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submitter71

Who Preserved the Quran?

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Salam everybody.

There is no doubt among all of us that Ali (as) played a major role in teaching the people how to recite the Quran.

To Sunnis, it is known that the recitation of Hafs is taken from Ali's (as) recitation, but it is strange to find that Al Khoei rejects this and weakens the recitation of Hafs as incorrect, even though it is recited by most Muslims today. He also says the same about the recitation of Hamza, who took his recitation from Jafar Al Sadiq. 

There should be little doubt that Uthman (ra) in his era ordered the collection of the Quran in one book and for it to be written in the tongue of Quraish. That is why everyone, Muslims and non-Muslims, describe the handwriting as the Uthmani khatt. 

It is strange though that Shias have different explanations of what exactly happened. Some say Ali (as) collected the Quran during the time of the Prophet salalahu alaihi wa salam. Some said he collected it after the Prophet's salalahu alaihi wa salam death. Some say that Ali (as) showed a copy of his Quran to the companions, but they rejected it.

The three opinions about are all Shia opinions and I believe are not thought out properly. This is why I would like to discuss these views with my Shia brothers, since they are not aware that Uthman (ra) played a vital role in preserving the Quran.

I expect this to be a serious discussing so I hope that there will be no taunting in this thread. 

I also expect my Shia brothers to share their view about the Quran by telling us who collected it and when. Please present evidences, as usual. I am not interested in random opinions that are based on whims. No offense.  

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Prophet (pbuh) himself made arrangements for collection of Quran during his life time. Quran says:-

This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah - (Quran 2:2)

If there was no book during lifetime of Prophet (pbuh) then what is the purpose of this verse? What answer we can give to this verse of Holy Quran? "this is the book about which there is no doubt" but "where is the book????

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44 minutes ago, Aabiss_Shakari said:

Prophet (pbuh) himself made arrangements for collection of Quran during his life time. Quran says:-

This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah - (Quran 2:2)

If there was no book during lifetime of Prophet (pbuh) then what is the purpose of this verse? What answer we can give to this verse of Holy Quran? "this is the book about which there is no doubt" but "where is the book????

 

This is not a good argument brother because the definition of the term "book" has changed since those times. 

I am sure you are familiar with the Tragedy of Thursday hadith.

The Prophet salalahu alaihi wa salam said:

 ائتوني بكتاب أكتب لكم كتابا

"Bring me a piece of paper so that I can write for you a statement."

According to the common understanding of the term "Kitab" today, we would understand the hadith as "Bring me a book so that I could write for you a book," which makes no sense.

(I am sure every Shia reading this will want to change the topic to Tragedy of Thursday now. If you want to, then please do that in another thread.)

 

So the reference to the Quran as a Kitab does not mean that it was compiled as a whole book during the time of the Prophet salalahu alaihi wa salam.

 

Shia Quran scholar Mohammed Hafi Marifa in Al Tamheed volume 1 page 289 says about this theory, "There is no historical evidence for this claim." 

 

Also, this view is simply illogical, because the Quran kept on getting revealed and verse were put in an order that is not the same as the order of revelation. This would be possible to do on Microsoft Word, but it is extremely not practical for it to be done in the seventh century AD.

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It is our belief the Quran as compiled at the time of the Prophet SAW. 

As already mentioned, the Quran confirms this. Another mutawatir hadith is that of ghadir, "I leave you two things, the book of Allah and my household" etc

وَأَنَا تَارِكٌ فِيكُمْ ثَقَلَيْنِ أَوَّلُهُمَا كِتَابُ اللَّهِ فِيهِ الْهُدَى وَالنُّورُ فَخُذُوا بِكِتَابِ اللَّهِ وَاسْتَمْسِكُوا بِهِ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ فَحَثَّ عَلَى كِتَابِ اللَّهِ وَرَغَّبَ فِيهِ ثُمَّ قَالَ ‏"‏ وَأَهْلُ بَيْتِي أُذَكِّرُكُمُ اللَّهَ فِي أَهْلِ بَيْتِي أُذَكِّرُكُمُ اللَّهَ فِي أَهْلِ بَيْتِي أُذَكِّرُكُمُ اللَّهَ فِي أَهْلِ بَيْتِي

Reference  : Sahih Muslim 2408 a
In-book reference  : Book 44, Hadith 55
USC-MSA web (English) reference  : Book 31, Hadith 5920

 

We take the apparent meaning of this and do not make assumptions on it without any daleel. 

 

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Very good question, brother submitter. 

 

Allamah Sayyid Muhammad Husayn at-Tabataba'i said in his book “Quran in islam” chp 5, bab “After the Death of the Prophet” said:

Just about a year after the death of the Prophet, the war of Yamamah took place in which seventy of the reciters were killed and the Caliphs conceived the idea of collecting the different chapters and verses into one volume. They feared that should a future battle take place and the rest of the qurra ‘ be killed, the whole Qur’an would disappear with them.
Thus, on the orders of the Caliph, a group of the qurra’ from amongst the companions including Zayd ibn Thabit, collected the chapters and verses (written on tablets, bones and date palm fronds and kept in the Prophet’s house or the houses of reciters), and produced several hand-written copies of the complete Book. They then sent copies of this compilation to all areas of the Muslim domain.
After a time, during the rule of the third Caliph, it came to the attention of the Caliph himself that differences and inconsistencies were appearing in the copying down of the Qur’an; some calligraphers lacked precision in their writing and some reciters were not accurate in their recitation.
Since the word of God seemed threatened with alteration, the Caliph ordered that five of the qurra’ from amongst the companions, (one of them being Zayd ibn Thabit who had compiled the first volume), produce other copies from the first volume which had been prepared on the orders of the first Caliph and which had been kept with Hafsah, the wife of the Prophet and daughter of the second Caliph.
The other copies, already in the hands of Muslims in other areas, were collected and sent to Medina where, on orders of the Caliph, they were burnt (or, according to some historians, were destroyed by boiling). Thus several copies were made, one being kept in Medina, one in Mecca, and one each sent to Sham (a territory now divided into Syria, Lebanon, Palestine and Jordan), Kufa and Basra.
It is said that beside these five, one copy was also sent to Yemen and one to Bahran. These copies were called the Imam copies and served as original for all future copies. The only difference of order between these copies and the first volume was that the chapters “Spirits of War” and “Immun- ity” were written in one place between “The Heights” and “Jonah.”

 

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Allama as-Suyuti in his brilliant book“Itqan fi ulumil Quran”, chapter 18, said:

وأخرج ابن أبي داود في المصاحف بسند حسن عن عبد خير قال‏:‏ سمعت علياً يقول‏:‏ أعظم الناس في المصاحف أجراً أبو بكر رحمة الله على أبو بكر هوأول من جمع كتاب الله‏.‏

لكن أخرج أيضاً من طريق ابن سيرين قال‏:‏ قال علي‏:‏ لما مات رسول الله صلى اله عليه وسلم آليت أن لآخذ على ردائي إلا لصلاة جمعة حتى أجمع القرآن فجمعته‏.‏

قال ابن حجر‏:‏ هذا الأثر ضعيف لانقطاعه وبتقدير صحته فمراده بجمعه حفظه في صدره وما تقدم من رواية عبد خير عنه صح فهوالمعتمد‏.‏

And ibn Abu Dawud reported in his (book) “al-Maskahif” via good chain from Abdulhayr: I heard Ali said: “Greatest reward in (serving) to Muskhaf belongs to Abu Bakr. May mercy of Allah be upon Abu Bakr. He was first who gathered Quran”.

But it was also reported from ibn Sirin: Ali said: When prophet (sallalahu  alaihi wa ala alihi wa sallam) died I put on my jubba, and promised that I wouldn’t leave my home except for friday prayers, untill I would gather Quran, and I gathered it in this way”.

Ibn Hajar said: This athar (from ibn Sirin) is weak due to disconnection (in the chain), and even if we accept it as authentic, then under gathering (Quran) we understand him learning it by heart (in complete form)”. And what was presented before from narration of Abdulhayr is more authentic and to be rely on.

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8 hours ago, iraqi_shia said:

We take the apparent meaning of this and do not make assumptions on it without any daleel. 

 

The apparent meaning is not "book", my brother. Please read my previous post. I have given you my daleel. It is supported by Mohammed Hafi Marifah too. 

 

I am surprised by the lack of Shias participating in this thread. It is probably the most important thread in this section of the forums at the moment.

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My respected brother how can they participate?

They can't digest fact that in accordance to their sect, all people who gathered Quran in one book, and passed it to the further coming generations are disbelievers in their view.

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السلام عليكم
بسم الله الرحمن الرحبم

This will just be a quick explanation as to why this is a pointless thread, I am going to write this without going into much depth of the individual points I bring up. If you want to seriously argue that it was indeed ʿUṯmān who was without a doubt the one to collect to codex of the Ḳurʾān between our hands today, then you'd really need to demonstrate a very good argument for this. Based off of the very contradictory traditions we get a picture that everyone was من جمع القرآن or أول من جمع القرآن, ranging from the Prophet (ṣaʿw) to Salmān ʾal-Fārisī (ref. letter of Pseudo-Leo dated to end of 7th century (being the earliest historical mention of who collected the Ḳurʾān), he (allegedly) did this along with ʾImām ʿAlī and ʿUmar b. ʾal-Ḫaṭṭāb). There need to be a number of preliminaries addressed here first, starting first and foremost with the method of historiography which will ultimately be how this historical discussion is approached and how the texts are examined, as this is not just some mere polemic. Unfortunately this discussion isn't being taken seriously by the people leading it or those responding and as such it's going to be ultimately fruitless. You're better off not wasting your time.

والسلام

Edited by Ibn Al-Ja'abi

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1 hour ago, Abu_Rumaysah said:

My respected brother how can they participate?

They can't digest fact that in accordance to their sect, all people who gathered Quran in one book, and passed it to the further coming generations are disbelievers in their view.

You do realize that all Caliph Uthman allegedly did is compile the surahs from longest to shortest. He didn't receive any revelation and if he knew what he was doing, he would have organized the Quran in order of revelation.

What I can't digest is that despite the fact that the Quran calls itself a book, the Prophet saying he is leaving behind a book and Caliph Umar stating the Book of Allah is enough, you guys are adamant that Caliph Uthman compiled the Quran.

Like I said in the other thread, you lack the necessary skillset to get into the details and intricacies of things. You simply read something and immediately get ready to argue for it without realizing how much of a fool it makes you look.

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20 hours ago, submitter71 said:

The apparent meaning is not "book", my brother. Please read my previous post. I have given you my daleel. It is supported by Mohammed Hafi Marifah too. 

 

I am surprised by the lack of Shias participating in this thread. It is probably the most important thread in this section of the forums at the moment.

 

The apparent meaning is book. You have not accepted that, that is up to you. Even in your own example, it can be seen that the Prophet SAW wanted to write something, and this collection of writing he called a book. Obviously it is not the same as today, in the sense it may look different and the materials used are completely different, however its still a collection of writing.

I think your digging a hole for yourself on this topic. Our view is not only more logical, its a lot easier to accept.

The sunni view is that the quran was revealed, then several different people complied it (orally) into 7 different versions. Then you have to try and explain why there are 7 different versions and that even though they are different, they are all "correct". Then the most comical part of that saga is that the two most famous of the 7 versions are mostly narrated by shias. Shias who in your books of rijal it says dont take their hadith, but we have taken the entire quran from them !

Our view is that there is one quran and that it was checked and perfected by the Ma'soom prophet SAW and therefore protected from mistakes by people writing or forgetting.

 

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Having read many of the hadiths and other sources it is obvious that Sunnis claims are an exaggeration and have no support at all from the authoritative hadiths. In fact, the hadiths record the opposite. Anyhow, I have listed some ayats of the Quran were Allah (swt) keeps on referring the Quran as a book… why?

"Those related by blood are nearer to one another in the book of God." (8:75)

"Our Lord, do Thou send among them a messenger, one of them, who shall recite to them Thy Signs, and teach them the book and the wisdom, and purify them." (2: 129)

"True piety is this: to believe in God, and the Prophets, the angels, the book, and the Prophets..." (2:173)

"...And remember God's blessing upon you, and the book and the wisdom He has sent down on you to admonish you.” (2:231)

"Said he who possessed knowledge of the book,” (27:40).

Say: 'God suffices a witness between me and you, and whosoever possesses knowledge of the book." (13:40)

No creature is there crawling on the earth, no bird flying with its wings, but they are nations like unto yourselves. We have neglected nothing in the Book, “(6: 38)

"And everything we have numbered in a Book.” (78: 29)

"No city is there, but we shall destroy it before the Day of Resurrection, or we shall chastise it with a terrible chastisement,' that is in the Book inscribed."(17:58)

"God it is who has sent down the Book with the Truth, and also the Balance.” (42: 17)

"By the Clear Book, behold, we have made it an Arabic Qur'an; haply you will understand ;"( 43:12)

“That is the Book, wherein is no doubt, “(2: 2)

[16:89] The day will come when we will raise from every community a witness from among them, and bring you as the witness of these people. We have revealed to you this book to provide explanations for everything, and guidance, and mercy, and good news for the submitters.

 

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Who preserved the Quran?

If any shia say that  Ali or the Imams preserved the Quran, the Sunni will be quick to declare kufr upon us and say that Allah himself has guaranteed the protection of the Quran.

إِنَّهُ لَقُرْآنٌ كَرِيمٌ {77}
فِي كِتَابٍ مَكْنُونٍ {78}

[Shakir 56:77] Most surely it is an honored Quran,
[Shakir 56:78] In a book that is protected

So when @submitter71 poses this questions and @Abu_Rumaysah confirms that Uthman preserved the Quran, are they not in fact committing kufr?

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21 hours ago, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

Unfortunately this discussion isn't being taken seriously by the people leading it or those responding and as such it's going to be ultimately fruitless.

Why are you making this assumption? I am very serious.

 

5 hours ago, iraqi_shia said:

The apparent meaning is book.

2 hours ago, power said:

 Anyhow, I have listed some ayats of the Quran were Allah (swt) keeps on referring the Quran as a book… why?

Naser Makarim Shirazi volume 1 page 72: “The usage of this word (Kitab) doesn’t necessitate that it was fully written, because the name Quran is for used for this book in a full and partial form. Also, a Kitab can more something more general to include what has not yet been written when it was referred to as a Kitab. We read: “(It is) a Book We have revealed to you abounding in good that they may ponder over its verses.” There is no doubt that the Quran was not a book that was documented among people before it was revealed. There is another possible meaning, which is that this is referring to the book in the Preserved Tablet.”

Looks like Naser Makarim Shirazi is not taking the apparent meaning.

I have done some more research to confirm that according to Shia scholars the Quran was not compiled during the Prophet's salalahu alaihi wa salam time. 

 

1- Mohammed Hafi Marifa in Al Tamheed volume 1 page 289 says about the theory that the Quran was collected during the time of the Prophet salalahu alaihi wa salam, "There is no historical evidence for this claim.

2- Al Tabtabai said in Tafseer Al Mizan volume 12 page 124: “Secondly, the order of the chapters are from the companions in the first compilation and second compilation, and the evidence is the narration about Uthman putting Al Anfal and Bara’a between Al Aaraf and Yunus, which were put earlier in the first compilation.”

3- Murtada Askari in Al Quran Al Kareem wa Riwayat Al Madrasatain volume 2 page 658: “The Messenger salalahu alaihi wa aalih told his cousin Ali to not wear his cloak until he has collected the Quran that was in his house, which was written on papyrus, wood, leather, and other things, and along the verses that were revealed to the Messenger salalahu alaihi wa aalih were meanings which the Messenger salalahu alaihi wa aalih had dictated. So after collecting it, he brought it to the mosque with his servant Qanbar. They said: Return it, we do not need it. So he returned it.”

4- Abd Al Hadi Al Fadli in Al Qiraat Al Quraniya page 126 when speaking about the authentic recitations of the Quran, he said that one of the conditions are that the recitation fits the drawing of the letters. He explains, “The meaning of reciting according to the drawing: Is that it is matching to what was written in the Masahif Al Aima (main Qurans) in the time of Uthman, according to his orders.”

5- Mohammed Al Jalali in Dirasat Hawl Al Quran Al Kareem said on page 146: “Uthman told them to write the Quran in the way of Quraish and this is what happened with the word Taboot and Taboo, due to the difference between Quraish and the Ansar in how the Quran is written, and not in recitation.”  


I am hoping that the brothers in this thread will be a bit more open minded now about the Quran not being collected during the time of the Prophet salalahu alaihi wa salam. I am very well aware that the above five quotes don't always agree on who compiled the Quran or what his role was, but I quote this to show that some of the top Shia Quran scholars did not hold the opinion that the Quran that we have today is based upon a collection by the Prophet salalahu alaihi wa salam. 

Inshallah in my next post I will be discussing with brothers that wish to participate what Uthman's (ra) role was. 

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3 hours ago, submitter71 said:

Why are you making this assumption? I am very serious.

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
السلام عليكم

There's no need to be coy. You are here to do a polemic with a very serious historical discussion. You have come to discuss with people you know will (generally) not be able to properly engage with this subject matter. You have come to argue your position dogmatically and not with sincerity. You have come with a list of ready quotations you can provide to the responses you expect to receive (by the way, it's Hādī Maʿrifaḧ, not Hāfī Maʿrifaḧ, you might want to edit whatever list of quotations you're copy-pasting from). I'm sorry, but you're just not a sincere individual, you're a polemicist and you're very transparent.

والسلام

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9 hours ago, submitter71 said:

Naser Makarim Shirazi volume 1 page 72: “The usage of this word (Kitab) doesn’t necessitate that it was fully written, because the name Quran is for used for this book in a full and partial form. Also, a Kitab can more something more general to include what has not yet been written when it was referred to as a Kitab. We read: “(It is) a Book We have revealed to you abounding in good that they may ponder over its verses.” There is no doubt that the Quran was not a book that was documented among people before it was revealed. There is another possible meaning, which is that this is referring to the book in the Preserved Tablet.”
 

 

I think your confusing quran, which means the recited and kitab which is a collection of writing. 

Your own quote confirms that the Quran was written and compiled at the time of the Prophet SAW

 

3- Murtada Askari in Al Quran Al Kareem wa Riwayat Al Madrasatain volume 2 page 658: “The Messenger salalahu alaihi wa aalih told his cousin Ali to not wear his cloak until he has collected the Quran that was in his house, which was written on papyrus, wood, leather, and other things, and along the verses that were revealed to the Messenger salalahu alaihi wa aalih were meanings which the Messenger salalahu alaihi wa aalih had dictated. So after collecting it, he brought it to the mosque with his servant Qanbar. They said: Return it, we do not need it. So he returned it.”

As for your attempt to prove your theory from Islamic sources, it has failed miserably. I noted that you have dodged perhaps the most complete work on this subject which is by Ayatollah Khui, Al-Bayan Fi Tafsir al-Quran. You would be best to read that short book before even writing a single letter on this topic. 

I also noted the complete dodge of problems of your position. Which of the seven haroof are correct, or are they all correct? Good luck with trying to solve that problem.

 

 

 

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Salam Alykom!

According to the history of the compilation of the Quran, the Prophet (s) himself chose the verses where to be placed. It was not the companions who arranged the verses or the number of the chapters. The Quran, which is presently in our hands and which is available to every Muslim, is the same Quran which was collected and compiled during the period of Uthman. Given that a group of reciters and memorizers of the Holy Quran were cooperating in the compilation of the Quran, we cannot say that the Quranic verses were arranged by the order and according to the liking and desire of Uthman. In addition, there are many traditions from the infallible Imams (a.s.) which denote that they sanctioned and approved the compilation of the verses during Uthman’s era.

 

The compilation of the Holy Qur’an took place in three stages:

1. Arrangement of verses which led to formation of the chapters. This was done during the period of the Holy Prophet (s). It was the Prophet himself who would indicate in which Surahs each verse was to be placed.

2. Collections of the Quran and separate pages (or parchments) and putting them together in the form of a single volume. This was done during during the period of Abu Bakr.

3. Collection of different copies of the Quran which had been written down by scribes and making them look the same in order to prevent variation in the copies. This was done during the period of Uthman, the third caliph.[1]

Explanation:

There is ample evidence showing that the entire Qur’an was written down in the Prophets (s) lifetime. Based on historical reports, when he (s) received revelation he would instruct scribes to record the revelation on parchments of paper or pieces of leather. He would also indicate in which Surah each ayah was to be placed. The Companions never interfered in the arrangement of the ayahs and Surahs which are the same in copies of Qurans available today. 

Following the demise of the Holy Prophet (s), the compilation of the Holy Quran took place by the order of the first caliph with the help of Zaid bin Thabit. Before him also, the Commander of the Faithful, Ali (a.s.) who was more acquainted with the Quran than all other Companions had compiled the Quran. Indeed, in the wake of the Islamic conquests and the growing trend to convert to Islam in the second and third Islamic centuries, there were more and more people to write the Quran and make copies of it.  Every individual who had the ability to write embarked on writing the Quran from the famous copies available to them.  There are some reports in the historical sources which indicate that there were discrepancies among Muslims concerning the recitation of the Quran. These discrepancies led some Muslims to look for some solution.[2]

 The suggestion to make standard reference of the Holy Quran was put forth by Hudaifah to Uthman. The latter called on the Companions who all agreed to the proposal and promised to cooperated in this regard. Uthman then chose a committee of four people: Zayd ibn Thabit, 'Abdullah ibn az-Zubayr, Sa'id ibn al-'As and 'Abd al-Qays to carry out designated task. Later on more people joined them and their number reached up to twelve. Uthman commanded them to write the Quran in the language of Quraish because it had been revealed in that language.

The standard reference team was established in the year 25 of Hegira year, and the first action taken by them by the order of Uthman was to collect the various copies of the Quran from all parts of the expansive Islamic country.

At this stage, different and various copies of the Quran were collected and sent to Medina and they were burnt or dumped into boiling water at the behest of the third caliph. For this reason, Uthman was also called Harraq al-Masahef [Burner of Scriptures].  The last stage involved sending newly written standard copies of the Quran out to other cities along with a reciter to recite the Quran with correct pronunciation to people. This was also done by the third caliph. [3]

Historians are not unanimous about the number of the copies of the Quran provided and sent out to different parts of the Islamic country. Ibn Abi Dawood says that there were six copies of the Quran sent to Makkah, Kufa, Basra, Syria, Bahrain and Yemen. One copy of the Book which was called Umm (mother) or Imam (master) was kept in Medina. Another historian named Ya’qubi adds another two volumes to it saying that one copy of the Quran was sent to Egypt and another to Al-Jazirah. The copies which were sent to various regions were kept therein and they were used as standard references to make more and more copies available to people using them.[4]

The sequence and order of Uthman’s scripture was the same order that exist with the present available copy of the Quran. It matched with the order that had been applied to scriptures of the companions especially Ubai bin Ka’b. It should be noted that during the early period of Islam and in the time of the caliphs, the Quran manuscripts had no sign of punctuation because using punctuations was not common at that time[5].

Shiites agree unanimously that the Quran which is available in every Muslim’s house is the same complete Quran and Uthman’s scripture (mushaf) is that which is in our hand; it is free from any alterations or distortions. Although the Quran which had been compiled by Imam Ali (a.s) was arranged on the basis of the order of the revelation of the chapters, since the present Quran has been approved and sanctioned by the Infallible Imams (a.s.), there is no need to print the Quran on the basis of the order of revelation, even if it may not be bid’ah (innovation); because bi’ah means adding to the religion what is not a part of it. Bid’ah in this sense is forbidden as also stated by the Imams, peace be upon them.

A man who was in the company of Imam Sadiq, peace be upon him, recited a letter from the Quranic verse differently from what people used to recite normally. The Imam hearing that said: “Do not recite this letter in that way; recite it in the way other people recite it.”[6]

The Commander of the Faithful, Ali (a.s.) expressed his consent somehow with unification of the scriptures. Ibn-e Abi Dawood narrates from Suwaid bin Ghaflah that Ali, peace be upon him, said: “By Allah, Uthman did not do anything about Mushaf except after seeking my advice.”[7]

In another narration, Imam Ali (a.s) has been narrated as having said: “If I were in command in place of Uthman, I would have done the same".[8]

The concluding point to mention here is that according to the history of the compilation of the Quran, the Prophet (s) himself chose the verses where to be placed. It was not the companions who arranged the verses or the number of the chapters. The Quran, which is presently in our hands and which is available to every Muslim, is the same Quran which was collected and compiled during the period of Uthman. Given that a group of reciters and memorizers of the Holy Quran were cooperating in the compilation of the Quran, we cannot say that the Quranic verses were arranged by the order and according to the liking and desire of Uthman. In addition, there are many traditions from the infallible Imams (a.s.) which denote that they sanctioned and approved the compilation of the verses during Uthman’s era.

 


[1] - Shakerin, Hamid Reza, Understanding the Quran, pg. 19, Maaref Publication, 7th edition, 1386 (2007).

[2] - Lessons from the Quran, Hussein, Jawan Arasteh, pg. 198, Islamic Propagations Office Publications, Qom, 3rd edition, 1378 (1999).

[3] - Ibid, 203.

[4] - Amuzesh Uloom Quran, translation of Al-Tamhid fi Uloom al-Quran, Muhammad Hadi Ma’arefat, translated by Abu Muhammad Wakili, vol.1, pg. 425, Islamic Propagations Organizations Printing and Publication House, Qom, 1st edition, 1371 (1992).

[5] - Ibid, vol.1, pg. 433.

[6] - Ibid, vol.1, pg. 416.

[7] - Al-Itqan fi Uloom al-Quran, Jalaluddin Suyuti, vol.1, pg. 170, Asriyah Publications, Beirut, 1408 A.H.

[8] - Muhammad bin Mahmood better known as Ibn Jazri, Al-Nashr fil Qira’at al-‘Ashr, vol.1, pg. 8, Darul Kutub al-Ilmiyah Publications, Beirut.

http://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/question/fa5375

http://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/question/fa1632

 

And God knows best
Wsalam

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8 hours ago, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

You are here to do a polemic with a very serious historical discussion. You have come to discuss with people you know will (generally) not be able to properly engage with this subject matter.

 

I don't see how engaging in polemics makes me not serious. I am sincere in wanting to spread guidance to Shias in a topic I really care about. My intention is not to score points, if that is what you mean.

If the average Shiachat member cannot properly engage, then maybe more advanced members like yourself can instead. 

Please do not assume that I copy and paste my material. I am someone who is very interested in Quran sciences. 

14ikk5h.jpg

 

 

2 hours ago, iraqi_shia said:

I noted that you have dodged perhaps the most complete work on this subject which is by Ayatollah Khui, Al-Bayan Fi Tafsir al-Quran. You would be best to read that short book before even writing a single letter on this topic. 

I also noted the complete dodge of problems of your position. Which of the seven haroof are correct, or are they all correct? Good luck with trying to solve that problem.

 

I have read Al Khoei's Al Bayan, brother. I believe all seven are correct. Did you know that Al Khoei says that our current recitation of Hafs from Asim is incorrect? 

 

 

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18 hours ago, submitter71 said:

 

I don't see how engaging in polemics makes me not serious. I am sincere in wanting to spread guidance to Shias in a topic I really care about. My intention is not to score points, if that is what you mean.

If the average Shiachat member cannot properly engage, then maybe more advanced members like yourself can instead. 

Please do not assume that I copy and paste my material. I am someone who is very interested in Quran sciences. 

14ikk5h.jpg

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
السلام عليكم

This is really just being about honest here. You came to a forum and opened a thread on a historical discussion many serious academics take an agnostic position on because of the complex history and contradictory narrations. And despite that you expect your Shiachat average user, many who don't know ʿArabic or have read extensively into the academic English works on this subject, to be able to engage with you seriously here. Either you didn't realize, which makes me question your intelligence, or you did realize and that makes you dishonest. This just shows have you have a lack of respect for the ʾIslāmic sciences and is a prime example of the dishonesty brought on by polemics. .

Assuming those are your books I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that you copy-pasted your quotes from a list which misspelled Hādī Maʿrifaḧ's name, not that you consistently did it yourself, again leading me to question your capabilities.

Anyways, I've said my piece. I have no further interest in these sort of debates, it degrades the ʾIslāmic sciences.

والسلام

Edited by Ibn Al-Ja'abi

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2 hours ago, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

This is really just being about honest here. You came to a forum and opened a thread on a historical discussion many serious academics take an agnostic position on because of the complex history and contradictory narrations. And despite that you expect your Shiachat average user, many who don't know ʿArabic or have read extensively into the academic English works on this subject, to be able to engage with you seriously here. Either you didn't realize, which makes me question your intelligence, or you did realize and that makes you dishonest. This just shows have you have a lack of respect for the ʾIslāmic sciences and is a prime example of the dishonesty brought on by polemics. .

 

I am not convinced by this. If you do not want to participate then you don't have to and you shouldn't be discouraging other Shias from learning about the way the Quran was preserved. 

Both you and I know that the responses so far have been simplistic and non-academic. 

Perhaps you are even aware that it was the collected efforts of the Sahaba, under the leadership of Uthman (ra), that gave us the current mus-haf, and thus we refer to it as the Uthmani khatt. 

Did you ever consider that maybe Ahl Al Sunnah are the preservers of the Thaql Al Akbar? I hope you can look into and do the research if you have not done so already.

 

 

Also, the "F" is right next to the "D", which is why wrote Hafi instead of Hadi. I then copied the quotation without noticing that I made the typo. If you don't believe me, then perhaps you can google the quotations that I have provided. Good luck finding a list like that. 

 

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On 8/9/2016 at 2:33 PM, submitter71 said:

 

This is not a good argument brother because the definition of the term "book" has changed since those times. 

I am sure you are familiar with the Tragedy of Thursday hadith.

The Prophet salalahu alaihi wa salam said:

 ائتوني بكتاب أكتب لكم كتابا

"Bring me a piece of paper so that I can write for you a statement."

According to the common understanding of the term "Kitab" today, we would understand the hadith as "Bring me a book so that I could write for you a book," which makes no sense.

(I am sure every Shia reading this will want to change the topic to Tragedy of Thursday now. If you want to, then please do that in another thread.)

 

So the reference to the Quran as a Kitab does not mean that it was compiled as a whole book during the time of the Prophet salalahu alaihi wa salam.

 

Shia Quran scholar Mohammed Hafi Marifa in Al Tamheed volume 1 page 289 says about this theory, "There is no historical evidence for this claim." 

 

Also, this view is simply illogical, because the Quran kept on getting revealed and verse were put in an order that is not the same as the order of revelation. This would be possible to do on Microsoft Word, but it is extremely not practical for it to be done in the seventh century AD.

Good answer.

 

On 10/9/2016 at 2:49 AM, submitter71 said:

Why are you making this assumption? I am very serious.

 

Naser Makarim Shirazi volume 1 page 72: “The usage of this word (Kitab) doesn’t necessitate that it was fully written, because the name Quran is for used for this book in a full and partial form. Also, a Kitab can more something more general to include what has not yet been written when it was referred to as a Kitab. We read: “(It is) a Book We have revealed to you abounding in good that they may ponder over its verses.” There is no doubt that the Quran was not a book that was documented among people before it was revealed. There is another possible meaning, which is that this is referring to the book in the Preserved Tablet.”

Looks like Naser Makarim Shirazi is not taking the apparent meaning.

I have done some more research to confirm that according to Shia scholars the Quran was not compiled during the Prophet's salalahu alaihi wa salam time. 

 

1- Mohammed Hafi Marifa in Al Tamheed volume 1 page 289 says about the theory that the Quran was collected during the time of the Prophet salalahu alaihi wa salam, "There is no historical evidence for this claim.

 

2- Al Tabtabai said in Tafseer Al Mizan volume 12 page 124: “Secondly, the order of the chapters are from the companions in the first compilation and second compilation, and the evidence is the narration about Uthman putting Al Anfal and Bara’a between Al Aaraf and Yunus, which were put earlier in the first compilation.”

 

3- Murtada Askari in Al Quran Al Kareem wa Riwayat Al Madrasatain volume 2 page 658: “The Messenger salalahu alaihi wa aalih told his cousin Ali to not wear his cloak until he has collected the Quran that was in his house, which was written on papyrus, wood, leather, and other things, and along the verses that were revealed to the Messenger salalahu alaihi wa aalih were meanings which the Messenger salalahu alaihi wa aalih had dictated. So after collecting it, he brought it to the mosque with his servant Qanbar. They said: Return it, we do not need it. So he returned it.”

4- Abd Al Hadi Al Fadli in Al Qiraat Al Quraniya page 126 when speaking about the authentic recitations of the Quran, he said that one of the conditions are that the recitation fits the drawing of the letters. He explains, “The meaning of reciting according to the drawing: Is that it is matching to what was written in the Masahif Al Aima (main Qurans) in the time of Uthman, according to his orders.”

5- Mohammed Al Jalali in Dirasat Hawl Al Quran Al Kareem said on page 146: “Uthman told them to write the Quran in the way of Quraish and this is what happened with the word Taboot and Taboo, due to the difference between Quraish and the Ansar in how the Quran is written, and not in recitation.”  

 


I am hoping that the brothers in this thread will be a bit more open minded now about the Quran not being collected during the time of the Prophet salalahu alaihi wa salam. I am very well aware that the above five quotes don't always agree on who compiled the Quran or what his role was, but I quote this to show that some of the top Shia Quran scholars did not hold the opinion that the Quran that we have today is based upon a collection by the Prophet salalahu alaihi wa salam. 

Inshallah in my next post I will be discussing with brothers that wish to participate what Uthman's (ra) role was. 

Interesting stuff. This just shows how some Shia brothers here are ignorant about the views of their own specialized Scholars, but are over-confident in their claims.

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On 11/9/2016 at 0:16 PM, submitter71 said:

Did you ever consider that maybe Ahl Al Sunnah are the preservers of the Thaql Al Akbar? I hope you can look into and do the research if you have not done so already.

 

Indeed, deep in their heart most of them admit this fact. That is the reason, you find the reactionary theories of Ali compiling Quran and Sahaba rejecting it.

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@AbbaJaan     @submitter71

 

Caliph Umar and you are correct - the Prophet was delusional when he said he is leaving behind the BOOK of Allah. He should have said the words of Allah. Perhaps on the pen/paper he reuqested, he would have written that Caliph Uthman would compile the Quran for all of us.

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21 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

@AbbaJaan     @submitter71

 

Caliph Umar and you are correct - the Prophet was delusional when he said he is leaving behind the BOOK of Allah. He should have said the words of Allah. Perhaps on the pen/paper he reuqested, he would have written that Caliph Uthman would compile the Quran for all of us.

 

Brother, if you do not have an academic response, it is best to not respond at all. I have provided several evidences from your scholars that are specialized in Quranic sciences. I am yet to see an academic reply.

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6 minutes ago, submitter71 said:

Brother, if you do not have an academic response, it is best to not respond at all. I have provided several evidences from your scholars that are specialized in Quranic sciences. I am yet to see an academic reply.

Brohter - I gave you an academic reply much much earlier.

Caliph Uthman organized the Quran into surahs by length. He did no more and no less.

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52 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

Brohter - I gave you an academic reply much much earlier.

Caliph Uthman organized the Quran into surahs by length. He did no more and no less.

 

When he "reorganized" it, do you believe that he burned different copies? Also, do you believe that the copy that he "reorganized" was written by him and his followers? 

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On 9/8/2016 at 2:01 PM, submitter71 said:

The three opinions about are all Shia opinions and I believe are not thought out properly. This is why I would like to discuss these views with my Shia brothers, since they are not aware that Uthman (ra) played a vital role in preserving the Quran.

If Uthman played a role in the preservation of Quran then it means that the leaders of sunni ie early 2 caliphs were unaware of this important task? Why they kept ummah devoid of the book of Allah swt for many years before Uthman did it?

Edited by skamran110

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27 minutes ago, skamran110 said:

If Uthman played a role in the preservation of Quran then it means that the leaders of sunni ie early 2 caliphs were unaware of this important task? Why they kept ummah devoid of the book of Allah swt for many years before Uthman did it?

 

I do apologize if I have caused confusion in this thread. It is evident from your response that I was unclear with what I meant by Uthman's (ra) compilation.

Good questions though.

Sunnis do not believe that the Quran was only compiled in Uthman's (ra) time. We acknowledge that the Quran was compiled by many people before Uthman (ra). Though, we believe that the Quran, in its current form, is Uthman's (ra) compilation. 

Other compilations included additional words as explanations and also included alternative recitations to some verses. Uthman's (ra) compilation limited that, and was used as a tool to determine the authenticity of recitations. 

The scholars of the Quran then put conditions for an acceptable recitation, which include an authentic chain, correct grammar, and that it fits in with Uthman's (ra) Mus-haf. This is the view of the Shia scholar Al Fadhli as I have shown previously. 

It is due to the Mus-haf of Uthman (ra) that the current acceptable recitations, like the common Hafs from Asim was adopted as a standard recitation. Warsh from Nafi is the popular recitation in places like Morocco. It also fits the Mus-haf of Uthman (ra).

I can understand that this could be confusing to Shias, since questions of recitations and the Quran's compilation is not one that is often taught to Shias by their scholars. Please feel free to ask any questions and I will do my best to answer them.

 

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1 hour ago, submitter71 said:

 

When he "reorganized" it, do you believe that he burned different copies? Also, do you believe that the copy that he "reorganized" was written by him and his followers? 

that is the common assumption that the other copies were burnt.

Written by Caliph Uthman - definitely not. By his followers - hopefully they were following Allah, the Prophet and the Quran.

41 minutes ago, submitter71 said:

Other compilations included additional words as explanations and also included alternative recitations to some verses. Uthman's (ra) compilation limited that, and was used as a tool to determine the authenticity of recitations. 

Different recitiations? Do you mean different pronunciations or different words? Different words would be a problem.

42 minutes ago, submitter71 said:

The scholars of the Quran then put conditions for an acceptable recitation, which include an authentic chain, correct grammar, and that it fits in with Uthman's (ra) Mus-haf. This is the view of the Shia scholar Al Fadhli as I have shown previously. 

It is due to the Mus-haf of Uthman (ra) that the current acceptable recitations, like the common Hafs from Asim was adopted as a standard recitation. Warsh from Nafi is the popular recitation in places like Morocco. It also fits the Mus-haf of Uthman (ra).

Weren't these rules established by Imam Ali?

43 minutes ago, submitter71 said:

I can understand that this could be confusing to Shias, since questions of recitations and the Quran's compilation is not one that is often taught to Shias by their scholars. Please feel free to ask any questions and I will do my best to answer them.

Thank you so much. All shias actually learn Quran from Sunnis since even our scholars are not aware of the history of the Quran.

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4 hours ago, submitter71 said:

 

I do apologize if I have caused confusion in this thread. It is evident from your response that I was unclear with what I meant by Uthman's (ra) compilation.

Good questions though.

Sunnis do not believe that the Quran was only compiled in Uthman's (ra) time. We acknowledge that the Quran was compiled by many people before Uthman (ra). Though, we believe that the Quran, in its current form, is Uthman's (ra) compilation. 

Other compilations included additional words as explanations and also included alternative recitations to some verses. Uthman's (ra) compilation limited that, and was used as a tool to determine the authenticity of recitations. 

The scholars of the Quran then put conditions for an acceptable recitation, which include an authentic chain, correct grammar, and that it fits in with Uthman's (ra) Mus-haf. This is the view of the Shia scholar Al Fadhli as I have shown previously. 

It is due to the Mus-haf of Uthman (ra) that the current acceptable recitations, like the common Hafs from Asim was adopted as a standard recitation. Warsh from Nafi is the popular recitation in places like Morocco. It also fits the Mus-haf of Uthman (ra).

I can understand that this could be confusing to Shias, since questions of recitations and the Quran's compilation is not one that is often taught to Shias by their scholars. Please feel free to ask any questions and I will do my best to answer them.

 

Good points.

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4 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Written by Caliph Uthman - definitely not. By his followers - hopefully they were following Allah, the Prophet and the Quran.

Yes. I meant his followers, under his supervision.

 

4 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Different recitiations? Do you mean different pronunciations or different words? Different words would be a problem.

 

Different recitations and words.

 

4 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Weren't these rules established by Imam Ali?

 

No. 

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16 hours ago, submitter71 said:

Good questions though.

Sunnis do not believe that the Quran was only compiled in Uthman's (ra) time. We acknowledge that the Quran was compiled by many people before Uthman (ra). Though, we believe that the Quran, in its current form, is Uthman's (ra) compilation. 

Why the first caliph and his companions rejected the Quran compiled by Imam Ali?

Why the effort of most learned and knowledgeable man after the prophet was not acquired and distributed to the ummah?

And ummah was kept devoid of the quran till Usman distributed it?

 

Edited by skamran110

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Quote

I have read Al Khoei's Al Bayan, brother. I believe all seven are correct. Did you know that Al Khoei says that our current recitation of Hafs from Asim is incorrect? 

Thats very problematic. If they are different, how can they all be correct? 

Secondly, can you show where you think Al Khoei says Hafs is incorrect?

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4 minutes ago, iraqi_shia said:

Thats very problematic. If they are different, how can they all be correct? 

Secondly, can you show where you think Al Khoei says Hafs is incorrect?

 

Here is the book online http://www.shiaweb.org/quran/bayan/

See the chapter أضواء على القراء where he brings opinions of hadith scholars weakening them. He does this with Asim and Hafs. Both can be found here http://www.shiaweb.org/quran/bayan/pa26.html

Finally, he says that these recitations are not reliable because of the weakness of the quraa here http://www.shiaweb.org/quran/bayan/pa33.html and that these recitations are from the ijtihad of the quraa, including Hafs from Asim.

 

The Sunni view is that all of the authentic recitations are from Allah azza wa jal and that they are complimentary of one another and provide additional meanings to the verses. How else can you explain that the Ummah recited both Maliki yawmi al deen and Maaliki yawmi al deen? It is not possible that there could be a mistake in a verse that was recited by the Prophet salalahu alaihi wa salam out loud at least six times a day.  

This view is accepted by Shia scholar Al Fadhli as well. He goes against Al Khoei's conclusions. 

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