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DigitalUmmah

Mallangs - Time to bury the hatchet

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Brother shiaman14

How many times do I have to repeat myself, are you people not reading or what.

Brother A true Sunni is a shia, I even post name of book..(hits his forehead) and you brothers still insist on calling him a sunni or a new convert.

I hope you all are not using these tactics to silence him. A shia never would. 

For all you know our forefathers might have gone in taqiyya and his might have stood the course. So kindly do not misjudge and or misrepresent for these are not signs of shias.

let us continue with our discussion like brothers.

PS. Shias stay humble and do not say things like I am Syed from both sides, you mean Najib ul Tarafian (so backward) or someone saying he is the bees knees of the biggest blades zanjir zan. Humility is our name. ...I hope not to cause offence to anyone and hope I have not offended you bro. Was just trying to drive home an important lesson/point.

Salawat bar Muhammad(sawws) and Ali Muhammad(as)

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1 hour ago, magma said:

Slippery slope. 

so true in that what we are saying, even if we use  malang as an adjective,  is that a Shia is not complete. 

Bro shiaman14 a Shia is the most complete and most beautiful(dare I say too Muslim) title for a person. 

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1 hour ago, magma said:

Slippery slope. 

How so? 

The dichotomy in the Muslims, the shias and sunnis, started from the time of ghadeer, Imamat of Imam Ali a.s, usurping of the rights of Bibi Fatima (a.s) and continued in the form of oppression of Ahlebayt (a.s) spanning centuries, yet shias including you have embraced the concept of unity with Sunnis. Why do I fail to see the same level acceptance for your shia brothers? I have not seen such hostility and malevolence towards sunnis and even wahabbis in the shia sunni forum as is being displayed here, sadly. 

Are the differences here really that big that they make usurping of rights of Ahlebayt (a.s) seem small in comparison?? 

I don't need an answer. It just something you and other should think about. 

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3 hours ago, A true Sunni said:

I am not insulted . So no need for any actions. To be honest I stopped reading when you were justifying murdering and sacrificing children by saying that the parents were trying to save Islam. 

If those parents existed who handed over their children so they could go on Ziarat they should be reviled not revered

You asked for proof. I supplied 1 oral and 2 written but that was not sufficient. It is truly sad that I expected this reaction when in reality I should have been expecting something like, "Thank you ShiaMan for the sacrifices your ancestors made to get Shiaism where it is today."

 

1 hour ago, haideriam said:

let us continue with our discussion like brothers.

PS. Shias stay humble and do not say things like I am Syed from both sides, you mean Najib ul Tarafian (so backward) or someone saying he is the bees knees of the biggest blades zanjir zan. Humility is our name. ...I hope not to cause offence to anyone and hope I have not offended you bro. Was just trying to drive home an important lesson/point.

Salawat bar Muhammad(sawws) and Ali Muhammad(as)

I know brother @A true Sunni is a shia. I am not the one doubting the sacrifices our ancestors made to get us to where we are today, he is. Perhaps you can enlighten him about our history.

1 hour ago, haideriam said:

PS. Shias stay humble and do not say things like I am Syed from both sides, you mean Najib ul Tarafian (so backward) or someone saying he is the bees knees of the biggest blades zanjir zan. Humility is our name. ...I hope not to cause offence to anyone and hope I have not offended you bro. Was just trying to drive home an important lesson/point.

I have over 2,000+ posts and this is the first time I mentioned this. For a while, my signature used to say, "Being a Syed is not an achievement but a responsibility". By no means do I use this a quality of mine simply because I had no choice or say in this matter. I did mean Najeeb Ul Tarafain but did not use the term since plenty are not familiar with it.

And you are right. My tone was wrong for which I apologize. I accept and understand when Sunnis downplay our history, but our own shia question our history and question our Imam - that I do not accept nor should any shia. Humility would have been A True Sunni saying, "Can I please get a fact check on this event brother?" Challenging me to bring proof and then rejecting all 3 of them is not humility is it? 

41 minutes ago, magma said:

I'll give an answer anyway, because there is a lot misunderstanding and conflation going on here.  This may be long, but we need to get it all out (again). First of all, it is a slippery slope to say as shiaman14 said....

"Here is the difference between a malang and a non-malang. Even if a malang does not know the above formula, he would accept Imam's decision(s) without question. A non-malang would question and even doubt Imam for his decisions."

I think the "differences" between Shias seem pretty big when phrased this way. Is this (not subtly) implying only "malangs"(trademark) have complete trust in the words of the Imams (a), while others are weak and wavering, bogged down by impurities? At face value, it seems like an admirable trait. But is it? Is it not just blind faith, something this religion and the Imams themselves would likely condemn? What usefulness is this to anybody? We've seen this slippery slope before in history, the infamous "g" word. Slippery slope arguments are very polarizing I know, some embrace them and others resist them. But it is what it is. If the "malang" wants "unity" with me, then give me assurance this isn't the case. Or we can just drop the business cards altogether. 

I agree with the rest of your comments brother @magma. The above I need clarification on.

Can we question the decision or the ruling of an Imam/Masoom/Prophet? Yes!

Should we question the ruling of an Imam/Masoom/Prophet? No? For example, we malign Caliph Umar for questioning the Prophet at Hudaibiya. His questioning went from why are we doing this to is he even a Prophet. Surely, you are not saying this is acceptable. Can you give examples of when a Masoom was questioned and it was acceptable? I will cite some other examples of "ita'at":

  • Malik Al-Ashtar is virtually at Muawiya base camp. Imam recalls him. It doesn't make sense. The battle could be over in a matter of minutes should Malik clip off Muawiya's head. But Malik complies.
  • Same battle - Muawiya's men stop access to water; Imam Ali's troops re-take access and want to stop access for Muawiya's men. People questioned Imam Ali but he overruled.
  • Karbala - Umar Bin Sa'ad wants to remove Imam Hussain's camp from water; Hz Abbas wants to fight but Imam says no and he immediately complies.
49 minutes ago, magma said:

And finally, we have to remember there is a distinct subcontinent context here, and that carries a big influence in this discussion, given certain historical and political realities. But as you know, 5.5 out of 7 people on Earth live somewhere else. 

for the record - born in UAE, raised in UK, live in US.

I am done with this thread as there is nothing more to be said. Wallahi if I have offended anyone, then I seek your forgiveness.

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4 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

 

2) short proof:
In 234 A.H. came one of the most tyrannical rulers of the Abbasid Khilafate - Mutawakkil. He ruled with tyranny, killing, looting and terrorising especially those who were the followers of Ahlulbayt. Mutawakkil is also the one who ordered the desecration of the grave of Imam Husayn (a.s.) wanting to remove Imam's body and burn it (He did not succeed). He tried running water over the grave so no traces of the grave would remain but was unsuccessful. He ordered that all those wanting to visit Kerbala would have their fingers cut off, then hand and feet cut then only be able to go if one other from the family was killed. Imam still asked Shias to visit Kerbala. When Mutawakkil saw that all had failed and it did not discourage the visits than he banned all visits to Kerbala completely.
http://www.imamreza.net/eng/imamreza.php?print=6456

 

Absolutely and completely disagree with the underlined bit. Do you really think you are teaching me new stuff. Its an insult to the Imams who tried to save the followers lives not waste them

Shias have Taqiya. What is Taqiya? What is its purpose?.

Which Imam still asked Shias to visit Karbala and where is the written proof. I am not interested in narrations such as these. I want the proofs from the original sources.

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3 minutes ago, A true Sunni said:

Absolutely and completely disagree with the underlined bit. Do you really think you are teaching me new stuff. Its an insult to the Imams who tried to save the followers lives not waste them

Shias have Taqiya. What is Taqiya? What is its purpose?.

Which Imam still asked Shias to visit Karbala and where is the written proof. I am not interested in narrations such as these. I want the proofs from the original sources.

Take it up with  info@imamreza.net  and  english@imamreza.net . When you don't get a satisfactory answer from them, move elsewhere.

The onus is on you now prove this did not happen.

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2 minutes ago, A true Sunni said:

You quoted it. You prove it. 

I dont think you understand how debates work.

@shiaman14 provided the source, its YOUR job to prove its false or not. thats what a debate IS.

btw you not liking it because it goes against what you believe does not constitute as proof

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by the way the Imam Reza Network site is run by the office of sayed sistani. it is reliable.

http://www.imamreza.net/eng/imamreza.php?id=78

Quote

Imam Reza (A.S.) Network affiliated to Aalul Bayt(A.S.) Global Center for Information with the grace of Allah Almighty wants to present the ideals and sublime teachings of Islam. This site is maintained by Imam Reza(A.S.) Network to highlight various dimensions of Islam as it has been taught and practiced by the Holy Prophet of Islam (S.A.W.) and the Holy Ahlul Bayt (A.S.).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Aalulbayt_(a.s.)_Global_Information_Center

Quote

The Ahlulbayt (a.s.) Global Information Center is an organization under the supervision of the office of Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani.[1] While they themselves include "(as)" in their organization title,[1] some omit it.[2]

It is based out of Qom, run by sayed sistanis office, and managed by his son in law. content is certainly created by reliable scholars.

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Sorry bro DU

debates work by providing original sources and not leaving the onus on the other party without having proven it first.

Your next post is slightly more interesting and is worth investigating and asking questions from.

But bro A true Sunni we are not debating but merely discussing, why don't you send them an email asking for original sources as a favour to us all.

Maybe bro @Qa'im or bro Nader Zaveri might be able to help.

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11 minutes ago, haideriam said:

Sorry bro DU

debates work by providing original sources and not leaving the onus on the other party without having proven it first.

Your next post is slightly more interesting and is worth investigating and asking questions from.

But bro A true Sunni we are not debating but merely discussing, why don't you send them an email asking for original sources as a favour to us all.

so in your mind, a person presents a proof, and then himself has to prove it is not reliable?

how many years have you been on shiachat for now.....?

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11 minutes ago, DigitalUmmah said:

so in your mind, a person presents a proof, and then himself has to prove it is not reliable?

how many years have you been on shiachat for now.....?

looks like you don't know what a proof is. 

It is not just some statement from a site, it is the original source material with authentication. 

Does Ayatullah Sistani take 100% responsibility of all material presented on the site as authentic or is that only for his official site dealing with his material and his fatwas. 

sadly you are lost and more dumb than I thought.

 

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1 hour ago, DigitalUmmah said:

I dont think you understand how debates work.

@shiaman14 provided the source, its YOUR job to prove its false or not. thats what a debate IS.

btw you not liking it because it goes against what you believe does not constitute as proof

Dont lecture me on how debates work . You have flip flopped so many times its unreal

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1 hour ago, DigitalUmmah said:

so in your mind, a person presents a proof, and then himself has to prove it is not reliable?

how many years have you been on shiachat for now.....?

random statements on a site are not proof. Look at how many times the case of the veil after 10th Moharram has been discussed or quoted. On investigation we find these sources are Sunni and contradict other sources

So original sources please 

Edited by A true Sunni

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