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ShiaMan14

Perceptions of Caliph Uthman

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Brother @Megatron

I think we are derailing the "Four Daughters" thread so starting this new topic:

On 9/10/2016 at 7:49 PM, Megatron said:

Hi.

It is healthy that you think he was trustworthy, but in addition you've referred to him as a "nobody", and claimed if he hadn't exited Islam still would've blossomed. Since then, I decided to challenge your perception of Uthman, and prove that he was indeed much better than that. The main discussion of this thread regarding the other daughters is all connected together. Uthman was a very special individual not just on his own right, and a beloved companion/son-in law of the Prophet (SAW) x2.

It distinguishes him because he had excelled in those qualifies collectively more than anyone else hence why the Prophet (SAW) admired, respected and loved him very much as per the plethora of authentic narrations.

I'm not rejecting the questions you're bringing forward, but it's the type of questions you're posing that would suggest that you already have this preconceived view-point of Uthman, and no Hadith no matter how explicit the praise even if it's coming from the Prophet (SAW) will change that. It's our belief by unanimous consensus the reason there was a massive uproar at Hudabiiyah wasn't just because a random or nobody spokesman/ambassador was allegedly killed, but it was quality blood that was spilled. This carries more weight considering ibn Umar narrates the Hadith since he was there in defense/honour of Uthman. Last time I checked he wasn't A-policital his entire life, and wasn't anti/pro Banu Ummayah. If you genuinely believe a certain narration is infested with Banu Ummayah germs then you need to explain, and justify how so academically. Binning it because it's not compatible with your trained-image of Uthman is unconditional bias. That's not a very pragmatic approach.

To clarify he was not at Badr because he was instructed by the Prophet (SAW) to carry for his daughter, and he attended ever other expedition after that. Yes, at Uhud he fled like the others did, but Allah forgave them, so that can't be used as a critique when Allah has pardoned them, and with the added fact he's been promised Jannah by the Prophet (SAW) himself. His contributions, and achievements during his life post/after the Prophet's (SAW) life outweighs that one blemish, and is now awaiting to enter Jannah, Insh'Allah.

Finally, there is an attachment provided by the OP with countless sources from your books proving the Prophet (SAW) had more than 1 daughter namely, Ruqayah, Umm Khulthum, and Zainab. You haven't commented on that, and as I said there are threads already on this forum where your fellow users are in disagreement among themselves whether Fatima was the only child or not. I also provided you with links where you can find reliable secondary sources that reference they were his daughters, and their names. If you want the original sources then go here:

https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2010/10/11/how-many-daughters-did-prophetsaw-had/

Scroll down, and you'll find them under "Proof from Sunni sources".

There are no praises for any of the daughters from our literature except for Zainab to my knowledge:

http://hadithanswers.com/most-beloved-daughter-of-rasulullah-sallallahualayhi-wasallam/

So, as far as the daughters are concerned the onus is on you to look this if you're really sincere to seek the truth. I'm convinced that you are.

The Seerah of our Prophet (SAW) should encompass every aspect of his life this includes his disciples, and not just his family. If your scholars have mentioned the companion's sacrifices, and contribution to the establishment of Islam then I'd be interested to check it out. Please share.

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With regards to the other daughters of the Prophet (pbuh and his family ) I like to point out few things:
1- who were the 5 under the cloak ? Hazrat Fatima (sa) was one of them, where were the other daughters ? 
2- mubahela where were the other daughters ? 
3- where were the other daughters when it came to claiming fadak? No other daughter claimed it. Quick note here Hazrat Fatima didn't inherit fadak it was given to her when the Prophet ( pbuh and his family ) was alive! It was to cripple Imam Ali (as ) economically, like how the U.S imposes economic sanction on certain countries to cripple them. 
4- why do we revere Hazrat Fatima (sa) so much ? Well even the Sunnis have to admit from who's line the awaited saviour will raise ??? The 3 caliphs ?? NO! Muawiyah?? Yazid?? NO! You know what they did to Imam Hassan (as) lineage at Karbala??? ...... 
 Sunnis say Imam Hassan (as) we the Shia say Imam Hussein (as) but point being its from Hazrat Fatima (as) and who's their grandmother??? Hazrat Khadijah (sa) !!! These  are SOME of the reasons why we revere them! 


Sayed Ammar has a video explaining this eloquently I might say. 

 The messenger of Allah (saw) said: “O People, I leave amongst you two things which if you follow, you will never go astray. They are the Book of Allah and my Ahl al-Bayt (family). He also said: The messenger of my God is about to come to me and I shall answer. I am leaving with you the two weighty things: The first is the Book of Allah, in which you find guidance and enlightenment, and the people of my household. I remind you, by Allah, of the people of my household...I remind you by Allah of the people of my household.
"Sahih, Muslim, Chapter on the Virtues of Imam ‘Ali (as), vol 5 p 122, Sahih, al Tirmdhi, vol 5 p 328, Mustadrak, al Hakim, vol 3 p 148 Musnad, Ahmed Hanbal, vol 3 p 17

The Sunni have changes this to sunna but it's in their own books it's Quran and Ahlulbayt. No wrong can come to the Quran and if something can't be separated from it no wrong can come to it either so that's a sign for people who contemplate! 

I don't know how could they look up to the 2nd caliph knowing about the calamity of Thursday for example ! Where the 2nd caliph raises his voice above the Prophet (pbuh and his family ) and not allowing him to write down something that would have saved this umma!! But the 2nd caliph didn't pervent the 1st caliph from writing it down ? Why?? Cause he knew what he was gonna write and that he would be appointed ! But he knew what the prophet (pbuh and his family ) was gonna right and that was the Imamat of Ali (as) 


Food for thought : 

"Loving ‘Ali is believing, and hating him is hypocrisy."3 Sahih, Muslim, vol 1 p 61 

"You are to me as Aaron was to Moses, but there will be no prophet after me.".
 Sahih, Bukhari, vol 2 p 305Sahih, Muslim, vol 2 p 356, Mustadrak, al Hakim, vol 3 p 109
You are from me, and I am from you."
 Sahih, Bukhari, vol 1 p 76, Sahih, Tirmidhi, vol 5 p 300 Sunan, Ibn Majah, vol 1 p 44
Loving ‘Ali is believing, and hating him is hypocrisy."
 Sahih, Muslim, vol 1 p 61; Sunan, al Nasai, vol 6 p 117; Sahih, al Tirmidhi, vol 8 p 306"
I am the city of knowledge, and ‘Ali is its gate.
"Sahih, Tirmidhi, vol 5 p 201; Mustadrak, al Hakim, vol 3 p 126
"‘Ali is the master of all the believers after me." 

Musnad, Ahmed Hanbal, vol 5 p 25; Mustadrak, Hakim, vol 3 p 134;Sahih, al Tirmidhi, vol 5 p 296

"Whoever accepted me as his master, then he should also accept ‘Ali as his master. O Allah be friendly with his friends, and be enemy to his enemy." 

Sahih, Muslim, vol 2 p 362; Mustadrak, Hakim, vol 3 p 109; Musnad, Ahmed Hanbal, vol 4 p 281


May Allah Bless you all

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On 9/10/2016 at 7:49 PM, Megatron said:

Hi.

It is healthy that you think he was trustworthy, but in addition you've referred to him as a "nobody", and claimed if he hadn't exited Islam still would've blossomed. Since then, I decided to challenge your perception of Uthman, and prove that he was indeed much better than that. The main discussion of this thread regarding the other daughters is all connected together. Uthman was a very special individual not just on his own right, and a beloved companion/son-in law of the Prophet (SAW) x2.

It distinguishes him because he had excelled in those qualifies collectively more than anyone else hence why the Prophet (SAW) admired, respected and loved him very much as per the plethora of authentic narrations.

I'm not rejecting the questions you're bringing forward, but it's the type of questions you're posing that would suggest that you already have this preconceived view-point of Uthman, and no Hadith no matter how explicit the praise even if it's coming from the Prophet (SAW) will change that. It's our belief by unanimous consensus the reason there was a massive uproar at Hudabiiyah wasn't just because a random or nobody spokesman/ambassador was allegedly killed, but it was quality blood that was spilled. This carries more weight considering ibn Umar narrates the Hadith since he was there in defense/honour of Uthman. Last time I checked he wasn't A-policital his entire life, and wasn't anti/pro Banu Ummayah. If you genuinely believe a certain narration is infested with Banu Ummayah germs then you need to explain, and justify how so academically. Binning it because it's not compatible with your trained-image of Uthman is unconditional bias. That's not a very pragmatic approach.

Dear brother,

Please note that this is not meant to offend you in any way. I understand your reverence for Caliph Uthman and my intention is not to upset you. At the same time, it is important we have these discussions in the interest of true knowledge and understanding.

If Caliph Uthman was so beloved to the Prophet, why was he not part of Mubahila as his nafs?
Why didnt the Prophet take him as his brother instead of Ali?
Why is Caliph Uthman not consider as part of the AhlulBayt?
Why are the children of Caliph Uthman not part of Mubahila and tatheer?
 

I think these are poignant and pragmatic questions.

 

On 9/10/2016 at 7:49 PM, Megatron said:

To clarify he was not at Badr because he was instructed by the Prophet (SAW) to carry for his daughter, and he attended ever other expedition after that. Yes, at Uhud he fled like the others did, but Allah forgave them, so that can't be used as a critique when Allah has pardoned them, and with the added fact he's been promised Jannah by the Prophet (SAW) himself. His contributions, and achievements during his life post/after the Prophet's (SAW) life outweighs that one blemish, and is now awaiting to enter Jannah, Insh'Allah.

Can you name 1 battle where the presence of Caliph Uthman made a difference?

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To add to the points of the brother above; not only within the lifetime of the Prophet, but even after, Caliph Uthman was likely the weakest of the first three khulafaha. Caliphs Abu Bakr and Umar at least held the umma (as in the state) together. Uthman's indecisiveness and nepotism directly led to the first civil wars of Islam and the umma never recovered from them. It's a historical fact that while the nation was being ripped apart by rebellious sentiments, he refused to leave his house (not even getting up from the Qur'an while his household was attacked and his wife's fingers cut off), let alone rule the country. And what I don't understand is why so many people view this meekness as a virtue. How can you expect a person like this to govern an empire?

He's actually the only one out of the first three caliphs that I've seen Sunni books say "may have lacked the qualities of a good ruler."

To quote Caliph Umar himself:

فقلت: فعثمان؟ قال: فوالله لو فعلت لجعل بني أبي معيط على رقاب الناس يعملون فيهم بمعصية الله والله لو فعلت لفعل ولو فعل لفعلوه فوثب الناس عليه فقتلوه

“If I make him (Uthman) the Khalifa he shall thrust the Bani Abi Muit (a branch of the Banu Umayyah) to rule over the people, and they shall oppress the people and disobey Allah. The result will be that the people will rise against him and kill him”.

[Al-Istiab, Volume 3 page 1119; Kanz al-Umal, Volume 5 page 738 Tradition 14262; Ansab al-Ashraf, Volume 5 page 16; Tamhid al-Awael, page 510; Izalatul Khifa, Volume 1 page 618]

Edited by Shaykh Patience101

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7 hours ago, Ya_isa (as) said:

With regards to the other daughters of the Prophet (pbuh and his family ) I like to point out few things:

Bismillah.

Salam Alaykum.

Prophet Mohammad s.a.w. had more than one daughter?? Can you please name them?? Please don't tell me he had step daughters, they don't count, I am talking about from his bloodline.

Thanks brother.

Wasalam.

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2 hours ago, Unity4Imam said:

Bismillah.

Salam Alaykum.

Prophet Mohammad s.a.w. had more than one daughter?? Can you please name them?? Please don't tell me he had step daughters, they don't count, I am talking about from his bloodline.

Thanks brother.

Wasalam.

Salam, I don't agree that he did, that's what I'm trying to point out brother. 

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2 hours ago, Shaykh Patience101 said:

To quote Caliph Umar himself:

The 2nd caliph has done a lot of innovations within the religion. Changing the adhan, ruling agains the Quran even by banning tayammum! About divorce. And much much more. The more one studies these issues about each of the caliphs you will see ( if you're following them ) that you start making excuses for them and defend them in things which they themselves wouldn't do!!! 

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23 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Dear brother,

Please note that this is not meant to offend you in any way. I understand your reverence for Caliph Uthman and my intention is not to upset you. At the same time, it is important we have these discussions in the interest of true knowledge and understanding.

If Caliph Uthman was so beloved to the Prophet, why was he not part of Mubahila as his nafs?
Why didnt the Prophet take him as his brother instead of Ali?
Why is Caliph Uthman not consider as part of the AhlulBayt?
Why are the children of Caliph Uthman not part of Mubahila and tatheer?
 

I think these are poignant and pragmatic questions.

 

Can you name 1 battle where the presence of Caliph Uthman made a difference?

Hi.

Respected brother, I appreciate you taking my feelings into consideration, but I am not taken back the slightest.

I'm quite baffled at your approach here, and I think this maybe my last post to this discussion then perhaps after Muharam we can discuss Uthman's caliphate as I agreed in the other thread.

Instead of addressing my points which, were whether you've studied the research presented by brother Fahad Sani, and the links I shared which, proves the Prophet (SAW) indeed had more than one daughter, and two of them were married to Uthman, and the Ahadiths where he was promised Jannah you've skipped/fast forwarded to by presenting a series of questions that does not rebuttal these facts.

Not being presented at Mubahila, or being considered as a part of Ahlul Bhayt are not cornerstones that one must achieve in order to be loved by the Prophet (SAW). He was above that. What sort of logic, or methodology is this? If such was the case then I reiterate he would not have given him his two daughters, and promised him Jannah. Being rewarded Jannah, and as a bonus being loved by the Prophet (SAW) himself is unconditionally based on fulfilling the commandments of Allah, and Sunnah of the Messenger (SAW) - it's simple as that really. Many of the companions were not a part of his Ahlul Bhayt that doesn't mean he didn't love them, how could he not after all the many years of sacrifice. For the brothers asking for proof once again you can find a PDF file revealing your own classical scholars/literature confirmed Fatima was not the only biological child of the Prophet (SAW):

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235041516-four-daughters-of-prophet-muhammad-saww/?page=1

I believe I told you before that he one had child with Ruqayyah who passed away well before the incident of Mubahila including the other three daughters. The sources can be found in the links in my last post in the same thread (above).

When Allah, and his Messenger (SAW) praised the people who took part in most of the expeditions they did so because of their willingness/sacrifice. It's not easy to risking your wife becoming a widow, and your kid’s orphans. I hope you agree. It wasn't about how many people one could kill. There is no doubt, and everyone is aware of Ali's, and among other companions heroics in battles, but the Qur'an/authentic Sunnah doesn't confirm that those who caused most causalities exclusively would be deserving of the praise, and fad'hail. The fact Uthman was physically present at every expedition was sufficient except for Badr. Having said that the Prophet (SAW) explicitly said he still considers him a Badree because he commanded him to stay behind, and hence distributed a portion of the war booty to him. :) A good example of this is Tabuk. Although, Tabuk was mandatory, and no battle took place look how the Prophet (SAW) initially, and then Allah himself reprimanded Ka'b ibn Malik, and the others for merely not participating.

In the End no matter what virtue was given to anyone our ultimate destination in Jannah, and Allah, and His Messenger (SAW) has proclaimed Uthman will take his rightful place in Jannah. So, we can debate from now until Qiyamah why he did this, or why he did x, y, and z ,it will not change the promise that was made to him. If you guys don't believe that because it's coming from our sources then fair enough, but then it's insanely illogical for you to hand-pick Hadith from our sources showing off the virtues of Ahlul Bhayt even if they're corroborates with Hadiths found in your own sources.

 

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nbismillah.gif

salam1.jpg

With all due respect my brother, how come we never heard about his daughters for the past 1400 years and all of the sudden our Holy Prophet s.a.w. had more than one daughter? Give me a break, don't fall for Shaitin and Wahabis but then again since you are here new and jump on this subject, it could only mean one,  thing and that is ARE A WAHABI/SALAFI who were banned but make a new account. I can smell a wahabi/salafi from miles away.

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1 hour ago, Megatron said:

Hi.

 

Respected brother, I appreciate you taking my feelings into consideration, but I am not taken back the slightest.

 

I'm quite baffled at your approach here, and I think this maybe my last post to this discussion then perhaps after Muharam we can discuss Uthman's caliphate as I agreed in the other thread.

 

Instead of addressing my points which, were whether you've studied the research presented by brother Fahad Sani, and the links I shared which, proves the Prophet (SAW) indeed had more than one daughter, and two of them were married to Uthman, and the Ahadiths where he was promised Jannah you've skipped/fast forwarded to by presenting a series of questions that does not rebuttal these facts.

 

Not being presented at Mubahila, or being considered as a part of Ahlul Bhayt are not cornerstones that one must achieve in order to be loved by the Prophet (SAW). He was above that. What sort of logic, or methodology is this? If such was the case then I reiterate he would not have given him his two daughters, and promised him Jannah. Being rewarded Jannah, and as a bonus being loved by the Prophet (SAW) himself is unconditionally based on fulfilling the commandments of Allah, and Sunnah of the Messenger (SAW) - it's simple as that really. Many of the companions were not a part of his Ahlul Bhayt that doesn't mean he didn't love them, how could he not after all the many years of sacrifice. For the brothers asking for proof once again you can find a PDF file revealing your own classical scholars/literature confirmed Fatima was not the only biological child of the Prophet (SAW):

 

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235041516-four-daughters-of-prophet-muhammad-saww/?page=1

 

I believe I told you before that he one had child with Ruqayyah who passed away well before the incident of Mubahila including the other three daughters. The sources can be found in the links in my last post in the same thread (above).

Again dear brother - the daughters of the Prophet is a separate issue from whom they were or were not married too. I am still on the fence because no one has provided proof beyond reasonable doubt.

I created this thread to discuss the (mis)perceptions of Caliph Uthman that either side has.

1 hour ago, Megatron said:

When Allah, and his Messenger (SAW) praised the people who took part in most of the expeditions they did so because of their willingness/sacrifice. It's not easy to risking your wife becoming a widow, and your kid’s orphans. I hope you agree. It wasn't about how many people one could kill. There is no doubt, and everyone is aware of Ali's, and among other companions heroics in battles, but the Qur'an/authentic Sunnah doesn't confirm that those who caused most causalities exclusively would be deserving of the praise, and fad'hail. The fact Uthman was physically present at every expedition was sufficient except for Badr. Having said that the Prophet (SAW) explicitly said he still considers him a Badree because he commanded him to stay behind, and hence distributed a portion of the war booty to him. :) A good example of this is Tabuk. Although, Tabuk was mandatory, and no battle took place look how the Prophet (SAW) initially, and then Allah himself reprimanded Ka'b ibn Malik, and the others for merely not participating.

If you and I worked for the same company and I came to you and said, "Employee X is fantastic, I am going to double his raise". Most naturally, your first question will be "Why or what has he done to deserve this?" I will follow with a list of accomplishment of Employee X to show he deserves it.

So the Prophet (saw) said Caliph Uthman was fantastic and will go to jannah. Now let's discuss why the Prophet said so? What did Caliph Uthman achieve before and during the Prophethood to deserve these accolades and jannah.

Prior to announcing his Prophethood, Hz Muhammad was a monotheist. One would think that he would have married his daughters to other monotheists and not an idol worshiper. 

During Prophethood, we have circumstantial evidence at best that caliph Uthman was married to the Prophet's daughters. The lack of Prophet's closeness to their children is sufficient proof that this marriage may not have existed.

The other 2 things mentioned are Hudaibiya which we know why he was chosen (lack of kuffar kills) and financing Tabuk. Is there much else?

1 hour ago, Megatron said:

In the End no matter what virtue was given to anyone our ultimate destination in Jannah, and Allah, and His Messenger (SAW) has proclaimed Uthman will take his rightful place in Jannah. So, we can debate from now until Qiyamah why he did this, or why he did x, y, and z ,it will not change the promise that was made to him. If you guys don't believe that because it's coming from our sources then fair enough, but then it's insanely illogical for you to hand-pick Hadith from our sources showing off the virtues of Ahlul Bhayt even if they're corroborates with Hadiths found in your own sources.

I dont believe for a second that the Prophet promised jannah to Caliph Uthman - that is what I mean by Ummayya propaganda. Let's delve into the hadith that state this and investigate them.

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Brother @Megatron

 

R. V. C. Bodley: The Messenger – the Life of Mohammed, "During Muhammad's lifetime Uthman was not an outstanding figure and was not assigned to any authority, and was not ever distinguished in any of Muhammad's campaigns. Bodley also believed that after Umar's assassination, Ali rejected the caliphate as he disagreed with governing according to regulations established by Abu Bakr and Umar, and that Uthman, being less honest than Ali, accepted those terms which he failed to administrate during his ten years Caliphate. He subjected most of the Islamic nation to his relatives, Bani Umayya, who were partially accursed during Muhamad's lifetime. Uthman compiled the Qur'an, and burnt its other copies. Uthman's governing policies and nepotism led to openly rise of dissatisfaction and resistance throughout most of the empire, especially among noble Companions of Muhammad."

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I would like Shias to think logically for a moment and stop comparing Uthman (ra) to Ali (as). 

Instead, compare Uthman (ra) to other great companions of the Prophet salalahu alaihi wa salam like Salman (ra), Abu Dhar (ra), or Miqdad (ra). Then ask yourself, why didn't the Prophet salalahu alaihi wa salam give his daughters to them instead of some evil/irrelevant man like Uthman (ra)?

This is clear proof of Uthman's (ra) good character.

Also, Shias that don't believe that the Prophet salalahu alaihi wa salam had more than one daughter need to read Surat Al Ahzab fully, and not just verse 33. Read verse 59 where Allah azza wa jal says:

O Prophet! Say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers that they let down upon them their over-garments; this will be more proper, that they may be known, and thus they will not be given trouble; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

 

Daughters is plural. There is no denying that the Prophet salalahu alaihi wa salam had more than one daughter.

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5 minutes ago, submitter71 said:

I would like Shias to think logically for a moment and stop comparing Uthman (ra) to Ali (as). 

Instead, compare Uthman (ra) to other great companions of the Prophet salalahu alaihi wa salam like Salman (ra), Abu Dhar (ra), or Miqdad (ra). Then ask yourself, why didn't the Prophet salalahu alaihi wa salam give his daughters to them instead of some evil/irrelevant man like Uthman (ra)?

This is clear proof of Uthman's (ra) good character.

Also, Shias that don't believe that the Prophet salalahu alaihi wa salam had more than one daughter need to read Surat Al Ahzab fully, and not just verse 33. Read verse 59 where Allah azza wa jal says:

O Prophet! Say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers that they let down upon them their over-garments; this will be more proper, that they may be known, and thus they will not be given trouble; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

 

Daughters is plural. There is no denying that the Prophet salalahu alaihi wa salam had more than one daughter.

Brother - the number of daughters of the Prophet is one topic.

Who they were married to is another topic.

We are already past the issue of whether Caliph Uthman was trustworthy and good character or not.

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7 minutes ago, submitter71 said:

Also, Shias that don't believe that the Prophet salalahu alaihi wa salam had more than one daughter need to read Surat Al Ahzab fully, and not just verse 33. Read verse 59 where Allah azza wa jal says:

O Prophet! Say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers that they let down upon them their over-garments; this will be more proper, that they may be known, and thus they will not be given trouble; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Daughters is plural. There is no denying that the Prophet salalahu alaihi wa salam had more than one daughter.

Ayah Mubahila calls for women but the Prophet only took 1 woman. Allah refers to himself as WE in several places in the Quran, are there multiple Allahs?

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3 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

Ayah Mubahila calls for women but the Prophet only took 1 woman. Allah refers to himself as WE in several places in the Quran, are there multiple Allahs?

 

If you truly believe that Allah azza wa jal is referring to the Prophet salalahu alaihi wa salam in singular form, then to his daughter in the same verse in plural form, then I cannot help you. 

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1 hour ago, submitter71 said:

If you truly believe that Allah azza wa jal is referring to the Prophet salalahu alaihi wa salam in singular form, then to his daughter in the same verse in plural form, then I cannot help you. 

 

3-61.jpg

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12 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

 

3-61.jpg

 

The verse is referring to the women as plural because the women around the Prophet salalahu alaihi wa salam are multiple. Him choosing one woman does not mean that Allah azza wa jal is referring to Fatima (as) in plural form, nor is Allah azza wa jal referring to one of the Christian women in plural form either. 

 

 

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21 minutes ago, submitter71 said:

The verse is referring to the women as plural because the women around the Prophet salalahu alaihi wa salam are multiple. Him choosing one woman does not mean that Allah azza wa jal is referring to Fatima (as) in plural form, nor is Allah azza wa jal referring to one of the Christian women in plural form either. 

The verse asks for plural, Prophet takes only Fatima? Why is that?

Similarly, Allah refers to himself as WE, are their multiple Allahs?

Oh Prophet, say to your wives, daughters and women...
Bring your women...

In both cases, Allah uses the plural but does that necessarily mean multiple daughters? Since the Prophet is the Father of the Ummah, couldnt it mean all young women under the fold of Islam?

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Plurality is because the command is general, even though the Christians didn't bring their women and children along with them. It's not that Allah(swt) is addressing one lady as women or one christian lady as women, rather the command is general for Muslims and Christians. But Prophet(pbuh) came forth with his daughter and son-in law and their two children because they were the ones from whom his progeny going to survive, and this showed his level of confidence and truthfulness.

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On 14/09/2016 at 7:28 PM, shiaman14 said:

Brother @Megatron

 

R. V. C. Bodley: The Messenger – the Life of Mohammed, "During Muhammad's lifetime Uthman was not an outstanding figure and was not assigned to any authority, and was not ever distinguished in any of Muhammad's campaigns. Bodley also believed that after Umar's assassination, Ali rejected the caliphate as he disagreed with governing according to regulations established by Abu Bakr and Umar, and that Uthman, being less honest than Ali, accepted those terms which he failed to administrate during his ten years Caliphate. He subjected most of the Islamic nation to his relatives, Bani Umayya, who were partially accursed during Muhamad's lifetime. Uthman compiled the Qur'an, and burnt its other copies. Uthman's governing policies and nepotism led to openly rise of dissatisfaction and resistance throughout most of the empire, especially among noble Companions of Muhammad."

Hi,

I'm sure just like you guys will take your information from local, and authentic sources.

We're no different. The view/opinion of a bias orientalist holds no weight for us.

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On 14/09/2016 at 0:01 AM, shiaman14 said:

Again dear brother - the daughters of the Prophet is a separate issue from whom they were or were not married too. I am still on the fence because no one has provided proof beyond reasonable doubt.

I created this thread to discuss the (mis)perceptions of Caliph Uthman that either side has.

I dont believe for a second that the Prophet promised jannah to Caliph Uthman - that is what I mean by Ummayya propaganda. Let's delve into the hadith that state this and investigate them.

It's not a separate issue because one of the greatest yet sweetest perceptions of this great companion was he married two daughters of the Prophet (SAW). No other human being in history has had such an honour. It is very much relevant to the thread.

I ask you once more, and this probably for third consecutive time. Have you had a chance, or even bothered to read the document posted by @Fahad Sani which, confirms even your own classical scholars based on Shia sources agreed the Prophet (SAW) had more than one biological daughter, and that they were married to Uthman. I am sure once you've even started reviewing it you'll fall off the fence at least.

Quote

So the Prophet (saw) said Caliph Uthman was fantastic and will go to jannah. Now let's discuss why the Prophet said so? What did Caliph Uthman achieve before and during the Prophethood to deserve these accolades and jannah.

Would you apply this method even if it was Ali, or anyone else that you revered, or would you simply accept the Hadith providing it was unanimously agreed as authentic by the giants of Hadith? I have a feeling you wouldn't. Likewise, we openly accept the narrations collected by our classical Muhadithoon pertaining to the virtues of Uthman. This even in principle is an absurd approach, you're challenging the Prophet's (SAW) judgement unless you just openly reject certain narrations, but you maybe willing to accept some since you're ready to discuss them as you may have a different interpretation for example Hudaibiyya. I said on more than one occasion this method is not ideal for a fruitful debate, and you need to academically disapprove why such narrations is false in your view not dismissing because it isn't compatible with Shia's doctrine.

If you reflect upon our discussion in the last thread, I went into a bit of detail listing the key virtues of Uthman, and why the Prophet (SAW) admired him for that, and grant him the glad tiding of Jannah. Once you study the basic fundamentals of Islam, and make the connection with the virtues of Uthman it's clear as my iPhone 7 display why the Prophet (SAW) adored Uthman.

Quote

I dont believe for a second that the Prophet promised jannah to Caliph Uthman - that is what I mean by Ummayya propaganda. Let's delve into the hadith that state this and investigate them.

That's fine, but we do. This connected with what I said above is the reason why this topic is getting sorta' boring, and pointless continuing since you're not willing to be totally subjective.

Edited by Megatron

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49 minutes ago, Megatron said:

I ask you once more, and this probably for third consecutive time. Have you had a chance, or even bothered to read the document posted by @Fahad Sani which, confirms even your own classical scholars based on Shia sources agreed the Prophet (SAW) had more than one biological daughter, and that they were married to Uthman. I am sure once you've even started reviewing it you'll fall off the fence at least.

Can you please share some names? I did a search and found that Al Mufeed holds this opinion and he is their top history scholar. It is good to see that their scholars didn't always resort to these weak interpretations. 

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10 hours ago, AbbaJaan said:

Plurality is because the command is general

That's is all I am saying too.

1 hour ago, Megatron said:

Hi,

I'm sure just like you guys will take your information from local, and authentic sources.

We're no different. The view/opinion of a bias orientalist holds no weight for us.

I gave you my view and it wasn't good enough. So I gave the view of a 'neutral'. Why would he be biased just against Caliph Uthman?

1 hour ago, Megatron said:

Would you apply this method even if it was Ali, or anyone else that you revered, or would you simply accept the Hadith providing it was unanimously agreed as authentic by the giants of Hadith? I have a feeling you wouldn't. Likewise, we openly accept the narrations collected by our classical Muhadithoon pertaining to the virtues of Uthman. This even in principle is an absurd approach, you're challenging the Prophet's (SAW) judgement unless you just openly reject certain narrations, but you maybe willing to accept some since you're ready to discuss them as you may have a different interpretation for example Hudaibiyya. I said on more than one occasion this method is not ideal for a fruitful debate, and you need to academically disapprove why such narrations is false in your view not dismissing because it isn't compatible with Shia's doctrine.

We absolutely do apply the same method for Ali, Hasan, Hussain, etc. Ali is not great just because the Prophet called him great. Ali did great things because of which the Prophet called him great.

Brother - we have the same barometer for everyone.

1 hour ago, Megatron said:

It's not a separate issue because one of the greatest yet sweetest perceptions of this great companion was he married two daughters of the Prophet (SAW). No other human being in history has had such an honour. It is very much relevant to the thread.

I ask you once more, and this probably for third consecutive time. Have you had a chance, or even bothered to read the document posted by @Fahad Sani which, confirms even your own classical scholars based on Shia sources agreed the Prophet (SAW) had more than one biological daughter, and that they were married to Uthman. I am sure once you've even started reviewing it you'll fall off the fence at least.

As I have stated before, I am on the fence about the daughters even though some shia scholars have also said so. Let's take that up in the other thread.

1 hour ago, Megatron said:

If you reflect upon our discussion in the last thread, I went into a bit of detail listing the key virtues of Uthman, and why the Prophet (SAW) admired him for that, and grant him the glad tiding of Jannah. Once you study the basic fundamentals of Islam, and make the connection with the virtues of Uthman it's clear as my iPhone 7 display why the Prophet (SAW) adored Uthman.

Brother - it was just a list of accolades without any reasoning. I am sure you will agree that if we just matched accolades, Ali's are far superior than anyone else. I am looking for what did he actually do to deserve these accolades.

22 minutes ago, submitter71 said:

Can you please share some names? I did a search and found that Al Mufeed holds this opinion and he is their top history scholar. It is good to see that their scholars didn't always resort to these weak interpretations. 

Ammar Nakshwani gave a speech or answered this in a Q&A that it is possible the Prophet had other daughters.

1 hour ago, Megatron said:

That's fine, but we do. This connected with what I said above is the reason why this topic is getting sorta' boring, and pointless continuing since you're not willing to be totally subjective.

I am willing to be totally objective about this. How about this - can you or anyone else list out Caliph Uthman's achievements during the life of the Prophet (I don't mean accolades, actual achievements). I will start it:

1) Selected for Hudaibiya (though not an achievement for me because he was chosen for his lack kuffar killing)

2) Financed Tabuk

3) .....

4) .....

Edited by shiaman14

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10 minutes ago, submitter71 said:

Ammar Nakshwani is not a scholar. Al Mufeed is the top Shia historian.

wait, so I should reject his assertions that the Prophet had more daughters?

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2 minutes ago, submitter71 said:

Reject that it is "possible". Accept that is was a reality. 

Yes, I did read your post wrong. :)

well now I wont because you told me not to :).

 

Just kidding...

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The Prophet SAWS said: “This man and his companions are on truth and guidance.” I (Murrah) said: This one O Prophet SAWS? He SAWS said: “Yes him” Then I walked to him and it was ‘Uthman bin 'Affan may Allah be pleased with him.

Source: al-Wadi’ee said Sahih in “Sahih al-Musnad”, al-Albani said “Sahih on the condition of the two Sheikhs” in al-Silsilah al-Sahiha.


عن حذيفة قال أول الفتن قتل عثمان بن عفان وآخر الفتن خروج الدجال والذي نفسي بيده لا يموت رجل وفي قلبه مثقال حبة من حب قتل عثمان إلا تبع الدجال إن أدركه وإن لم يدركه آمن به في قبره

Hudhaifah [ra] states: The first fitna is the killing of Uthman while the final fitna would be the emergergence of Dajjal. By Allah, in whose control my life is, a person in whose heart there is a grain of love for the killing of Uthman , such a person would not die without following Dajjal, if Dajjal emerges in his (that person's) lifetime, otherwise, that person would bring Iman on Dajjal in his grave".

 

أحمد بسنده أيضاً عن محمد بن حاطب قال : سمعت علياً يقول يعني : { إن الذين سبقت لهم منا الحسنى }منهم عثمان

Ahmad with its isnad from Muhammad bin Hatib that he said: “I heard Ali reciting {Surely (as for) those for whom the good reward has already gone forth from Us} [21:101] and he said that from amongst them is Uthman.”[Fadael al Sahaba (1/475) #771 the researcher of the book (Muhaqqiq) said Isnaduhu SAHIH, Ibn Abi ‘Asim in his al-Sunnah (2/574) #1216 and Ibn Jareer in his Tafseer (17/75) and al-Zamakhshari in his Mukhtasar Kitab al Muwafaqa p101.]

 

Al-Bayhaqi in his “al-I`tiqad”:
أَخْبَرَنَا أَبُو طَاهِرٍ الْفَقِيهُ، أنا أَبُو بَكْرٍ مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الْحُسَيْنِ الْقَطَّانُ، ثنا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ يُوسُفَ السُّلَمِيُّ، ثنا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يُوسُفَ، قَالَ: ذَكَرَ سُفْيَانُ، عَنْ جَعْفَرِ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، قَالَ: قَالَ عَلِيٌّ: إِنِّي لأَرْجُو أَنْ أَكونَ، وَطَلْحَةُ، وَالزُّبَيْرُ مِنَ الَّذِينَ قَالَ اللَّهُ : وَنَزَعْنَا مَا فِي صُدُورِهِمْ مِنْ غِلٍّ إِخْوَانًا عَلَى سُرُرٍ مُتَقَابِلِينَ. وَكَانَ أَمِيرُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ، بَرِيئًا مِنْ قَتْلِ عُثْمَانَ، يَقُولُ: وَاللَّهِ مَا قَتَلْتُ وَلا أَمَرْتُ وَلا رَضِيتُ وَلا شَارَكْتُ فِي قَتْلِ عُثْمَانَ، وَلَكِنْ غُلِبْتُ، وَكَانَ يَقُولُ: إِنِّي لأَرْجُو أَنْ أَكُونَ أَنَا، وَعُثْمَانُ مِنَ الَّذِينَ قَالَ اللَّهُ : وَنَزَعْنَا مَا فِي صُدُورِهِمْ مِنْ غِلٍّ إِخْوَانًا عَلَى سُرُرٍ مُتَقَابِلِينَ
[Al-Baqir said: `Ali ibn abi Talib said: “I wish that I and Talhah and al-Zubayr would be from those whom Allah described: {And We will remove whatever is in their breasts of resentment, [so they will be] brothers, on thrones facing each other (In paradise)}” and Ameer-ul-Mu’mineen may Allah be pleased with him was innocent from the murder of `Uthman, he would say: “By Allah I never took part in the killing nor did I order it nor am I pleased with it and I never participated in `Uthman’s murder, but I failed (to help because of the rebels).” And he used to say: “I wish that I and `Uthman would be as Allah described: {Brothers on thrones facing each other}.”]

 

. Ali(ra) tells us his opinion of why the rebellion of `Uthman(ra) was done in the first place, in al-Sunan by `Abdullah we read:

حَدَّثَنِي إِسْمَاعِيلُ أَبُو مَعْمَرٍ، نا عَبَّادُ بْنُ الْعَوَّامِ، عَنِ الْجُرَيْرِيِّ، عَنْ مُضَارِبِ بْنِ حَزْنٍ، قَالَ: قِيلَ لِعَلِيٍّ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ: ” مَا حَمَلَهُمْ عَلَى قَتْلِ عُثْمَانَ؟ قَالَ: الْحَسَدُ
[Isma`eel abu Ma`mar told me, `Abbas bin `Awwam told me, from Sa`eed bin Iyas al-Jariri, from Mudarib bin Hazan, he said: They said to `Ali(ra): “What caused them to kill `Uthman?” He replied: “Jealousy.”]

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8 hours ago, submitter71 said:

Can you please share some names? I did a search and found that Al Mufeed holds this opinion and he is their top history scholar. It is good to see that their scholars didn't always resort to these weak interpretations. 

Here's a few snippets. @shiaman14 - check it out.

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. Ali(ra) tells us his opinion of why the rebellion of `Uthman(ra) was done in the first place, in al-Sunan by `Abdullah we read:

حَدَّثَنِي إِسْمَاعِيلُ أَبُو مَعْمَرٍ، نا عَبَّادُ بْنُ الْعَوَّامِ، عَنِ الْجُرَيْرِيِّ، عَنْ مُضَارِبِ بْنِ حَزْنٍ، قَالَ: قِيلَ لِعَلِيٍّ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ: ” مَا حَمَلَهُمْ عَلَى قَتْلِ عُثْمَانَ؟ قَالَ: الْحَسَدُ
[Isma`eel abu Ma`mar told me, `Abbas bin `Awwam told me, from Sa`eed bin Iyas al-Jariri, from Mudarib bin Hazan, he said: They said to `Ali(ra): “What caused them to kill `Uthman?” He replied: “Jealousy.”]

@AbbaJaan, brother what is the exact source of this Hadith?

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On 9/16/2016 at 7:11 PM, AbbaJaan said:

The Prophet SAWS said: “This man and his companions are on truth and guidance.” I (Murrah) said: This one O Prophet SAWS? He SAWS said: “Yes him” Then I walked to him and it was ‘Uthman bin 'Affan may Allah be pleased with him.

Source: al-Wadi’ee said Sahih in “Sahih al-Musnad”, al-Albani said “Sahih on the condition of the two Sheikhs” in al-Silsilah al-Sahiha.


عن حذيفة قال أول الفتن قتل عثمان بن عفان وآخر الفتن خروج الدجال والذي نفسي بيده لا يموت رجل وفي قلبه مثقال حبة من حب قتل عثمان إلا تبع الدجال إن أدركه وإن لم يدركه آمن به في قبره

Hudhaifah [ra] states: The first fitna is the killing of Uthman while the final fitna would be the emergergence of Dajjal. By Allah, in whose control my life is, a person in whose heart there is a grain of love for the killing of Uthman , such a person would not die without following Dajjal, if Dajjal emerges in his (that person's) lifetime, otherwise, that person would bring Iman on Dajjal in his grave".

 

أحمد بسنده أيضاً عن محمد بن حاطب قال : سمعت علياً يقول يعني : { إن الذين سبقت لهم منا الحسنى }منهم عثمان

Ahmad with its isnad from Muhammad bin Hatib that he said: “I heard Ali reciting {Surely (as for) those for whom the good reward has already gone forth from Us} [21:101] and he said that from amongst them is Uthman.”[Fadael al Sahaba (1/475) #771 the researcher of the book (Muhaqqiq) said Isnaduhu SAHIH, Ibn Abi ‘Asim in his al-Sunnah (2/574) #1216 and Ibn Jareer in his Tafseer (17/75) and al-Zamakhshari in his Mukhtasar Kitab al Muwafaqa p101.]

 

Al-Bayhaqi in his “al-I`tiqad”:
أَخْبَرَنَا أَبُو طَاهِرٍ الْفَقِيهُ، أنا أَبُو بَكْرٍ مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الْحُسَيْنِ الْقَطَّانُ، ثنا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ يُوسُفَ السُّلَمِيُّ، ثنا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يُوسُفَ، قَالَ: ذَكَرَ سُفْيَانُ، عَنْ جَعْفَرِ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، قَالَ: قَالَ عَلِيٌّ: إِنِّي لأَرْجُو أَنْ أَكونَ، وَطَلْحَةُ، وَالزُّبَيْرُ مِنَ الَّذِينَ قَالَ اللَّهُ : وَنَزَعْنَا مَا فِي صُدُورِهِمْ مِنْ غِلٍّ إِخْوَانًا عَلَى سُرُرٍ مُتَقَابِلِينَ. وَكَانَ أَمِيرُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ، بَرِيئًا مِنْ قَتْلِ عُثْمَانَ، يَقُولُ: وَاللَّهِ مَا قَتَلْتُ وَلا أَمَرْتُ وَلا رَضِيتُ وَلا شَارَكْتُ فِي قَتْلِ عُثْمَانَ، وَلَكِنْ غُلِبْتُ، وَكَانَ يَقُولُ: إِنِّي لأَرْجُو أَنْ أَكُونَ أَنَا، وَعُثْمَانُ مِنَ الَّذِينَ قَالَ اللَّهُ : وَنَزَعْنَا مَا فِي صُدُورِهِمْ مِنْ غِلٍّ إِخْوَانًا عَلَى سُرُرٍ مُتَقَابِلِينَ
[Al-Baqir said: `Ali ibn abi Talib said: “I wish that I and Talhah and al-Zubayr would be from those whom Allah described: {And We will remove whatever is in their breasts of resentment, [so they will be] brothers, on thrones facing each other (In paradise)}” and Ameer-ul-Mu’mineen may Allah be pleased with him was innocent from the murder of `Uthman, he would say: “By Allah I never took part in the killing nor did I order it nor am I pleased with it and I never participated in `Uthman’s murder, but I failed (to help because of the rebels).” And he used to say: “I wish that I and `Uthman would be as Allah described: {Brothers on thrones facing each other}.”]

 

. Ali(ra) tells us his opinion of why the rebellion of `Uthman(ra) was done in the first place, in al-Sunan by `Abdullah we read:

حَدَّثَنِي إِسْمَاعِيلُ أَبُو مَعْمَرٍ، نا عَبَّادُ بْنُ الْعَوَّامِ، عَنِ الْجُرَيْرِيِّ، عَنْ مُضَارِبِ بْنِ حَزْنٍ، قَالَ: قِيلَ لِعَلِيٍّ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ: ” مَا حَمَلَهُمْ عَلَى قَتْلِ عُثْمَانَ؟ قَالَ: الْحَسَدُ
[Isma`eel abu Ma`mar told me, `Abbas bin `Awwam told me, from Sa`eed bin Iyas al-Jariri, from Mudarib bin Hazan, he said: They said to `Ali(ra): “What caused them to kill `Uthman?” He replied: “Jealousy.”]

Still looking for what he actually did during the lifetime of the Prophet for Islam.

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4 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Still looking for what he actually did during the lifetime of the Prophet for Islam.

Ibn Shihab az-Zuhri said: ‘Uthman supplied the army of Tabook with nine hundred and forty camels and sixty horses to bring the number to one thousand. ‘Uthman brought ten thousand dinars to equip the army and placed the money before the Messenger of Allah (salAllahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) and the Messenger (salAllahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) began turning it over with his hand saying,
“No deed can harm ‘Uthman after today” twice.
Sunan at-Tirmidhi, no.3701; Saheeh al-Tawtheeq, p.26

 

When `Uthman (r.a) migrated from Makka to Madina, he found that the Muslims of Madina were suffering from lack of water. The water of most of the wells in Madina was not drinkable. Only one well, named al-Ruma, currently had drinkable water. It was owned by a member of one of the Jewish tribes of Madina, who was selling its water to the Muslims.

The Prophet asked his people,  “Who wants to buy the well of al-Ruma and trade it for a better one in Paradise?”

Hadrat `Uthman (r.a) went off to purchase the well on the spot, but the owner rejected his offer. Hadrat `Uthman (r.a), however, negotiated with him, and managed to buy a half share in the well, so that the Muslims and the Jews could both access water freely on an every-other-day basis. Later on, he bought the whole well. The Prophet asked him if he would be willing to give away the well of al-Ruma as charity, and he accepted the idea right away After that, there were no more water shortages in Madina.

It is narrated that Hadrat `Uthman (r.a) himself used to line up to draw water from the well that he had once owned, just other people did. It is also narrated that this generosity led to the revelation of the famous Qur’anic verse,

O soul at peace! Return to your Lord well-pleased, well-pleasing. Enter among My servants; enter into My garden.(Fajr/89: 27-30).

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