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submitter71

Who are the Mustad`afoon? Are they Sunnis?

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Salam all. 

 

I previously started a thread on whether or not those that disbelieved in the Imams are going to hell. The thread included a couple of hadiths and a bunch of statements from scholars that suggested that those that reject them will indeed go to hell. 

This is a problem since Sunnis do not believe in the twelve imams and we Sunnis make up the vast majority of the nation. 

Soon, three brothers suggested that this is incorrect and that Sunnis will not fall into this category since they are mustad`af. 

Those that have heard the term before will usually believe that a mustad`af is an "average Sunnis" or that are not scholars or not into polemics and don't have a deep understanding of the Sunni and Shia debate.

I then found some interesting narrations from the Imams, who are the ultimate source for our understanding of the Shia beliefs, and they said something else.

 

Al Kafi - Chapter of the Mustad`af - hadith 2

Al Baqir said: They are those that do not have the ability to reach Eman or Kufur. They are the children or men and women that have minds like children.

Majlisi said it is authentic.

 

Does everyone here agree with this narration? Did Majlisi get it wrong when he said it is authentic? Or are Sunnis really doomed to go to hell? Or did I just misunderstand everything? 

 

 

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5 hours ago, submitter71 said:

Al Baqir said: They are those that do not have the ability to reach Eman or Kufur.

Bismillah

Salam Alaykum.

First of all its Imam Al Baqir A.S.! Second of all just understand what he is saying, even if this is not authentic, try to comprehend it, its pretty much self explanatory. It means people who are mentally challenged, another words mental retardation who can not know the difference between right and wrong, good or bad will not be questioned about their Iman/good or bad deeds or going to hell! Sometimes I wonder what the heck you Wahabis/salafis have inside your head,  coming up with weird question like this!

Wasalam.

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6 hours ago, MuhammadXII said:

I'm Sunni too, gonna see what ShiaChatters have to say about this. 

You are not Sunni, please stop giving our Sunni brothers and sisters a bad name, you are a Wahabi/Salafi and you are here to create fitna!  May Allah swt eradicate all the enemies of Ahlul Bayt a.s Insha Allah very soon and hasten to return of Imam e zaman a.s. Lanat on the enemies of Ahlul Bayt a.s.

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48 minutes ago, Unity4Imam said:

You are not Sunni, please stop giving our Sunni brothers and sisters a bad name, you are a Wahabi/Salafi and you are here to create fitna!  May Allah swt eradicate all the enemies of Ahlul Bayt a.s Insha Allah very soon and hasten to return of Imam e zaman a.s. Lanat on the enemies of Ahlul Bayt a.s.

No, I am not Salafi. I hate Ibn Taymiyyah, Muhammad Ibn Abd Al Wahab, and the Saud family with a passion. Stop accusing me of being a Wahhabi. The reality is that you yourself are Wahhabi and in order to hide the reality, you are accusing others of being Wahhabi/Salafi. Go join your Bakri death squad brethren in Iraq and Syria, it is the least you can do. 

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8 hours ago, submitter71 said:

Salam all. 

 

I previously started a thread on whether or not those that disbelieved in the Imams are going to hell. The thread included a couple of hadiths and a bunch of statements from scholars that suggested that those that reject them will indeed go to hell. 

This is a problem since Sunnis do not believe in the twelve imams and we Sunnis make up the vast majority of the nation. 

Soon, three brothers suggested that this is incorrect and that Sunnis will not fall into this category since they are mustad`af. 

Those that have heard the term before will usually believe that a mustad`af is an "average Sunnis" or that are not scholars or not into polemics and don't have a deep understanding of the Sunni and Shia debate.

I then found some interesting narrations from the Imams, who are the ultimate source for our understanding of the Shia beliefs, and they said something else.

 

Al Kafi - Chapter of the Mustad`af - hadith 2

Al Baqir said: They are those that do not have the ability to reach Eman or Kufur. They are the children or men and women that have minds like children.

Majlisi said it is authentic.

 

Does everyone here agree with this narration? Did Majlisi get it wrong when he said it is authentic? Or are Sunnis really doomed to go to hell? Or did I just misunderstand everything? 

 

 

Wa alaykum salaam...,

Those deprived Sunni Muslims who in one way or the others could not get access to necessary information about the pristine Islam are also considered as 'Mustad'feen' and they are definitely being excused.

Allah knows Best.

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Quote

I previously started a thread on whether or not those that disbelieved in the Imams are going to hell. The thread included a couple of hadiths and a bunch of statements from scholars that suggested that those that reject them will indeed go to hell. 

This is a problem since Sunnis do not believe in the twelve imams and we Sunnis make up the vast majority of the nation. 

Salaam Aleikum,

I think Qa'im gave you very good answer in that thread. Anyway, by rejecting and are kafirs, we mean only those people who have knowledge about the haqq that the Imams are the Hujjah of Allah (swt) and  at same time they reject it with knowing it is haqq. There are good threads about this same issue from the past, it is good idea to search about them.

Edited by Dhulfikar

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17 hours ago, The Batman said:

Also another sahih hadith said that the mustad'af is he who can't tell the differences between the people.

Please quote the hadith brother. Also, does that mean that the narration that I quoted is weak.

 

I have not seen anyone respond to, explain, or discuss the narration I have presented. 

 

 

So far, there have been 14 replies in this thread. Much of the posts are accusations of Wahabism sadly.

Please stick to the topic everyone.

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6 hours ago, submitter71 said:

Please quote the hadith brother. Also, does that mean that the narration that I quoted is weak.

 

I have not seen anyone respond to, explain, or discuss the narration I have presented. 

 

 

So far, there have been 14 replies in this thread. Much of the posts are accusations of Wahabism sadly.

Please stick to the topic everyone.

 

Imam Al-Sadiq (as) said: “Whoever knows the differences among people is not a powerless person.”

Sanad: Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father from ibn abu ‘Umayr from abu al-Maghra’ from abu Basir who said the above hadith 
Source: Usool Al-Kafi, Volume 2, Chapter 172, Hadith #10 
Grading:
– Bahboody says Sahih (صحيح)
– Allaamah Majlisi (rh) says Good as Sahih (حسن كالصحيح) [Mira’at Al-Uqool, Volume 11, Page 213]

http://purifiedhousehold.com/salvation-of-non-shias/

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Sunni view on imams differ from shias. To my knwledge, sunnis hold the following views on imams from Banu Hasim:

Only two of them became Caliphs. They all were leaders of Muslims for they all were upright and were learned scholars in deen i Islam. Like Imam Hasan (ra) and Imam Hussain (ra) were sufficient for people to lead them in religious as well as other matters at the same time or Like Imam Baqir and Imam Zayd were capable of leading any Muslim in religious as well as other matters. But they all had different achievements and experiences in practical lives. And they would be remembered accordingly.

They belonged to the most respectable family, the family of Muhammad (saw) and had a spiritual influence on other Muslims. Their respect and love is a fundamental part of Deen e Islam. Imam Mehdi will be born before end times who will be a descendant of Prophet (saw) and would lead the ummah.

I guess the other differences are that the imams were not infallible. Their imamah is not divinely appointed like nabuwat of Anbiya. All the authority of the prophet (saw) for instance ruling ummah did not automatically transfer to imams right after him.

I still think that the above view is still far from the view of Shias on imamat.

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1 hour ago, Bukhari8k said:

Sunni view on imams differ from shias. To my knwledge, sunnis hold the following views on imams from Banu Hasim:

Only two of them became Caliphs. They all were leaders of Muslims for they all were upright and were learned scholars in deen i Islam. Like Imam Hasan (ra) and Imam Hussain (ra) were sufficient for people to lead them in religious as well as other matters at the same time or Like Imam Baqir and Imam Zayd were capable of leading any Muslim in religious as well as other matters. But they all had different achievements and experiences in practical lives. And they would be remembered accordingly.

Brother how do you interpret that the caliph / khalifa mentioned in the hadith of 12 caliphs after the prophet  means a people chosen caliph?

how this  interpretation of peole chosen caliph is justified with the presence of the verses of quran: like :

Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent (khalifa) on earth." (2:30)

How any interpretation against verses of quran can be acceptable?

WS

 

 

 

Edited by skamran110

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On ۱۳۹۵/۶/۲۴ ه‍.ش. at 2:59 AM, submitter71 said:

Salam all. 

Does everyone here agree with this narration? Did Majlisi get it wrong when he said it is authentic? Or are Sunnis really doomed to go to hell? Or did I just misunderstand everything? 

Salam.

 

In Zyarat Jame Kabir we read :

وَمَنْ جَحَدَكُمْ كَافِرٌ

He who denies you is unbeliever,

وَمَنْ حَارَبَكُمْ مُشْرِكٌ

he who makes war against you is polytheist,

http://www.duas.org/commonziarats.htm#JAMIAKABIRA

Yes he who denies them they are kafir. But we should pay attention that the Arabic word (جَحَدَ) means that someone knowingly denies something, there is a big difference.

 

Again in that Zyarat we read :

In the presence of Allah the Almighty and All-majestic, I repudiate your enemies, all idols, false deities, the devils, and their party who have wronged you, denied your rights, apostatized from your (divinely commissioned) leadership, usurped your inheritance, arisen doubts about you, and deviated from you, and (I repudiate) any adherence to anyone other than you, any obeyed one save you, and the leaders who call to Hellfire. May Allah make me firm forever as long as I am alive.

http://www.duas.org/commonziarats.htm#JAMIAKABIRA

 

So as we see there are many classes of people those who knowingly deny, those who are confused, those who are deviated and .......

 

I remember a hadith which says most of people are not believers to Imams but they are included in the intercession of Rasulullah and Ahlul Bait. I could not find this hadith though. I remember it was mentioned in the book of Haghul Yaghin of Majlisi and I think it was from Imam Riza (AS).

The view of Shia scholars are also vivid. They believe this is kufr against belief not Islam. Shia scholars permit Shias to marry Sunnies or eat their food and .... even there are Sahih hadithes from Jafar ibn Muhammad (AS) that Shias should pray behind Sunnies, behave with them nicely, and should preserve their rights and ........

 

 

Edited by maes

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4 hours ago, maes said:

The view of Shia scholars are also vivid. They believe this is kufr against belief not Islam. Shia scholars permit Shias to marry Sunnies or eat their food and .... even there are Sahih hadithes from Jafar ibn Muhammad (AS) that Shias should pray behind Sunnies, behave with them nicely, and should preserve their rights and ........

 

It is easy to reconcile what you have mentioned with the narrations I shared in this thread and my previous one. Yes, Shias can pray behind Sunnis and behave nicely towards them, but the Sunnis will still be in hell in the afterlife. 

Please see my previous thread by clicking on the link in my first post if you haven't already. 

 

How are we supposed to understand the hadith in my first post? It clearly limits the mustad`afoon to those with mind of children.

 

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As far as i remember when i read the hadith books.

I found out that sunnis who die ignorant are not equals not nasibis(one who rejects -kafir- the imams). Sunnis will be judged on the day of judgement. 

 

Anyone who dies with knowing the reality of the situation isn't at fault. 

 

ـ الإمامُ عليٌّ (عَلَيهِ الّسَلامُ): إنَّ لِلجَنّةِ ثَمانِيَةَ أبوابٍ: بابٌ يَدخُلُ مِنهُ النَّبِيّونَ والصِّدِّيقونَ ، وبابٌ يَدخُلُ مِنهُ الشُّهَداءُ والصّالِحونَ ، وخَمسَةُ أبْوابٍ يَدخُلُ مِنها شِيعَتُنا ومُحِبّونا ...، وبابٌ يَدخُلُ مِنهُ سائـرُ المُسلِمينَ مِمَّنْ شَهِدَ أنْ لا إلهَ إلّا اللّه‏ُ ، ولَم يَكُنْ في قَلبِهِ مِقْدارُ ذَرَّةٍ مِن بُغْضِنا أهلَ البَيتِ. 

Imam Ali (AS) said, ‘Paradise has eight doors: a door through which the prophets and the truthful ones will enter, a door through which the martyrs and the righteous will enter, five doors through which our shi`a and our lovers will enter …, a door through which the rest of the Muslims will enter, that is, those that bear witness to ‘There is no god but Allah’ and who do not bear an atom’s weight of enmity towards us, the ahl al-bayt.’[al-Khisal, p. 408, no. 6]

 

If you say sunnis hold enmoty against ahlul bayt thats another issue.

 

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6 minutes ago, Lordofgemini said:

 

ـ الإمامُ عليٌّ (عَلَيهِ الّسَلامُ): إنَّ لِلجَنّةِ ثَمانِيَةَ أبوابٍ: بابٌ يَدخُلُ مِنهُ النَّبِيّونَ والصِّدِّيقونَ ، وبابٌ يَدخُلُ مِنهُ الشُّهَداءُ والصّالِحونَ ، وخَمسَةُ أبْوابٍ يَدخُلُ مِنها شِيعَتُنا ومُحِبّونا ...، وبابٌ يَدخُلُ مِنهُ سائـرُ المُسلِمينَ مِمَّنْ شَهِدَ أنْ لا إلهَ إلّا اللّه‏ُ ، ولَم يَكُنْ في قَلبِهِ مِقْدارُ ذَرَّةٍ مِن بُغْضِنا أهلَ البَيتِ. 

Imam Ali (AS) said, ‘Paradise has eight doors: a door through which the prophets and the truthful ones will enter, a door through which the martyrs and the righteous will enter, five doors through which our shi`a and our lovers will enter …, a door through which the rest of the Muslims will enter, that is, those that bear witness to ‘There is no god but Allah’ and who do not bear an atom’s weight of enmity towards us, the ahl al-bayt.’[al-Khisal, p. 408, no. 6]

 

Is this hadith authentic brother? 

Any comments on the first hadith I quoted?

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47 minutes ago, submitter71 said:

Yes, Shias can pray behind Sunnis and behave nicely towards them, but the Sunnis will still be in hell in the afterlife. 

Well, If they are in hell, let it be. I fear that I go to hell too. I believe and feel that Shias are more nearer to hell than Sunnies !

Because Shias may know many truths well and still they commit sin or big mistakes or even they may betray Ahlul Bait then there is a big danger that they become those hypocrites whose place are in the deepest parts of hell, even their place may be worse than some kuffars.

Mamun, the Abbasid king, knew the truths very well, he was pseudo-shia and did what he did.

A Shia believe Allah is just and no hadith can change this principal.

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9 hours ago, Lordofgemini said:

As far as i remember when i read the hadith books.

I found out that sunnis who die ignorant are not equals not nasibis(one who rejects -kafir- the imams). Sunnis will be judged on the day of judgement. 

 

Anyone who dies with knowing the reality of the situation isn't at fault. 

 

ـ الإمامُ عليٌّ (عَلَيهِ الّسَلامُ): إنَّ لِلجَنّةِ ثَمانِيَةَ أبوابٍ: بابٌ يَدخُلُ مِنهُ النَّبِيّونَ والصِّدِّيقونَ ، وبابٌ يَدخُلُ مِنهُ الشُّهَداءُ والصّالِحونَ ، وخَمسَةُ أبْوابٍ يَدخُلُ مِنها شِيعَتُنا ومُحِبّونا ...، وبابٌ يَدخُلُ مِنهُ سائـرُ المُسلِمينَ مِمَّنْ شَهِدَ أنْ لا إلهَ إلّا اللّه‏ُ ، ولَم يَكُنْ في قَلبِهِ مِقْدارُ ذَرَّةٍ مِن بُغْضِنا أهلَ البَيتِ. 

Imam Ali (AS) said, ‘Paradise has eight doors: a door through which the prophets and the truthful ones will enter, a door through which the martyrs and the righteous will enter, five doors through which our shi`a and our lovers will enter …, a door through which the rest of the Muslims will enter, that is, those that bear witness to ‘There is no god but Allah’ and who do not bear an atom’s weight of enmity towards us, the ahl al-bayt.’[al-Khisal, p. 408, no. 6]

 

If you say sunnis hold enmoty against ahlul bayt thats another issue.

 

There are other hadiths which show that not having the wilaya of Ahlulbayt means going to Hell. In anyway, all the actions of non-Shi'a are batil because they are wrong (for example, their prayer).

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14 hours ago, submitter71 said:

 

Is this hadith authentic brother? 

Any comments on the first hadith I quoted?

I am no scholar of rijal, and imo by what i know of rijal, its just a system created by men to authenticate something according to narrators -by checking their character-

Such a system -reason dictates- can never be perfect. So although its good and all. One should always reflect hadith with the Quran and reason. And even if it is authentic or unauthentic. If it follows reasons and goes along with Quran. It should be considered. And if it doesn't, it can be discarded.

As for the hadith you quoted it is just one of many, one must always study the hadith holistically to grasp the concepts. So he should look at other similar hadith. To understand it. In your previous thread a member shared some insightful traditions, as follows:

 

as-Sadiq (a.s.) said explaining this verse: " 'who have not in their power the means' to our enmity, so that they could have got ill-feelings [towards us], 'nor are able to find a way' to the truth, that they could come on the right path; they will enter the garden because of their good deeds and their abstaining from the unlawful things forbid­den by Allah, but they will not get the rank of the righteous ones." (at-Tafsir, al-'Ayyashi)


Ali (a.s.) said: "The name of weakness is not used for him to whom the proof has reached, and his ears heard it and his heart understood it." (Nahju'l-balaghah)

al-Kazim (a.s.) was asked about the weak ones. He (a.s.) wrote: "The weak is he to whom proof has not been conveyed and who is unaware of [religious] difference. But he is no weaker once he knew the difference." (al-Kafi)

 

So by these definition a regular sunni is weak since he doesn't know the truth. He submits himself to Allah and follows what he know best. -although its upon everyone to research, not many do, they might be questioned for this matter- he will die as a weak one and will be treated according to his deeds. 

But if he found that truth is with the ahlul bayt and not imam hanifa or malil or the caliphs. And still doesn't become a shia. Now he has rejected them i.e. done kufr. Then things go downhill from there. 

 

Also there are hadith present which says anyone and everyone who dies is visited by prophet Muhammad(s) and Imam Ali (as) /panjitan pak/14 infallibles. If its were an honest seeker of truth he will accept them and become a shia there and then. But if he held enmity against them he will not be able to because of his pride. Like iblees could never accept Adam (as).

Anyway i pray that you find the sirat al mustaqeem. His mercy precedes His wrath.

 

Edited by Lordofgemini

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5 hours ago, The Batman said:

There are other hadiths which show that not having the wilaya of Ahlulbayt means going to Hell. In anyway, all the actions of non-Shi'a are batil because they are wrong (for example, their prayer).

If you carefully study them you will find that it always says something like those who reject the wilaya of Ali, or those who doesn't accept etc. Not ones who or ignorant about it. And again i mentioned in the last paragraph my previous post how things works out ultimately.

Edited by Lordofgemini

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1 hour ago, Lordofgemini said:

If you carefully study them you will find that it always says something like those who reject the wilaya of Ali, or those who doesn't accept etc. Not ones who or ignorant about it. And again i mentioned in the last paragraph my previous post how things works out ultimately.

Of course. I am not speaking about the ignorant ones brother. 

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4 hours ago, Lordofgemini said:

I am no scholar of rijal, and imo by what i know of rijal, its just a system created by men to authenticate something according to narrators -by checking their character-

Such a system -reason dictates- can never be perfect. So although its good and all. One should always reflect hadith with the Quran and reason. And even if it is authentic or unauthentic. If it follows reasons and goes along with Quran. It should be considered. And if it doesn't, it can be discarded.

As for the hadith you quoted it is just one of many, one must always study the hadith holistically to grasp the concepts. So he should look at other similar hadith. 

 

As much as we'd all love to brush the takfeer hadiths aside, it seems that these hadiths were adopted by the top early scholars. If we argue that the Rijal system should be pushed aside and that the top early scholars got it wrong, then selectively chose the hadiths that fit into our set of values, then wouldn't everything in Islam be extremely subjective and the ability to arrive at the truth of orthodox Shiasm be impossible?

 

Perhaps the best line of action is to attempt to reconcile these hadiths instead of pushing away the ones that don't appeal to us. 

 

Edited by submitter71

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4 minutes ago, submitter71 said:

 

As much as we'd all love to brush the takfeer hadiths aside, it seems that these hadiths were adopted by the top early scholars. If we argue that the Rijal system should be pushed aside and that the top early scholars got it wrong, then selectively chose the hadiths that fit into our set of values, then wouldn't everything in Islam be extremely subjective and the ability to arrive at the truth of orthodox Shiasm be impossible?

 

Perhaps the best line of action is to attempt to reconcile these hadiths instead of pushing away the ones that don't appeal to us. 

 

We don't push rijal aside, it has its own worth.

But one must realize in order to get to the truth you don't have to get into every debate and fret over every detail. Getting deeper and deeper into more troubles created by the humans themselves. It will send him in an ever ending path of confusion.

A persons aqeedah is a subjective thing, he follows what he 'think' is right and 'Gods religion'. Once i decide most of what 12wer shias believe is correct and not the ismalis or zaidis or sunnis. And i was sincere in my research and stuck to what my zameer told me what was right. And taking help from the Quran. I doubt Allah would punish me for it.

Rather there are more important things to worry about, knowing the self, humbling the self, morally improving ourself. Submit to God.

 

I question you rather,

How does a person arrive at truth? Say i am an atheist. What would i use to guide myself to truth? Elaborate.

 

 

As for reconciliation every hadith one should follow what is right.

 

Here is the hadith you ask about.

Al Baqir said: They are those that do not have the ability to reach Eman or Kufur. They are the children or men and women that have minds like children.

If you had tried to understand it in light of the ones i shared with you, you would have found your answer. 

How i can understand this is it talks about mentally retarded here. Like the ignorant they are also saved for the hell fire. But to the truest sense. Since they never had the ability.

 

 

There are hadith on the topic of showing the truth to people. Allahs says its His job. Once one is show the truth only then they are responsible. I suggest you sincerely read the the entire book. Without picking on thinks you want to pick and instead look for what you find to be true. Perhaps it will help you more in the hereafter then bickering of little things.

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4 minutes ago, Lordofgemini said:

Here is the hadith you ask about.

Al Baqir said: They are those that do not have the ability to reach Eman or Kufur. They are the children or men and women that have minds like children.

If you had tried to understand it in light of the ones i shared with you, you would have found your answer. 

How i can understand this is it talks about mentally retarded here. Like the ignorant they are also saved for the hell fire. But to the truest sense. Since they never had the ability.

 

 

There are hadith on the topic of showing the truth to people. Allahs says its His job. Once one is show the truth only then they are responsible. I suggest you sincerely read the the entire book. Without picking on thinks you want to pick and instead look for what you find to be true. Perhaps it will help you more in the hereafter then bickering of little things.

 

I agree with you. The hadith is clearly about the mentally retarded. How can we reconcile it with the other hadith though? 

Which book bro?

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13 minutes ago, submitter71 said:

 

I agree with you. The hadith is clearly about the mentally retarded. How can we reconcile it with the other hadith though? 

Which book bro?

Other hadith mentioned:

Ali (a.s.) said: "The name of weakness is not used for him to whom the proof has reached, and his ears heard it and his heart understood it." (Nahju'l-balaghah)

al-Kazim (a.s.) was asked about the weak ones. He (a.s.) wrote: "The weak is he to whom proof has not been conveyed and who is unaware of [religious] difference. But he is no weaker once he knew the difference." (al-Kafi)

 

Someone who is basically ignorant. I.e. lets say he was a farmer. Grew up know only one form of islam. His heart was at peace with it. And followed it sincerely. Is he not considered one on whom differences in religion has not been conveyed. He will be judged according to his deeds.

Like wise a common sunni is weak as -quoting- "proof has not been conveyed" 

So he cant be judged for his aqeedah, some like that of a mentally retarded.

 

 

But if he had doubts about his religion and he didn't research. He may be questioned. So he is not as free as a retarded. Not as weak as the retarded. But still weak. 

 

Al kafi brother. The one you quoted.

 

Edited by Lordofgemini

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