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How to prove ismaili belief is false

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Just now, Ali al-Abdullah said:

Yes, five daily prayers is definitely Islamic. You can be a non muslim alevi kafir, but don't try to lie about Islam.

Salaam alaikum,

Please educate me then.  I never said they weren't Islamic, but I did say that that the Qur'an does not go further than the commandment to establish and keep up the prayers.  It does not specify 5x a day and it does not specify the form of the prayers.  That is from the Sunnah of the Holy Prophet (SAWAS)

I am a Muslim; I follow the Ja'fari school, so I do believe in 5 prayers per day, but I also know that it does not explicitly spell it out as we know it today.

I am not lying about Islam, If I am in error, then teach me. But I will ask you to remember the manner in which RasulAllah (SAWAS) taught others and dealt with them.

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Just now, reisiger said:

Salaam alaikum,

Please educate me then.  I never said they weren't Islamic, but I did say that that the Qur'an does not go further than the commandment to establish and keep up the prayers.  It does not specify 5x a day and it does not specify the form of the prayers.  That is from the Sunnah of the Holy Prophet (SAWAS)

I am a Muslim; I follow the Ja'fari school, so I do believe in 5 prayers per day, but I also know that it does not explicitly spell it out as we know it today.

I am not lying about Islam, If I am in error, then teach me. But I will ask you to remember the manner in which RasulAllah (SAWAS) taught others and dealt with them.

Then why are you saying things like  that? don't let this Sufi alevi fool you, you  are a follower of the best school in  Islam.

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Alevî mystic Hacı bektaş veli:

Seek and find.

To search / investigate is an open exam.

A path without knowledge will end in darkness.

Be in control of your hands (actions), tongue (speech), and loins (desires).

Whatever you do, do it for the Truth.

There exists in you a “there is” to replace every “there isn't.”

He who walks the Path never tires.

There is no rank or station higher than the Friend's heart.

The one who is wise but doesn't share his wisdom is ignorant.

To the ignorant, abandoning what is no longer needed is death; to the wise it is birth.

There is no repentance of repentance.

Let your heart, your hand, and your table be open to others.

Look for the key to all within your deepest being.

Whatever you seek, look within.

Do not forget your enemy is also a human being.

The beauty of human beings is the beauty of their words.

If the path appears dark, know that the veil is in your own eyes.

All blessings upon the one who overlooks another's shortcomings.

All blessings upon the one who makes a secret of secrets.

The Word (Quran) is Truth.

Do not hurt others, even if you are hurt.

Hand-in-hand, hand in Truth.

One hour of meditation is better than seventy years of piety.

The greatest book to read is the human being.

Be connected to your religion with your heart, not with your knees.

Educate your women, a nation that doesn't educate its women cannot progress.[33]

Prophets and saints are a gift from God to mankind.

Our path is based on the akhlaq of Muhammad and the adab of Ali.

The basis of Islam is akhlaq, the basis of akhlaq is knowledge, the basis of knowledge is intellect.

Whatever the language, religion or color of one might be, a good human being is a good human being.

A man who wastes his time while his heart is full of love for God, is better than a man who reads the Qur'an day and night while his heart is filled with the desire of this world.

For those who have Awareness, a hint is quite enough. For the multitudes of heedless, mere knowledge is useless.

The Quran is a letter from the Loving One to the beloved.

O dervish, know that the Quran is the Word of God, and a book that is revealed to the Prophet to appoint him as a messenger to mankind.[34]

A dervish should spend all his time with Allah, all his breath should be spent telling about Allah.

Doing good in return for evil is essence of being human.

Never desire fame, fame is disaster.

He who cannot clean himself cannot clean others.

First door of those with knowledge is decency.

Haqq (Allah) is more visible than the sun.[35]

Honesty is the door of a friend.

Being a teacher is to give, not to take.

The universe is for man, and man for the universe.

Science illuminates the paths of truth.

We travel in the way of science/knowledge, comprehension and human love.

Let’s be one, be big and energetic.

In the language of friendly conversation, you can’t discriminate between man and woman.

Everything God has created is in order.

There is no need to discriminate between religions. Religions cause disputes among people. In fact, all religions aim to provide peace and brotherhood on earth

 

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12 hours ago, Ali al-Abdullah said:

Then why are you saying things like  that? don't let this Sufi alevi fool you, you  are a follower of the best school in  Islam.

Brother please show me five daily prayers in the Quran.

You can't it's not there, it came after Seljuk and Ottoman empire, They enforced their beliefs etc via Zoroastrian 

Made hadiths , fatwa's etc 

 

Did you know the founder of hanefi sunni was Persian?

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10 hours ago, AleviTurkmenKhorasan said:

Brother please show me five daily prayers in the Quran.

You can't it's not there, it came after Seljuk and Ottoman empire, They enforced their beliefs etc via Zoroastrian 

Made hadiths , fatwa's etc 

 

Did you know the founder of hanefi sunni was Persian?

It's curious that you mentioned this- I just read an article or an essay very recently that made exactly that point about Abu Hanifa. 

 

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On 12/8/2016 at 6:56 PM, AleviTurkmenKhorasan said:

Brother please show me five daily prayers in the Quran.

You can't it's not there, it came after Seljuk and Ottoman empire, They enforced their beliefs etc via Zoroastrian 

Made hadiths , fatwa's etc 

 

Did you know the founder of hanefi sunni was Persian?

Every religion has been influenced by previous religions. Many religions saw the good of past religions and decided to use the traditions. Many saw the bad in previous religions and dropped certain traditions. If you are talking about the oldest religion on earth, there's a good chance you will see similarities.

To add confusion to the mix, some traditions overlay past pagan traditions, not because it stemmed from whatever preceded, but to mask it, cover it, get the people to forget past paganism. 

Getting people to pray 5 times a day is not a bad thing. It may have come from an earlier religious practice, but obviously not a bad one. Of course each religion has to make it unique, possibly to the point you cannot identify the original tradition, (without major research), but if it teaches proper morals and principle, what's the problem?

There doesn't seem to be any financial advantage to the leaders by their people praying 5 times a day, As I understand it, some prayers are in congregation, and others are in private.

In Christianity, you will see many public prayers, they also have prayer meetings, but are told explicitly, besides all that, pray in private...daily. Nobody said 5 times a day and these are the times...That would confuse Christians.

Everything I see about Ismaili starts with, "they chose the wrong leader"

I guess this is the difference. In Christianity, it's not about who replaced Jesus as leader, and who should have, nor which disciple did you follow? From what little we have from the disciples chosen to be in the Bible, it all aims in one direction, and that's back to the teaching of Christ. Of course, different groups interpret in different ways, but not on key points, and have somewhat settled into living with each other..

I see the same few differences in Islam, but there's no way blowing each other up over differences is Quranic. It's not Biblical either. 

Bible says "Judge not, that ye be not judged."  It applies to life on earth, (not judgement day), kharma, if you will. It removes the use of slanderous words, (Bâtın’îyye) to describe others.

Exo and eso are so close and so far it's just too general to use as a description. Does the Christian snake handler, (dances with snakes:confused:) who lives an otherwise righteous life according to all he knows, go to heaven when one of those snakes finally bites him?

When the Sufi whirlers finally come to rest and follow the teachings of Muhammad above all others, do they go to hell for being dizzy?

imho, all religions are false. Every time God sends someone to earth to tell us the truth, somebody grabs it and runs. Next thing you know, they have a whole new set of rules, some you follow because they are obvious to a person seeking religion, others to make sure you fit in the same corral, while they make monster churches with your tithe. Ignore the homeless on the way to the big front doors.

We have scriptures to read for ourselves. With prayer we seek enlightenment. My path is not your path until I find the perfect path and so do you...at the same time. Since we are looking for the same path, there's no use fighting over who thinks they found it, nor those who seem to be following, (alongside) the same path, designated by different leaders. If we can at least recognise those travelling in the same direction and join forces, where would this world be?

Or, maybe I say all this because I had a helper who was Ismaili, and I loved him dearly. We agreed on every decision based on the right reason for seven years running, it was incredible. The day the union forced him off our job he had a heart attack on his way home, with 3 people in his car, got them all home safely, then drove to hospital. Every fibre of that man is what God wants us all to be. If I manage Heaven, I know he'll already be there. There were many Ismailis in the shop, very few like him.

It's been a while since I mentioned, but I did a semi-Ramadan with a Muslim co-worker evening shift, so many years ago (28), We worked, we talked. His English was as bad as my French, his Arabic was fine. He invited me to come pray with him, (in the cab of a locomotive), had no idea what would happen. After prayers, (of totally different formats), I said, "do you feel that?" He said "Yes, it is the spirit of Allah come to be with us."  I don't know what language we spoke for a while, but we perfectly knew each other at that time. It was as awesome as it was sobering. Y'know, I don't know what form of Muslim he even was, but in that moment, religion didn't matter any more than language. If I said he was Shia, you would say Ahhh, he enlightened you. If I said he was anything but....crickets...lol.

Unless someone comes out and says, "This is how Ismailis worship the devil" I'm not convinced that one prophet took precedence over another, nor Imam over Imam means latest in the one and only truth ever told to mankind, and interpreted by the one and only ordained to understand the only told truth, while all others...past present, and future will never know (our secret to perfection...), and will die in hell because they did not recognize our religion...makes little sense in my books, nor are they worthy of premature death or slander.

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On 05/12/2016 at 11:45 AM, Hashasheen217 said:

Some Christians and jews have similar praying as well. Matter of a fact, rukuh came from Maryam bint Imran, according to Quran.

:salam:

In fact Allah ordered her to prostrate and bow with those who bow, that means the ruku` was already practice before sayida Maryam (as).

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On ‎12‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 4:47 AM, Son of Placid said:

Every religion has been influenced by previous religions. Many religions saw the good of past religions and decided to use the traditions. Many saw the bad in previous religions and dropped certain traditions. If you are talking about the oldest religion on earth, there's a good chance you will see similarities.

To add confusion to the mix, some traditions overlay past pagan traditions, not because it stemmed from whatever preceded, but to mask it, cover it, get the people to forget past paganism. 

Getting people to pray 5 times a day is not a bad thing. It may have come from an earlier religious practice, but obviously not a bad one. Of course each religion has to make it unique, possibly to the point you cannot identify the original tradition, (without major research), but if it teaches proper morals and principle, what's the problem?

There doesn't seem to be any financial advantage to the leaders by their people praying 5 times a day, As I understand it, some prayers are in congregation, and others are in private.

In Christianity, you will see many public prayers, they also have prayer meetings, but are told explicitly, besides all that, pray in private...daily. Nobody said 5 times a day and these are the times...That would confuse Christians.

Everything I see about Ismaili starts with, "they chose the wrong leader"

I guess this is the difference. In Christianity, it's not about who replaced Jesus as leader, and who should have, nor which disciple did you follow? From what little we have from the disciples chosen to be in the Bible, it all aims in one direction, and that's back to the teaching of Christ. Of course, different groups interpret in different ways, but not on key points, and have somewhat settled into living with each other..

I see the same few differences in Islam, but there's no way blowing each other up over differences is Quranic. It's not Biblical either. 

Bible says "Judge not, that ye be not judged."  It applies to life on earth, (not judgement day), kharma, if you will. It removes the use of slanderous words, (Bâtın’îyye) to describe others.

Exo and eso are so close and so far it's just too general to use as a description. Does the Christian snake handler, (dances with snakes:confused:) who lives an otherwise righteous life according to all he knows, go to heaven when one of those snakes finally bites him?

When the Sufi whirlers finally come to rest and follow the teachings of Muhammad above all others, do they go to hell for being dizzy?

imho, all religions are false. Every time God sends someone to earth to tell us the truth, somebody grabs it and runs. Next thing you know, they have a whole new set of rules, some you follow because they are obvious to a person seeking religion, others to make sure you fit in the same corral, while they make monster churches with your tithe. Ignore the homeless on the way to the big front doors.

We have scriptures to read for ourselves. With prayer we seek enlightenment. My path is not your path until I find the perfect path and so do you...at the same time. Since we are looking for the same path, there's no use fighting over who thinks they found it, nor those who seem to be following, (alongside) the same path, designated by different leaders. If we can at least recognise those travelling in the same direction and join forces, where would this world be?

Or, maybe I say all this because I had a helper who was Ismaili, and I loved him dearly. We agreed on every decision based on the right reason for seven years running, it was incredible. The day the union forced him off our job he had a heart attack on his way home, with 3 people in his car, got them all home safely, then drove to hospital. Every fibre of that man is what God wants us all to be. If I manage Heaven, I know he'll already be there. There were many Ismailis in the shop, very few like him.

It's been a while since I mentioned, but I did a semi-Ramadan with a Muslim co-worker evening shift, so many years ago (28), We worked, we talked. His English was as bad as my French, his Arabic was fine. He invited me to come pray with him, (in the cab of a locomotive), had no idea what would happen. After prayers, (of totally different formats), I said, "do you feel that?" He said "Yes, it is the spirit of Allah come to be with us."  I don't know what language we spoke for a while, but we perfectly knew each other at that time. It was as awesome as it was sobering. Y'know, I don't know what form of Muslim he even was, but in that moment, religion didn't matter any more than language. If I said he was Shia, you would say Ahhh, he enlightened you. If I said he was anything but....crickets...lol.

Unless someone comes out and says, "This is how Ismailis worship the devil" I'm not convinced that one prophet took precedence over another, nor Imam over Imam means latest in the one and only truth ever told to mankind, and interpreted by the one and only ordained to understand the only told truth, while all others...past present, and future will never know (our secret to perfection...), and will die in hell because they did not recognize our religion...makes little sense in my books, nor are they worthy of premature death or slander.

This is just such a great post to read.  I wish I had more time today to offer a quality response, but this was so good.

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18 hours ago, reisiger said:

This is just such a great post to read.  I wish I had more time today to offer a quality response, but this was so good.

Thank you, you are most gracious.

Not everything is about scripture, interpretation, nor ongoing seminars on evangelical values, nor dead end debates based on misinformation. At some point your "religion" has to come out in the open. I don't always give sources for what I write. Hope it helps.

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On 12/7/2016 at 0:32 PM, AleviTurkmenKhorasan said:

Actually there is no five daily prayers in the Qur'an nor Islam. This is because of Ottoman Empire. and Seljuk Empire. 

Alevis are from Imam Musai Kazi,, Caferi Sadik and Imam Riza, but ismailis chose ismaili as their successor

 

OMG for god sake man. People have been praying 5 times a day before Ottoman empire. please give us reference when you talk to us. 

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Bismillahir Rahamanir Rahim….

I have been thinking of writing my journey from Ismaili to Islam for quite some time. Before I start writing anything about my journey towards Islam I want to make it clear to the readers that it is not my intellect that has led to accept the true message of Allah but it is the Kadr of Allah and his Rahma that He guided me to His true deen, otherwise I would have gone astray. As Allah mentions in the Holy Quran clearly

And it is not for a soul to believe except by permission of Allah , and He will place defilement upon those who will not use reason. (Ch.10 V.100)
 
I have tried to confine this article with some bullet-ed points which I find it simpler to organize content of this article.

Imam Only Can Forgive Sins :

Ismailis believe that in order to seek forgiveness from Allah they need to ask forgiveness through Hazar Imam since he prepossess the noor of Allah. They ask for forgiveness after dua everyday in their daily prayers. Who can forgive our sins except Allah ? Please refer to this previous article here on this topic. Hazar Imam is not above Allah so it makes sense for me to worship directly to Him than through Hazar Imam.

On the day of Chandrat/Baitul khyal there are special tables arranged for taking mehmanis for muskil asani and for ease of deceased souls. Mushkil asani dua is 6$ per person. This was the rate in 2007 in Phonix Arizona Jamatkhana and I was the one who payed 12 $ for Muskhil Asani for my alive Parents. I still laugh at this incident when I recall it sometimes that I was seeking Mushkil asani from a man who himself has to go to court to settle his own issues.

Also please refer to below hadith where the prophet of Allah (PBUH) says to Ibn Abbas to seek help from Allah Alone.

Ibn Abbas RA said: One day, I was riding behind the Prophet (sallallaahu ’alayhi wa sallam) when he said, “O boy! I will instruct you in some matters. Be watchful of Allah (Commandments of Allah), He will preserve you. Safeguard His Rights, He will be ever with you. If you beg, beg of Him Alone; and if you need assistance, supplicate to Allah Alone for help. And remember that if all the people gather to benefit you, they will not be able to benefit you except that which Allah had foreordained (for you); and if all of them gather to do harm to you, they will not be able to afflict you with anything other than that which Allah had pre-destined against you. The pens had been lifted and the ink had dried up.” (Tirmidhi)

Absense of Quran and Preachings of Prophet Mumhammad (SAW) in daily proceedings of Jamatkhana:

It is quite common if you ask any Ismaili that is there any preaching of Quran inside the Jamatkhanas….Surely the answer is No. And you may sometimes hear from some Ismailis that we don’t need to read the Quran, our Imam is Talking Quran (Boltu Quran). Astagfirllah. I myself have heard this sentence from an Ismaili.

It is well understood by those who were Ismailis one time and have read the Quran and through Allahs guidance they could easily distinguish between the preaching of Ismailism vs the Word of Allah Subhanwatala. The thing that surprised me most is that when the Hazar Imam even acknowledged in front of the entire world that Quran is the literal word of Allah and there can be no other place to take guidance other than Quran itself, but the Imam himself has failed to convey the same message to his followers.

Read my previous article on what Agakhan has said on Ismailis belief system. Click Here

IMG_247980200308804

May Allah guide each one of us to read his book and make connection with Him through five daily prayers and implement His book in our daily lives. Aameen. Ismaili are only allowed to read books which are approved by Ismaili Institutions and are sold in Jamatkhanas itself. All the books sold in Jamatkhanas or approved by Ismaili Institutions are Imamat centric and lack the true Preachings of Quran and Sunnah of Rasul SAW.

The Dashond Factor:

Islam says you have to pay 2.5 percent of Zakat to the poor and needy person. But Ismailis have a zakat which they call it dashond with an inflated rate of 12.5 percent which you only have to give it in the Jamatkhana. This dashond is collected and goes directly to the Hazar Imam. Imam is the sole owner of dashond. Ismailis have been paying dashond to Agakhan III and Agakhan IV since decades. I would rather give my zakat at the rate of 2.5 percent directly to the person who is poor and needy rather than a billionaire businessman who is self sufficient.

Reported by Abu Hurairah (RA): Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) said, “A dinar you spend in Allah’s way, or to free a slave, or as a charity you give to a needy person, or to support your family, the one yielding the greatest reward is that which you spend on your family.” (Muslim)

Righteousness is not (merely) that you turn your faces to the East and the West; but righteousness is that one believes in Allah and the Last Day and the angels and the Book and the Prophets, and gives wealth, despite (his) love for it, to relatives, and to orphans, the helpless, the wayfarer, and to those who ask, and (spends) in (freeing) slaves and observes the Salah (prayers) and pays Zakah___and (the act of) those who fulfill their covenant when they enter into a covenant, and, of course,those who are patient in hardship and suffering and when in battle! Those are the ones who are truthful, and those are the God-fearing. (Quran Ch. 2-V.177)

Closed Door Policy:

Between 2004- 2006, I was in Kampala when there came an Ismaili doctor from Canada for an educational trip. Jamat was encouraged to listen to him after Jamatkhana proceedings. He was closely associated with Agakhanic Institutions and was also doctor by profession. Before starting the lecture he started the camera recording. The lecture was more of personal hygeine and emphasis by Hazar imam to educate his jamat about it. Since he was also able to answer jamats question on Ismailism he was asked questions related to Dasond and other practices, he immediately turned off the camera recording and started answering question. That moment led me question my belief on why this tariqa of Hazar imam is so scared to tell the public about their matters inside jamatkhanas. My doubt about Ismailism grew and the quest for Allahs deen grew even deeper.

Disconnect of Imam with the Jamat:

There have been only 2 possible forms of communication for the present Imam which I have known. Which are sending Talika (letter) to the Jamat or visiting the jamat once in a decade at least. I understand being an single Imam for few millions of Ismailis around the world, it is impossible for him to be present with every murid. But he is also considered as Hazar and Nazar Imam (Present and who listens). Really ?

The jamat will receive 3-4 talikas in a year mostly dealing with quality of life and education and importance of learning English in todays world. The jamat is in his thoughts and prayers, Thats it. What about Allahs book ? I have never heard a single aayah from Quran quoted in his farman nor any hadith.

Don’t question:

In Ismailism, the Jamati leaders are appointed based on their status in the society, who are well to do financially,who comes to jamatkhana regularly. That is the basis of selecting an Mukhi/Kamadiyas and other jamati leaders who is influential in society and who can handle the jamats issues. But Surprisingly you don’t have to have the ilm (knowledge) of the deen. That is not required at all.

I have seen and Met Mukhi Kamadiyas in couple of countries who are financially well to do but their behavior tells us those are far away from the teachings of Quran and Sunnah. Jamati Leaders running liquor shops and are sitting at the front row as the delegates of Imam to forgive jamats sins.

If you have doubts or questions related to tariqa, you are looked down with a strange look. What kind of Ismaili are you ? You are questioning the Imam ? and so on. You ask the question to the leaders but they will not be able to answer your questions, instead you will be humiliated because that is the best they can do to make you feel bad about it.

I had so many doubts to clear but I did not get a single answer. I was waiting for the Hazar and Nazar (Present and Listening) Imam who could answer my questions, but that did not happen at all.

Too Much emphasis on betterment of this life than the life here after.

Hazar Imam has done a marvelous job on improving the quality of life of the jamat through his continuous emphasis of worldly education. There is nothing wrong with it, but he has done a very little on educating the jamat about the life after death which is why we are here in this duniya. I have listened to many farmans from him regarding education and improving quality of life but have seldom heard in any farman to focus on the hereafter as well.

And the worldly life is not but amusement and diversion but the home of Hereafter is best for those who fear Allah. Will you not then reason? (Sahi Internatinoal Ch.6 V.32)

Hazar Imams Personal Life and Businesses :

What Hazar Imam had claimed to be follower of Quran has neither implemented anything for his Jamat from the Quran, neither he has taken heed for himself.

  • Liquor is haram in Islam, still there are hotels run by Agakhans name sells liquor in it.

Click here to get the proof that hotels run under Agakhans name are selling alcohol.

serena

  • Agakhan’s son Rahim has has gone far beyond and continued the legacy of his grand father and has married to American Fashion Model Kendra Spears.
  • Prince Husain divorsed his wife weeks after the marriage of his brother Rahim.
  • Agakhan’s wife herself filed a divorce case and grabbed 50 million Euros in divorce settlement. (Reason for divorce : Affair with an air hostess.)

The Imam is unable to teach Islamic values to his family, then forget about teaching Islamic values to Ismailis.

  • next-next-527153159

Fashion Show in Jamatkhana in the name of Moderation:

This is one of the biggest problem in Ismailis Jamatkhanas now a days that while coming to Jamatkhana they come as they are attending a wedding party or something. There is no issue with wearing good clothing as Allah has given you so you should wear it but when you cross the limits then it becomes a problem. This has been a problem in every jamatkhana in the world especially with the youth. Women come in skirts and sleveless dresses and lead the dua and read farman in front of entire congregation. Wearing headscarf is a distant dream altogether. I have discussed this issue with few elderly Ismailis and they had the same concerns which I have mentioned here. According to them, Jamatkhana is a place of worship but today’s women come in such a way that  you just wonder “Are they really focusing on prayer wearing such dresses?

May Allah have mercy on the Ummah of Islam. May Allah guide and unite all the brothers and sisters who are gone astray from the straight path of Islam. Ameen.May Allah guide me first and us all to the Straight Path of Islam.Whatever written of truth and benefit is only due to Allah’s Assistance and Guidance, and whatever of error is of me. Allah Alone Knows Best and He is the only Source of Strength

 

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15 hours ago, Ron_Burgundy said:

OMG for god sake man. People have been praying 5 times a day before Ottoman empire. please give us reference when you talk to us. 

İts in Turkish brother,  but again no mention of five times a day, prior to Ottoman there was Seljuklu empire , whom enforced the Zoroastrian beliefs over the Arab world.

Stop questioning people on how they wear and control yourself first and stop gender separation 

There is also no mosque nor ezan during Hz Muhammed time but Cagri Allah hi Akbar 

Alevî mystic Hacı bektaş veli:

Seek and find.

To search / investigate is an open exam.

A path without knowledge will end in darkness.

Be in control of your hands (actions), tongue (speech), and loins (desires).

Whatever you do, do it for the Truth.

There exists in you a “there is” to replace every “there isn't.”

He who walks the Path never tires.

There is no rank or station higher than the Friend's heart.

The one who is wise but doesn't share his wisdom is ignorant.

To the ignorant, abandoning what is no longer needed is death; to the wise it is birth.

There is no repentance of repentance.

Let your heart, your hand, and your table be open to others.

Look for the key to all within your deepest being.

Whatever you seek, look within.

Do not forget your enemy is also a human being.

The beauty of human beings is the beauty of their words.

If the path appears dark, know that the veil is in your own eyes.

All blessings upon the one who overlooks another's shortcomings.

All blessings upon the one who makes a secret of secrets.

The Word (Quran) is Truth.

Do not hurt others, even if you are hurt.

Hand-in-hand, hand in Truth.

One hour of meditation is better than seventy years of piety.

The greatest book to read is the human being.

Be connected to your religion with your heart, not with your knees.

Educate your women, a nation that doesn't educate its women cannot progress.[33]

Prophets and saints are a gift from God to mankind.

Our path is based on the akhlaq of Muhammad and the adab of Ali.

The basis of Islam is akhlaq, the basis of akhlaq is knowledge, the basis of knowledge is intellect.

Whatever the language, religion or color of one might be, a good human being is a good human being.

A man who wastes his time while his heart is full of love for God, is better than a man who reads the Qur'an day and night while his heart is filled with the desire of this world.

For those who have Awareness, a hint is quite enough. For the multitudes of heedless, mere knowledge is useless.

The Quran is a letter from the Loving One to the beloved.

O dervish, know that the Quran is the Word of God, and a book that is revealed to the Prophet to appoint him as a messenger to mankind.[34]

A dervish should spend all his time with Allah, all his breath should be spent telling about Allah.

Doing good in return for evil is essence of being human.

Never desire fame, fame is disaster.

He who cannot clean himself cannot clean others.

First door of those with knowledge is decency.

Haqq (Allah) is more visible than the sun.[35]

Honesty is the door of a friend.

Being a teacher is to give, not to take.

The universe is for man, and man for the universe.

Science illuminates the paths of truth.

We travel in the way of science/knowledge, comprehension and human love.

Let’s be one, be big and energetic.

In the language of friendly conversation, you can’t discriminate between man and woman.

Everything God has created is in order.

There is no need to discriminate between religions. Religions cause disputes among people. In fact, all religions aim to provide peace and brotherhood on earth

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8 hours ago, AleviTurkmenKhorasan said:

İts in Turkish brother,  but again no mention of five times a day, prior to Ottoman there was Seljuklu empire , whom enforced the Zoroastrian beliefs over the Arab world.

Stop questioning people on how they wear and control yourself first and stop gender separation 

There is also no mosque nor ezan during Hz Muhammed time but Cagri Allah hi Akbar 

Alevî mystic Hacı bektaş veli:

Seek and find.

To search / investigate is an open exam.

A path without knowledge will end in darkness.

Be in control of your hands (actions), tongue (speech), and loins (desires).

Whatever you do, do it for the Truth.

There exists in you a “there is” to replace every “there isn't.”

He who walks the Path never tires.

There is no rank or station higher than the Friend's heart.

The one who is wise but doesn't share his wisdom is ignorant.

To the ignorant, abandoning what is no longer needed is death; to the wise it is birth.

There is no repentance of repentance.

Let your heart, your hand, and your table be open to others.

Look for the key to all within your deepest being.

Whatever you seek, look within.

Do not forget your enemy is also a human being.

The beauty of human beings is the beauty of their words.

If the path appears dark, know that the veil is in your own eyes.

All blessings upon the one who overlooks another's shortcomings.

All blessings upon the one who makes a secret of secrets.

The Word (Quran) is Truth.

Do not hurt others, even if you are hurt.

Hand-in-hand, hand in Truth.

One hour of meditation is better than seventy years of piety.

The greatest book to read is the human being.

Be connected to your religion with your heart, not with your knees.

Educate your women, a nation that doesn't educate its women cannot progress.[33]

Prophets and saints are a gift from God to mankind.

Our path is based on the akhlaq of Muhammad and the adab of Ali.

The basis of Islam is akhlaq, the basis of akhlaq is knowledge, the basis of knowledge is intellect.

Whatever the language, religion or color of one might be, a good human being is a good human being.

A man who wastes his time while his heart is full of love for God, is better than a man who reads the Qur'an day and night while his heart is filled with the desire of this world.

For those who have Awareness, a hint is quite enough. For the multitudes of heedless, mere knowledge is useless.

The Quran is a letter from the Loving One to the beloved.

O dervish, know that the Quran is the Word of God, and a book that is revealed to the Prophet to appoint him as a messenger to mankind.[34]

A dervish should spend all his time with Allah, all his breath should be spent telling about Allah.

Doing good in return for evil is essence of being human.

Never desire fame, fame is disaster.

He who cannot clean himself cannot clean others.

First door of those with knowledge is decency.

Haqq (Allah) is more visible than the sun.[35]

Honesty is the door of a friend.

Being a teacher is to give, not to take.

The universe is for man, and man for the universe.

Science illuminates the paths of truth.

We travel in the way of science/knowledge, comprehension and human love.

Let’s be one, be big and energetic.

In the language of friendly conversation, you can’t discriminate between man and woman.

Everything God has created is in order.

There is no need to discriminate between religions. Religions cause disputes among people. In fact, all religions aim to provide peace and brotherhood on earth

Tu just prove that you're talking non sense i quote 

Quote

We read in Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 10, Number 537, Chapter Times of the Prayers:

Narrated Ibn ‘Abbas:
the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) observed in Medina seven (rak’ahs) and eight (rak’ahs), i. e. (combined) the noon (Zuhr) and afternoon (`Asr) prayers (eight rak’ahs) and the dusk (Maghrib) and night (‘Isha’) prayers (seven rak’ahs).

Here you could see 4 prayers its a hadith on combining prayers but to just prove that you don't make any sense i am quoting adn if you include fajar that makes it 5 prayers. Its a basic of islam (one of the five pillars).

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From an outsiders opinion, ahadith seems to be stories meant to confuse, separate, and divide. There is usually an agenda between the lines, and the context is long lost. Black and white become grey and grey becomes the new black. 

It's not new. Christians call them "Commentaries". Different commentaries, of course created different denominations, then spin-offs. 

It's interesting how intense these stories can be, and the astounding amount of research that goes into finding out if they are truth or not, based on the reliability of fallible men through the ages. Based on the assumption they are true, or what one would like to believe, they become part of the next generations problem to sort out.

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18 minutes ago, Son of Placid said:

From an outsiders opinion, ahadith seems to be stories meant to confuse, separate, and divide. There is usually an agenda between the lines, and the context is long lost. Black and white become grey and grey becomes the new black. 

It's not new. Christians call them "Commentaries". Different commentaries, of course created different denominations, then spin-offs. 

It's interesting how intense these stories can be, and the astounding amount of research that goes into finding out if they are truth or not, based on the reliability of fallible men through the ages. Based on the assumption they are true, or what one would like to believe, they become part of the next generations problem to sort out.

This is a very good point.  ahadith (plural of hadith- took me years to connect) are meant as a source of teaching on matters where the Qur'an is silent, or where it simply advises Muslims to follow the teachings of the Prophet (SAWAS).  The issue is that during the years of the first Caliphs (and I don't curse or disparage them- I believe they disobeyed God by disobeying the Prophet (SAWAS), but they did what they did and we have to sort it out) it was forbidden to collect hadith.  So to follow the Christian example out, it's similar to how Biblical scholarship can put the earliest of the Synoptic Gospels within 70 years of Jesus (AS), but not in the time he was known to be teaching and preaching in Galilee.  Like the commentaries that were written by Christians, they become a source of division, and they should not have been.

My problem, and I see this all the time on this site is that many Shi'a will quote a classical Sunni source.  Sadly, I see more ahadith quoted from the "sahih" books of Imam Bukhari and Imam Muslim.  I don't doubt their scholarship, but I question the accuracy of a lot of what is in there.  In case you haven't picked it up, sahih means reliable or trustworthy.  We (Shi'a) don't believe anything except the Qur'an is "sahih."  In the Islamic milieu, Allah (Subhana wa ta'ala) never says that He will protect the Hadith from being altered, but He does promise that the Qur'an will never be altered.  But the problem is that there is so much that becomes important from a jurisprudential perspective that in our debates and discussions, many will appeal to ahadith to prove their point.  I also think that Shi'i make the mistake of using Sunni sources (like Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawood, Tirmidi, etc) to prove their points in the spirit of ijma (or consensus).

The worry I have is that there are hadith in Sunni sources that we do not generally trust as being reliable.  Generally, we do not accept traditions narrated by A'isha, the wife of the Prophet (SAWAS) or by certain companions.  One in particular that is a worry for me (and I don't believe I'm alone) is Abu Hurayrah.  He spent about 2 years with the Prophet (SAWAS) but narrated almost 5400 hadith.  Even more of a worry (and even wikipedia caught this) is the fact that many of his hadith are unique; meaning only one person supposedly saw the  event in question.

So my point is that the Shi'a have a collection of ahadith - Al Kafi. Unlike Sunni sources, the person who compiled it (Shaykh Al Kulayni) admitted that there could be things in there that are not accurate and if it disagreed with Qur'an, throw it out.  The Sunni remind me of the Catholic church in that they've kind of painted themselves into the corner.  They take the Ahadith literature as almost if not actually on par with Qur'an.  That's a problem, because many ahadith are known to have been forged.  Sayf ibn Umar (la'naa on him) for example is known to have forged hundreds if not thousands of hadith to benefit the usurpers of authority after the death of the Prophet (SAWAS).

Anyway, so in this case, sadly, yeah they are definitely being used to divide.  @AleviTurkmenKhorasan is right in the sense that there are many things derived from hadith that are thought to come from the Prophet (SAWAS) himself or the Qur'an itself that are congruent with the 5 pillars of Islam, prayer, etc., in the sense that they are spoken of in the Qur'an and hadith, but not in the sense as we know them today.  The Qur'an speaks about prayer and fasting, charity, etc., but the forms are not explicitly laid out as we know them today.  They are spoken of in more general terms.  Prayer is the most obvious.  The Qur'an commands us to pray, but the form of the prayer is not specifically laid out.  We follow the traditions of the Prophet (SAWAS).  Unfortunately, I believe there are some more literal minded folks (and sadly even from among the Shi'a) who take a more hard-line approach to it.  The fact of the matter is that Islam is not monolithic and it did not arrive in a neat package exactly as we know it today.  It evolved over time.  I do believe that it is incumbent on those of us who claim to believe to learn and understand the laws and injunctions of the deen as clearly as we can and to always seek knowledge honestly.  I don't like seeing Shi'i behaving like Salafis and insisting that their interpretation is the only correct one.  We all have to follow our conscience, and like Martin Luther (roughly) said: to oppose the conscience is neither right nor safe.  Here I stand; God help me, Amen.

Whether we are Christian, Jewish, Muslim, etc., we all have a conscience that God put within us, and if we all honestly follow it, I believe that in spirit, our faiths will be the same even if the outward practices differ, and the reason for that is because we have our own spiritual GPS already embedded in the OS.  I believe if we follow that honestly and seek to honestly do right in the sight of our Lord, then we will be OK.  I trust in His mercy.  I just don't like when it's an argument over legalistic matters.  Like a Sufi Shaykh (Norudeen Durkee) said, many of the scholars are nothing more than pious law clerks.  Jurisprudence (fiqh in Arabic) is important, but like the Catholics who focus on man made traditions, or the Jews who focus on the letter of the Law not the spirit of it, we risk losing our faith in legal matters.  In other words, we make it more complex than it needs to be, and I believe we do so to our peril.

That got lengthy.  Thanks for reading! :)

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12 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

Interesting you mention Sahih.

I find the Sahih international, (Quran) to be the most opinionated of all.

It's a very valid point.  I know from studying other languages that English is deficient in a number of ways.  It is impossible to translate (in my opinion) the true meaning and color of any Semitic language, whether Arabic, Hebrew, Aramaic, or Syriac into an Germanic language.  I have yet to read Qur'an in Arabic, but that is the plan!

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15 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

Interesting you mention Sahih.

I find the Sahih international, (Quran) to be the most opinionated of all.

Really?  I believe that distinction really goes to Muhsin Khan,  the translator put his opinion in brackets and tried to twist and distort the Qur'an to his views. Almost ruined the Qur'an for me when I first started reading. I eventually figured out that Muhsin Khan had a strong Wahhabi/Salafi bias. If you go on Corpus Qur'an, you can easily compare the Arabic with the translation and see the distortion. 

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Yes, the English language. Websters dictionary just added a few more words, Most are a mish mash of popular slang, e.g. brexit. youtuber, etc. Add to that the change in meanings of established words and you have a language so polluted it's worse than Arabic for multiple meanings. 

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On 16/12/2016 at 3:00 AM, AleviTurkmenKhorasan said:

Don't forget Alevis read the Qur'an as Zahir and Batinniye 

We perform everything that is mentioned in the Quran

:salam:

Brother, excuse my curiosity but since you often mention your practices and beliefs, I have those very down to earth questions. I am trying to understand if you only read the batiniya or also perform it.

Do you wash your limbs before prayer ? Do you turn to Kaaba ? Do you fast ? Pay alms ? Go to Hajj ?

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1) we believe you have to be clean inside and out everyday even without pray, as clean comes from Allah 

2) we do not turn to Kaaba but to "DEDE" whom is from Ahlibeyte bloodline

 Whatever you're seeking, seek it in yourself/It's not in Mecca or in Jerusalem or along the hajj.

Kaabe was built by human prophet Abraham, Hz Ali was also born , we respect it but we do not pray towards it, why? Because it's human built and which means idol

Did God not ask all creation to bow down to human? İblis did not but all angels and creations of Allah did. Hence we turn towards the DEDE whom is seyyid from Ahlibeyt

3) of course we fast but during aşure , Ramadan 3 days etc 

And yes we support charity and ggive food but we do not brag about it as it is suppose to be done everyday 

Another point we are not supported by the government in anyway or form

 

We would love to hajj but we cannot why because of social injustices, during past centuries

 

 

    

 

 

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On 18/12/2016 at 4:10 PM, AleviTurkmenKhorasan said:

1) we believe you have to be clean inside and out everyday even without pray, as clean comes from Allah 

2) we do not turn to Kaaba but to "DEDE" whom is from Ahlibeyte bloodline

 Whatever you're seeking, seek it in yourself/It's not in Mecca or in Jerusalem or along the hajj.

Kaabe was built by human prophet Abraham, Hz Ali was also born , we respect it but we do not pray towards it, why? Because it's human built and which means idol

Did God not ask all creation to bow down to human? İblis did not but all angels and creations of Allah did. Hence we turn towards the DEDE whom is seyyid from Ahlibeyt

3) of course we fast but during aşure , Ramadan 3 days etc 

And yes we support charity and ggive food but we do not brag about it as it is suppose to be done everyday 

Another point we are not supported by the government in anyway or form

 

We would love to hajj but we cannot why because of social injustices, during past centuries

 

 

    

 

 

I have to agree with you on most of that. Turning to dede is similar to Taqlid or simply going to Islamic Scholars for help. This is supported in Quran and Hadith. Actually I believe there is a whole chapter in Al Kafi for respect toward Alims.

I think it would help if a dede wrote a book explaining the principles of Alevism so people could learn about it.

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I see recurring points with cleanliness, prayer, fasting, and  giving. Among the true Christians these are just as valid.

Had me confused for a minute because DEDI is the Hebrew transliteration of Jehovah, (commonly referred to as Allah in Arab countries).

Not sure the inner workings of a Mosque.  There is a church up the road from me. Actually, the church sits up front and behind it is the "parsonage". It's the house built for the Parson. He is the leader of that church.  Of course in Canada he has not judicial authority, but is always there for guidance. Not sure he qualifies as a DEDE, or a Baba..

 

Edited by Son of Placid
fat fingers

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On 18/12/2016 at 10:10 PM, AleviTurkmenKhorasan said:

1) we believe you have to be clean inside and out everyday even without pray, as clean comes from Allah 

2) we do not turn to Kaaba but to "DEDE" whom is from Ahlibeyte bloodline

 Whatever you're seeking, seek it in yourself/It's not in Mecca or in Jerusalem or along the hajj.

Kaabe was built by human prophet Abraham, Hz Ali was also born , we respect it but we do not pray towards it, why? Because it's human built and which means idol

Did God not ask all creation to bow down to human? İblis did not but all angels and creations of Allah did. Hence we turn towards the DEDE whom is seyyid from Ahlibeyt

3) of course we fast but during aşure , Ramadan 3 days etc 

And yes we support charity and ggive food but we do not brag about it as it is suppose to be done everyday 

Another point we are not supported by the government in anyway or form

 

We would love to hajj but we cannot why because of social injustices, during past centuries

 

 

    

 

 

Thanks for your reply. 

I found the 2) not convincing since man, just like Kaaba is man made. Without the act of procreation one can not give birth.

Unlike Adam (as) who was made by Allah (swt) Himself.

So bowing to a human being is not logical, not to mention a Dede is not an infaillible or that not even infaillibles asked anyone to bow or prostrate towards them.

This really seems to be a distorsion of religion. And by knowing the importance of prostration, I would not take it lightly.

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Actually, Allah has created man, kaabe on the other hand is built by man, just like idol

Did Hz Ali pray towards the kaabe?

Alevis have cem, semah and pray 

İslam dininde adına salat denilen bir ibadet biçimi vardır. Bu ibadetin unsurları; kıyam yani ayakta durmak, rüku yani öne doğru eğilmek, secde yani yere kapanmak, ka’de yani oturmak, 

1) stand

2) lean forward 

3) prostrate yourself 

 

 

 

 

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I'm not Alevi :) But, qibla is Allah's friend and his pure progeny, Ibrahim a.s. and his pure progeny a.s. They are Allah's Beyt, Ehl-ul-Beyt. Any of them is insan-ul-kamil (a perfect human), they don't mix with jinn.

This is why h. Muhammed Mustafa sawa was in front of all Muslims in es-salat, turned towards Allah swt and all behind him were turned towards Muhammed Mustafa sawa. There's no saff in front of others, it's only one man (or woman). Don't you see?

If there's no Ibrahim's a.s. progeny turned towards Him, so that we can turned towards them... the only option is to turn ourselves towards Him alone. And whereever we turn our faces, we turned them towards Him.

Allah swt knows best.

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On 9/18/2016 at 0:28 AM, Son of Placid said:

ismaili is the most popular sect in Calgary. I worked with many of them and find them for the most part to be very nice people, with high morals, and flexible enough in their prayer times not to cause their employer any grief. 

What is it they believe that is so wrong?

Because it is very convenient religion. No hard and fast rules, you can Gamble and or drink sell spirits..No dress code in Jamat khanas etc. which is totally against Islam...Sorry, I am a Ismaili..Still trying to figure out what the truth is. Confused as anything..

 

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On 9/18/2016 at 12:28 AM, Son of Placid said:

ismaili is the most popular sect in Calgary. I worked with many of them and find them for the most part to be very nice people, with high morals, and flexible enough in their prayer times not to cause their employer any grief. 

What is it they believe that is so wrong?

Because it is very convenient religion. No hard and fast rules, you can Gamble and or drink sell spirits..No dress code in Jamat khanas etc. which is totally against Islam...Sorry, I am a Ismaili..Still trying to figure out what the truth is. Confused as anything..

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