Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
Sign in to follow this  
Haydar Husayn

The anti-tatbeer crowd might enjoy this

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

From the Bible, in 1 Kings 18:

Quote

 

25 Elijah said to the prophets of Baal, “Choose one of the bulls and prepare it first, since there are so many of you. Call on the name of your god, but do not light the fire.” 26 So they took the bull given them and prepared it.

Then they called on the name of Baal from morning till noon. “Baal, answer us!” they shouted. But there was no response; no one answered. And they danced around the altar they had made.

27 At noon Elijah began to taunt them. “Shout louder!” he said. “Surely he is a god! Perhaps he is deep in thought, or busy, or traveling. Maybe he is sleeping and must be awakened.” 28 So they shouted louder and slashed themselves with swords and spears, as was their custom, until their blood flowed. 29 Midday passed, and they continued their frantic prophesying until the time for the evening sacrifice. But there was no response, no one answered, no one paid attention.

 

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Kings+18

Looks like people have been doing this for a long time, if not always those on the right side.

 

Disclaimer for the usual suspects: this post should in no way be construed as an argument that tatbeer is haram, so don't bother pointing out that this is in the Bible and hence has no relevance to us. I simply found it interesting, and thought some others would too. If you don't, then nobody is forcing you to respond.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Erm... I don't do either of those things...

Ok, in hinduism specially those people who belongs to desert side of India, when someone dies in their community they call special people for crying on that dead person. 

Now enjoy yourself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Sajjad Zaidi said:

Ok, in hinduism specially those people who belongs to desert side of India, when someone dies in their community they call special people for crying on that dead person. 

Now enjoy yourself.

Why would you call special people to cry for a dead person? That isn't grief, it's performance.

Anyway, just stop with the dumb analogies. It's becoming painful. If you have a problem with what I've posted, then either say something intelligent, or move on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Sajjad Zaidi said:

They're known as "Rodalli's", it is their profession to cry for the dead.

Ok, and are there people who's profession it is to cry for Imam Husayn (a)?

Anyway, since you don't seem capable of just letting this go without comment, let me point a few things out to you. Shia Muslims only started using swords and chains to hit themselves a few hundred years ago (at most). Prior to that, the only people that did it were various Christian sects and pagans. For some unknown reason that I can't understand, some Shias decided to adopt this practice (i.e. imitating the kuffar). Over time, this became a widespread cultural practice in much of the Shia world, and now we have people defending this as if it is written in the Qur'an itself. This is simply a cultural practice, with dubious origins, and just because some people want to attach it to legitimate religious practices (mourning for Imam Husayn), it doesn't mean that it becomes above criticism.

 

3 minutes ago, Sajjad Zaidi said:

This is the response of your dumb analogy and the dumb disclaimer.

This makes no sense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Ok, and are there people who's profession it is to cry for Imam Husayn (a)?

You have not mentioned the name of my Master (may my soul be sacrify on him) in your post, why you're asking about this matter by taking his name?

Do you forgot the dua of Syeda Zainab (s.a)?  Allah will create a nation who will cry for Imam Hussain (a.s) 

What Imam Al-Sadiq (a.s) told you? If you're unable to shed tears, then at least make you facial impressions like you're crying.

Edited by Sajjad Zaidi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Sajjad Zaidi said:

You have not mentioned the name of my Master (may my soul be sacrify on him) in your post, why you're asking about this matter by taking his name?

Do you fogot the dua of Syeda Zainab (s.a)?  Allah will create a nation who will cry for Imam Hussain (a.s)

What Imam Al-Sadiq (a.s) told you? If you're unable to shed tears, then at least make you facial impressions like you're crying.

What does this have to do with crying as a profession?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Haydar Husayn said:

What does this have to do with crying as a profession?

You hire a scholor or Zakir, who tells you the masaib of Imam Hussain (a.s), then you cry. It makes you quite similar to those Rodalli's of India.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, Dhulfikar said:

Whenever I read about such a customs, it always comes from the Shirk sides.

So your brothers in faith are mushrik?

Those who unable to control their emotions & their grief are mushriks for you? 

That is shameful indeed. Seems to me that some people have created ISIS in Shia's. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Sajjad Zaidi said:

So your brothers in faith are mushrik?

Those who unable to control their emotions & their grief are mushriks for you? 

That is shameful indeed. Seems to me that some people have created ISIS in Shia's. 

No where I even implied that Shias are mushrik nor did I say that the act is Haram.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Dhulfikar said:

No where I even implied that Shias are mushrik nor did I say that the act is Haram.

 

1 hour ago, Dhulfikar said:

Whenever I read about such a customs, it always comes from the Shirk sides.

 

1 hour ago, Haydar Husayn said:

For some unknown reason that I can't understand, some Shias decided to adopt this practice (i.e. imitating the kuffar). Over time, this became a widespread cultural practice in much of the Shia world, and now we have people defending this as if it is written in the Qur'an itself.

These two references are sufficient.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Sajjad Zaidi said:

 

 

These two references are sufficient.

What are you even talking about. The people who did such a practice, they were kafirs because they were worshiping other gods. Imitating an act that is done by Kafirs does not necessary mean that the person is a mushrik. We are talking about the nature of these behavior that came before the Shias started to imitated them. These acts came from Mushriks, not from the Believers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why we should express our love through these acts? And why we should cheer or support these acts that in history they have always come from kafir and shirk people? And why these kafirs express their love exactly with these acts toward their gods?

Edited by Dhulfikar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Dhulfikar said:

We are talking about the nature of these behavior that came before the Shias started to imitated them. These acts came from Mushriks, not from the Believers.

You got the reference of Rodalli's in response to that. Emotions does not have any faith my brother.

A mushrik shed tears, a momin also shed tears. Everyone has his own rules of love, a simple request to you is that dont compare the grief & sorrow of your brothers in faith with mushrikeen.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Sajjad Zaidi said:

You got the reference of Rodalli's in response to that. Emotions does not have any faith my brother.

What do you even mean that Emotions does not have any faith?

Quote

A mushrik shed tears, a momin also shed tears. Everyone has his own rules of love, a simple request to you is that dont compare the grief & sorrow of your brothers in faith with mushrikeen.

I can only see different people do the same practice but one express their love for shirk gods and one express for his Imam. This practice came from Mushriks. If this practice is natural or great, why did not Imams, Prophets, Messengers of God express their love with this practice?

Edited by Dhulfikar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Dhulfikar said:

This practice came from Mushriks

Last month, I attended a janazah of a 16 years old boy. When his body brought to his mother, she started to hit her head with the wall & got herself injured. Her blood came out, she was crying and remembering the son of Imam Hussain (a.s) at that moment. 

The emotions sometimes can become so intense that the person experiencing such emotions comes in the boundaries of "junoon" & become "majnoon".

Our Imams (peace be upon them all) are the perfect human beings, neither they are majnoon nor they act as majnoons.

For common people, the incident of Karbala effects differently. I know such people when they hear the masaib of Imam Hussain, they got majnoon (dont know its correct translation, something like crazy), they beat themselves so badly that they bleed.

This is just emotional imbalance, dont try to ignite a fire here. Your statement is targeting your own scholors, and you are trying to impose the ruling of Ayatullah Khamenei (r.a) on everyone.

This is not the way, saying that anti tatbir crowd would enjoy that. And comparing the emotions of your brothers with kafirs, mushriks.

This topic has been discussed several times here and i dont want to involve in this matter anymore.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The whole 'people hit themselves with swords because they are delirious with grief' argument might make some sense if it weren't for the fact that people spend the evening before sharpening those swords. It's a premeditated act, just as most of these rituals are. Grief is spontaneous, not premeditated.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My humble opinion is that with crying we don't get anywhere. Why don't we follow the ideals of Imam Hussain a.s. instead of crying over and over again every year and after that joining table for dinner?

Don't get me wrong. My heart cries when I think about the Tragedy (not one day in the year but spontaneous moments) and after the Prophet s.a.w.a.s. His Household a.s. concerns me the most but this crying must transform into positive action and motivation.

All humans are caliphs. Does anyone knows what that mean?

Edited by Faruk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Faruk said:

My humble opinion is that with crying we don't get anywhere. Why don't we follow the ideals of Imam Hussain a.s. instead of crying over and over again and after that joining table for dinner?

This dhikr will continue and we will continue to shed tears. This is Allah's will:

 

Surah As-Saaffat, Verse 107:

وَفَدَيْنَاهُ بِذِبْحٍ عَظِيمٍ

And We ransomed him with a Feat sacrifice.

Surah As-Saaffat, Verse 108:

وَتَرَكْنَا عَلَيْهِ فِي الْآخِرِينَ

And We perpetuated (praise) to him among the later generations.

This is the teachings of Syeda Zainab (s.a) and the teachings of our Imams (a.s)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

For common people, the incident of Karbala effects differently. I know such people when they hear the masaib of Imam Hussain, they got majnoon (dont know its correct translation, something like crazy), they beat themselves so badly that they bleed.

And it is this same craziness that is dangerous thing in Muharram, with this craziness new thing have been imitated from Hindus and different cultures and even innovated new practices. Now there are fire-coal walking show, mud show, latmiyah choreography etc. It's have become an premeditated  act.

It is sad to bring an example of a mother who lost his son, which she truly feels what it means to lose own son, to these people.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Dhulfikar said:

And it is this same craziness that is dangerous thing in Muharram, with this craziness new thing have been imitated from Hindus and different cultures and even innovated new practices. Now there are fire-coal walking show, mud show, latmiyah choreography etc. It's have become an premeditated  act.

Better check youself, what you people are inventing! A division among brothers, comparing kufr with emaan.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Dhulfikar said:

It's have become an premeditated  act

You're claiming to have knowledge of unseen, you're aware of the secrets of hearts?

Some may do that premeditated but not all. Those who beat their chests, do that premaditatedly, they beat themselves with their hands so much that their chests starts to bleed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Dhulfikar said:

Because this whole practice was an imitation.

That's what you think and you are inventing new stories too.

Those who do tatbir, they never opened up the bible in their life. Their "niyat" is different & their affiliation is also different.

This is you who want to impose your opinion on them & comparing the kufr with emaan.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Sajjad Zaidi said:

You're claiming to have knowledge of unseen, you're aware of the secrets of hearts?

No.

Quote

Some may do that premeditated but not all. Those who beat their chests, do that premaditatedly, they beat themselves with their hands so much that their chests starts to bleed.

How do you know it is exactly "Some"? How does beating one chest so much that it bleeds imply that he is not acting or doing it out of his hearth?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...