How to prove ismaili belief is false

[Qasim_Husayn]

Can someone provide me with neutral sources for the immamt of musa khadim

[Salati AbdulQadir]

The hadith of the "twelve sucessors or twelve Imams" which is documented in both Sunni and Shia sources is a very good reference to fault the belief of Ismaili. According to this tradition, the numbers of successors/Imams immediately after the Prophet (s.a.w.a) are twelve, no more or less. And Imam Musa Kadhim was the  7th Imam and not the last.

 

[Ali al-Abdullah]

I believe this should be moved into "research into other sects".

45 minutes ago, Salati AbdulQadir said:

was the  7th Imam and not the last.

Are you talking about the Waqifites?

[Qasim_Husayn]

The scholars of sunni hadith all say it's about the sunni caliphs.There are also many versions of the same hadith with different numbers
And hadith isn't history that's for one and Aga khans lineage is documented by multiple sources (not just hadith) but historical sources

How would you refute this 

[Son of Placid]

ismaili is the most popular sect in Calgary. I worked with many of them and find them for the most part to be very nice people, with high morals, and flexible enough in their prayer times not to cause their employer any grief. 

What is it they believe that is so wrong?

[AleviTurkmenKhorasan]

They are Bâtın’îyye like alevis

[Son of Placid]

On 9/30/2016 at 6:33 AM, AleviTurkmenKhorasan said:

They are Bâtın’îyye like alevis

Not a clue what that means.

 

[Faruk]

On ‎18‎-‎9‎-‎2016 at 6:28 AM, Son of Placid said:

ismaili is the most popular sect in Calgary. I worked with many of them and find them for the most part to be very nice people, with high morals, and flexible enough in their prayer times not to cause their employer any grief. 

What is it they believe that is so wrong?

I believe the tittle is not really respectful. We are all looking for truth regardless of creed or religion.

Besides that we must not forget they are Shia muslims as well.

Edited October 1, 2016 by Faruk

[Russel Ahmed]

On 9/18/2016 at 0:28 AM, Son of Placid said:

ismaili is the most popular sect in Calgary. I worked with many of them and find them for the most part to be very nice people, with high morals, and flexible enough in their prayer times not to cause their employer any grief. 

What is it they believe that is so wrong?

Most shia scholars I have heard , do not consider them as Muslims. 

[reisiger]

On ‎10‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 1:01 PM, Son of Placid said:

Not a clue what that means.

 

Sorry no one answered this- in Islam, there are two concepts that are applied when reading scripture: the batin (or esoteric) and the zahir (or exoteric).  So what my brother was saying was that the Isma'ilis are an exoteric school similar to the Alevis. 

I don't know much about either except that I happened to know what batiniyye meant. 

[realizm]

On 10/10/2016 at 1:47 AM, Russel Ahmed said:

Most shia scholars I have heard , do not consider them as Muslims. 

Is it what you heard, or did you hear scholars saying Ismailis were not muslims?

[Son of Placid]

18 hours ago, realizm said:

Is it what you heard, or did you hear scholars saying Ismailis were not muslims?

There must be some point where Ismailis crossed the line, took up a heresay, left a tradition, refuted a doctrine, something.

[reisiger]

On ‎10‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 9:41 AM, reisiger said:

Sorry no one answered this- in Islam, there are two concepts that are applied when reading scripture: the batin (or esoteric) and the zahir (or exoteric).  So what my brother was saying was that the Isma'ilis are an exoteric school similar to the Alevis. 

I don't know much about either except that I happened to know what batiniyye meant. 

My bad- I meant to say the Isma'ilis are an ESOTERIC not exoteric.  For Twelver Shi'i, there is an esoteric concept called Irfan. 

[Hashasheen217]

Here are seven proofs from the ismailis, detailed. They can be refuted, there are some holes but i am no scholar.

https://ismailignosis.com/2014/10/02/who-succeeded-imam-jafar-al-sadiq-seven-proofs-for-the-imamat-of-imam-ismail-ibn-jafar/

Summary of the Seven Proofs

Below is a summary of the proofs. Please read beyond for the evidence for each, or click on the proof number, to jump directly to a specific proof.

Taken individually or collectively, these Seven Proofs demonstrate that the legitimate successor and true Imam after the Imam Ja‘far al-Sadiq is Mawlānā Ismā‘īl ibn Ja‘far and that the Present and Living Imam of all Shi‘i Muslims must be the direct lineal descendant of Isma‘il ibn Ja‘far. 

Proof #1: Imām Ja‘far designated Mawlānā Ismā‘īl as the next Imam by the rule of nass as per Twelver, Ismaili, Sunni and academic sources.

Proof #2: The only way to deny the nass of Mawlānā Isma‘il is through contradictory hadithspresented in later Twelver hadith books.

Proof #3: Isma‘il’s death before Imam Ja‘far is not confirmed and may have been staged to protect him — as he was reportedly seen by eyewitnesses after his alleged death.

Proof #4: Even if Isma‘il had died before his father, the Imamat continued in Isma‘il’s son, Muhammad ibn Isma‘il, whom Isma‘il had appointed as his own successor.

Proof #5: Earliest Shi‘i hadiths lack the mention of Twelve Imams but instead predict exactly the first eighteen Imams in the Isma‘ili lineage of Imamat.

Proof #6: With the exception of the Nizari Ismaili Imamat, all other Shi‘i Imamat lineages have hidden Imams. This contradicts the Qur’anic definition of Imamat which requires the Imam always be present and manifest (mubin) in the world.

Proof #7: Imam Shah Karim al-Husayni Aga Khan IV is the forty-ninth hereditary Imam of Shi‘i Islam in direct, documented, lineal descent from Mawlana Isma‘il ibn Ja‘far al-Sadiq. As the only present (hadir), manifest (mubin) and living (mawjud) hereditary Imam, with a documented and validated lineage, Imam Shah Karim al-Husayni’s very existence is itself confirmation of his Imamat and that of his ancestors.

[Son of Placid]

I guess this is where our faiths differ in ways. Jesus didn't appoint a successor, thus Christians are not divided on who to follow, 

I was expecting something more along the lines of alternate beliefs, contradicting doctrines, unauthorized practices. Something they do that Shia consider shirk, or haram.

[Hashasheen217]

12 minutes ago, Son of Placid said:

I guess this is where our faiths differ in ways. Jesus didn't appoint a successor, thus Christians are not divided on who to follow, 

I was expecting something more along the lines of alternate beliefs, contradicting doctrines, unauthorized practices. Something they do that Shia consider shirk, or haram.

If you research deeper into ismailis, you will find things of stranger nature.

[Son of Placid]

51 minutes ago, Hashasheen217 said:

If you research deeper into ismailis, you will find things of stranger nature.

I was kind of hoping someone here knew the differences. 

[Hashasheen217]

7 minutes ago, Son of Placid said:

I was kind of hoping someone here knew the differences. 

Well here is a lecture by Imam Muhammad Al Asi on the ismailis:

 

 

[AleviTurkmenKhorasan]

Ismailis are actually more related to us Alevis, as a fellow member mentioned, we read the Qur'an as Zahir and Batinni 

Did you know sunni islam is zoroastrain? Even Hanefi sunni was persian, hence the Zoroastrian practice.

Don't forget Shah Ismail also converted many into 12er and now the converts are calling Alevis and Ismailis kaffir even though they are seyyid and have been taught about the secrets of the universe 

[Hashasheen217]

10 hours ago, AleviTurkmenKhorasan said:

Ismailis are actually more related to us Alevis, as a fellow member mentioned, we read the Qur'an as Zahir and Batinni 

Did you know sunni islam is zoroastrain? Even Hanefi sunni was persian, hence the Zoroastrian practice.

Don't forget Shah Ismail also converted many into 12er and now the converts are calling Alevis and Ismailis kaffir even though they are seyyid and have been taught about the secrets of the universe 

How is Sunni Islam Zoroastrian, explain?

Who is Shah Ismail, ishe ismaili or what?

[Son of Placid]

17 hours ago, AleviTurkmenKhorasan said:

Ismailis are actually more related to us Alevis, as a fellow member mentioned, we read the Qur'an as Zahir and Batinni 

Did you know sunni islam is zoroastrain? Even Hanefi sunni was persian, hence the Zoroastrian practice.

Don't forget Shah Ismail also converted many into 12er and now the converts are calling Alevis and Ismailis kaffir even though they are seyyid and have been taught about the secrets of the universe 

Kafir seems to get thrown around a lot before it even leaves the Islamic realm.I asked a fellow here once before about differences, all I knew was that he was different. This was his reply.

Quote

 

I will make it easy for you. Sunnis take Islam from companions and Shia from family of Prophet. Then came four Sunni Imams who taught Laws of Islam. Those who follow them are called Muqalid and wahabi ghair muqalid,they only follow Quran and Hadith.I am a Hanfi Muqulid and against the wahabis.In India,Hanfis were further divided into deobandis(shia haters)and barelvis(more tolerant and tomb worshippers of saints).

I am a deobandi but shia consider them as a wahabi and hate them.Deobandi hate barelvis. Both wahabi and deobandis hate shia and consider them kafirs. Barelvis love shias but hate wahabis and deobandis,Sound confusing right?And now you know why Muslims will blow each other up.,

I wish I could curse Muslims like you do Christians and not get banned from the shiachat.One thing Islam must learn from Christianity, how to tolerate criticism and coexist with others.

 

 

This did not make it easy on me. Same Quran, right? Same Pillars?

* I didn't curse anyone, just put a put a fellow in his place.

Nothing serious, unless you're really sensitive.

Edited December 2, 2016 by Son of Placid

[AleviTurkmenKhorasan]

12 hours ago, Hashasheen217 said:

How is Sunni Islam Zoroastrian, explain?

Who is Shah Ismail, ishe ismaili or what?

Well their beliefs are similar, I have to explain it in Turkish though.

Did you know Hanefi was Persian?

Shah Ismail was the great leader of Aq Koyunlar, seyyid and Turkmen. 

He was the leader of iran/Azerbaijan.

Here is a Turkish professor explaining IrIr and how "namaz"  comes from Zoroastrian

I will try to translate later 

[realizm]

8 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

Kafir seems to get thrown around a lot before it even leaves the Islamic realm.I asked a fellow here once before about differences, all I knew was that he was different. This was his reply.

 

This did not make it easy on me. Same Quran, right? Same Pillars?

* I didn't curse anyone, just put a put a fellow in his place.

Nothing serious, unless you're really sensitive.

That reply was a joke, seriously. The guy is a shia hating deobandi but wishes to curse muslims while learning tolerance from christians.

That does not make any sense.

[AleviTurkmenKhorasan]

Five daily prayers are Zoroastrian and not in the Qur'an, they have similar praying posture too 

It's because of the Ottomans too and Persians.

 

[Son of Placid]

23 hours ago, realizm said:

That reply was a joke, seriously. The guy is a shia hating deobandi but wishes to curse muslims while learning tolerance from christians.

That does not make any sense.

I didn't say it made sense. Certainly not to me. I don't know half the groups he's talking about, but I don't think he meant it as a joke. Matter of fact, nothing he ever said was a joke. He was a troubled Deobandi because he didn't hate anybody as much as he was supposed to. Somebody with attitude finally made him pop and he got banned. 

[realizm]

1 hour ago, Son of Placid said:

I didn't say it made sense. Certainly not to me. I don't know half the groups he's talking about, but I don't think he meant it as a joke. Matter of fact, nothing he ever said was a joke. He was a troubled Deobandi because he didn't hate anybody as much as he was supposed to. Somebody with attitude finally made him pop and he got banned. 

It seems he was not so peaceful then

[Hashasheen217]

On 12/3/2016 at 7:15 PM, AleviTurkmenKhorasan said:

Five daily prayers are Zoroastrian and not in the Qur'an, they have similar praying posture too 

It's because of the Ottomans too and Persians.

 

Some Christians and jews have similar praying as well. Matter of a fact, rukuh came from Maryam bint Imran, according to Quran.

[Son of Placid]

On 12/4/2016 at 0:24 AM, realizm said:

It seems he was not so peaceful then

I have a knack for bringing out the best in people .

Sometimes, when the arms are raised the heart is exposed. 

[Ali al-Abdullah]

Five daily prayers is 100% Islamic. Don't listen to that guy. He has no  proof. Also Ismailism is a dead sect, How can Ismail be the Imam when he died before Imam Ja´far as-Sadiq (as)?!

[AleviTurkmenKhorasan]

On 06/12/2016 at 2:35 PM, Ali al-Abdullah said:

Five daily prayers is 100% Islamic. Don't listen to that guy. He has no  proof. Also Ismailism is a dead sect, How can Ismail be the Imam when he died before Imam Ja´far as-Sadiq (as)?!

Actually there is no five daily prayers in the Qur'an nor Islam. This is because of Ottoman Empire. and Seljuk Empire. 

Alevis are from Imam Musai Kazi,, Caferi Sadik and Imam Riza, but ismailis chose ismaili as their successor

 

Edited December 7, 2016 by AleviTurkmenKhorasan
word

[reisiger]

3 hours ago, AleviTurkmenKhorasan said:

Actually there is no five daily prayers in the Qur'an nor Islam. This is because of Ottoman Empire. and Seljuk Empire. 

Alevis are from Imam Musai Kazi,, Caferi Sadik and Imam Riza, but ismailis chose ismaili as their successor

 

Salaam alaikum,

I definitely agree on the first point about the 5 daily prayers; the Holy Qur'an only says that we have to pray, but it doesn't go further into the forms of the prayer.  All the fiqh-based arguments about arms up or down; those are all minutiae.  Obviously jurisprudence matters, but I've come to see a lot of what we know as the dominant tone in Islam as being hyper focused on jurisprudence.  It's like we aspire to be pious law clerks.  I don't know if my thinking makes any sense.  I need to ask- where might I find non biased material about the Alevi school?  I want to learn as much about Islam as I can, and sadly, I am not as well educated as I need to be about this Deen and my brothers and sisters who follow it, whatever school they may follow.

[AleviTurkmenKhorasan]

4 hours ago, reisiger said:

Salaam alaikum,

I definitely agree on the first point about the 5 daily prayers; the Holy Qur'an only says that we have to pray, but it doesn't go further into the forms of the prayer.  All the fiqh-based arguments about arms up or down; those are all minutiae.  Obviously jurisprudence matters, but I've come to see a lot of what we know as the dominant tone in Islam as being hyper focused on jurisprudence.  It's like we aspire to be pious law clerks.  I don't know if my thinking makes any sense.  I need to ask- where might I find non biased material about the Alevi school?  I want to learn as much about Islam as I can, and sadly, I am not as well educated as I need to be about this Deen and my brothers and sisters who follow it, whatever school they may follow.

As-salamu alaykum brother, hmm its difficult as Alevis don't really have the budget to translate etc state does not recognise nor supports Alevis, all books have been burned during ottoman period. 

Which is why we have "deyis" to not forget the truth and carry it along. 

Anyways best to avoid alevi german federations, and they don't believe in Allah nor Hz Ali or Hz Muhammed.

Look for "dede" seyyid people whom teach or Haci Bektas veli and Ahmet Yesevi, btw Naksibende is not Ahmet Yesevi nor Yesevilik 

An Analysis of ALEVI communities position in Turkey.

http://www.cemvakfi.org.tr/dogan-bermek/alevilik-ingilizce/

here is a little more info

http://whc.unesco.org/en/tentativelists/5735/

 

 

Edited December 8, 2016 by AleviTurkmenKhorasan

[Son of Placid]

I understood from a Sunni that Muhammad had a day with God and negotiated prayers down to 5, from 500.

 

[reisiger]

12 hours ago, AleviTurkmenKhorasan said:

As-salamu alaykum brother, hmm its difficult as Alevis don't really have the budget to translate etc state does not recognise nor supports Alevis, all books have been burned during ottoman period. 

Which is why we have "deyis" to not forget the truth and carry it along. 

Anyways best to avoid alevi german federations, and they don't believe in Allah nor Hz Ali or Hz Muhammed.

Look for "dede" seyyid people whom teach or Haci Bektas veli and Ahmet Yesevi, btw Naksibende is not Ahmet Yesevi nor Yesevilik 

An Analysis of ALEVI communities position in Turkey.

http://www.cemvakfi.org.tr/dogan-bermek/alevilik-ingilizce/

here is a little more info

http://whc.unesco.org/en/tentativelists/5735/

 

 

Jazaak Allah Khair, brother!  I will definitely look into it more deeply. One thing that I've always hated is accusations of bidah or kufr, etc.. I will definitely look further into it. It's a sad thing that the state doesn't help, especially since their predecessors burnt the books.  Sounds very much like a Pir or a da'i - someone to remember and to teach.

It's always when the Imams are ignored and the kings come into power that it all goes down hill. :/

thanks again!

[Ali al-Abdullah]

16 hours ago, reisiger said:

Salaam alaikum,

I definitely agree on the first point about the 5 daily prayers; the Holy Qur'an only says that we have to pray, but it doesn't go further into the forms of the prayer.  All the fiqh-based arguments about arms up or down; those are all minutiae.  Obviously jurisprudence matters, but I've come to see a lot of what we know as the dominant tone in Islam as being hyper focused on jurisprudence.  It's like we aspire to be pious law clerks.  I don't know if my thinking makes any sense.  I need to ask- where might I find non biased material about the Alevi school?  I want to learn as much about Islam as I can, and sadly, I am not as well educated as I need to be about this Deen and my brothers and sisters who follow it, whatever school they may follow.

Yes, five daily prayers is definitely Islamic. You can be a non muslim alevi kafir, but don't try to lie about Islam.