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Abu_Rumaysah

Infallible argue with other infallible.

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as salam alaykum my dear friends, shias and sunnis.

Allama Muhammad Taqi al-Majlisi in his book "Rawdatul Muttaqin" 3/44, said:

357gd21.jpg


و في الصحيح، عن زرارة قال: كنت قاعدا عند أبي جعفر عليه السلام و ليس عنده غير ابنه جعفر عليه السلام فقال: يا زرارة إن أبا ذر و عثمان تنازعا على عهد رسول الله صلى الله عليه و آله و سلم فقال عثمان كل مال من ذهب أو فضة يدار به و يعمل به فيتجر به ففيه الزكاة إذا حال عليه الحول، فقال أبو ذر (أما- خ ل) ما يتجر به أو دير و عمل به فليس فيه زكاة، إنما الزكاة فيه إذا كان ركازا أو كنزا موضوعا، فإذا حال عليه الحول ففيه الزكاة فاختصما في ذلك إلى رسول الله صلى الله عليه و آله و سلم قال فقال: القول ما قاله أبو ذر،
فقال أبو عبد الله عليه السلام لأبيه عليه السلام، ما تريد إلا أن تخرج مثل هذا فيكف الناس أن يعطفوا على فقرائهم و مساكينهم؟
فقال: إليك عني لا أجد منها بدا

[In the Sahih, from Zurarah that he said: I was sitting with abu Ja’far (as) at his place, and there was no one present except his son Ja’far (as), so he said: “O Zurarah, abu Dharr and ‘Uthman disputed during the days of the Prophet (SAWS), ‘Uthman said: All money from gold or silver that the people use and work with in trade, they must pay Zakat for it if one year passes. abu Dharr replied: The money you work with in trade and such then you must not pay Zakat from it, but if it was stored and unused and one year passes then one must pay its Zakat. So they went to the Prophet (SAWS) to solve their dispute and he told them: the saying of abu Dharr is correct.”
abu ‘Abdullah Ja’far (as) said to his father al-Baqir (as): “Why would you bring something like this up? How will the Muslims have kindness and sympathy for the poor and weak among them?”
al-Baqir (as) replied: “Stay away from me, I found it obligatory!”
]

al-Majlisi said in his commentary:

الظاهر أن منازعتهما صلوات الله عليهما كان لإسكات العامة بأن يقولوا إن ابنه نازع معه و لم يقبل منه لأنه ما يقول إلا ما نقل، عن آبائه عن رسول الله صلى الله عليه و آله و سلم عن الله عز و جل. أ.هـ

“What is apparent is that their dispute may peace be upon them was to silence the ‘Amah(Sunnies) so that they may say: He quarreled with him and did not accept from him as he only reports what he heard from his fathers from the Prophet (SAWS) from Allah (swt).”

Remark:

The report says it was only al-Baqir and Zurarah and al-Sadiq in the house, no Sunnies were present so they can silence them, unless they’re taking acting lessons in a theater.

Salam,

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23 minutes ago, Abu_Rumaysah said:

as salam alaykum my dear friends, shias and sunnis.

Allama Muhammad Taqi al-Majlisi in his book "Rawdatul Muttaqin" 3/44, said:

357gd21.jpg


و في الصحيح، عن زرارة قال: كنت قاعدا عند أبي جعفر عليه السلام و ليس عنده غير ابنه جعفر عليه السلام فقال: يا زرارة إن أبا ذر و عثمان تنازعا على عهد رسول الله صلى الله عليه و آله و سلم فقال عثمان كل مال من ذهب أو فضة يدار به و يعمل به فيتجر به ففيه الزكاة إذا حال عليه الحول، فقال أبو ذر (أما- خ ل) ما يتجر به أو دير و عمل به فليس فيه زكاة، إنما الزكاة فيه إذا كان ركازا أو كنزا موضوعا، فإذا حال عليه الحول ففيه الزكاة فاختصما في ذلك إلى رسول الله صلى الله عليه و آله و سلم قال فقال: القول ما قاله أبو ذر،
فقال أبو عبد الله عليه السلام لأبيه عليه السلام، ما تريد إلا أن تخرج مثل هذا فيكف الناس أن يعطفوا على فقرائهم و مساكينهم؟
فقال: إليك عني لا أجد منها بدا

[In the Sahih, from Zurarah that he said: I was sitting with abu Ja’far (as) at his place, and there was no one present except his son Ja’far (as), so he said: “O Zurarah, abu Dharr and ‘Uthman disputed during the days of the Prophet (SAWS), ‘Uthman said: All money from gold or silver that the people use and work with in trade, they must pay Zakat for it if one year passes. abu Dharr replied: The money you work with in trade and such then you must not pay Zakat from it, but if it was stored and unused and one year passes then one must pay its Zakat. So they went to the Prophet (SAWS) to solve their dispute and he told them: the saying of abu Dharr is correct.”
abu ‘Abdullah Ja’far (as) said to his father al-Baqir (as): “Why would you bring something like this up? How will the Muslims have kindness and sympathy for the poor and weak among them?”
al-Baqir (as) replied: “Stay away from me, I found it obligatory!”
]

al-Majlisi said in his commentary:

الظاهر أن منازعتهما صلوات الله عليهما كان لإسكات العامة بأن يقولوا إن ابنه نازع معه و لم يقبل منه لأنه ما يقول إلا ما نقل، عن آبائه عن رسول الله صلى الله عليه و آله و سلم عن الله عز و جل. أ.هـ

“What is apparent is that their dispute may peace be upon them was to silence the ‘Amah(Sunnies) so that they may say: He quarreled with him and did not accept from him as he only reports what he heard from his fathers from the Prophet (SAWS) from Allah (swt).”

Remark:

The report says it was only al-Baqir and Zurarah and al-Sadiq in the house, no Sunnies were present so they can silence them, unless they’re taking acting lessons in a theater.

Salam,

How is this "[In the Sahih, from Zurarah that he said: I was sitting with abu Ja’far (as) at his place, and there was no one present except his son Ja’far (as), so he said: “O Zurarah, abu Dharr and ‘Uthman disputed during the days of the Prophet (SAWS), ‘Uthman said: All money from gold or silver that the people use and work with in trade, they must pay Zakat for it if one year passes. abu Dharr replied: The money you work with in trade and such then you must not pay Zakat from it, but if it was stored and unused and one year passes then one must pay its Zakat. So they went to the Prophet (SAWS) to solve their dispute and he told them: the saying of abu Dharr is correct.”" even remotely related to " abu ‘Abdullah Ja’far (as) said to his father al-Baqir (as): “Why would you bring something like this up? How will the Muslims have kindness and sympathy for the poor and weak among them?”
al-Baqir (as) replied: “Stay away from me, I found it obligatory!”
"

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3 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

How is this "[In the Sahih, from Zurarah that he said: I was sitting with abu Ja’far (as) at his place, and there was no one present except his son Ja’far (as), so he said: “O Zurarah, abu Dharr and ‘Uthman disputed during the days of the Prophet (SAWS), ‘Uthman said: All money from gold or silver that the people use and work with in trade, they must pay Zakat for it if one year passes. abu Dharr replied: The money you work with in trade and such then you must not pay Zakat from it, but if it was stored and unused and one year passes then one must pay its Zakat. So they went to the Prophet (SAWS) to solve their dispute and he told them: the saying of abu Dharr is correct.”" even remotely related to " abu ‘Abdullah Ja’far (as) said to his father al-Baqir (as): “Why would you bring something like this up? How will the Muslims have kindness and sympathy for the poor and weak among them?”
al-Baqir (as) replied: “Stay away from me, I found it obligatory!”
"

. Exactly. 

Edited by Ali al-Abdullah

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I swear these non shias are lucky they have freedom to post whatever they want but if we go to their forums and share certain narrations we are instantly blocked , I'm pretty sure we all unanimously agree that non of these users from other schools of thought that have been active for the past week on Shia chat are actually here to learn , they are just trying to spread their nonsense beliefs and are trying to belittle us by pulling narrations out of nowhere or certain narrations that they clearly don't understand the context of , anyway getting back to the OP what has anything you've presented got anything to do with imam baqir (as) and sadiq (as) discussion? 

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are you saying that they had a discussion about that Hadith/or topic surroundin gzakat, and the two disagreed with each other?  I don't quite follow.

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7 hours ago, rinneganMahdi said:

I swear these non shias are lucky they have freedom to post whatever they want but if we go to their forums and share certain narrations we are instantly blocked , I'm pretty sure we all unanimously agree that non of these users from other schools of thought that have been active for the past week on Shia chat are actually here to learn , they are just trying to spread their nonsense beliefs and are trying to belittle us by pulling narrations out of nowhere or certain narrations that they clearly don't understand the context of , anyway getting back to the OP what has anything you've presented got anything to do with imam baqir (as) and sadiq (as) discussion? 

why dont you reply back to him instead of crying that there are non shias here posting and challenging your belief?

 

8 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

How is this "[In the Sahih, from Zurarah that he said: I was sitting with abu Ja’far (as) at his place, and there was no one present except his son Ja’far (as), so he said: “O Zurarah, abu Dharr and ‘Uthman disputed during the days of the Prophet (SAWS), ‘Uthman said: All money from gold or silver that the people use and work with in trade, they must pay Zakat for it if one year passes. abu Dharr replied: The money you work with in trade and such then you must not pay Zakat from it, but if it was stored and unused and one year passes then one must pay its Zakat. So they went to the Prophet (SAWS) to solve their dispute and he told them: the saying of abu Dharr is correct.”" even remotely related to " abu ‘Abdullah Ja’far (as) said to his father al-Baqir (as): “Why would you bring something like this up? How will the Muslims have kindness and sympathy for the poor and weak among them?”
al-Baqir (as) replied: “Stay away from me, I found it obligatory!”
"

he did post a scan

 

Seems the guy is banned and do hope it was not for this post then again the remark was very rude and filled with hate for the shia. 

Hopefully some knowledgeable users here can check and see if this is sahih and put some light on it. 

Edited by Bint Abbas

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4 hours ago, Bint Abbas said:

why dont you reply back to him instead of crying that there are non shias here posting and challenging your belief?

 

he did post a scan

 

Seems the guy is banned and do hope it was not for this post then again the remark was very rude and filled with hate for the shia. 

Hopefully some knowledgeable users here can check and see if this is sahih and put some light on it. 

Wsalam you're right I just got caught up in emotions , and inshallah someone knowledgeable will reply , Wsalam

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45 minutes ago, rinneganMahdi said:

Wsalam you're right I just got caught up in emotions , and inshallah someone knowledgeable will reply , Wsalam

Assalam.

The answer is very simple if you have the pillar of imamat Aqayed in your mind and your heart.

That's the only thing that our sunnies brother didn't understand and they missed it unknowingly or knowingly, and that's the reason we're SHIA.

Wassalam.

Edited by Haimi

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On 10/09/2016 at 8:31 AM, Abu_Rumaysah said:

as salam alaykum my dear friends, shias and sunnis.

Allama Muhammad Taqi al-Majlisi in his book "Rawdatul Muttaqin" 3/44, said:

357gd21.jpg


و في الصحيح، عن زرارة قال: كنت قاعدا عند أبي جعفر عليه السلام و ليس عنده غير ابنه جعفر عليه السلام فقال: يا زرارة إن أبا ذر و عثمان تنازعا على عهد رسول الله صلى الله عليه و آله و سلم فقال عثمان كل مال من ذهب أو فضة يدار به و يعمل به فيتجر به ففيه الزكاة إذا حال عليه الحول، فقال أبو ذر (أما- خ ل) ما يتجر به أو دير و عمل به فليس فيه زكاة، إنما الزكاة فيه إذا كان ركازا أو كنزا موضوعا، فإذا حال عليه الحول ففيه الزكاة فاختصما في ذلك إلى رسول الله صلى الله عليه و آله و سلم قال فقال: القول ما قاله أبو ذر،
فقال أبو عبد الله عليه السلام لأبيه عليه السلام، ما تريد إلا أن تخرج مثل هذا فيكف الناس أن يعطفوا على فقرائهم و مساكينهم؟
فقال: إليك عني لا أجد منها بدا

[In the Sahih, from Zurarah that he said: I was sitting with abu Ja’far (as) at his place, and there was no one present except his son Ja’far (as), so he said: “O Zurarah, abu Dharr and ‘Uthman disputed during the days of the Prophet (SAWS), ‘Uthman said: All money from gold or silver that the people use and work with in trade, they must pay Zakat for it if one year passes. abu Dharr replied: The money you work with in trade and such then you must not pay Zakat from it, but if it was stored and unused and one year passes then one must pay its Zakat. So they went to the Prophet (SAWS) to solve their dispute and he told them: the saying of abu Dharr is correct.”
abu ‘Abdullah Ja’far (as) said to his father al-Baqir (as): “Why would you bring something like this up? How will the Muslims have kindness and sympathy for the poor and weak among them?”
al-Baqir (as) replied: “Stay away from me, I found it obligatory!”
]

al-Majlisi said in his commentary:

الظاهر أن منازعتهما صلوات الله عليهما كان لإسكات العامة بأن يقولوا إن ابنه نازع معه و لم يقبل منه لأنه ما يقول إلا ما نقل، عن آبائه عن رسول الله صلى الله عليه و آله و سلم عن الله عز و جل. أ.هـ

“What is apparent is that their dispute may peace be upon them was to silence the ‘Amah(Sunnies) so that they may say: He quarreled with him and did not accept from him as he only reports what he heard from his fathers from the Prophet (SAWS) from Allah (swt).”

Remark:

The report says it was only al-Baqir and Zurarah and al-Sadiq in the house, no Sunnies were present so they can silence them, unless they’re taking acting lessons in a theater.

Salam,

This is a good question however since you are addressing an audience with English as its standard international language, it becomes difficult to refer to actual source(s) and read the context of the said narrations in detail. Muhammad Taqi Al-Majlisi's books have been difficult to find online (especially English versions) so I tried to find this particular narration in ManLa Yadharul Faqih in the entire chapter of Zakaat but in vain. I'll see if I can find it elsewhere in an English (or Urdu) book. If you can assist in this regard, I would really appreciate it. 

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Example :

Some kid named ¨john¨

Scenario :  John ´s parents and grandparents saying   to John that  he  is   ¨40%infallible¨  since childhood...

just imagine what will  the thought process,emotions,sentiments will be going on in his mind from his childhood to adulthood....

-------------

Now

imagine this...

What about ¨another Guy¨ whose Parents and grandparents tell him that he is 100%infallible...

:)

 

Edited by reasoner
edited words

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On 9/11/2016 at 4:53 PM, Abbas. said:

This is a good question however since you are addressing an audience with English as its standard international language, it becomes difficult to refer to actual source(s) and read the context of the said narrations in detail. Muhammad Taqi Al-Majlisi's books have been difficult to find online (especially English versions) so I tried to find this particular narration in ManLa Yadharul Faqih in the entire chapter of Zakaat but in vain. I'll see if I can find it elsewhere in an English (or Urdu) book. If you can assist in this regard, I would really appreciate it. 

Salam aleikum,

I dont know if you can find it in english books but this narration is also present in Hurr al Amili's Wasail as Shia and in Tusi's al Istibsaar.

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16 minutes ago, skamran110 said:

Can you please provide the references including Volume no, book no, page no,?

وسائل الشيعة ؛ ج‏9 ؛ ص74

It's the answer, one of them at least, didn't want to answer the sunny guy tbh, but I see you really like to know it.

After 10 years at jest of studying in hawza, you get to the next level called: درس خارج or الدرس الخارج

It's there when you learn how to debate especially with your mentor while at least 100 other scholars can attack you with their opinions.

You can use Google translate to translate short sentences and get the answer.

مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الْحَسَنِ بِإِسْنَادِهِ عَنْ سَعْدِ بْنِ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنِ الْحُسَيْنِ بْنِ سَعِيدٍ عَنْ حَمَّادِ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنْ عُمَرَ بْنِ أُذَيْنَةَ عَنْ زُرَارَةَ قَالَ: كُنْتُ‏ قَاعِداً عِنْدَ أَبِي جَعْفَرٍ ع وَ لَيْسَ عِنْدَهُ غَيْرُ ابْنِهِ جَعْفَرٍ ع- فَقَالَ يَا زُرَارَةُ إِنَّ أَبَا ذَرٍّ وَ عُثْمَانَ- تَنَازَعَا عَلَى عَهْدِ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ص- فَقَالَ عُثْمَانُ كُلُّ مَالٍ مِنْ ذَهَبٍ أَوْ فِضَّةٍ يُدَارُ وَ يُعْمَلُ بِهِ وَ يُتَّجَرُ بِهِ فَفِيهِ الزَّكَاةُ إِذَا حَالَ عَلَيْهِ الْحَوْلُ فَقَالَ أَبُو ذَرٍّ أَمَّا مَا يُتَّجَرُ بِهِ أَوْ دِيرَ وَ عُمِلَ بِهِ فَلَيْسَ فِيهِ زَكَاةٌ إِنَّمَا الزَّكَاةُ فِيهِ إِذَا كَانَ رِكَازاً كَنْزاً مَوْضُوعاً فَإِذَا حَالَ عَلَيْهِ الْحَوْلُ فَفِيهِ الزَّكَاةُ فَاخْتَصَمَا فِي ذَلِكَ إِلَى رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ص قَالَ فَقَالَ الْقَوْلُ مَا قَالَ أَبُو ذَرٍّ- فَقَالَ أَبُو عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع لِأَبِيهِ مَا تُرِيدُ إِلَّا أَنْ يَخْرُجَ مِثْلُ هَذَا فَيَكُفَ‏ النَّاسَ أَنْ يُعْطُوا فُقَرَاءَهُمْ وَ مَسَاكِينَهُمْ فَقَالَ أَبُوهُ إِلَيْكَ عَنِّي لَا أَجِدُ مِنْهَا بُدّاً.[3]

در انتهاء این حدیث امام صادق علیه السلام به حالت اعتراض به امام باقر علیه السلام می فرمایند: این مطلبی که شما می فرمایید سبب می شود این سنت حسنه نسبت به فقراء و مساکین صورت نگیرد و مردم از این عادت خوب، دست بردارند یعنی حضرت می فرمایند: این مطلبی که شما می فرمایید سبب می شود که هم مردم از یک ثوابی محروم شوند و هم فقراء و مساکین در زندگیشان سختی بکشند.

پس از این روایت برداشت می شود که گاهی اوقات، ابراز بعضی از مستحبات با قطع نظر از جهات خارجی، خلاف تکمیل مردم است کما اینکه در فرض روایت نیز همینطور است و در این موارد هر چه استحباب مستحب مخفی بماند به نفع است الا اینکه در روایت حضرت فرمودند: محذوری وجود دارد که باید این حکم را ابراز کنند.

در مال التجاره اختلاف وجود دارد که یا زکات بر مال التجارة واجب است یا خیر؟ مال التجاره گاهی اینگونه است که شخص آنرا نگاه می دارد تا قیمتها بالا برود و آنرا بفروشد که این نوعی احتکار است ولی حرام نیست ولی گاهی شخص با مال التجارة کار می کند و با آن خرید و فروش می کند و آنرا انبار نمی کند.

در قسم اول، جماعتی از امامیه قائلند به اینکه زکات با شرائطی واجب است و جمهور عامه نیز قائل به این مطلب هستند اما در قسم دوم، مختار امامیه این است که زکات واجب نیست.

پس در نتیجه مال التجاره مثل نقدین است که اگر ثابت بماند و سال بر آن بگذرد زکات بر آن واجب است ولی اگر با آن کار شود زکات در آن واجب نیست.

پس اموال به سه قسم تقسیم می شود:

قسم اول نقود مجمَّد است که در آنها زکات واجب است.

قسم دوم نقود متحرک است که زکات در آنها واجب نیست ولی عامه می گویند که در این مورد نیز زکات واجب است مگر جماعتی از ظاهریه که می گویند زکات ندارد و تقریبا مورد روایت بالا نیز همین مورد است.

قسم سوم اموال غیر نقود است که مجمد است و آنرا به خاطر استرباح، احتکار کرده اند که در این قسم نیز مشهور امامیه می گویند زکات ندارد ولی جمعی از علماء متقدم قائل به وجوب زکات در این قسم بودند.

در حدیث شریفی که بیان شد، امام علیه السلام در حقیقت در مقام تعلیم زراره بوده اند و می خواستند حکم کلی را به او یاد بدهند و می خواستند به او یاد بدهند که عامه اشتباه کرده اند.

امام صادق علیه السلام نیز به خاطر تنبیه و آگاهی دادن به زراره، به پدرشان فرمودند: این مطلب را اگر مردم بفهمند دیگر به فقراء کمک نمی کنند یعنی می خواستند به زراره بفهمانند الان که حکم برایت واضح شد ولی آنرا در میان مردم شائع نکن تا مردم از این فیض محروم نشوند.

جهت دیگر این است که زراره همانطور که سابقا بیان کردیم، یک مقداری فکر عامی در ذهن او بوده و امام علیه السلام می خواسته اند که او را تفقیه کنند و تعلیم دهند پس طبعا باید حکم را برای او به صورت روشنی ابراز کنند.

علاوه بر مطالب قبل، امام علیه السلام می خواستند ساحت ابوذر را نیز تبرئه کنند زیرا ایشان در زمان عثمان به جهت بعضی از مسائل مادی با عثمان درگیری پیدا کرد و او در بین مردم به بعضی از مسائل متهم شد لذا حضرت می خواستند بفرمایند که در این مورد ابوذر به نفع اغنیاء حکم کرده است و آن تهمتی که به ایشان زده شده، صحیح نیست.

در حقیقت طبع عادی مطلب این است که اگر مردم متوجه شوند که یک حکمی مستحب یا مکروه است، اکثرا آنرا انجام نمی دهند یا ترک نمی کنند و این خلاف رشد و تربیت آنان است فلذا ائمه علیهم السلام گاهی آنرا به صورت واجب یا حرام بیان می کرده اند.

Wassalam.

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