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8 hours ago, zainabamy said:

Ws,

For many years Sunnis didn't consider Imam Ali (as) as a rightly guided caliph that's why you don't find him mentioned as much as the other three. In addition Muawiyah (la) and Yazid (la) bribed scholars to delete his virtues out of hadith literature.

not knowing that it is Ali (ra) who has the most manaqibs in Sihah Sittah is only ignorance.

Secondly, if the later two had bribed the scholars then certainly we would have found in above collections their own virtues. so that also shows how much one knows and how much one claims to know.

Edited by Bukhari8k

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Brother Umar Ibn Ali has already given a great analysis. However you failed to some of those ahadith where all the four are mentioned together and i am only choosing the ones with sahih grading: 

Ibn Majah
It was narrated from Anas bin Malik that:
The Messenger of Allah said: The most merciful of my Ummah towards my Ummah is Abu Bakr; the one who adheres most sternly to the religion of Allah is 'Umar; the most sincere of them in shyness and modesty is 'Uthman; the best judge is 'Ali bin
Abu Talib; 

Ibn Majah
Sa’d bin Tariq said:
“I said to my father: ‘O my father! You prayed behind the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) and behind Abu Bakr, ‘Umar and ‘Uthman, and behind ‘Ali here in Kufah for about five years.

Abi Dawud
Narrated Safinah:
The Prophet (ﷺ) said: The Caliphate of Prophecy will last thirty years; then Allah will give the Kingdom of His Kingdom to anyone He wills. Sa'id told that Safinah said to him: Calculate Abu Bakr's caliphate as two years, 'Umar's as ten, 'Uthman's as twelve and 'Ali so and so. 

++++++

Infact we also have Abu Bakr (ra) missing out in the following but nobody is complaining

Muwatta Imam Malik
Yahya related to me from Malik that he had heard that Umar ibn al-Khattab and Ali ibn Abi Talib and Uthman ibn Affan drank while standing. 

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16 hours ago, Megatron said:

Brother @Faruk, I think you edited your thread since I first read it.

You asked was Ali only considered one of the first rightly guided Calipha because of Imam Ahmed?

No, he was always considered as one of the rightfully guided because Ali's rein was within the prophesied 30 years. The Prophet (SAW) said to the nearest meaning that in 30 years after his departure from the world will be rightly guided Caliphate, and then will come dynastic rule.

There, is however a dispute among Sunni Ulama whether Hassan can be considered as one of the rightfully guided. Many say he isn't because he retired, while the minority say otherwise. I'm with the latter.

Brother Megatron,

Can you please explain us why we don't see this in most of your ahaadith?

Why are only these three mentioned together and why is Imam Ali a.s. Always excluded and considered to be from a lower rank?

Narrated Ibn `Umar:
During the lifetime of the Prophet (ﷺ) we considered Abu Bakr as peerless and then `Umar and then `Uthman (coming next to him in superiority)
and then we used not to differentiate between the companions of the Prophet.

Just an example.

 

Edited by Faruk

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An for our sunni brothers in general:

Was Imam Ali a.s. during the Umayyad dynasties considered to be one of the rightly guided caliphs as well?

 

Edited by Faruk

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20 hours ago, `Umar bin `Ali said:

The above reports were selectively chosen by Faruk don't forget.

Dear brother Umar ibn Ali,

The only thing I did was that I went to sunnah.com and typed 'Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman' in the search option.

I guarantee you that if you do the same, exactly the same results will appear.  

After that you can do the same and then type Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and Ali.

You will not find much if not anything wherein Imam Ali a.s. is mentioned as an equal part of the former three if not excluded from these three.



 

Edited by Faruk

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4 hours ago, Faruk said:

Brother Megatron,

Can you please explain us why we don't see this in most of your ahaadith?

Why are only these three mentioned together and why is Imam Ali a.s. Always excluded and considered to be from a lower rank?

Narrated Ibn `Umar:
During the lifetime of the Prophet (ﷺ) we considered Abu Bakr as peerless and then `Umar and then `Uthman (coming next to him in superiority)
and then we used not to differentiate between the companions of the Prophet.

Just an example.

 

Brother Faruk, I believe brother 'Umar ibn 'Ali, and Bukhari8k's posts are sufficient to answer your question.

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23 hours ago, `Umar bin `Ali said:

1st Narration, it states that people used to view Abu Bakr as most suited for leadership, then `Umar and then `Uthman.

  • we used to say: 'Abu Bakr, and (then) 'Umar, and (then) 'Uthman.

Is it a surprise to you then that the people would choose Abu Bakr, then `Umar and then `Uthman after him when it comes to leadership? 

Is it a suprise that they fabricate that hadith in this order so the people would  believe that the order of the caliphate was a matter of free will and decision while in fact it was not?

These are only justifications as they had not any proof for divine appointment. Sow what they did is to make it appear as if it was at leat the will of the people.

And why was Imam Ali a.s. not mentioned. If you can mention the first three rightly guided caliphs then why leave the fourth out?

 

 

23 hours ago, `Umar bin `Ali said:

 

  • Allah's Messenger, Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman opened the Salat with

It's because they ruled in that order genius. Prophet -> Abu Bakr -> `Umar -> `Uthman. So in each era, each of em were the Imams of prayer and each of them in that respective order began Salat with Al-Hamd.

  • I accompanied Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) and he never offered more than two rak`at during the journey. Abu Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman used to do the same.

Same as above.

  • The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) used to say the takbir every time he got up, went down, stood and sat. Abu Bakr, 'Umar, and 'Uthman (did likewise)

Same as above.

And Imam Ali a.s. did not leave the (loud) Basmallah out. Do you understand now what this hadith is trying to say?

And again, why is Imam Ali a.s. not mentioned as he was the fourth of them?
 

 

23 hours ago, `Umar bin `Ali said:
  • Then Abu Bakr wore it after him, then 'Umar wore it after Abu Bakr, and the 'Uthman wore it after 'Umar till it fell down

That's the same case, it was inherited from leader to leader in that above order.  Prophet -> Abu Bakr -> `Umar -> `Uthman (fell in a well).

So Imam Ali a.s. never wore this ring. No problem anyway. The point is that this hadith is again only about the thee rightly guided caliphs.
 

 

23 hours ago, `Umar bin `Ali said:
  • The prophet of Allah (ﷺ) ascended Uhud, and Abu Bakr, ’Umar and 'Uthman followed him.

This one is a different case, while it is possible that they followed him in that order yet there's no evidence for this. The narrators were all used to this order that it became a habit, similar to saying Hasan wal- Husayn NOT al-Husayn wal-Hasan.

Even if Husayn followed the Prophet (saw) up the mountain before his older brother, the narrator would still say: "al-Hasan wal-Husayn followed him" as this was the habit.


One siddiq and two martyrs. Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman. And Uthman died as a martyr. Imam Ali a.s. died as martyr as well but again not mentioned. The fourth rightly guided caliph? Okay!
 

 

23 hours ago, `Umar bin `Ali said:

Now I do believe there're narrations where the Prophet (saw) did mention Abu Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman in that specific order, this to me signifies something and is a subtle sign as previously discussed.


That old subtle sign that shows us that it was actually a sort of Divine appointment. And then you guys want to show us the 'weakness' of the Ghaddir Khum hadith. Don't make me laugh please.

The funny thing is that you actually proved nothing. We still do not know why Imam Ali a.s. most of the time is not mentioned while you keep on repeating that it is exactly the order of the first three caliphates. Yes that already was clear for everyone but why was the fourth hardly mentioned? Not important enough? Was he a.s. from a diffirent kind?

He didn't wore the ring, he didn't followed the sunna, most of the time excluded.

To me this signifies something and is a subtle sign as well which can mean two things:

1) Compared with the three He a.s. wasn't important enough to mention

2) He a.s. was much more important compared to the three

It is clear that the contradicting reports from your friend Bukhari show us that there were diffirent trends in time and that all narrations became all mixed up.




 

Edited by Faruk

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These ahaadith are actually a blessing because they show us that Imam Ali a.s. has a special status.

Edited by Faruk

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I have already quoted some narrations in response to the allegation and i think i should quote a few more here (though there are many), to expose the deception in the OP @Megatron

 

Ibn Majah
It was narrated that Sa'eed bin Zaid bin 'Amr bin Nufail said:
"The Messenger of Allah was one of the Ten (given glad tidings of Paradise). He said: 'Abu Bakr will be in Paradise; 'Umar will be in Paradise; 'Uthman will be in Paradise; 'Ali will be in Paradise;
Sunan Nisai
It was narrated from Abu Malik Al-Ashja'i that his father said:
"I prayed behind the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) and he did not say the Qunut, and I prayed behind Abu Bakr and he did not say the Qunut, and I prayed behind Umar and he did not say the Qunut, and I prayed behind Uthman and he did not say the Qunut, and I prayed behind Ali and he did not say the Qunut."
Ibn Majah It was narrated that Sa'eed bin Zaid:
'I bear witness that I heard the Messenger of Allah say: 'Stand firm, O (mountain of) Hira', for there is no one upon you but a Prophet, a Siddiq or a martyr.' " Then he listed them as follows: "The Messenger of Allah, Abu Bakr, 'Umar, 'Uthman, 'Ali,
 
Tirmidhi
Narrated 'Abdur-Rahman bin 'Awf:
that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: "Abu Bakr is in Paradise, 'Umar is in Paradise, 'Uthman is in Paradise, 'Ali is in Paradise, 

Sahih Muslim

Abu Huraira reported:

Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) was upon the mountain of Hira, ' and there were along with him Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman. 'Ali,
 

Sahih Bukhari

Narrated Sa`d bin 'Ubaida:

A man came to Ibn `Umar and asked about `Uthman and Ibn `Umar mentioned his good deeds and said to the questioner. "Perhaps these facts annoy you?" The other said, "Yes." Ibn `Umar said, "May Allah stick your nose in the dust (i.e. degrade you)!' Then the man asked him about `Ali. Ibn `Umar mentioned his good deeds and said, "It is all true, and that is his house in the midst of the houses of the Prophet. Perhaps these facts have hurt you?" The questioner said, "Yes." Ibn `Umar said, "May Allah stick your nose in the dust (i.e. degrade you or make you do things which you hate) ! Go away and do whatever you can against me."

 

the narrations are too many but i guess these should be enough to dismiss the claim.
Edited by Bukhari8k

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1 hour ago, Bukhari8k said:
Ibn Majah

It was narrated that Sa'eed bin Zaid bin 'Amr bin Nufail said:

"The Messenger of Allah was one of the Ten (given glad tidings of Paradise). He said: 'Abu Bakr will be in Paradise; 'Umar will be in Paradise; 'Uthman will be in Paradise; 'Ali will be in Paradise;


What do you mean with deception Bukhari8k?

You posted only a part of the hadith of the Ten Promised Paradise and thereby tried to gave us the impression that it's about the 'Four Rightly Guided Caliphs' while in fact it's about ten people.

Narrated Abdur Rahman bin Awf:
that the Messenger of Allah said: "Abu Bakr is in Paradise, 'Umar is in Paradise, 'Uthman is in Paradise, 'Ali is in Paradise, Talhah is in Paradise, Az-Zubair is in Paradise, 'Abdur Rahman bin Awf is in Paradise, Sa'd bin Abi Waqqas is in Paradise, Sa'id ibn Zayd is in Paradise, and Abu 'Ubaidah bin Al-Jarrah is in Paradise."


 

1 hour ago, Bukhari8k said:
Sunan Nisai
It was narrated from Abu Malik Al-Ashja'i that his father said:
"I prayed behind the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) and he did not say the Qunut, and I prayed behind Abu Bakr and he did not say the Qunut, and I prayed behind Umar and he did not say the Qunut, and I prayed behind Uthman and he did not say the Qunut, and I prayed behind Ali and he did not say the Qunut."

This is indeed the exception that breaks the rule and again it appears to be a very positive one but again there is a snake in the grass. The qunut is a practice perfromed by Shia of Ali a.s. and with this hadith one gets the impression that not performing the qunut was something done by Imam Ali a.s. as well.
 

 

1 hour ago, Bukhari8k said:
Ibn Majah It was narrated that Sa'eed bin Zaid:
'I bear witness that I heard the Messenger of Allah say: 'Stand firm, O (mountain of) Hira', for there is no one upon you but a Prophet, a Siddiq or a martyr.' " Then he listed them as follows: "The Messenger of Allah, Abu Bakr, 'Umar, 'Uthman, 'Ali,


Again, what do you mean with deception Bulhari8k?

You did not gave the full list but stopped with Imam Ali a.s. as if they form a quartet instead of a trinity.

In fact the list goes on and mentions a few other companions as well:

It was narrated that Sa'eed bin Zaid:

'I bear witness that I heard the Messenger of Allah say: 'Stand firm, O (mountain of) Hira', for there is no one upon you but a Prophet, a Siddiq or a martyr.' " Then he listed them as follows: "The Messenger of Allah, Abu Bakr, 'Umar, 'Uthman, 'Ali, Talhah, Zubair, Sa'd, Ibn 'Awf and Sa'eed bin Zaid."

Sounds almost like the hadith of the Ten with this time only eight of them mentioned.

More important is that the emphasis in other versions  is on the Sunni Trinity Abu Bakr-Umar-Uthman.The only diffirence is that this time it's not Mount Hira but Mount Uhud. :

Narrated Anas bin Malik:

The Prophet (ﷺ) ascended the mountain of Uhud and he was accompanied by Abu Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman. The mountain shook beneath them. The Prophet (ﷺ) hit it with his foot and said, "O Uhud ! Be firm, for on you there is none but a Prophet, a Siddiq and a martyr (i.e. and two martyrs).

The examples are too many but i guess these should be enough to dismiss the claim.

Brother Megatron. I advice you to do investigation yourself and be critical.



 

Edited by Faruk

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8 hours ago, Faruk said:


What do you mean with deception Bukhari8k?

You posted only a part of the hadith of the Ten Promised Paradise and thereby tried to gave us the impression that it's about the 'Four Rightly Guided Caliphs' while in fact it's about ten people.

how can you have such an impression when the hadith starts with the following words and then i had also left semicolon for superficial.

9 hours ago, Bukhari8k said:

Ibn Majah

It was narrated that Sa'eed bin Zaid bin 'Amr bin Nufail said:
"The Messenger of Allah was one of the Ten (given glad tidings of Paradise). He said: 'Abu Bakr will be in Paradise; 'Umar will be in Paradise; 'Uthman will be in Paradise; 'Ali will be in Paradise;

Also your opening posts is about why the fourth caliph is always left out in our narrations when we praise the others... on one end we have produced the narrations to refute however you now perhaps demand that the list in a couple of those narrations should not consist more than the four. Thats unfair.

Edited by Bukhari8k

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On 27 September 2016 at 9:03 AM, Megatron said:

Brother @Faruk, I think you edited your thread since I first read it.

You asked was Ali only considered one of the first rightly guided Calipha because of Imam Ahmed?

No, he was always considered as one of the rightfully guided because Ali's rein was within the prophesied 30 years. The Prophet (SAW) said to the nearest meaning that in 30 years after his departure from the world will be rightly guided Caliphate, and then will come dynastic rule.

There, is however a dispute among Sunni Ulama whether Hassan can be considered as one of the rightfully guided. Many say he isn't because he retired, while the minority say otherwise. I'm with the latter.

The Master of Youth of Paradise is not rightfully guided according to the majority of Sunni Uluma?

A question out of curiosity, why are you with the latter?

Edited by Alzaynebia313

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23 hours ago, Alzaynebia313 said:

The Master of Youth of Paradise is not rightfully guided according to the majority of Sunni Uluma?

A question out of curiosity, why are you with the latter?

Ameer ul Momineen Al-Hasan Ibn Ali is considered as 5th rightly guided by many yet his caliphate was quite short-lived and may be that is the reason why some forget to notice that his 6 months as a ruler falls within the timeframe given in authentic Sunni hadith on the rightly guided caliphs. When Jamhoor Ahlus Sunnah says that the rule of Muawiya (ra) was the beginning of malookiyat/kingship amongst Muslims then that automatically means that Imam Hasan rule was not malookiyat but caliphate Rashidah.

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2 hours ago, Bukhari8k said:

Ameer ul Momineen Al-Hasan Ibn Ali is considered as 5th rightly guided by many yet his caliphate was quite short-lived and may be that is the reason why some forget to notice that his 6 months as a ruler falls within the timeframe given in authentic Sunni hadith on the rightly guided caliphs. When Jamhoor Ahlus Sunnah says that the rule of Muawiya (ra) was the beginning of malookiyat/kingship amongst Muslims then that automatically means that Imam Hasan rule was not malookiyat but caliphate Rashidah.

Yes but @Megatron said majority of Sunni Ulema are not definite in considering Rasool Allah's grandson a rightfully guided Khalifa, which is shocking and problematic.

Also do not say (ra) after Muawiya. You say it after Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman and we do not mind but do not think Allah is pleased with the enemies of Rasool Allah and his Ahlul Bayt. 

Edited by Alzaynebia313

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