Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

3 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

 

Its 2016. People need to stop using old islam to treattre trash. who else agrees?

 

 

3 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Islam doesn't, and never did, say that women must cook and clean (or be their husband's maid). But yes, it does say that women need the husband's permission (at least tacitly) to leave the house. I don't see why that would be any different if Islam was revealed now. If anything, there are even more dangers for women now than there were then. Having said that, any good law can be ruined by abuse, which sounds like what starlight's husband was doing. Generally, I think it's best to agree on these types of things before getting married (although it's understandable that most women don't imagine that it would be an issue).

As for the four wives thing, maybe people would be more understanding of it if they remembered that Islam is meant for all times and all places, and not just the 21st century western (or westernised) world. Most men have no desire to have four wives, and even if they did, most couldn't afford more than one. Some people act like every other Muslim man is practicing polygamy.

Oh, I get it now. I'm sorry. I didn't know women are too weak to take care of themselves. I didnt know women couldnt leave the house without her husbands permission, since you know, husbands know everything. For a second there I almost thought women were, strong independent and dont need to depend on a man. My bad. I almost thought women are equal. I understand now. I cannot wait to get an education and become a doctor just to find out I can only leave the house by the rules of another man. May god curse me for all the times I went to work and made MY OWN money. but hey-at least I can repent. Men are wise. Sorry for being so selfish.

sincerly,

us spoiled women.

 

Edited by Shia.a
wasnt finished

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

People who are evil will be evil in spite of religion. That doesn't make the religion evil.

A woman whose husband won't let her visit family or go out for her needs definitely has grounds to complain. So would a man whose wife just wants to spend up all his provision without appreciation. 

The Quran says your spouse is your garment - nothing is closer to you. They protect and comfort you and conceal your flaws from the public. If they aren't doing that they will be answerable on the day of judgement.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Shia.a said:

 

Oh, I get it now. I'm sorry. I didn't know women are too weak to take care of themselves. I didnt know women couldnt leave the house without her husbands permission, since you know, husbands know everything. For a second there I almost thought women were, strong independent and dont need to depend on a man. My bad. I almost thought women are equal. I understand now. I cannot wait to get an education and become a doctor just to find out I can only leave the house by the rules of another man.

I don't know which world you live in, but in the world I live in, men are on average stronger than women, and some unfortunately take advantage of that to abuse women in various ways. There is such a thing as sexual assault and rape. And these are crimes that are very difficult to prosecute, You can go around telling yourself how strong and independent you are as much as you want, but at the end of the day, that isn't going to be much consolation if something bad happens. And statistically, bad things happen to a lot of women. The secular approach to all of this seems to be to keep telling women that they are strong and independent, and can do whatever a man can do. It tells them that they can put themselves in compromising positions without fear, because 'no means no'. And then if something bad happens, they find it outrageous that nothing can be done about it because it ultimately boils down to one person's word against the other. Islam's approach is one of prevention. Rather than having a delusional view of the world, it has a realistic one. Aside from any physical dangers, there are also the spiritual ones of men and women freely mixing without need. But I don't get the feeling you would see that as an issue anyway.

Aside from that, Islam is a patriarchal religion, as the Qur'an makes clear. I know 'patriarchy' is a dirty word nowadays, in the feminist-inspired world, but I don't see much evidence that we are any better off without it. Every animal species has a societal structure that allocates different roles to males and females, so I don't see why humans should be any different. When you look at the things that those who hate the patriarchal system promote, you won't find much that fits in with anyone's understanding of Islam.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

I don't know which world you live in, but in the world I live in, men are on average stronger than women, and some unfortunately take advantage of that to abuse women in various ways. There is such a thing as sexual assault and rape. And these are crimes that are very difficult to prosecute, You can go around telling yourself how strong and independent you are as much as you want, but at the end of the day, that isn't going to be much consolation if something bad happens. And statistically, bad things happen to a lot of women. The secular approach to all of this seems to be to keep telling women that they are strong and independent, and can do whatever a man can do. It tells them that they can put themselves in compromising positions without fear, because 'no means no'. And then if something bad happens, they find it outrageous that nothing can be done about it because it ultimately boils down to one person's word against the other. Islam's approach is one of prevention. Rather than having a delusional view of the world, it has a realistic one. Aside from any physical dangers, there are also the spiritual ones of men and women freely mixing without need. But I don't get the feeling you would see that as an issue anyway.

Aside from that, Islam is a patriarchal religion, as the Qur'an makes clear. I know 'patriarchy' is a dirty word nowadays, in the feminist-inspired world, but I don't see much evidence that we are any better off without it. Every animal species has a societal structure that allocates different roles to males and females, so I don't see why humans should be any different. When you look at the things that those who hate the patriarchal system promote, you won't find much that fits in with anyone's understanding of Islam.

Men get raped and abused too. Lets be realistic. Whats wrong with a confident woman? You make it seen like women are weak, when in fact we have women in the army and women who control business. Some are even smarter. Patriarchy is opression. Women are allowed to have the same jobs as men.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And by gender roles, I meant like if a girl acts as a boy and a boy acts as a girl. If a girl doesnt want to wear skirts or makeup, men have no right to say "Islam says you need to look good for your husband." Let her relax and wear sweatpants and watch netflix sometimes. And if a boy wants to be emotional, so what? Women have no place in telling a guy he is weak, just like guys dont tell women they belong in the kitchen.

Edited by Shia.a

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Shia.a said:

Men get raped and abused too. Lets be realistic. Whats wrong with a confident woman? You make it seen like women are weak, when in fact we have women in the army and women who control business. Some are even smarter. Patriarchy is opression. Women are allowed to have the same jobs as men.

All I am seeing here are standard slogans being trotted out, with zero critical examination. Just because 'we' do something, it doesn't make it a good idea. Yes, 'we' have women in the army, but do you think that would be the case if warfare was still mostly hand-to-hand combat? Do you think it would be a good idea to have women perform that role?

It's true that men get raped and abused too, but women are by far the most frequent victims. Are you going to deny that men are on average stronger than women, and are likely to suffer abuse?

Nobody said there is anything wrong with a confident woman, but confidence isn't a weapon that saves you from abuse. Neither did anyone say that women can't be smarter than their husbands. But that's besides the point. You can be smarter than your boss, but you still have to follow the boss' instructions. Men aren't in charge because they are smarter, but because that is the responsibility given to them by Allah, who in His wisdom decided that this would be the best structure for humans to live under.

Let me point out that since the West has adopted many of the precepts of feminism, there has been a complete breakdown in the family structure, a loss of sexual morality, as well as respect for authority. This has had widespread repercussions for society. This isn't coincidental, because feminists have always seen the family as the building block of the patriarchy. They hate it, and have always wanted to destroy it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Shia.a said:

And by gender roles, I meant like if a girl acts as a boy and a boy acts as a girl. If a girl doesnt want to wear skirts or makeup, men have no right to say "Islam says you need to look good for your husband." Let her relax and wear sweatpants and watch netflix sometimes. And if a boy wants to be emotional, so what? Women have no place in telling a guy he is weak, just like guys dont tell women they belong in the kitchen.

No offense, but I don't think you are speaking about any of this from the perspective of someone who has any first-hand experience. It wasn't so long ago that you were making threads about 'dabbing', so maybe wait a while before lecturing the rest of us about what Islam says about marriage, and how that actually works out in practice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

All I am seeing here are standard slogans being trotted out, with zero critical examination. Just because 'we' do something, it doesn't make it a good idea. Yes, 'we' have women in the army, but do you think that would be the case if warfare was still mostly hand-to-hand combat? Do you think it would be a good idea to have women perform that role?

It's true that men get raped and abused too, but women are by far the most frequent victims. Are you going to deny that men are on average stronger than women, and are likely to suffer abuse?

Nobody said there is anything wrong with a confident woman, but confidence isn't a weapon that saves you from abuse. Neither did anyone say that women can't be smarter than their husbands. But that's besides the point. You can be smarter than your boss, but you still have to follow the boss' instructions. Men aren't in charge because they are smarter, but because that is the responsibility given to them by Allah, who in His wisdom decided that this would be the best structure for humans to live under.

Let me point out that since the West has adopted many of the precepts of feminism, there has been a complete breakdown in the family structure, a loss of sexual morality, as well as respect for authority. This has had widespread repercussions for society. This isn't coincidental, because feminists have always seen the family as the building block of the patriarchy. They hate it, and have always wanted to destroy it.

thats the point. its 2016. it is not hand to hand combat anymore. Women can fight. Armies have developed. No man will be in charge of me. I know my rights. Thats complete sickness. IT IS 2016. almost EVERYTHING changed. Where I live, its illegal to make the women listen to you especially when leaving the house. Times have changed. women have more rights now, yet here we see these smart men trying to deny the rights and calling it islamic protection. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Shia.a said:

thats the point. its 2016. it is not hand to hand combat anymore. Women can fight. Armies have developed. No man will be in charge of me. I know my rights. Thats complete sickness. IT IS 2016. almost EVERYTHING changed. Where I live, its illegal to make the women listen to you especially when leaving the house. Times have changed. women have more rights now, yet here we see these smart men trying to deny the rights and calling it islamic protection. 

No, you missed the point. Yes, a husband has a right to require his wife to inform him where she is going and stop her if he feels it is necessary, but he does not have the right to oppress or enslave her. A man bossing a woman around and lording his authority over her is not following Islam. A man (or anyone) being abusive has nothing to do with Islam. Islamic marriage is an agreement between equals, who agree to support and protect each other in whatever way they are able.

Edited by notme

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Shia.a said:

thats the point. its 2016. it is not hand to hand combat anymore. Women can fight. Armies have developed. No man will be in charge of me. I know my rights. Thats complete sickness. IT IS 2016. almost EVERYTHING changed. Where I live, its illegal to make the women listen to you especially when leaving the house. Times have changed. women have more rights now, yet here we see these smart men trying to deny the rights and calling it islamic protection. 

Please explain to me the relationship between the passing of time and the improvement of moral codes. I never understand why people state what year (or century) it is as if that's an argument. The Middle Ages came later than Classical Antiquity, but most Westerners generally tend to think Western civilization was more enlightened during Classical Antiquity (hence the Renaissance).

Anyway, as for the 'no man will be in charge of me' attitude, that has always been around, and isn't modern. There is a hadith that quotes a woman reacting in the same way when the Prophet (s) explained these things to her.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Salam,

I think societies evolve. A lot of religions have changed their view on gender roles and have come to evolve with the times. Like the Mormons once allowed polygamy but they eventually banned it, traditional christian societies once did not allow women to work or hold any position of power but that too changed.  I think Islam can change with the times as a lot of faiths have done. Also, how will getting the approval of a man when going out stop sexual abuse ? and in today's age if you fear sexual abuse you can buy a taser or peeper spray or even a gun if you live in the US, physical strength matter little in self defense. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Sawa said:

Salam,

I think societies evolve. A lot of religions have changed their view on gender roles and have come to evolve with the times.

They didn't 'evolve with the times', as if there is some 'moral evolution' going on. They caved in to the prevailing norms of the wider culture.

Quote

Like the Mormons once allowed polygamy but they eventually banned it,

Not all Mormons have banned it, and the reasons the others banned it had nothing to do with 'evolution'. They simply wanted to be accepted by the rest of society. Not to mention that polygamy was (and still is) illegal in the United States.

 

Quote

traditional christian societies once did not allow women to work or hold any position of power but that too changed.  

Which Christian societies didn't allow women to work or hold positions of power?

 

Quote

I think Islam can change with the times as a lot of faiths have done.

What does change mean? Going from believing something is commanded by God and that we should follow it, to believing that we can pick and choose what we want to follow, and that in any case God hasn't really communicated anything to us anyway? I'd rather pass on that kind of 'change'.

Quote

Also, how will getting the approval of a man when going out stop sexual abuse ? and in today's age if you fear sexual abuse you can buy a taser or peeper spray or even a gun if you live in the US, physical strength matter little in self defense. 

Physical strength matters little in self-defence? Huh? Trust me, even if there is a massive skill difference between a woman and a man, a big strength and size difference would still make any confrontation extremely dangerous for a woman. As for believing that a weapon of some sort makes a woman safe, I think that type of attitude can be extremely dangerous. Of course, it could be helpful in a worse-case scenario, but you really don't want to be in that situation.

Edited by Haydar Husayn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Sawa said:

Salam,

I think societies evolve. A lot of religions have changed their view on gender roles and have come to evolve with the times. Like the Mormons once allowed polygamy but they eventually banned it, traditional christian societies once did not allow women to work or hold any position of power but that too changed.  I think Islam can change with the times as a lot of faiths have done. Also, how will getting the approval of a man when going out stop sexual abuse ? and in today's age if you fear sexual abuse you can buy a taser or peeper spray or even a gun if you live in the US, physical strength matter little in self defense. 

Mormonism changed its rules on polygamy because it was a requirement for Utah to be accepted into the United States.

Christianity doesn't change. People who follow it do. Have you ever heard of "Proverbs 31"? It describes an "ideal" woman, and churches love to preach on it. This "Proverbs 31 woman" works from before sunup to after sundown, earning money so her husband can sit around at the city gates and brag about her to other men. Meanwhile, all her earnings belong to him. Is that what you want? 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...