Gender ROLES

[notme]

1 hour ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

To encourage such nonsense is terrible and backwards thinking.

Encouraging this would be terrible and backwards, but it's not what most people mean when they talk about gender roles. What you describe is a childish caricature. I certainly hope not many people are like that.

 

[YAli]

2 hours ago, magma said:

Just like gravity does. 

If I could like this comment 10,000 times I would. 

[YAli]

3 hours ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

Man, the sexism in this thread.

I don't believe in gender roles. They limit people. 

Why don't you walk out side, look up at the beautiful star lit sky, and shout this to your Lord, Allah. 

... After all why put this on us when we (humans) never came up with this?!! 

Talk to your Lord, read his Book, and ponder and think deeply about society around you. 

Many naive Muslims seem to have joined the west in forgetting a big blob lives inside a woman for 9 months. Then this big blog requires her milk, and complete attention, and love, and then when growing up needs the mother a lot (now proved by science what effect mothers time has on her children). (Although many many millions of western women are chucking away the false satanic feminism sold to them over the past generation, because they have had enough. Even they want peace.) 

And no. I am not. Talking. About a 1960s. Style Bollywood. Marriage. 

I am talking about something beautiful. Like Adam and Hawa. Like Muhammad and Khadija. Like Ali and Fatima. Peace be upon get them all and Mohammed's family. 

(P.s. Even still I am saying, a woman can work. Ofcourse she can!! But get your priorities right). 

Edited December 5, 2016 by YAli

[Reza]

19 minutes ago, YAli said:

If I could like this comment 10,000 times I would. 

If I could program it like this, I would gladly accept minimum 50,000 likes. 

[Endtimes]

On ‎9‎/‎17‎/‎2016 at 3:56 PM, Shia.a said:

Its 2016. People need to stop using old islam to treat women like trash. who else agrees?

What do you mean by that? Who are "old Islam"?

[Sumerian]

May Allah bless gender roles. May Allah curse feminism. 

Gender roles is a good thing! Islam promotes gender roles, anything Islam promotes is by defintion, good.

Edited December 6, 2016 by E.L King

[notme]

18 minutes ago, E.L King said:

May Allah bless gender roles. May Allah curse feminism.

Before you go blessing gender roles and cursing feminism, you need to define both. These are words that mean different things to different people. 

[Sumerian]

6 minutes ago, notme said:

Before you go blessing gender roles and cursing feminism, you need to define both. These are words that mean different things to different people. 

Well I go by the text book defintions, or the mainstream defintions, my sister:

Feminism: the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes

The bold parts is what I disagree with.

The word "economics", I put in Italics. Why? Because in Islam, for example, a man has to feed his wife and family. I.E Nafaqa.

If you personally mean, by feminism, the advocacy of females rights which are approved by Islam, then yeah, I am the biggest feminist there is. If you mean the more known defintion, and what a feminist generally advocates, then I am the biggest anti-feminist im human history.

Edited December 6, 2016 by E.L King

[Al Hadi]

On ‎9‎/‎17‎/‎2016 at 11:48 PM, starlight said:

I DO. 

My ex was a 'religious' person.

Getting permission to leave the house to see my widowed mother was a feat, every single time.It needed weeks of begging before I would get permission to go see her over a weekend. Even then , he made it a point to make it as unpleasant and difficult for me as possible.By the time I would reach my Mum's place my eyes would be swollen and red due to hours of crying.  I was that 'disobedient woman who left the house without his husband's permission and the angels would be sending lanah on me with every step I took'. 

He was the stingiest person I have ever come across in my life and he chose islam to justify it. Our living space was totally unfurnished except for a old bed passed on to us by his relatives, he refused to buy furniture or any other household item, here I mean the necessary ones. We did not have any curtains on the windows, instead he told me to hang old bed sheets (again passed down from relatives), my 'crockery' was few mismatched plates which I refused to use and bought some with my own money since the corners were badly chipped and broken and it would be unhygienic to eat from them.I wasn't allowed room heating or hot water not even when we had sub zero temperatures in winters and our daughter had a bad respiratory infection .Every time I asked him to get anything that I needed, even tupperware, his would fire back at me saying: Did Hazrat Ali as and Bibi Fatima as had X in their house? If a household without tupperware/curtains/bed/room heater/water heater was good enough for them why isn't it good enough for you?

Do even get me started on the beating verse........ 

 

 

I'm sorry to hear that.

[Haydar Husayn]

On 06/12/2016 at 2:14 PM, E.L King said:

Well I go by the text book defintions, or the mainstream defintions, my sister:

Feminism: the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes

The bold parts is what I disagree with.

The word "economics", I put in Italics. Why? Because in Islam, for example, a man has to feed his wife and family. I.E Nafaqa.

If you personally mean, by feminism, the advocacy of females rights which are approved by Islam, then yeah, I am the biggest feminist there is. If you mean the more known defintion, and what a feminist generally advocates, then I am the biggest anti-feminist im human history.

I'm not sure modern feminism is even about equality anymore. It seems more like a man-hating cult.

[Al Hadi]

On ‎12‎/‎6‎/‎2016 at 8:47 AM, E.L King said:

May Allah bless gender roles. May Allah curse feminism. 

Gender roles is a good thing! Islam promotes gender roles, anything Islam promotes is by defintion, good.

Man I LOVE EL KING I swear probably my favorite shiachatter.

again I hate how people pick and choose Islam shamelessly even by saying "oh if I don't follow Islam 100% God is all merciful he wont send me to hell for following feminism" sadly I heard something like this on this topic as well.

First off we cant say he wont send us here or will send us there the scholars warn us  even if we are super religious not to say that let alone a feminist who picks and chooses what to follow. When are Imam(as) comes and brings a patriarchal society what will we do then fight him. Its amazing I remember reading a hadith sayin 3 people will be the most who fight the imam the 1.Jews 2.I forgot the second one then there was 3.women. Now I see why that makes sense.

God isn't stupid we didn't find some philosophy to outsmart him when he made the rules he intended for us to follow it 100% If we invent any kind of loopholes we should be careful and wary of the punishment of GOd many people who thought they found such loopholes ended up being the worst of people like Umar ibn said who actually I think thought at one point that if GOd was all merciful he could get forgiven for his crime. We should be careful with these kinds of ideas that are whispers f shayton to get us to sin.

 

[Islandsandmirrors]

Gender Roles INCREASE the risk of depression in woman because it encourages helplessness, lack of control in one's own life, and dependence. 

Islam does not promote stifling gender roles, but it promotes RESPONSIBILITY for both sexes. Woman in Islam ARE NOT required to cook and clean and be slaves to MEN.

WE ARE THE SLAVES OF Allah, not MEN. 

Edited December 7, 2016 by Islandsandmirrors

[notme]

@Islandsandmirrors I think when you say "gender roles" what you really mean is "traditional gender roles which reduce women to household slaves", and you're right, Islam doesn't require that. 

Islam does assign the responsibility as head of the household to men, and with that in mind, women are required to consult with the husband on family matters. It might just be my cynicism, but it seems to me that if men weren't assigned a role, they'd be content to be children and leave all the responsibility on the women. Maybe some women want that, but they're either crazy or ignorant. Being mother and father is more than any one person should have to bear. 

[Haydar Husayn]

8 hours ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

Gender Roles INCREASE the risk of depression in woman because it encourages helplessness, lack of control in one's own life, and dependence. 

Islam does not promote stifling gender roles, but it promotes RESPONSIBILITY for both sexes. Woman in Islam ARE NOT required to cook and clean and be slaves to MEN.

WE ARE THE SLAVES OF Allah, not MEN. 

Apart from what sister notme already said, Islam also requires men and women to act like men and women. Imitating the opposite sex (for example by dressing in their clothes) is forbidden.

[Abu Hadi]

12 hours ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

Gender Roles INCREASE the risk of depression in woman because it encourages helplessness, lack of control in one's own life, and dependence. 

Islam does not promote stifling gender roles, but it promotes RESPONSIBILITY for both sexes. Woman in Islam ARE NOT required to cook and clean and be slaves to MEN.

WE ARE THE SLAVES OF Allah, not MEN. 

If you study the Quran, and the hadith of Imams of Ahl Al Bayt(a.s) regarding roles for men and women, it is much more profound and nuanced than most people understand it to be. Most of what is actually practiced in our muslim communities is from a particular culture(Arab,Indo/Pak,Iraninan,etc) not Islam. For example, the point brought up about Asian(I am assuming this means Indo/Pak from the 'chapatti reference) men showing love by yelling at their wife for chapatti when they come home. The wife accepts that because she interprets that through the lens of her culture and how she was brought up in that culture. If he was married to an American women, revert to Islam, she would probably file divorce papers if he did that(on a regular basis), not because she is a feminist, necessarily, but because that is not part of her culture, and she probably doesn't know how to make chapatti anyway.

Indo/Pak women (thought bubble)

- Husband comes home. 

- He's yelling for chapatti

-That means he's happy

- I'll make him chapatti

 

American women(thought bubble)

-Husband comes home

-He's yelling for chapatti

-Why is he yelling ? 

-He must be upset

-Why is he upset all the time

-I don't know how to make chapatti

 

 

Edited December 8, 2016 by Abu Hadi

[Shia.a]

On ‎12‎/‎5‎/‎2016 at 8:32 AM, YAli said:

@Haydar Husayn

Salaam Sis... can i hazard a guess please... are you 

1) from the asian sub continent 

2)Did you grow up in a household like @starlight where your mother was abused (by a culturally inclined man), and she pushed you to study JUST so you can gain independence and free yourself from every man on earth.

3) Neither your mother nor your father ever taught you about the details and WHYs of Islam, such as why Allah ordained inheritance laws to be the way they are, why a woman should wear hijab, why Allah has told a man to look after his household (And by look after i mean love them in every way. Not just provide and be miserable all the time)

4) Your father was not loving to your mother, i mean like real love, and saying really nice things and compliments. NOT the Asian love/nice where he comes home shouts in the native language for some chapatti. 

I apologise in advance if these are really personal questions/points, but i am doing some research, and i am finding a lot of the same. Including from parts of my own family. As i refer to this; the Muslims community has sleepwalked into a danger zone over the past 50/80 years. 

My parents are divorced

[YAli]

2 hours ago, Shia.a said:

My parents are divorced

Well I am sorry to hear that. 

But are they divorced because of my original points? (Again don't answer if it's too personal). 

[Pearl178]

On December 8, 2016 at 3:23 AM, notme said:

@Islandsandmirrors I think when you say "gender roles" what you really mean is "traditional gender roles which reduce women to household slaves", and you're right, Islam doesn't require that. 

 

People have the dangerous tendency to mix culture with religion, and go as far as to put culture before religion. Prime example being that the wife has to live with the husbands family which is the opposite of what Islam promotes. 

[ema]

On 2016/9/18 at 10:38 AM, guest101616 said:

The problem is women themselves Many times.

Excuse me? What do you mean by that? Please kindly tell us examples under what situations that someone stronger could justify abuses, torture, violence against weaker ones.

Edited January 2, 2017 by ema
typo

[wmehar2]

On 12/6/2016 at 9:14 AM, E.L King said:

 

Feminism: the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes

 

Tell  me what part of Islamic history that did involve women in political and social equality that you disagree with?

Is not a woman a part of infallibles, or involved in narrations of Hadith from which stems the basis/fundamentals of law and politics? 

Maybe you need to go further and elaborate what political and social equality of the sexes mean.

In Islam like you said, women were given a right of vote for leader so to speak.  That's political attribute.  Women were given inheritance, right to property, protection under contracts, and other obligations not previously given to them in society previously,  is not that social equality?  Forgive me if I'm wrong, but stopping the burials of female infant deaths is under the social equality umbrella.

Women not being forced into marriage is another form social equality, and having a choice to divorce.

Economic - You and I both know Lady Khadijah Peace upon her, inherited and worked an entire business bringing in income that far exceed our Prophet's SAW, and could put food on a table for the entire city of Mecca.  Women also participated in battles and fought side by side by men.

Is the modern definition that far from the definition your attributing to Islam's?

If the reason for the feminism  movement or motivation rather, is to minimize abuse to women that's unjustly caused to them as a result of inherit sickness in society that men for the most part control, are they not allowed to stand up and say something and call it feminism?

Look man, I've seen ladies get their undies in a bunch over a guy holding a door open for them, that's not the "feminism"  anyone here is referring to.  I'm pretty sure everyone here more or less is on the same page.

I think more concrete examples are needed so we can discuss them further and really highlight everyone's perspective on what is and what isn't and then what it should be and what it shouldn't be.

 

[Mansur Bakhtiari]

Lets look at roles women historically played in the Islamic world.

Shahidah Summayah (ra) was the first martyr of Islam. She died defending her beliefs.

Hamideh Khatun (ra) was an African slave freed by Imam Jafar Sadegh (as), who then married her and trained her as an Islamic scholar for the women. So I actually should say Shaykhah Hamideh Khatun (ra).

Jahan Begum was a Muslim, and ruler of the princely state of Bohal in India froma around 1844-65.

Lubna of Cordoba was a poet and intellectual in 10th century Cordoba.

Shaykha Zaynab bint Umar al Kindi was a Muhaddith, author and jurist of Hanafi fiqh.

Umm al Muminoon Hafsa bint Umar (ra) was a Hafiz of the Quran and narrarator of over 60 hadith.

Umm Darda as Sughra was a hafiz, debater, plus teacher of Fiqh and Quran in Damascus and Jerusalem.

Layla as Shifa (ra) was a medic, plus one of the very few Meccan women who could write during the time of the Prophet (saw)

Yes, Islam is a monster towards women, and its time for us to give them high heels and bikinis to liberate them.

[Sumerian]

4 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

Tell  me what part of Islamic history that did involve women in political and social equality that you disagree with?

Is not a woman a part of infallibles, or involved in narrations of Hadith from which stems the basis/fundamentals of law and politics? 

Maybe you need to go further and elaborate what political and social equality of the sexes mean.

In Islam like you said, women were given a right of vote for leader so to speak.  That's political attribute.  Women were given inheritance, right to property, protection under contracts, and other obligations not previously given to them in society previously,  is not that social equality?  Forgive me if I'm wrong, but stopping the burials of female infant deaths is under the social equality umbrella.

Women not being forced into marriage is another form social equality, and having a choice to divorce.

Economic - You and I both know Lady Khadijah Peace upon her, inherited and worked an entire business bringing in income that far exceed our Prophet's SAW, and could put food on a table for the entire city of Mecca.  Women also participated in battles and fought side by side by men.

Is the modern definition that far from the definition your attributing to Islam's?

If the reason for the feminism  movement or motivation rather, is to minimize abuse to women that's unjustly caused to them as a result of inherit sickness in society that men for the most part control, are they not allowed to stand up and say something and call it feminism?

Look man, I've seen ladies get their undies in a bunch over a guy holding a door open for them, that's not the "feminism"  anyone here is referring to.  I'm pretty sure everyone here more or less is on the same page.

I think more concrete examples are needed so we can discuss them further and really highlight everyone's perspective on what is and what isn't and then what it should be and what it shouldn't be.

 

I think you're twisting words. Equality means the state of being equal, especially in status, rights, or opportunities. 

A woman can't be a Shari'a Judge, that is not equality.

A women sometimes inherits half that of a man, that is not equality.

A woman's testimony in court is sometimes equal half that to a man, and sometimes her testimony is not considered at all.

A woman can't leave the house without the permission of her husband, that is not equality. 

There are things only men can do, and things only women can do. That is not EQUALITY, as per the literal defintion of the word.

Simple as that. I am a man of literal defintions.

[wmehar2]

18 hours ago, E.L King said:

I think you're twisting words. Equality means the state of being equal, especially in status, rights, or opportunities. 

A woman can't be a Shari'a Judge, that is not equality.

A women sometimes inherits half that of a man, that is not equality.

A woman's testimony in court is sometimes equal half that to a man, and sometimes her testimony is not considered at all.

A woman can't leave the house without the permission of her husband, that is not equality. 

There are things only men can do, and things only women can do. That is not EQUALITY, as per the literal defintion of the word.

Simple as that. I am a man of literal defintions.

Ah, you've answered my question and point.

Ad you adequately put, you're terms are "literal" black and white.

While most others are discussing the not so easily defined parameters shaping what a woman or man can or can't do in terms of gender roles . 

Equality is not universally defined and has varying interpretations.

Here, we are using equality in the sense that yes there are certain things men can do and women can't do and vice versa but however the responsibility attributed to those roles make up for each other providing equality in a different sense.

 

For example wife cooks cleans the house and contribute that way while taking care of the kids.  then man puts money and food on the table.   or in the event that the man can't have a job for whatever reason and the woman has a job maybe he can switch roles cook clean take care of the kids and the Wife puts money in food on the table and that can be perfectly acceptable because it's still "equal" contribution.  roles are still filled and made practical . 

 

We're not twisting words, words just have a different meaning to those wearing a different lense bro.

[Sumerian]

@wmehar2 I believe my previous post addressed that bro.

On Wednesday, December 07, 2016 at 1:14 AM, E.L King said:

Well I go by the text book defintions, or the mainstream defintions, my sister:

Feminism: the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes

The bold parts is what I disagree with.

The word "economics", I put in Italics. Why? Because in Islam, for example, a man has to feed his wife and family. I.E Nafaqa.

If you personally mean, by feminism, the advocacy of females rights which are approved by Islam, then yeah, I am the biggest feminist there is. If you mean the more known defintion, and what a feminist generally advocates, then I am the biggest anti-feminist im human history.