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Megatron

Matam

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13 minutes ago, Abu_Rumaysah said:

Could you please elaborate on highlighted part? Does it mean that whatever been recommended in the shia shariah 30 years ago, could be prohibited today?

As I pointed out to you rather patiently I would add. Blood letting is a new practice only about 200 years old. Some senior clerics 50 odd years ago thought it was a commendable act. Others urged caution.

In 2016 this is a very contentious issue . You are being rather simplistic in assuming it was allowed then not allowed

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8 minutes ago, Abu_Rumaysah said:

 

Well talking about majalis, I strognly recommend you and other shias to read book by Murtada Muttahari on karbala. He highlighted there lots of problems with such majalis.

Theater, I don't know how with shia Islam, in our way proffesion of actor is prohibited in itself. 
 
 

 

 

 

Again gross over simplification. Do you think these issues aren't discussed or known and different stances taken within the Shia fraternity. Muttahari was Shia

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3 minutes ago, A true Sunni said:

Again gross over simplification. Do you think these issues aren't discussed or known and different stances taken within the Shia fraternity. Muttahari was Shia

Yes exactly, and Ayatollah Murtada Muttahari wasn't even talking about the majalis itself, only that there are some who sadly don't only narrate authentic stories, but unauthentic ones as well:

It is essential to mention a point at first, and that is that the people are responsible in all these cases. You folks who attend the majalis5 sessions imagine that you have no responsibility in this regard, and think that it is only the speakers who are responsible. The people have two major responsibilities. 

The first is that of nahy 'anil-munkar (forbidding what is wrong) which is obligatory for all. When they find out and know-and most of the time they do know!-that a narrative is untrue, they should not sit in that gathering. It is forbidden to sit in such gatherings and one must protest against them. 

Secondly, they must try to get rid of the eagerness and expectation which the hosts as well as the audience attending the majalis have for the majlis to become fervid, that there should be impassioned mourning and the majlis should get feverish with cries of the mourners. The poor speaker knows that if he were to say only things that are true and authentic, the majlis would not get into a frenzy and the same people will not invite him again. Hence he is compelled to add something.

https://www.al-islam.org/al-tawhid/vol13-no4/ashura-misrepresentations-distortions-part-2-mutahhari

 

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3 minutes ago, Abu_Rumaysah said:

But sunnah is the only way for all of us. Is there any report that prophet (saws) mourned for 40 days each year for Jafar or Hamzah? I am not talking about c/p from peshawar nightmares and etc. About real sound evidence from ahadeth.

Why do you need hadeeth on mourning for 40 days. Let me tell you, we mourn Imam Hussain (a.s.) round the year. In every majalis that is held (e.g. Friday night or on Sunday) after aalim deliver his lecture, last part comes the masaeb of Sayyadush Shohadah. Why do you see problem in that.

 

9 minutes ago, Abu_Rumaysah said:

Well talking about majalis, I strognly recommend you and other shias to read book by Murtada Muttahari on karbala. He highlighted there lots of problems with such majalis.

So, should we stop that or weed out the problem? Problems with an Aalim doing Tableegh or with zikr-e-Ahlulbait (ams)?

 

 

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Let me make it even more clear.

1) Yes, as it has been reported our beloved prophet (saws) cried for Imam Husayn. 

2) No, it was not reported that he use to do this each year.

3) During his lifetime, our beloved lost some closest companions, including hz Hamza, and hz Jafar ibn Abu Talib. IT WAS NOT reported that he mourn for them month or 40 days, and IT WAS not reported that he mourn for them each year.

I strongly believe that NONE from modern day shias loves hz Husayn more than he was beloved by his great grandfather, prophet Muhammad (saws). If keeping 40 days each year as a mourning, making majalis that time, beating chests, and etc would be recommended practise, Prophet (saws) without any doubt would do that in the very first place, to show example to his nation. I will leave aside so

me lunatics that believe that Allah himself first made matam, or made marsiyah for hz Husayn. I hope, here at this forum, I am not amongst such lunatics.

Yes, read the life of sayidina Husayn, take examples from his life. Try to live like he did. Cry if you can cry due to his brutal murder. But don't violate sunnah of his grandfather. I remember when at my job place, one scotich guy tried to mock me by saying that he seen these shia matams and self flagelations. He thought that - may Allah forbids, all muslims acting in this way. It took some time to explain him that these acts are not from Islam, and actually been condemned by our beloved prophet (saws).

While talking about majalis and azadaris, Mutahhari said:

How many legends have been fabricated by us Shi'is about Amir al Mu'minin 'Ali, many Peace be upon him! 

https://www.al-islam.org/al-tawhid/vol13-no3/ashura-misrepresentations-distortions-part-1-mutahhari/second-sermon-ashura#factors-tahrif

 

 

 

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Abu_Rumaysah said:

Let me make it even more clear.

1) Yes, as it has been reported our beloved prophet (saws) cried for Imam Husayn. 

2) No, it was not reported that he use to do this each year.

3) During his lifetime, our beloved lost some closest companions, including hz Hamza, and hz Jafar ibn Abu Talib. IT WAS NOT reported that he mourn for them month or 40 days, and IT WAS not reported that he mourn for them each year.

I strongly believe that NONE from modern day shias loves hz Husayn more than he was beloved by his great grandfather, prophet Muhammad (saws). If keeping 40 days each year as a mourning, making majalis that time, beating chests, and etc would be recommended practise, Prophet (saws) without any doubt would do that in the very first place, to show example to his nation. I will leave aside so

me lunatics that believe that Allah himself first made matam, or made marsiyah for hz Husayn. I hope, here at this forum, I am not amongst such lunatics.

Yes, read the life of sayidina Husayn, take examples from his life. Try to live like he did. Cry if you can cry due to his brutal murder. But don't violate sunnah of his grandfather. I remember when at my job place, one scotich guy tried to mock me by saying that he seen these shia matams and self flagelations. He thought that - may Allah forbids, all muslims acting in this way. It took some time to explain him that these acts are not from Islam, and actually been condemned by our beloved prophet (saws).

While talking about majalis and azadaris, Mutahhari said:

How many legends have been fabricated by us Shi'is about Amir al Mu'minin 'Ali, many Peace be upon him! 

https://www.al-islam.org/al-tawhid/vol13-no3/ashura-misrepresentations-distortions-part-1-mutahhari/second-sermon-ashura#factors-tahrif

 

 

 

 

 

 

Brother, one must realise that shias get their hadith from the imams as well. They have clearly stated that crying for imam husayn carries great reward. And only crying for him is allowed.

The prophet (s) would not make this news open in his life time. Some things aren't told to everyone until it takes place. And prophet who would know the details of that event can cry over it before hand unlike anyone.

 

Satan wasn't openly cursed either, not until he did the deed. This is just an analogy to help you understand. 

Anyway as for self flagellation, it has no part in sunnah of the imams either. 

But the Islamic shria needs definite proof to ban something and consider it haram.

The jaloos and events where zanjeer zani takes place or that of 'jalsa' what are the islamic rulings on how to demonstrate in a jalsa?

 

But then again this thread was for matam and not blood letting.

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21 minutes ago, Abu_Rumaysah said:

2) No, it was not reported that he use to do this each year.

He didn't even perform hajj each year, you could.

 

25 minutes ago, Abu_Rumaysah said:

making majalis that time

Majalis basically means gathering. An aalim ascends the pulpit and start delivering lecture about deen in the light of Ahadeeth and Riwayaat. Did not the prophet (sawa) used to do that.

30 minutes ago, Abu_Rumaysah said:

beating chests

Kanz al-Umal, Volume 15 page 731:

عن عبد الله بن عكرمة قال : عجبا لقول الناس إن عمر بن الخطاب نهى عن النوح ! لقد بكى على خالد بن الوليد بمكة والمدينة نساء بني المغيرة سبعا يشققن الجيوب ويضربن الوجوه وأطعموا الطعام تلك الايام حتى مضت ما ينهاهن عمر

Abdullah bin Akrema said: “I am wondering for the people tale that Umar bin al-Khatab prohibited mourning! In Makka and Madina, the women of Bani Mughira (tribe) cried over Khalid bin al-Walid for seven days, they tore the front opening of the shirts and beat the cheeks and feed the people and Umar didn’t prohibit them”

See your master didn't objected to beating cheeks. Now please don't peel the skin of hair by differentiating chest and cheek.

 

 

Our Imam (a.s.) has okayed the weeping and chest beating and it suffice us:

Narrated from Hasan ibn Ali ibn Abi Hamzah, from his father who said:

عن أبي عبدالله عليه السلام قال : سمعته يقول : إنَّ البكاء والجزع مكروهٌ للعبد في كلِّ ما جزع ما خلا البكاء والجزع على الحسين بن عليّ عليهما السلام ، فإنّه فيه مأجورٌ

Abu Abdillah (Imam Sadiq (as)) said:

"Crying and JAZA* is Makruh for the slaves (of Allah) over any matter except crying and Jaza over Husain ibn Ali (as). Verily the one who cries and acts impatiently over Husain (as) will be rewarded."

[Source: Kamil Az Ziyarat Chapter. 32 Hadees:2]


*JAZA - uneasiness, restlessness and acting impatiently. Some examples include wearing black clothes and hitting the chests or things over a tragedy.

(Author of Kamil Az Ziyarat has included only authentic narrations)

 

49 minutes ago, Abu_Rumaysah said:

keeping 40 days each year as a mourning

Man. You're stuck on 40 days. Prophet Yaqub (a.s) cried for Prophet Yusuf (a.s.) for 40 years. Imam Sajjad (a.s.) cried on Imam Hussain (a.s.) for 40 years. Janabe Fatema Zahra (s.a.) cried for her father until she left this world. Prophet (sawa) declare the whole year of passing away of Hazrat Abu Talib (a.s.) as 'Aamul Huzn' (year of grief). etc..

No one has defined time limit and no one has put a time frame. So chill.

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Lover of Ahlulbait (ams) said:
7 hours ago, Megatron said:

Thanks for your input. Can, you provide a reference from your sources where the Prophet (SAW) narrated the incident to rest of his family after hearing it from Jibreel?

Ashi'a min Hayat al-lmam al-Hassan bin Ali (a.s.) (Glimpses of the Life of Imam Hassan bin Ali (a.s.), (Tehran: Al-Balagh Foundation).

Probably in Alam-ul-wara by Shaykh Tabarasi (ra)

and many other secondary books.

Add this.

When Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.) informed Lady Fatimah (A.S.) about the martyrdom of Imam Hussain (A.S.) and the sufferings he will face, she cried and asked: "O father! When will this tragedy take place?" Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.) replied: "At a time when you, Ali, and I have left this world."
Upon hearing such, Lady Fatimah's (A.S.) tears intensified, "O father! Then who cry for my son, and who will hold mourning ceremonies for him?"
The Prophet (S.A.W.) answered: "My daughter! Verily the women of my nation will cry for the women of my Ahl al-Bayt; the men of my nation will cry for the men of my Ahl al-Bayt; and year after year, groups of people will revive this ceremony.

- Bihar al Anwar, vol. 44, pp. 292 & 293

There is one more similar and detailed riwayat. I'll post that if I can get hold of.

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