Gender ROLES

[Sawa]

Salam,

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Which Christian societies didn't allow women to work or hold positions of power?

In the US and most of Europe women did not have the right to vote until the 20th century and they mostly did not work and stayed at home. Yet, western societies which were a lot more conservative and reflected their Christian identity changed with the emancipation and feminist movements of the early 20th century. 

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Going from believing something is commanded by God and that we should follow it, to believing that we can pick and choose what we want to follow, and that in any case God hasn't really communicated anything to us anyway?

God is the most merciful I do not believe he will send someone to hell for not following everything he commands absolutely, I think god understands society more than anyone. And there are tons of interpretations of the Quran. 

 

Also, society should discourage sexual assault, it shouldn't be on girls to worry if they are going to be assaulted when they go out. A society that excuses sexual assaults is not a healthy one. 

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Christianity doesn't change

 

 

 

 

It does, there are tons of different Christian sects that exist. And they probably look at that proverb that you provide differently. Christian women today don't live like they did 100 years ago, Christian societies have evolved over the time. 

[ShiaMan14]

5 minutes ago, Haimi said:

Then tell that to imam Khomeini r.a

care to cite the exact 'fatwa' or khutba where he said all the abuse men commit against women is due the length of their skirts include throwing acid on their faces.

[Haimi]

6 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

care to cite the exact 'fatwa' or khutba where he said all the abuse men commit against women is due the length of their skirts include throwing acid on their faces.

Reread my hadith of him again please.

No need for that, it has few words, no more no less.

Plus read Shahid Mutahhari r.a books about women, doesn't cost you a penny, trust me:)

[Haimi]

13 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

care to cite the exact 'fatwa' or khutba where he said all the abuse men commit against women is due the length of their skirts include throwing acid on their faces.

Plus you put things into my mouth, where did I say he said something like that?

Well time to unfollow the thread, I said what I had to say.

Edited September 19, 2016 by Haimi

[Guest]

On 18/09/2016 at 6:55 AM, Haimi said:

The Hadith: it's from the women's skirt, men goes to the ancestor.

Can you explain this please?

[ShiaMan14]

49 minutes ago, Haimi said:

Reread my hadith of him again please.

No need for that, it has few words, no more no less.

Plus read Shahid Mutahhari r.a books about women, doesn't cost you a penny, trust me:)

lol. I didnt know we attributed hadith to Ayatollah Khomeni.

[certainclarity]

38 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

lol. I didnt know we attributed hadith to Ayatollah Khomeni.

 

actually Hadith in Arabic means news/ speech / event 

If you look at Arabic news channels it says al Hadith/ al Hadath in some.

So it necessarily doesn't only mean the sayings of the prophet .

Because it is Arabic we automatically give it some holy attribute lol

Similar to the word ziyarat. If you go to Arabic countries for vacation they Stamp in your passport saying ziyarat , that doesn't mean you are going to a holy shrine ... though you maybe going to burj al Arab to have sushi by the deck lol.

Edited September 19, 2016 by certainclarity

[Ali al-Abdullah]

Guys, I think it's a troll. Look at this accounts earlier posts.

[ShiaMan14]

3 minutes ago, certainclarity said:

 

actually Hadith in Arabic means news/ speech / event 

If you look at Arabic news channels it says al Hadith in some.

So it necessarily doesn't only mean the sayings of the prophet .

Because it is Arabic we automatically give it some holy attribute lol

Similar to the word ziyarat. If you go to Arabic countries for vacation they Stamp in your passport saying ziyarat , that doesn't mean you are going to a holy shrine ... though you maybe going to burj al Arab to have sushi by the deck lol.

fair enough. I know what hadith is by definition; I just didnt know we used it in this form. For example, I have never heard anyone say, "I heard a hadith from Sistani..."

[certainclarity]

12 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

fair enough. I know what hadith is by definition; I just didnt know we used it in this form. For example, I have never heard anyone say, "I heard a hadith from Sistani..."

Probably when they speak Arabic they would use it.

Since we are not Arabic speakers it sounds abit odd.

Also mixing Arabic and English language could cause confusion.

Edited September 19, 2016 by certainclarity

[certainclarity]

1 hour ago, starlight said:

Can you explain this please?

lol...probably the brother did a word to word translation from a Persian proverb/ statement  ...

The proverb means men are raised in the laps of women  ..

Or the saying its from the laps of women that men go to meraj ...

maybe this is what he was trying to convey...,

Edited September 19, 2016 by certainclarity

[Haydar Husayn]

On 19 September 2016 at 7:19 PM, Sawa said:

Salam,

In the US and most of Europe women did not have the right to vote until the 20th century and they mostly did not work and stayed at home. Yet, western societies which were a lot more conservative and reflected their Christian identity changed with the emancipation and feminist movements of the early 20th century.

This isn't the same as saying that women couldn't work or have positions of power.

I don't believe Christian societies changed as a result of the feminist movement, rather I think that the feminist movement was a symptom of changes that had already taken place in those Christian societies. They had already lose their foundations, and hence couldn't resist this movement, and others such as the homosexual movement.

 

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God is the most merciful I do not believe he will send someone to hell for not following everything he commands absolutely, I think god understands society more than anyone. And there are tons of interpretations of the Quran. 

God will decide who to send to hell, but if you think God commanded something, then why wouldn't you want to follow it? Who are you trying to please, God, or the society around you?

As for the interpretations of the Qur'an, there may be tons of them, but some statements are still pretty clear, regardless of the interpretation, to the great chagrin of certain feminist Muslims.

 

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Also, society should discourage sexual assault, it shouldn't be on girls to worry if they are going to be assaulted when they go out. A society that excuses sexual assaults is not a healthy one. 

Who is excusing sexual assault? The point is that these things are part of reality, and saying that women shouldn't have to worry about it doesn't change that. People shouldn't have to worry about getting mugged when walking around dark alleyways in the early hours of the morning, but it's probably not a good idea to test that out. Society does discourage sexual assault, just as it discourages all sorts of crimes. It will never stop them from occurring though.

 

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It does, there are tons of different Christian sects that exist. And they probably look at that proverb that you provide differently. Christian women today don't live like they did 100 years ago, Christian societies have evolved over the time. 

These so-called Christian societies are no longer Christian! For that matter, most Christian Churches are no longer Christian. There are even Churches that accept pastors that don't believe in God.

Nobody has 'evolved'. What they have done is simply conform to modern secular society out of weakness. It hasn't saved them from irrelevance though. The fastest growing Churches are the ones that still take the Bible seriously. Why would anyone want to follow and intellectually and spiritually bankrupt religious organisation anyway?

Edited September 21, 2016 by Haydar Husayn

[Sumerian]

11 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

And no brother @Haimi - the problem is not women and their skirts.

Hijab and modest clothing stops females from being abused.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, E.L King said:

Hijab and modest clothing stops females from being abused.

Doesn't stop, just decreases the risk. 

[notme]

4 hours ago, E.L King said:

Hijab and modest clothing stops females from being abused.

This is very idealistic. It reduces the chances of strangers seeing her as an easy target. It doesn't prevent attacks and it doesn't protect against abusive family members. If modest clothing stopped abuse, every Muslim and non Muslim woman in the world would wear it. I wish it were that easy. 

[Bakir]

It factually doesn't prevent abuse. In another hand, I also doubt that if it did, all people would wear it.

The sin of rape in a rape case belongs to the rapist, not to the victim. If any, and according to our religion, the only sin of the victim would be the lack of modesty given the case, regardless if the victim is actually raped or not. Don't twist what it can't nor should ever be twisted.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Bakir

[Haydar Husayn]

2 hours ago, Ali al-Abdullah said:

Yes, because it does.

I'm sorry, but wearing modest clothing isn't a guarantee against sexual assault. It certainly helps a woman to not draw unwanted attention to herself, but it won't stop someone who is looking to assault women.

[Ali al-Abdullah]

1 hour ago, starlight said:

Are you saying that no woman in hijab has ever been harassed,  molested,  abused or raped?

No. I'm saying it's less likely.

51 minutes ago, Bakir said:

It factually doesn't prevent abuse. In another hand, I also doubt that if it did, all people would wear it.

The sin of rape in a rape case belongs to the rapist, not to the victim. If any, and according to our religion, the only sin of the victim would be the lack of modesty given the case, regardless if the victim is actually raped or not. Don't twist what it can't nor should ever be twisted.

How do you know? Do you think a rapist would want a half naked girl with make up wearing revealing clothing or someone you can't even see the face of?

Sin of rape belongs to the rapist, but the victim should also take necessary precaution.

[Hameedeh]

20 hours ago, Ali al-Abdullah said:

Read my comment to your friend.

@Ali al-Abdullah Please stop using these short sentences and make your replies more specific. You have replied to several people in this topic and it's not clear which 'friend' you are referring to. Also refrain from using the word 'it' in your replies, because we don't know what 'it' you are referring to.

Moderators, please remove replies that are incoherent or substandard.

[Sumerian]

 O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to bring down over themselves [part] of their outer garments. That is more suitable that they will be known and not be abused. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful. [3:59]

Edited September 21, 2016 by E.L King

[Shia.a]

14 hours ago, E.L King said:

 O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to bring down over themselves [part] of their outer garments. That is more suitable that they will be known and not be abused. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful. [3:59]

"Not be known"? What does that mean

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Shia.a said:

"Not be known"? What does that mean

It's 'will be known and not be abused'

[YeDokhtar]

On 9/18/2016 at 2:17 PM, notme said:

No, you missed the point. Yes, a husband has a right to require his wife to inform him where she is going and stop her if he feels it is necessary, but he does not have the right to oppress or enslave her. A man bossing a woman around and lording his authority over her is not following Islam. A man (or anyone) being abusive has nothing to do with Islam. Islamic marriage is an agreement between equals, who agree to support and protect each other in whatever way they are able.

But why can he stop her if he feels it is necessary? Is she not capable of understanding and making her own choices? I'm not bashing a more male dominant family system (I actually like the idea) but, the concept of getting permission from your spouse as if you are a child is quite...puzzling in the current day.

[YeDokhtar]

On 9/20/2016 at 3:13 PM, Ali al-Abdullah said:

No. I'm saying it's less likely.

How do you know? Do you think a rapist would want a half naked girl with make up wearing revealing clothing or someone you can't even see the face of?

Sin of rape belongs to the rapist, but the victim should also take necessary precaution.

I agree with the second bit about the victim taking precautions, but what about countries like Egypt where majority of women wear hijab and the sexual assault rate is incredibly high? 

[notme]

49 minutes ago, YeDokhtar said:

But why can he stop her if he feels it is necessary? Is she not capable of understanding and making her own choices? I'm not bashing a more male dominant family system (I actually like the idea) but, the concept of getting permission from your spouse as if you are a child is quite...puzzling in the current day.

I think it's going to depend somewhat on the times. A husband can't oppress or enslave his wife. He has to let her go out of its reasonable, and it's common courtesy to let your family know where you are going and when you will return. I do this without even thinking: "I'm going to the grocery store, and then pick up a prescription. Do you need anything while I'm out? I'll be back in about an hour." I don't even think of it as asking permission but if my husband asked me to stay in, I'd stay in without questioning his motives. He's a reasonable man, I'd trust that his reason is real and valid. 

To be honest, though, my husband announces his errands to me too. I'd find it strange and worrisome if a married couple generally didn't know where the other spouse is. 

[Ali al-Abdullah]

59 minutes ago, YeDokhtar said:

I agree with the second bit about the victim taking precautions, but what about countries like Egypt where majority of women wear hijab and the sexual assault rate is incredibly high? 

Well in Egypt im sure everyone wears hijab, so they have go after them. But yes Egypt has a bad society, Salafis and Sunnis persecuting Copts, rape, etc.

[shymueen]

Dear All,

I have read many of the posts regarding men and women behaviour towards each other and their rights and duties. But I think as the title of the group is Gender, so we should first try to understand the term explicitly in order to debate on it. Sex is a biological or physiological term whereas gender is a psychological term. So when we talk about the gender its not about male and female, its about the difference between the thinking of two individuals. 

Islam has recommended a female to stay at home but has also allowed her to leave at the time of need. In my opinion this is because for our own good. As a female I think that we are more safe and protected at our homes rather than outside. 

[JasmineAila]

Yap gender talks about "the Role" of both sexes (in domestic and public). Literally not only the way of thinking, but also the way we act, the way we contribute, and how we deal.

eg : a husband chooses to be a stay at-home-Dad during the weekend, spending more time with the kids, doing house hold chores; cooking, etc. While his wife attends a French course. -)

 

Society has been morally corrupted, almost everywhere.. 

The practice of procuring, raping, and torturing women was conducted openly, without fear of any form of sanction. (It also happens to men/boys in prisons; madrasah/Islamic school for males - but it hardly ever to find/meet victim who want to share his dark story)

In a province of Ina, Aceh, which adopt syar'i law upon the society as "The law of kekhususan" (unsure how they call it in Malaysia, and Saudi :s), when victims of sexual violence complained to the legal authorities about what had taken place, their request for help was generally met with denial and aggression (its even more tougher for those who works as a labourer). 

In some cases (husband - wife relationship), women who complained, were beaten or punished for doing so. 

Idk whether this is a common phenomena in a third world country.

[YAli]

On 9/18/2016 at 5:46 PM, Shia.a said:

 

Oh, I get it now. I'm sorry. I didn't know women are too weak to take care of themselves. I didnt know women couldnt leave the house without her husbands permission, since you know, husbands know everything. For a second there I almost thought women were, strong independent and dont need to depend on a man. My bad. I almost thought women are equal. I understand now. I cannot wait to get an education and become a doctor just to find out I can only leave the house by the rules of another man. May god curse me for all the times I went to work and made MY OWN money. but hey-at least I can repent. Men are wise. Sorry for being so selfish.

sincerly,

us spoiled women.

 

@Haydar Husayn

Salaam Sis... can i hazard a guess please... are you 

1) from the asian sub continent 

2)Did you grow up in a household like @starlight where your mother was abused (by a culturally inclined man), and she pushed you to study JUST so you can gain independence and free yourself from every man on earth.

3) Neither your mother nor your father ever taught you about the details and WHYs of Islam, such as why Allah ordained inheritance laws to be the way they are, why a woman should wear hijab, why Allah has told a man to look after his household (And by look after i mean love them in every way. Not just provide and be miserable all the time)

4) Your father was not loving to your mother, i mean like real love, and saying really nice things and compliments. NOT the Asian love/nice where he comes home shouts in the native language for some chapatti. 

I apologise in advance if these are really personal questions/points, but i am doing some research, and i am finding a lot of the same. Including from parts of my own family. As i refer to this; the Muslims community has sleepwalked into a danger zone over the past 50/80 years. 

[Islandsandmirrors]

Man, the sexism in this thread.

I don't believe in gender roles. They limit people. 

[kamyar]

9 minutes ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

Man, the sexism in this thread.

I don't believe in gender roles. They limit people. 

Actually the gender roles are there to limit people, which is its benefit and based on people's unchangeable nature.

[Reza]

17 minutes ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

 

I don't believe in gender roles. They limit people. 

Just like gravity does. 

[Islandsandmirrors]

18 minutes ago, kamyar said:

Actually the gender roles are there to limit people, which is its benefit and based on people's unchangeable nature.

Why be limited to stereotypes and societal expectations?

Not every man is a football-obsessed, angry, controlling "leader" who is incapable of emotional expression and not every girl dreams of her wedding night and longs to be "saved" by a man on his white horse and spends hours giggling on the phone. 

To encourage such nonsense is terrible and backwards thinking. Not to mention it stunts growth and the ability well-rounded, balanced indivuals. 

Edited December 5, 2016 by Islandsandmirrors

[Gaius I. Caesar]

22 minutes ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

Man, the sexism in this thread.

I don't believe in gender roles. They limit people. 

I agree but gender roles do have their uses, again it depends on the person and how they do that specific role. Limits are in the mind only and can be reimagined as a strength.

 

[Haydar Husayn]

3 minutes ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

Why be limited to stereotypes and societal expectations?

Not every man is a football-obsessed, angry, controlling "leader" who is incapable of emotional expression and not every girl dreams of her wedding night and longs to be "saved" by a man on his white horse and spends hours giggling on the phone. 

To encourage such nonsense is terrible and backwards thinking. 

It's telling that you have to mistepresent what people mean by gender roles in order to attack their position. I don't think anyone is claiming that men and women need to behave in the supposedly stereotypical ways that you present.

On the wider point about gender roles being nonsense and 'backwards thinking' (which doesn't really mean anything by the way), then I don't see why they are any more nonsense than species roles. Should humans be free to behave like animals if they want to? Why be limited to behaving like a stereotypical human? There is some guy who decided to live like a goat for a while. I guess he didn't want to be limited either. 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3612748/Why-decided-life-London-goat-Switzerland.html

Having gender roles makes perfect sense given that men and women are different. Just as people with different physical attributes play different roles in sports teams, men and women perform different roles in society. This is also something we observe in nature.