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Haydar Husayn

The anti-tatbeer crowd might enjoy this

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gosh darn it. I was about to start on this thread. I guess I will let it go since there seems to be peace.

Although I do wonder why the Anti-Tatbeer+Pro-Unity crowd is always missing from the Shia/Sunni thread to defend our faith. yet so quick our own practices.

Reminds me of Siffin and Masjid-e-Kufa.

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gosh darn it. I was about to start on this thread. I guess I will let it go since there seems to be peace.

There have not even been any fight in first place that required any peace. If you think you can have logical discussion with calm temper on this thread, then please join. This discussion is not even over.

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1 hour ago, shiaman14 said:

gosh darn it. I was about to start on this thread. I guess I will let it go since there seems to be peace.

Although I do wonder why the Anti-Tatbeer+Pro-Unity crowd is always missing from the Shia/Sunni thread to defend our faith. yet so quick our own practices.

Reminds me of Siffin and Masjid-e-Kufa.

I don't see the connection with being anti-tatbeer and pro-unity, since I am one, but not the other. As for the Shia/Sunni forum, I've made plenty of threads and posts on there. It does become a bit repetitive after a while though, which is probably why few people post there anymore.

Anyway, if you have something to say, then please go ahead.

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17 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

I don't see the connection with being anti-tatbeer and pro-unity, since I am one, but not the other. As for the Shia/Sunni forum, I've made plenty of threads and posts on there. It does become a bit repetitive after a while though, which is probably why few people post there anymore.

Anyway, if you have something to say, then please go ahead.

While it does seem like being anti-tatbeer and pro-unity are mutually exclusive, we have a quite a few people here who are both (they know who they are :) ).

The Kish temple Hymm or Rigveda are the most ancient scriptures so perhaps we could say reading any religious scripture including the Quran is imitating Pagans.

Nowruz has its roots in Zoroastrianism yet celebrated by Iranians so it could be classified as imitating pagans.

As a matter of fact, it would be accurate to state that man has been worshiping a diety pretty much since the birth of man so one could say the act of worship itself is a pagan act.

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40 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

I don't see the connection with being anti-tatbeer and pro-unity, since I am one, but not the other. As for the Shia/Sunni forum, I've made plenty of threads and posts on there. It does become a bit repetitive after a while though, which is probably why few people post there anymore.

Like this topic isn't repetitive too? I know you found something interesting to show (the Bible verse), but nobody is even talking about that anymore. The thread turned into the same general malaise as always. 

I have an idea. We should combine all tatbir threads into one giant one, and have that be the central go-to place for all eternity here. Cleans up the rest of the forum, reduces repetition, and makes the job easier for mods. I'm no longer convinced ANY new thing about this subject can be made to warrant its own thread that will give anything unique from before. 

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9 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

While it does seem like being anti-tatbeer and pro-unity are mutually exclusive, we have a quite a few people here who are both (they know who they are :) ).

Ok, and if they are both, then so be it. I don't see what that has to do with anything.

 

9 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

The Kish temple Hymm or Rigveda are the most ancient scriptures so perhaps we could say reading any religious scripture including the Quran is imitating Pagans.

This is a really bad analogy. Allah has been sending us scriptures since the dawn of mankind. If anyone was imitating anyone else, it was the pagans imitating the believers. And anyway, from a Muslim perspective, we know that Allah sent us the Qur'an, and told us to read it. We have no divine command to do tatbeer, and it's a relatively recent practice in the history of Shi'ism. Not only that, but it so clearly has non-Islamic roots, that go back a long way.

I really wish those who seek to defend tatbeer would avoid making comparisons with firmly established aspects of our faith. The two are simply not comparable on any level.

 

9 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

Nowruz has its roots in Zoroastrianism yet celebrated by Iranians so it could be classified as imitating pagans.

And I would agree with that, as you can see here: 

 

I don't know why people assume that there would be some inconsistency here. Oh, wait, maybe it's because they think this is some kind of pro-Iranian conspiracy.

 

9 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

As a matter of fact, it would be accurate to state that man has been worshiping a diety pretty much since the birth of man so one could say the act of worship itself is a pagan act.

Wow. This is just sad. Are you seriously comparing some cutting yourself with blades to the very act for which mankind was created? I think you need to rethink your priorities here.

Since logic doesn't seem to be a strong point of the pro-tabeer crowd, then let me make this a little clearer. The argument is that tatbeer isn't a ritual native to Islam. In fact, Muslims went well over a thousand years without ever doing it. It was then copied from people of other religions, and adopted by certain Shias. Now, unless you want to argue that what I have just said is false, surely it is pretty clear that it is utterly absurd to compare this to reading the Qur'an or worshipping Allah?! To make the analogy work, you would need to argue that we imported reading scripture or worshipping Allah from other religions. Now do you see how dumb this argument is?

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1 minute ago, magma said:

Like this topic isn't repetitive too? I know you found something interesting to show (the Bible verse), but nobody is even talking about that anymore. The thread turned into the same general malaise as always. 

I have an idea. We should combine all tatbir threads into one giant one, and have that be the central go-to place for all eternity here. Cleans up the rest of the forum, reduces repetition, and makes the job easier for mods. I'm no longer convinced ANY new thing about this subject can be made to warrant its own thread that will give anything unique from before. 

If some people don't know how to stick to the topic, and insist on derailing the thread, then not much can be done. I don't think that is a reason to ban any new tatbeer threads though. It's not like this is taking the place of any other super-interesting thread right now anyway.

And as it happens, I think a lot of people are probably quite interested in knowing that this type of ritual has pagan origins going back thousands of years.

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1 minute ago, Haydar Husayn said:

If some people don't know how to stick to the topic, and insist on derailing the thread, then not much can be done. I don't think that is a reason to ban any new tatbeer threads though. It's not like this is taking the place of any other super-interesting thread right now anyway.

And as it happens, I think a lot of people are probably quite interested in knowing that this type of ritual has pagan origins going back thousands of years.

People would still get their chance to speak, just in one central location. Since all the prior discussions would already be laid out in one easy place, this might encourage more reading rather than typing. Just a thought.

But people will still not find it, make new threads anyway, so what's the point? People are so boring and unimaginative. 

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42 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Ok, and if they are both, then so be it. I don't see what that has to do with anything.

 

This is a really bad analogy. Allah has been sending us scriptures since the dawn of mankind. If anyone was imitating anyone else, it was the pagans imitating the believers. And anyway, from a Muslim perspective, we know that Allah sent us the Qur'an, and told us to read it. We have no divine command to do tatbeer, and it's a relatively recent practice in the history of Shi'ism. Not only that, but it so clearly has non-Islamic roots, that go back a long way.

I really wish those who seek to defend tatbeer would avoid making comparisons with firmly established aspects of our faith. The two are simply not comparable on any level.

 

And I would agree with that, as you can see here: 

 

I don't know why people assume that there would be some inconsistency here. Oh, wait, maybe it's because they think this is some kind of pro-Iranian conspiracy.

 

Wow. This is just sad. Are you seriously comparing some cutting yourself with blades to the very act for which mankind was created? I think you need to rethink your priorities here.

Since logic doesn't seem to be a strong point of the pro-tabeer crowd, then let me make this a little clearer. The argument is that tatbeer isn't a ritual native to Islam. In fact, Muslims went well over a thousand years without ever doing it. It was then copied from people of other religions, and adopted by certain Shias. Now, unless you want to argue that what I have just said is false, surely it is pretty clear that it is utterly absurd to compare this to reading the Qur'an or worshipping Allah?! To make the analogy work, you would need to argue that we imported reading scripture or worshipping Allah from other religions. Now do you see how dumb this argument is?

Brother - my point was exactly what you said. Comparing something someone did against another group is a useless exercise.

If I wanted to be even more absurd, I would say pagans sacrificed animals and we do too, or pagans breathe air and we do to.

 

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3 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Brother - my point was exactly what you said. Comparing something someone did against another group is a useless exercise.

If I wanted to be even more absurd, I would say pagans sacrificed animals and we do too, or pagans breathe air and we do to.

 

Brother, I am living in a society where i am observing the worst consequences of this type of discussions.

I wish if anyone from these comparision maker could come over & see whats going on here!

Look at the topic, it explains their intentions & explaining the reason of this thread. So instead of correcting the mistake, their insistance on ignorance is surprising.

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32 minutes ago, Sajjad Zaidi said:

I wish if anyone from these comparision maker could come over & see whats going on here!

Where? In America? 

 

34 minutes ago, Sajjad Zaidi said:

Look at the topic, it explains their intentions & explaining the reason of this thread.

"The anti-tatbir crowd might enjoy this"

Well, your point is valid brother. It is regretful indeed. If they want to question tatbir, they should have posted the question in decent manner.

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7 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Brother - my point was exactly what you said. Comparing something someone did against another group is a useless exercise.

If I wanted to be even more absurd, I would say pagans sacrificed animals and we do too, or pagans breathe air and we do to.

 

You're still missing the point. There is a big difference between us doing things commanded by God, that happen to be similar to things done by pagans (and from an Isamic point of view, those acts may have origins in divine revelation, just as the pagan Arabs did things that were from the sunnah of Ibrahim and Ismail (a)), and doing something that wasn't commanded by God, and was first done by pagans.

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2 hours ago, Spiritual said:

If they want to question tatbir, they should have posted the question in decent manner.

Brother, Just have a look at their reasoning skills:

 

7 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Since logic doesn't seem to be a strong point of the pro-tabeer crowd,

Logic for controlling the emotions??? I am wondering the reasons & logic was also given to the father of Prophet Yusuf (a.s), look if you cry so hard you may lose your sight, please hold patience & don't cry too much, you may harm yourself. 

They want to set the rules of love & want to set the rules for expressing emotions, I don't know whether this itself is a sane idea or insane.

 

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5 minutes ago, Sajjad Zaidi said:

They want to set the rules of love & want to set the rules for expressing emotions,

One can set the rules for himself, not for all ( a common person), religious authorities may have the right to do so.

So again a valid point.

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14 minutes ago, Sajjad Zaidi said:

Brother, Just have a look at their reasoning skills:

 

Logic for controlling the emotions??? I am wondering the reasons & logic was also given to the father of Prophet Yusuf (a.s), look if you cry so hard you may lose your sight, please hold patience & don't cry too much, you may harm yourself. 

They want to set the rules of love & want to set the rules for expressing emotions, I don't know whether this itself is a sane idea or insane.

 

I guess Islam must be an insane religion then, because it does set rules for expressing emotions. There are rules for mourning, you know.

Anyway, I was referring to logic in discussion, not mourning, which I think was obvious. Unless you are trying to tell me that it's insane to ever expect logic from a tatbeer supporter.

As far as Nabi Yaqoob (a) goes, he didn't make himself blind by crying. In fact, the Qur'an seems to say the opposite.

And he turned away from them, and said: O my sorrow for Yusuf! and his eyes became white on account of the grief, and he was a repressor (of grief). [Qur'an 12:84, Shakir]

So it was apparently through suppressing his grief that he became blind, not in expressing it. It's a known medical phenomenon that anxiety and stress can cause blindness.

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1 minute ago, Spiritual said:

One can set the rules for himself, not for all ( a common person), religious authorities may have the right to do so.

So again a valid point.

Brother, I am also viewing the inability of these anti-tatbir people to realize for whom these brother do tatbir. For those who keeps the right more than us, on our souls & wealth i.e., Aimma e Tahireen (a.s).

I have asked a person who was doing matam (Qama), why you are doing this? He replied, I am hearing the echo of "Hal min nasirin yansurna", today I am shedding my blood just to let my Imam know, that if I were with you, I would have offered my sacrifice. I would have shed every drop of my blood for you Ya Aba Abdillah (a.s).The answer brought tears in my eyes and I admired the emotions of that person.

Please realize, how can anyone make such people understand, that shedding blood like this is against the laws of Islam & against the commands of Allah? 

These anti-tatbir people ask that such people were not mujnoon when they were preparing for tatbir by sharpening their swords & knives. I have asked the same question from a different azadar, he replied me, did you not listen, how anxiously the ashaab of Imam Hussain (a.s) were waiting to scarify their lives. They were sharpening their swords, making plans how will they fight with the enemy etc. 

So I come to a conclusion that these brothers are deeply effected by the tragedy of Karbala. There is no doubt on their sincerity & love for Imam Hussain (a.s), therefore they don't deserve to be mocked with comments posted on the topic.

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7 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

And he turned away from them, and said: O my sorrow for Yusuf! and his eyes became white on account of the grief, and he was a repressor (of grief). [Qur'an 12:84, Shakir]

So from this verse we can extrapolate that expressing emotions is good for health.

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13 minutes ago, Sajjad Zaidi said:

Please realize, how can anyone make such people understand, that shedding blood like this is against the laws of Islam & against the commands of Allah? 

If it really is against! 

There is no verse in Quran which prohibits the letting out of blood in the love of Allah. Instead, Allah commands us to sacrify our souls in fighting with injustice and oppression. Allah has admired those who died in His way:

Surah At-Taubah, Verse 111:

إِنَّ اللَّهَ اشْتَرَىٰ مِنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ أَنفُسَهُمْ وَأَمْوَالَهُم بِأَنَّ لَهُمُ الْجَنَّةَ يُقَاتِلُونَ فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ فَيَقْتُلُونَ وَيُقْتَلُونَ

 Surely Allah has bought of the believers their persons and their property for this, that they shall have the garden; they fight in Allah's way, so they slay and are slain; 

There is no command of Prophet (pbuh) which prohibit the shedding of blood       (letting out blood) in the "nusrah" of huqq.

 

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3 minutes ago, Spiritual said:

There is no verse in Quran which prohibits the letting out of blood in the love of Allah. Instead, Allah commands us to sacrify our souls in fighting with injustice and oppression.

Why then these anti-tatbir people try to impose their opinion on others? If they don't have any proof that such acts are forbidden in Islam. I think if these people were with Imam Hussain (a.s) on the night of Ashura, they would have preferred to leave the Imam, when Imam Hussain asked his ashaab that if anyone want to leave me than leave, when he turned the lamp off.

Their logic & reason would have forced them to save their lives instead of sacrificing such valuable asset on Imam.

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1 minute ago, Haimi said:

Sorry but can anyone tell me what's the thread about?

In a short way please, appreciate it.

It seems to me that this thread is for ridiculing our azadar brothers who do tatbir. People are very aggressive in mocking the actions of their own brothers in faith & are trying to enjoy on their ignorance, as the subject of this thread itself says "Anti-tatbir crowd might enjoy this". 

What a great research work these people are brought inn! 

  

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4 minutes ago, Sajjad Zaidi said:

It seems to me that this thread is for ridiculing our azadar brothers who do tatbir. People are very aggressive in mocking the actions of their own brothers in faith & are trying to enjoy on their ignorance, as the subject of this thread itself says "Anti-tatbir crowd might enjoy this". 

What a great research work these people are brought inn! 

  

What's about our azadari?

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16 minutes ago, Haimi said:

 

Sorry but can anyone tell me what's the thread about?

In a short way please, appreciate it.

 

Plp who started the thread are saying it is haram to hit yourself and it's a pagan tradition and it's a new thing in Shia Islam. Some plp are saying no there is nothing wrong with hitting yourself or cutting yourself for Imam Hussein (as) 

 

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1 minute ago, Ya_isa (as) said:

Plp who started the thread are saying it is haram to hit yourself and it's a pagan tradition and it's a new thing in Shia Islam. Some plp are saying no there is nothing wrong with hitting yourself or cutting yourself for Imam Hussein (as) 

 

Well, the answer is easy.

A lot of maraje says: it's haram to cut yourself.

Also a few of them saying it's haram to even hit yourself.

Why again we're discussing Fiq'hi things that's related to a Marja?:(

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Just now, Ya_isa (as) said:

To be honest we shouldn't be..... This whole topic was kind of unnecessary 

It's funny.

We have Wali faqih imam ayatullah Khamenei h.a, yet seems few of our beloved brothers didn't listen or read to its speechs about azadari.

Brothers, wet need to recruit people to our lovely Deen, can I do that while I did cut my back by a sword (Qamma) or something? What kind of thoughts a Western lady would get by this image?

That's a part of the speech.

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7 minutes ago, Haimi said:

We have Wali faqih imam ayatullah Khamenei h.a, yet seems few of our beloved brothers didn't listen or read to its speechs about azadari.

With all due respect for him, I am the follower of Ayatullah Sistani. It is not possible for me to change my marja e taqleed.
There is difference of opinion among our great scholars in this matter.   

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Just now, Sajjad Zaidi said:

With all due respect for him, I am the follower of Ayatullah Sistani. It is not possible for me to change my marja e taqleed.
There is difference of opinion among our great scholars in this matter.   

He's HAKIM shari'i, means if he's says today is the Eid of Fitr for example, you must follow him, even if your Marja'a says the Eid is tomorrow.

Email to your Marja'a about fatwa coming by a HAKIM SHARI'I, a wali faqih.

This Eid is an Eid for Wilayat, let us improve our knowledge about Wilayat faqih.

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1 minute ago, Haimi said:

He's HAKIM shari'i, means if he's says today is the Eid of Fitr for example, you must follow him, even if your Marja'a says the Eid is tomorrow.

Email to your Marja'a about fatwa coming by a HAKIM SHARI'I, a wali faqih.

This Eid is an Eid for Wilayat, let us improve our knowledge about Wilayat faqih.

Means the commands of Ayatullah Khamenei supersede the rulings of Ayatullah Sistani?  Is Ayatullah Sistani not a Wali-e-Faqih?

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14 minutes ago, Haimi said:
17 minutes ago, Sajjad Zaidi said:

 

He's HAKIM shari'i, means if he's says today is the Eid of Fitr for example, you must follow him, even if your Marja'a says the Eid is tomorrow.

Email to your Marja'a about fatwa coming by a HAKIM SHARI'I, a wali faqih.

This Eid is an Eid for Wilayat, let us improve our knowledge about Wilayat faqih.

Very interesting I never knew that, is it only for special occasions like eid as you pointed out or for all matters. ? 

 

If if his ruling surpasses all the other mar'ja why the need for other marj'as? 

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