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Sajjad Haider Alvi

Is Sheikh Abdul Qadir Jillani a Syed?

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15 minutes ago, Sajjad Haider Alvi said:

I want to know with evidence that is Sheikh Abdul Qadir Jillani a Hasani Hussaini Syed?

if he was a sayed, he would be "sayed" abdul qadir jilani, not "sheikh" abdul qadir jilani. clue is in the name bro

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2 hours ago, Sajjad Haider Alvi said:

I want to know with evidence that is Sheikh Abdul Qadir Jillani a Hasani Hussaini Syed?

short answer is yes, he is.

He was a Hasani and Hussaini descent, however his father was from Imam Hasan's line, and is a Shareef, techincally not a Sayyed per se. 

Gilani is granted the title Sayyid to indicate his descent from Muhammad.[14] The name Muhiyudin describes him as a "reviver of religion".[15] Gilan (Arabic al-Jilani) refers to his place of birth, Gilan.[16][17] However, Gilani also carried the epithet Baghdadi.[18][19][20] referring to his residence and burial in Baghdad. He is also called al-Hasani wa'l-Husayni, which indicates a claim to lineal descent from both Hasan ibn Ali and Husayn ibn Ali, the sons of Ali and grandsons of Muhammad.[21][22]

Biographical encyclopaedia of sufis: central asia and middle east, pg 123, Vol 2. Hanif N. Sarup and Sons. (2002) ISBN 81-7625-266-2, 9788176252669.

The Election of Caliph/Khalifah and World Peace pg 176. Mowla, Khondakar G. (1998).

Historical and political who's who of Afghanistan. p 177. Adamec, Ludwig W. (1975)

Qādrī, Muḥammad Riyāz̤ (2000-01-01). The Sultan of the Saints: Mystical Life and Teaching of Shaikh Syed Abdul Qadir Jilani. Abbasi Pablications. p. 19. ISBN 9789698510169.

 

Paternal heritage

Gilani's father was from Sayyid lineage.[23][24] He was respected as a saint by the people of his day, and was known as Jangi Dost "who loves God", thus "Jangidost" was his sobriquet.[25][26][27]

Edited by wmehar2

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He was both sharif and syed. 

On 9/9/2016 at 7:02 PM, DigitalUmmah said:

if he was a sayed, he would be "sayed" abdul qadir jilani, not "sheikh" abdul qadir jilani. clue is in the name bro

He is also refered to as sayed abdul qader al gilani. 

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Shajrah-e-Treeqa (Spiritual Golden Chain) of Shaikh Abdul Qadir Jilani  (رضئ الله تعالی عنه )

(1)  Ahmad Mujtaba, Mohammad Mustafa  (صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم)

(2)  Ameer  al-Momineen Ali Ibn Abi Taalib (رضئ الله تعالی عنه )

(3)  Sayyadush Shuhada Imam Hussain  (رضئ الله تعالی عنه )

(4)  Imam al-Abideen Zain al-Abideen  (رضئ الله تعالی عنه )

(5)  Imam al-Muttaqeen Muhammad Baqir (رضئ الله تعالی عنه )

(6)  Imam as-Sadiqeen Muhammad Jaffar Sadiq  (رضئ الله تعالی عنه )

(7)  Imam al-Kamileen Mosa Kazim (رضئ الله تعالی عنه )

(8)  Imam al-Wasileen Moosa Ali Raza  (رضئ الله تعالی عنه )

(9)  Shaikh ad-Deen Ma'aroof Kirkhi   (رضئ الله تعالی عنه )

(10) Shaikh Dhiya ad-Deen Siri Saqati  (رضئ الله تعالی عنه )

(11) Shaikh Junaid Baghdaadi  (رضئ الله تعالی عنه )

(12) Shaikh Abdullah Abu Bakr Shibli  (رضئ الله تعالی عنه ) 

(13) Shaikh Abu al-Fadhal Abd al-Wahed Tamimi  (رضئ الله تعالی عنه )

(14) Shaikh Alauddin Abu al-Farah Tartoosi  (رضئ الله تعالی عنه ) 

(15) Shaikh Abu al-Hassan Ali Quraishi Hankari (رضئ الله تعالی عنه )

(16) Shaikh Abu Sa'eed Mubarak Ibn al-Mukharrimi  (رضئ الله تعالی عنه )

(17) Shaikh Abdul Qadir Jilani, Mahboob-e-Subhaani (رضئ الله تعالی عنه )

  

Shajrah-e-Nasab (Paternal Family Tree) of Shaikh Abdul Qadir Jilani  (رضئ الله تعالی عنه )

(1) Shaikh Abdul Qadir Jilani, Mahboob-e-Subhaani (رضئ الله تعالی عنه )

(2)  Syed Abu Salih Mosa Jangidost  (رضئ الله تعالی عنه )

(3)  Syed Abdullah Jeeli  (رضئ الله تعالی عنه )

(4)  Syed Muhammad Yahaya Zahid  (رضئ الله تعالی عنه )

(5)  Syed Shams-ud-Din Muhammad Moris (رضئ الله تعالی عنه )

(6)  Syed Siraj-ud-Din Daud Amjad (رضئ الله تعالی عنه )

(7)  Syed Mosa Thani (رضئ الله تعالی عنه )

(8)  Syed Abdullah Thani  (رضئ الله تعالی عنه )

(9)  Syed Mosa Jaon  (رضئ الله تعالی عنه )

(10) Syed Abdullah Al-Mahz (رضئ الله تعالی عنه )

(11) Syed Hassan Musanna  (رضئ الله تعالی عنه )

(12) Ameer  al-Momineen, Imam Hassan Mujtaba (رضئ الله تعالی عنه )

(13) Ameer  al-Momineen Ali Ibn Abi Taalib (رضئ الله تعالی عنه )

       Sayyidatin Nisai Fatima Az-Zahara (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہا)

14. Ahmad Mujtaba, Mohammad Mustafa  (صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم).

 

Shajrah-e-Nasab (Maternal Family Tree) of Shaikh Abdul Qadir Jilani  (رضئ الله تعالی عنه )

(1)  Ummul Khair Fatima, Umm Sh. Abdul Qadir (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہا)

(2)  Abdullah As-Somaei Az-Zahid (رضئ الله تعالی عنه )

(3)  Hadhrat Syed Muhammad (رضئ الله تعالی عنه )

(4)  Hadhrat Syed Mehmood (رضئ الله تعالی عنه )

(5)  Hadhrat Syed Abul Attaar Abdullah (رضئ الله تعالی عنه )

(6)  Hadhrat Syed Kamal-ud-din Esa (رضئ الله تعالی عنه )

(7)  Hadhrat Abu Ala-ud-din Muhammad Aljawaad (رضئ الله تعالی عنه )

(8)  Imam al-Wasileen Moosa Ali Raza  (رضئ الله تعالی عنه )

(9)  Imam al-Kamileen Mosa Kazim (رضئ الله تعالی عنه )

(10) Imam as-Sadiqeen Muhammad Jaffar Sadiq  (رضئ الله تعالی عنه )

(11) Imam al-Muttaqeen Muhammad Baqir (رضئ الله تعالی عنه )

(12) Imam al-Abideen Zain al-Abideen  (رضئ الله تعالی عنه )

(13) Sayyadush Shuhada Imam Hussain  (رضئ الله تعالی عنه )

(14) Ameer  al-Momineen Ali Ibn Abi Taalib (رضئ الله تعالی عنه )

       Sayyidatin Nisai Fatima Az-Zahara (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہا)

(15) Ahmad Mujtaba Mohammad Mustafa  (صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم)

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I was told my whole life that I am a Gilani Syed. I actually even have a Shijra that goes back to the Prophet. I decided to get my ancestry test done. The results showed that I am 93% South Asian with zero middle eastern or anything in me. There was some Central Asia and East Asia if that means anything. Furthermore, my yhaplogroup does not align with any of the Syeds in the middle east, rather it matches with other groups.

In no way am I saying that Abdul Qadir Gilani is not a Syed. But what I can confirm is that these Gilani Syeds from my huge Shijra are not Syeds. I think we will get a more concrete answers once more Gilanis do these types of test. I believe a lot of South Asian Syeds have a high chance of not being Syed. And many peoples results are indicating that and these are not only Gilani Syeds rather they are other types of Syeds. Shijras are not reliable at all and that should be a lesson learned from this post.  

 

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On 9/9/2016 at 8:56 PM, wmehar2 said:

He was a Hasani and Hussaini descent, however his father was from Imam Hasan's line, and is a Shareef, techincally not a Sayyed per

 

On 9/10/2016 at 1:53 AM, Bint Abbas said:

He was both sharif and syed. 

Salams to both of you....A Syed is a Syed be it from Imam Hasan(as) or Imam Husain(as) lineage.  How can Imam Hasan(as) son not be a Syed??????

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On 3/7/2017 at 4:11 PM, haideriam said:

Salams to both of you....A Syed is a Syed be it from Imam Hasan(as) or Imam Husain(as) lineage.  How can Imam Hasan(as) son not be a Syed??????

Wasalaam bro,  I didn't make up the convention, that seems to be the common naming pattern.   I belief Sharif was derived from the Sharifs of Mecca who ruled the hijaz region, these men were of direct lineage from imam Hassan,  down to King of Jordan and  formerly Iraq.   So instead of applying the title Sayyid,  all Hassani descendants  applied Sharifs,  while Those descended from imam Hussein retained sayyid nomenclature. 

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My apologies if it looked like I was pinning the name blame on you. 

It was more on people who just keep on inventing names and more so in this particular instance as people think we Shias find favour more with Imam Hussain(عليه السلام) than with Imam Hasan(عليه السلام). Little do they know that the elder brother was the Imam of the younger one.

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On 9/9/2016 at 11:46 PM, Sajjad Haider Alvi said:

I want to know with evidence that is Sheikh Abdul Qadir Jillani a Hasani Hussaini Syed?

Apparently Sheikh Abdul Qadir Jillani never claimed he was a Syed. He is reported to have made an ambiguous comment which many have seized on to say he is Syed

The claim to being Syed was made by his son I believe  

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On 10/09/2016 at 10:56 AM, wmehar2 said:

his father was from Imam Hasan's line, and is a Shareef, techincally not a Sayyed per se. 

That is not true at all.

The children of Imam Hasan and Imam Husain were all Syeds.

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33 minutes ago, baqar said:

That is not true at all.

The children of Imam Hasan and Imam Husain were all Syeds.

I grew up in the Sunni world, this is probably why we differ here.  There is a practical reason why  HaSaNi were referred to Sharifs... as I explained before. 

Sunnis in the Arab world reserve the term sharif for descendants of Hasan ibn Ali, while sayyid is used for descendants of Husayn ibn Ali, Hasan's younger brother.[citation needed] Both Hasan and Husayn are grandchildren of the Islamic Prophet Muhammad, through the marriage of his cousin Ali and his daughter Fatima. However ever since the post-Hashemite era began in 1925 after the fall of the Sharif of Mecca, the term sayyid has been used to denote descendants from both Hasan and Husayn. Shiites use the terms sayyid and habib to denote descendants from both Hasan and Husayn; see also ashraf. Sayyids having ancestry from both Imams Hasan and Husayn use the terms Shareefayn , Sayyidayn, Sayyid AlShareef or Sheikh Assayyid before their names and call themselves Najeeb AlTarfayn

From 1201 until 1925, when the Hejaz was conquered by Ibn Saud, this family (the descendants of Hasan ibn Ali) held the office of the Sharīf of Mecca, often also carrying the title and office of King of Hejaz. Descendants now rule the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, the name being taken from the Banu Hashim, the sub-tribe of Banu Quraish, to which Prophet Muhammad belonged.

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However despite the article I pasted,  I know a great deal of  gulf and Hejazi Arabs that refer to themselves or have Shareef/Sharif in their name denoting a Hasani lineage while Hosseini have the Sayyid title... 

Either way Sayyid, is broken down by meaning an honorific title that can be used by non descendends of AhlulBayt and alike, along with Sharif too....   

Now it's "commonly"  understood to mean a descendant of the family.  I'm not saying a Sharif isn't sayyid if you interpret it to mean descendant of the AhlulBayt, I'm just saying what titles were commonly used to specify which branch of AhlulBayt one descended from... at least in the Sunni world.

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However despite the article I pasted,  I know a great deal of  gulf and Hejazi Arabs that refer to themselves or have Shareef/Sharif in their name denoting a Hasani lineage while Hosseini have the Sayyid title... 

Either way Sayyid, is broken down by meaning an honorific title that can be used by non descendends of AhlulBayt and alike, along with Sharif too....   

Now it's "commonly"  understood to mean a descendant of the family.  I'm not saying a Sharif isn't sayyid if you interpret it to mean descendant of the AhlulBayt, I'm just saying what titles were commonly used to specify which branch of AhlulBayt one descended from... at least in the Sunni world.

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3 hours ago, Hassan Y said:

@wmehar2 is there a lot of syeds (decendents of ahlulbayt) in the Sunni world? I thought like 99% of the syeds living today were shia.

A great deal actually are but however very few are descended from Imams after imam Musa al khadim AS, after imam Musa you l see fewer Sunni Sayyids.

And no, 99% is grossly exaggerated.

However it's hard to determine accurately without concrete Y DNA studies.

An overwhelming amount of Arabs have submitted their DNA samples to various databases and they were able to find a confident line of direct descent of a subclade of a haplogroup.

There's also debate about who is a sayyid and who is not, based on conflicting DNA reports.  It may be possible a family is descended from the prophet, but not direct male to male,  consequently disrupting Y DNA signature, there's those who aren't at all Sayyid but claim to be , but instead is a fabrication unbeknownst to them,  then a very very small group of people who don't know they're sayyid, and finally the group who are sayyid and know it.

And then there is applying the Sunni and Shia bucket. 

Unfortunately DNA can only narrow down a tribe/class of people not person by person.

We can only accurately determine who is from Quraysh/Banu Hashimy.

Further subclade tests are being conducted with technology improving to see if they can hone in on specific mutation differences from subtribes, such as Banu Makhdoom, Makhdum,  Hasani or Hosseini in order to make them distinct.

 

Here:

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Qurayishj1c3d/

 

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Qurayishj1c3d/default.aspx?section=yresults

 

Notice how many of these Sayyids go by Sharif instead in the above table.

Below is Iranian samples which most can assume are shia:

 

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Iranian Y-DNA/default.aspx?section=ycolorized

The y DNA haplogroup vary too much for Iran, none of which have the signature of Quraysh, though few of the J1 umbrella type .

From Iraq which who knows who is Sunni or shia:

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Iraq?iframe=yresults

Widely varying results but many more who go by Sayyid with the haplogroup subclade of Quraysh.

The whole which is sayyid aND who isn't  deal needs to be rethought out.

 

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6 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

A great deal actually are but however very few are descended from Imams after imam Musa al khadim AS, after imam Musa you l see fewer Sunni Sayyids.

And no, 99% is grossly exaggerated.

However it's hard to determine accurately without concrete Y DNA studies.

An overwhelming amount of Arabs have submitted their DNA samples to various databases and they were able to find a confident line of direct descent of a subclade of a haplogroup.

There's also debate about who is a sayyid and who is not, based on conflicting DNA reports.  It may be possible a family is descended from the prophet, but not direct male to male,  consequently disrupting Y DNA signature, there's those who aren't at all Sayyid but claim to be , but instead is a fabrication unbeknownst to them,  then a very very small group of people who don't know they're sayyid, and finally the group who are sayyid and know it.

And then there is applying the Sunni and Shia bucket. 

Unfortunately DNA can only narrow down a tribe/class of people not person by person.

We can only accurately determine who is from Quraysh/Banu Hashimy.

Further subclade tests are being conducted with technology improving to see if they can hone in on specific mutation differences from subtribes, such as Banu Makhdoom, Makhdum,  Hasani or Hosseini in order to make them distinct.

 

Here:

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Qurayishj1c3d/

 

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Qurayishj1c3d/default.aspx?section=yresults

 

Notice how many of these Sayyids go by Sharif instead in the above table.

Below is Iranian samples which most can assume are shia:

 

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Iranian Y-DNA/default.aspx?section=ycolorized

The y DNA haplogroup vary too much for Iran, none of which have the signature of Quraysh, though few of the J1 umbrella type .

From Iraq which who knows who is Sunni or shia:

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Iraq?iframe=yresults

Widely varying results but many more who go by Sayyid with the haplogroup subclade of Quraysh.

The whole which is sayyid aND who isn't  deal needs to be rethought out.

 

Interesting... thanks bro.

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For many days the Mods were editing and removing posts in another topic because @A true Sunni and @shiaman14 were insulting and accusing each other. The same insults and accusations were carried over into this topic. This has got to stop. When the OP is talking about a subject, I don't want to see you two talking about yourselves with pride and putting the other down with disdain, and I don't want to see your friends quoting you and egging you on, to discuss your ethnicity. Everyone is proud of their own ethnicity, so let's not insult each other nor accuse each other. You need to discuss your issues in private or ignore each other.  The last resort is that the two of you, and perhaps others, will be on mod preview.

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